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Setting: Geonosis Arena

No amp/prep time.

Who wins?

Control over midichlorians >>> gigadrain. Plagueis solos

Nah, Nihilus takes this.

Originally posted by McP
Control over midichlorians >>> gigadrain. Plagueis solos

Since we're entering the realm of gross speculation with the notion that Nihilus could leech a Force user of the caliber of Krayt/Plagueis at all, let alone without preparation, perhaps one might suggest that Plagueis could simply eliminate Bane and Nihilus by commanding their midi-chlorians to disperse a la Veruna?

Yep. Nihilus never faced someone as strong as Plagueis. He needed Sion as a distraction against Traya. None of his enemies ware at least on the pre-prime Revan level.

If Nihilus can drain a planet of force sensitives and a hundred Jedi at once, he can drain Plagueis, lol.

Just like he Drained Mandalore?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just like he Drained Mandalore?

Why would he drain mandalore? Guys got nothing in him Nihilus wanted. He tried to drain Meetra cuz she's a Jedi and got the shits from it.

Maybe because guy was trying to kill him. Or hell, since he's so uber powerful and it's so uber effortless, why not quickly drain Taris and win the fight instead of getting his getting his ass kicked and dying?

Sounds like a great idea when the Exile is standing in front of the dude and he just got shafted for trying that. He was greatly weakened and in a close quarters fight and he still beat everyones ass until Visas weakened him again.

But no bro you got me Nihilus is a sham he can't drain anyone

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, Nihilus takes this.

Even though this is wrong, at least he acknowledged by omission that Bane would die to either of team 2.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sounds like a great idea when the Exile is standing in front of the dude and he just got shafted for trying that. He was greatly weakened and in a close quarters fight and he still beat everyones ass until Visas weakened him again.

But no bro you got me Nihilus is a sham he can't drain anyone

So the Exile standing in front of him was a reason not to drain... but apparently she's not that much of a threat because he was still winning... sounds like you need to make your mind up?

The Exile makes it too dangerous to try his drain, duh. If it hits her he gets fvcked again. Visas probably does too since she's bonded to him and he doesn't want to kill her. So he's being attacked in close range by two people he can't use it on. Nihilus is a being of instinct, if he got burned by something he's not going to turn around and try it again.

Mandalore is the least threatening combatant anyway, I doubt Nihilus would strain himself looking for a way to drain him for no benefit. Guess what, as a non-force sensitive he can be killed by any Force attack, but it's not like him surviving proves Nihilus can't use the force any more than Revan not snapping Cipher 9's neck proves Revan can't do TK.

Uh huh. So the guy who can allegedly spare Visas from a planetary drain of mass chaos can't use his drain on Taris because the Exile is standing in front of him and he can't avoid hitting her or Visas but he's still powerful enough to, quote you, beat "everyones ass" except when he can't.

It's amusing to watch you flounder so helplessly.

I edited.

Nihilus wasn't fighting 3 people at once in CQC at Katarr. I've pointed out solid reasons why Mandalore wasn't drained, your nitpicks achieve nothing. Mandalore was ultimately a non-force sensitive who's therefore a nonfactor for Nihilus' drain in the midst of combat. The fight takes place in gameplay, shit happens. And I'm not telling you he could still beat them, he does and then Visas weakens him.

It's pathetic how you strain to try and bother me, over and over again. Get a life, Jessy.

What's pathetic is how effortlessly I succeed. To be able to drive you to such epic desperation.

http://37.media.tumblr.com/c7f7e1585178833ccb033d63461903c2/tumblr_n2kscqqtzH1trmkp7o1_500.gif

I am truly powerful.

So to recap: Nihilus has epic power and control and can wield this shit effortlessly, but suffers from crippling performance anxiety when fighting 3 people {one of them being, as you so graciously put it, a "non-factor"}, even though he can beat their asses.

Makes a lot of sense!

lol

Plagueis and Krayt take this.

Team 2 everytime. Bane is outclassed and lmfao @ that Jafar gif

I think that Traya's ease of draining the Jedi Council on Dantooine is evidence in favor of N.'s ability to drain the people here. In the TSLRP version, Traya was able to drain the masters even after being identified as Sith; they weren't exactly taken off guard. So we have evidence of drain in the face of numerical advantage and raised "defenses."

But why wouldn't N. simply drain the raiding party? Tobin answers that in one of the few areas where he is an in-universe expert: interpersonal relations with Darth N. Tobin describes N.'s perspective as one that encompasses planets, with little attention to spare for the actual running of the ship by individuals. This suggests that N simply doesn't care about individual, non-force sensitive agents. Notably, N. does attempt a drain on the Exile, which backfires (for well-established reasons). Now injured, he faces his apprentice (who he doesn't want to kill) who is bonded incidentally to a Jedi who cannot be drained. The non-Force Sensitive barely factors into the equation, but various dialogues with Kreia suggest that Canderous was also bonded to the Exile. Thus there is ample evidence that N.'s perspective does not allow for a great deal of concern about Canderous, as well as an in-universe reason to avoid trying to drain him anyway.

