14th Amendment

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Time-Immemorial
Since we all know the 14th Amendment was made for black slaves brought here without their choice, to allow their children to be US Citizens.

We know that the framers did not have the intent to allow people who broke the law to come here and reap the legal benefits of its citizens.

The rest of the world does not allow illegal immigrants to come reap the rewards of illegal activity, including Mexico and any other Central American Country.

Its time we Amend the constitution since no one can stick to what it says and make it plainly state you do not get citizenship based on your parents breaking the law.

Flyattractor
We don't need to amend it. We just need to INFORCE it.

Time-Immemorial
True that

Ushgarak
It's already been explained to you that that 'rest of the world' comment is not true. Incidentally, anyone born in Mexico, including to those there illegally, gets Mexican nationality and then citizenship at 18.

Q99
Ah yes, "punish the kids for the parent's actions."

I'm gonna have to stay that's a bad idea. The US has done great with immigration for a good while now, if someone was born here, that alone should not be a reason to toss them out and make them an effectiveless stateless individual, not when most in such circumstance become quite productive citizens.

The fear of immigrants is kinda silly to begin with, the fear of babies born and raised in US culture is ridiculous.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's already been explained to you that that 'rest of the world' comment is not true. Incidentally, anyone born in Mexico, including to those there illegally, gets Mexican nationality and then citizenship at 18.

People don't stick around in Mexico for 18 years to get citizenship, they come to the US laughing

Bardock42
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

Get your Euro-Socialism out of my America

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

"and Subject to the jurisdiction of."

You like to slide over that...

Illegals are not subject to our jurisdiction other then to breaking our laws, which then will be deported.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
"and Subject to the jurisdiction of."

You like to slide over that...

Illegals are not subject to our jurisdiction other then to breaking our laws, which then will be deported.

So you admit that they are subject to the jurisdiction of the US. I guess it applies then.

Time-Immemorial
It does not apply unless you think the framers thought "Gee Law breaking foreigners are now going to be citizens."

Do you get rewarded for breaking the law in Germany?

Bardock42
No. But a child born to parents who immigrated illegally didn't break any laws.

Time-Immemorial
Sins of the father.

What planet do you live on?

They are using the baby to circumvent the law.

Since when did you start caring about babies?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Sins of the father.

What planet do you live on?

They are using the baby to circumvent the law.

Since when did you start caring about babies?

Sins of the father? Are you ****ing kidding? How can you claim to care for the US when you hate everything it stands for? You understand that's what North Korea is doing, yes?

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
Sins of the father? Are you ****ing kidding? How can you claim to care for the US when you hate everything it stands for? You understand that's what North Korea is doing, yes?

I believe in a country based on laws, not changing them based political voting and buying power.

Bardock42
They aren't changed though, your country has always been a country of immigration (much more lax than nowadays). The laws have been clearly that of birthright citizenship since before the twentieth century, heck, your president is required to be born within the countries borders.

Q99
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I believe in a country based on laws, not changing them based political voting and buying power.

You seem to be based on what you *want* them to be, not what they are/have been, and what you want them to be doesn't seem very nice (or helpful to the country) to boot.


Heck, let's break it down, what difference is there between someone born to illegal immigrants and you, in any real practical terms?

They're born in our country, raised in our culture, know our language... they themselves will have broken zero laws and the only one their parents broken is a fairly minor one.... odds are I'm going to get along with them better.... they'll start out poor and have to work their way up, something occasionally known as the "American dream."


This is a country who's mostly descended from immigrants and has large populations of various immigrants. Excuse me for not freaking out for someone doing what tens of millions have done before.

This simply is not a pressing issue in the slightest. Indeed, if we decide for it to not be an issue and change the laws to allow naturalization of the parents, something the majority of Americans are in favor of, it becomes a *total* non issue.

When the majority of people in a democracy are for something that'll probably only help if it happens, we are not exactly talking an existential threat here.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, let's break it down, what difference is there between someone born to illegal immigrants and you, in any real practical terms?

That's easy: his parents were legal citizens.

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's easy: his parents were legal citizens.

I think that's Q99's point. The only difference is this tiny one.

Star428
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I believe in a country based on laws, not changing them based political voting and buying power.




Exactly. The United States is a republic, afterall, which is ruled by law (the Constitution). IT's not a democracy like everyone stupidly thinks.

Robtard
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

It doesn't state "Born to American citizens", it just says "born". Why can't people respect the Constitution.

Time-Immemorial
You are not respecting the people who wrote it at the time, they would be turning in their graves if they saw what was happening.

Robtard
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You are not respecting the people who wrote it at the time, they would be turning in their graves if they saw what was happening.

It says "All persons born", not "All persons born except Mexicans born to undocumented immigrants". So I am fact am being respectful of the Constitution; you're the one being disrespectful of the framers and trying to imply that they meant something else.

Did you go back in time and ask them? Are you a wizard or something?

Edit: If you want to push for an Amendment that targets Mexicans sure, an Amendment is the way to go. Not your claims of knowing what the framers meant.

Time-Immemorial
Its not Mexicans, don't you know this, do you know all the people coming up from Guatemala, and Central America? No one wants to settle in Mexico. They come here.


You don't have any rebuttal to breaking the law and then it being ok.

Robtard
Yet "Mexicans" is often the word used and the target.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, - Emma Lazarus

Children born to undocumented workers didn't break any laws. Which is what we're talking about. You to want to deny them citizenship, despite the Constitution specifically granting it to them.

Time-Immemorial
I don't want to deny them, I want to know who is coming into the country, legally.

Quit making this so simple.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
I think that's Q99's point. The only difference is this tiny one.

To you this is a tiny difference. For some, it is a huge difference. I think you know this.

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
To you this is a tiny difference. For some, it is a huge difference. I think you know this.

And I think you know that what I said is what Q99 meant.

Robtard
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I don't want to deny them, I want to know who is coming into the country, legally.

Quit making this so simple.

My error, you just want to throw their parents and by extension them out too.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
And I think you know that what I said is what Q99 meant.

Oh, so when you said this:

Originally posted by Bardock42
The only difference is this tiny one.


You were just paraphrasing Q99 and that is not your actual position?

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, so when you said this:




You were just paraphrasing Q99 and that is not your actual position?

Yes, at the time I was saying that I believe it was Q99's point that this is the only (in his estimation) tiny difference, and not an important one. I do, coincidentally, also agree that it is a tiny difference, and, like you said, I am aware that others think it is a big difference, but that was beyond the scope of my post, which, again, was paraphrasing Q99.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, at the time I was saying that I believe it was Q99's point that this is the only (in his estimation) tiny difference, and not an important one. I do, coincidentally, also agree that it is a tiny difference, and, like you said, I am aware that others think it is a big difference, but that was beyond the scope of my post, which, again, was paraphrasing Q99.

So what was the point of trying to distance yourself from the content of your post (by implying it was a paraphrase of Q99's position rather than a portrayal of your own) and then marrying right back up to it, right here?

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
So what was the point of trying to distance yourself from the content of your post (by implying it was a paraphrase of Q99's position rather than a portrayal of your own) and then marrying right back up to it, right here?

To clarify the reason why I posted what I posted, rather than a more complete discussion of my stance and my understanding of others' stances within the debate.

Surtur
I like how some people have to go through a process just to become a legal citizen here, but others can just be legal by being popped out of a vagina belonging to an illegal.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Surtur
I like how some people have to go through a process just to become a legal citizen here, but others can just be legal by being popped out of a vagina belonging to an illegal.

Or popped out of a vagina belonging to a citizen. I agree with you. Citizens are made, not born! I think everyone, regardless of birth, should show that they are citizen material, like you and TI, you should all take a test to see if the US needs you, and if not, well, maybe Mexico takes you, but otherwise I guess it's the Pacific ocean.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
Or popped out of a vagina belonging to a citizen. I agree with you. Citizens are made, not born! I think everyone, regardless of birth, should show that they are citizen material, like you and TI, you should all take a test to see if the US needs you, and if not, well, maybe Mexico takes you, but otherwise I guess it's the Pacific ocean.

Who the fck are you btw? Some wanna be American?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Who the fck are you btw? Some wanna be American?

Yes, exactly.

Robtard
I'm considering same-sex-marrying B42, so he can become an American citizen in a short amount of time.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, exactly.

You know wanna bee's opinions mean literally nothing. You can't even get your own country in order.

Get your house in order before you want to fix ours.

Van Hohenheim
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Since we all know the 14th Amendment was made for black slaves brought here without their choice, to allow their children to be US Citizens.

We know that the framers did not have the intent to allow people who broke the law to come here and reap the legal benefits of its citizens.

The rest of the world does not allow illegal immigrants to come reap the rewards of illegal activity, including Mexico and any other Central American Country.

Its time we Amend the constitution since no one can stick to what it says and make it plainly state you do not get citizenship based on your parents breaking the law.

Let's use your standards, mkay.

Your argument is that the 14th Amendment is specifically designed for black people because they were forcefully brought to the USA.

Going by this logic, then the 14th Amendment should also apply to Mexicans, since much of what is the USA now was once Mexicos. And people had to leave and or not be owners of their own land without choice.

This just begs the question then, who can stay in the USA and be legal?

Anyways, you're so predictable. I made a reference to this a few days ago (which you ignored in that thread) now you're mentioning it

Star428
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Who the fck are you btw? Some wanna be American?



Yeah, LOL. Like I said before, he's clueless. "Citizenship isn't born. It's made". laughing out loud Just when I think he couldn't say something more stupid than stuff he has said in other threads recently, he tops it with that silly statement. LMAO. I guess he overlooked the fact that u served this country honorably. He thinks thugs who burn towns down/attack cops and illegal immigrants have more rights to American citizenship than our country's heroes. He has some ****ing nerve saying you should have to take a test to see if you're citizenship material when you've already served your country which is more than I can say for most of the snobs here who claim they're American when they don't even believe in protecting our unalienable Constitutional rights. He's starting to irritate me. May have to make room for him on my ignore list.

Star428
Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
Let's use your standards, mkay.