A final addendum: draining Telos was explicitly going to weaken, not strengthen big N. He was expecting a feast and would instead get a depopulated world with a single now-dead Jedi Sith Atris. The whole Onderon plotline is a gambit to get N. to overextend, luring him into the open without a populated world or cluster of Force users to feed upon. N. was to be at his weakest even if he launched a drain at Telos.



For the matchup itself, have we seen Plagueis weaponize midichlorians in combat at all? Against opponents with active Force connections? Against users of Bane's caliber? Against wounds in the Force? (I think that last point has textual evidence that N.'s connection is fundamentally different, metaphysically if not biologically, from others. The Jedi Council doesn't sense a restoration of the Exile's connection, just the bonds to many other users. Instead of one connection that needs to be severed, Plagueis would need to sever or manipulate the echo of more than a billion lives interacting through N.'s body...)

He did a good job, but not convinced yet.

Zamp, for some reason I'm still unable to quote your posts. What's up with that?



mmm

Idn't that cut content?



I question Tobin's alleged expertise... since Nihilus cares enough about Mandalore to stun him.



You haven't established that Nihilus would be aware of such a connection between the Exile and Canderous, let alone that he'd have reason to fear it.



Yeah, but I recall dialogue indicating that Nihilus would have indeed drained Telos as a last resort option. Clearly not the buffet he expected, but better than absolute starvation altogether.



Plagueis doesn't sever or manipulate echoes; he manipulates the literal cellular structures themselves. Your questions as to whether or not he could successfully employ the technique in combat against another Sith Lord are legitimate... but are no different from my similar questions about Nihilus's ability to employ his drain against a prepared Force user of sufficient caliber in the midst of battle.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Plagueis doesn't sever or manipulate echoes; he manipulates the literal cellular structures themselves. Your questions as to whether or not he could successfully employ the technique in combat against another Sith Lord are legitimate... but are no different from my similar questions about Nihilus's ability to employ his drain against a prepared Force user of sufficient caliber in the midst of battle.
Are you serious?

Even Abeloth wasn't immune to Force Drain powers. When she clashed with the duo of Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt on a supposedly favorable setting, a single factor proved to be instrument in her defeat. Guess what?

Force Drain powers (unleashed on her by Darth Krayt).

Darth Nihilus is one of the most dangerous beings to ever grace the galaxy and he eclipses majority in his command of Force Drain powers. Only Vitiate rivals him in this department.

The question that you should be asking is how long Darth Plagueis would last if subjected to one of the most potent expressions of Force Drain powers. I am afraid that you may not like the answer.

Nihilus doesn't have cells, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus doesn't have cells, lol.

Visas says Nihilus was just a man tbh.

No, Darth Nihilus was a little more then a living intention. With passage of time, his body disintegrated under pressure from ravaging effects of his extreme hunger.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Visas says Nihilus was just a man tbh.

Metaphorically.

"Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention."

Krayt also asks Nihilus' holocron how he managed this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Metaphorically.

wait wut

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention."

Krayt also asks Nihilus' holocron how he managed this.

I'm aware lol. It's in the Encyclopedia, KOTOR Campaign Guide, etc.

Metaphorically as in he's just a man and dies just like any man and not the dark god she'd feared him as.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Metaphorically as in he's just a man and dies just like any man and not the dark god she'd feared him as.

But he's like not even in the ballpark of mandom.

mmm

Seems like a clumsy "metaphor" to me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Zamp, for some reason I'm still unable to quote your posts. What's up with that?



mmm

heh.



I specifically mentioned that I'd played a modded version, but even in the original release the 3 masters were amping up a sever-attack on the Exile. They actually use Stasis on her. Then Kreia knocks them down to the ground. Then she knocks Vrook down a second time. She gets 2 more sentences out, Kavar talks to her, and Vrook whines, Zez Kai draws a Blade, and so does Kavar. Kreia preaches more, then declares she's about to attack, and then she uses the drain. They were as prepared as they were ever going to be:

Kreia enters at 8:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6f55ZlHN4




ok but this is begging the question. You are assuming that N. deliberately stunned Canderous in particular and that this somehow nullifies my conclusion about Tobin's knowledge of N.'s perspective. In fact, Tobin is an expert witness because N.'s perspective on personal conflict was a specific cause of the rebellion's failure on Onderon. Then Tobin got several (months? weeks?) of exposure to N.'s day to day management style, which is borne out by Visas's commentary about how the party's presence on the Ravager:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cGKD3_Xp0I&index=143&list=PL48C18CA91F0AD67D
5:17: "II do not believe he knows his ship has been boarded... and if he did, he would not care."