Your argument is that the 14th Amendment is specifically designed for black people because they were forcefully brought to the USA.

Going by this logic, then the 14th Amendment should also apply to Mexicans, since much of what is the USA now was once Mexicos. And people had to leave and or not be owners of their own land without choice.

This just begs the question then, who can stay in the USA and be legal?


roll eyes (sarcastic)

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Star428
roll eyes (sarcastic)


Wow....This stupid post doesn't even warrant a reply.

Troll's gonna troll.

snowdragon
Great let the kids stay, give them over to the state and kick the parents out or kick them all out and let the kids choose citizenship when they turn 18.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You know wanna bee's opinions mean literally nothing. You can't even get your own country in order.

Get your house in order before you want to fix ours.

Eh, Germany is doing pretty well.

Originally posted by Star428
May have to make room for him on my ignore list.

You would do that for me? It would be an honour.




At any rate, the 14th Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to grant birthright citizenship to children of immigrants for over 120 years. The Unites States in the past have dealt, and ultimately embraced, the demographic changes that immigration has brought (English, French, German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, ...), it is pathetic that so many right wingers now want to deny this beautiful and rich heritage of their country.

Q99
Originally posted by Bardock42

At any rate, the 14th Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to grant birthright citizenship to children of immigrants for over 120 years. The Unites States in the past have dealt, and ultimately embraced, the demographic changes that immigration has brought (English, French, German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, ...), it is pathetic that so many right wingers now want to deny this beautiful and rich heritage of their country.


It is an interesting moment when you sit up and realize, your opponents are literally afraid of babies.

Jmanghan
...You're a 14th ****ing amendment...

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
To clarify the reason why I posted what I posted, rather than a more complete discussion of my stance and my understanding of others' stances within the debate.

But don't you think that my original interpretation of your post implies that both are understood?

1. Because you directly stated "...Q99's point..."
2. And you also added your own little tidbit about it being "tiny" which Q99 never stated or directly implied (rather, the implicit meaning that could be obtained from Q99's point was that there was no difference, at all so perhaps you didn't quite understand Q99's point?). This implies it is your point (the "tiny" part) and you're supplementing your idea of this being Q99's point in addition to adding your own opinion with your adjective "tiny." For normal people, this is called agreeing with someone's opinion.

Let me make it clear that this round about game you just played was unnecessary because my original interpretation was exactly your position.

Seems this was just another word game. An unnecessary exercise that you know how to trick me into playing. Sometimes, I don't fall for it. Sometimes, I do. I fell for it, this time.

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
But don't you think that my original interpretation of your post implies that both are understood?

1. Because you directly stated "...Q99's point..."
2. And you also added your own little tidbit about it being "tiny" which Q99 never stated or directly implied (rather, the implicit meaning that could be obtained from Q99's point was that there was no difference, at all so perhaps you didn't quite understand Q99's point?). This implies it is your point (the "tiny" part) and you're supplementing your idea of this being Q99's point in addition to adding your own opinion with your adjective "tiny." For normal people, this is called agreeing with someone's opinion.

Let me make it clear that this round about game you just played was unnecessary because my original interpretation was exactly your position.

Seems this was just another word game. An unnecessary exercise that you know how to trick me into playing. Sometimes, I don't fall for it. Sometimes, I do. I fell for it, this time.

Okay.....victory...yay?

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42

At any rate, the 14th Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to grant birthright citizenship to children of immigrants for over 120 years. The Unites States in the past have dealt, and ultimately embraced, the demographic changes that immigration has brought (English, French, German, Irish, Italian, Chinese, ...), it is pathetic that so many right wingers now want to deny this beautiful and rich heritage of their country.

It's like they hate America and everything she stands for and has stood proudly for.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay.....victory...yay?

Yeah, you won the moment I clicked reply to your comment. But I was unaware this was about winning.

And, yes, I am aware that you are implying that I think I won "the game." No, I only understood why I lost.

Bardock42
I'm implying there is no game, and it's weird that you think there is...

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm implying there is no game, and it's weird that you think there is...

This is another game. But it is meta, now. Now it is a game about whether or not you play word games. The bet course of action is to not play.

Robtard
Game Inception?

Bardock42
Originally posted by dadudemon
This is another game. But it is meta, now. Now it is a game about whether or not you play word games. The bet course of action is to not play. Okay, I guess that's what you are going to do then...


Back on topic, I think the outrage over illegal immigration is a classic example of politicians finding scapegoats. Illegal immigration is really not a problem at all, in fact it is a positive for the country, yet people are easy to rile up against any "other" group...

Omega Vision
I think race and language play a big part of it. I don't know how enraged conservatives would be if we had a similar scale problem with Canadian illegals.

It's xyz!
Originally posted by Bardock42
They aren't changed though, your country has always been a country of immigration (much more lax than nowadays). The laws have been clearly that of birthright citizenship since before the twentieth century, heck, your president is required to be born within the countries borders. that true. McCain and Obama were born in US land but grew up somewhere else.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Bardock42
Eh, Germany is doing pretty well.



Germany is not doing well on immigration, they don't let anyone become citizens based on illegal immigration, much less any other type, are you in a dream world?

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