Note that this is coming from Visas, the long-time apprentice of N. and the character who most closely approximates N.'s perspective and powers of sight. (c.f. claims that he made her see etc.)

N.'s stun of the Party attacking him is easily interpreted as an area of attack, or even a side-effect of a Planetary/Galaxy level operator turning his attention to three individuals. Mandalore would hardly be expected to weather that kind of telepathic assault.



Everybody on the Jedi council was able to see such connections between the Exile and her companions. Kreia sought out the exile because of this trait, despite only having the slimmest of opportunities to meet in the past. Visas comments on the way that the Exile is bonded to her followers. N. senses the galaxy through exactly these sorts of "bonds" (albeit in aggregate). It strikes me as a contradiction of the highest order for you to maintain simultaneously that N. can sense and target Mandalore individually and that N. can not detect a force-bond with the exile.



This does not undermine my point. The reason Telos was a good target was that feeding on it would give him a negligible boost (if any) and that it would bring him within striking range of Kreia's student. She even arranges for the only Jedi to already be dead. (I have carefully refrained from saying that the act of feeding on Telos would actually harm N., although I think that would be an exciting implication of the xanatos gambit that Kreia set up here.)




Right, so leaving aside Neph's very helpful assertion that N. doesn't have cells, I'd like to answer this within the context of my previous talk about the Exile's force connection. It is made clear by the council on Dantooine, as well as Vrook individually, that the Exile's burgeoning combat and Force capacity does not derive from her own manipulation of the Force. Rather, those two conversations both make explicit that the Jedi proper "do not sense" that the Exile's connection has returned. Evidence:

Vrook: at minute 5:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrahLxLBqS8&index=25&list=PL943A526A0C33CE50

From the Enclave, Kavar says that the Sith assassins use a technique to get stronger near Force Users, and then Vrook says you they learned that from you; your ability to make those bonds (to then draw upon) is why you in particular are a danger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6f55ZlHN4
7:00 minute (+35 seconds or so)

So let's recap: N.'s ability relies on Force Bonds which he then severs. Somehow he grows more powerful in proportion to the number of such severings conducted. Like the Exile, this power grows by exposure to other beings, whose connections involve midichlorians. That is, the limiting factor on N.'s power is not his own midichlorians, but rather his exposure to the midichlorians of others. This suggests that Plagueis's manipulation of N.'s midichlorians (if they exist) is not sufficient to manipulate the sum total of N.'s connection to the force.

Thus I think that there is a stronger basis for denying Midichlorian shenanigans against N. specifically than there is for denying Force Power shenanigans against any given powerful character.

Visas refers to what she sees "behind the mask" - you can either have the graveyard world response or "a man, nothing more". I doubt it refers to Nihilus as a literal, physical man - more of just his origin/his previous identity before becoming the Dark Lord.

Anyway, why is Midichlorian manipulation such a big discussion here? I doubt it works on Nihilus and I equally doubt that Plagueis would even attempt it here. He wouldn't afford the time and attention required for it, not to mention Nihilus isn't even a cellular Force-user anymore.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Visas refers to what she sees "behind the mask" - you can either have the graveyard world response or "a man, nothing more". I doubt it refers to Nihilus as a literal, physical man - more of just his origin/his previous identity before becoming the Dark Lord.

Anyway, why is Midichlorian manipulation such a big discussion here? I doubt it works on Nihilus and I equally doubt that Plagueis would even attempt it here. He wouldn't afford the time and attention required for it, not to mention Nihilus isn't even a cellular Force-user anymore. Agreed.

Is it win via incapacitation? Meaning no res?

Nihilus solos everyone simultaneously

Nihilus can't Drain all at once. When he attempted to Drain the Exile, Mandalore wasn't affected. The events on Katarr are dubious at best and there's implications that it's more than just Nihilus' Drain, but the point is that if he targeted either Krayt or Plagueis for Drain here, the other would blitz him (that's assuming Plagueis doesn't blitz him already).

And Orbalisk Bane is just out of his depth. He gets cooked by Lightning in his armor.

Plagueis and Krayts lightning isn't that great though.

How is it not, lol? Krayt's Lightning was killing swarms of Rakghouls and Vong before he received his rather considerable amplification. Plagueis set fire to a landscape, IIRC.

And he knows Shatterpoint, which could help him even outside of Lightning.

Plaguies's dark side energies were so potent that it threw Naboo into a frozen climate. His death released a shockwave that shook Coruscant to its core. He's pretty strong. I dunno much about Krayt.