Vitiate vs. Dooku, Maul and Mace

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Stigma
* Novel Vitiate
* SoD Maul
* RotS Mace
* RotS Dooku


Setting: Theed Royal Palace, Naboo.

No amp/prep time.

Who wins?

DarthAnt66
Vitiate probably solos this crew. Revan mops up the leftovers.

EmperorSidious2
Maul is a weak link. He's not powerful enough to help dooku and mace.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate probably solos this crew. Revan mops up the leftovers.

Novel! Vitiate?

DarthAnt66
thumb up Maul will probably be KO'd instantly with his TP or lightning. Mace and Dooku don't stand a chance against a more powerful duo.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
thumb up Maul will probably be KO'd instantly with his TP or lightning. Mace and Dooku don't stand a chance against a more powerful duo.

Forget Revan in this. Vitiate can "probably," solo? http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

Stigma
What if we remove Revan from the fight, can Novel Vitiate pull this off?

DarthAnt66
Depends on how big of a distance is between the combatants, tbh.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Same distance as with Revan tbh

Lord Stark
Dooku and Mace are on Revan's level although a bit below and is far more powerful than Novel!Meetra and Scourge. That trio were able to seriously threaten Vitiate, this team will win.

Nephthys
Revan has some of the best defenses of any fighter though. His tutaminis is arguably the best, his mental defenses are immense and he had special prep against Vitiate and his TK is better than Mace or Dooku's.

Dooku couldn't replicate Revan's fight. Mace could repel Vitiate's lightning through Vapaad probably, but not Vitiates other attacks....

Stigma
He also had teammates who are inferior to Maul/Mace/Dooku.

Nephthys
But ones who were taught to block his telepathy. Vitiate could make this a 2 on 2 or more off the bat.

S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate converts opponents into allies /thread.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan has some of the best defenses of any fighter though. His tutaminis is arguably the best, his mental defenses are immense and he had special prep against Vitiate and his TK is better than Mace or Dooku's.

Dooku couldn't replicate Revan's fight. Mace could repel Vitiate's lightning through Vapaad probably, but not Vitiates other attacks....

Here's the thing, let's say this situation unfurls the same way it does in the novel.

Mace bats his lightning aside and puts Vitiate on his ass. He force storms and Mace gets overloaded (unlikely...but still). Vitiate moves to kill Mace, and Maul or Dooku throw a lightsaber. The difference between them and Meetra is that they'd easily sacrifice Mace to kill Vitiate.

Dooku and Mace alone could win against Vitiate imo, Maul in the mix makes this a solid victory against him, if not a stomp.

Nephthys
You forgot the first exchange, where the telepathy comes into play. I'd say no-one here has the chops to resist. If it unfurled like it did in the novel, it'd end up Vitiate and Mace vs Dooku and Maul.

Raptor22
Against the Revan squad Vitiate had guards there and never fought all three at once. He doesn't have that luxury here and dies alone.

Sinious
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Here's the thing, let's say this situation unfurls the same way it does in the novel.

Mace bats his lightning aside and puts Vitiate on his ass. He force storms and Mace gets overloaded (unlikely...but still). Vitiate moves to kill Mace, and Maul or Dooku throw a lightsaber. The difference between them and Meetra is that they'd easily sacrifice Mace to kill Vitiate.

Dooku and Mace alone could win against Vitiate imo, Maul in the mix makes this a solid victory against him, if not a stomp. Exactly what Neph said. thumb up

The only thing that gave Revan a chance to harm Vitiate was the unexpected resistance Revan showed against Vitiate's TP which was possible only because he was prepared for it. If Vitiate chooses the engage them the same way he did to Revan, he will break at least one of them and stall the others with the same attack as they will still be assaulted by his TP as well and it should stall them enough for Vitiate to turn one of them into his slave. After that point, they don't stand a chance.

The_Tempest
wtf is this Vitiate totally stomps these clowns like he did to a weaker team in the book

psmith81992
Originally posted by The_Tempest
wtf is this Vitiate totally stomps these clowns like he did to a weaker team in the book

stronger*

McP
Both, Dooku and Mace are comperable (or a bit superior) to Revan. Also, Mace and Dooku would give Sidious hell on their own. They would beeat Vitiate who is inferior to Sidious, and adding Maul only tips the scale. Team every single time.

EmperorSidious2
By removing Revan the team wins.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan has some of the best defenses of any fighter though. His tutaminis is arguably the best, his mental defenses are immense and he had special prep against Vitiate and his TK is better than Mace or Dooku's.

Dooku couldn't replicate Revan's fight. Mace could repel Vitiate's lightning through Vapaad probably, but not Vitiates other attacks....

Revan's TK is better? Sorry just curios. Also one aside from breaking through Satele Shan and crews defenses plox.

Syndicate
Also I'd say the team takes this easily if it's against novel Vitiate.

Sinious
I'm still not seeing any explanation on how the team will survive the TP attack. This is a team that can challenge even the strongest Jedi under right circumstances but its a heavily melee oriented one which is not a very efficient feature in this case since the tricky part is closing the gap.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Sinious
I'm still not seeing any explanation on how the team will survive the TP attack. This is a team that can challenge even the strongest Jedi under right circumstances but its a heavily melee oriented one which is not a very efficient feature in this case since the tricky part is to close the gap.

I don't remember Vitiate attempting a TP assault on Revan, Meetra or Scourge in the book so why would he here?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Syndicate
I don't remember Vitiate attempting a TP assault on Revan, Meetra or Scourge in the book so why would he here?

He attempted it on Revan, but since Revan had prior knowledge of the attack he was able to find a way around it and knock Vitiate on his ass.

Syndicate
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He attempted it on Revan, but since Revan had prior knowledge of the attack he was able to find a way around it and knock Vitiate on his ass.

Ah well none of the combatants have TP resistance feats that I am aware of. Depending on how quickly Vitiate can assault the team with TP will decide the fight. How much time did Revan have to stop the assault? And what is the starting distance between Vitiate and the team?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Syndicate
Ah well none of the combatants have TP resistance feats that I am aware of. Depending on how quickly Vitiate can assault the team with TP will decide the fight. How much time did Revan have to stop the assault? And what is the starting distance between Vitiate and the team?

There was no specified time in which Revan had to stop the assault, though it was made evident that Revan couldn't directly over power the assault, i.e. through sheer force of will.

Though Revan ended up doing that against Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years anyways.

Syndicate
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There was no specified time in which Revan had to stop the assault, though it was made evident that Revan couldn't directly over power the assault, i.e. through sheer force of will.

Though Revan ended up doing that against Vitiate and the Dread Masters for 300 years anyways.

But I meant how did he stop the assault? I was going to attempt to estimate the time his attack took and use that as a minimum time scale for how long it would take Vitiate to enact his telepathic assault. Along with that are we aware of the starting distance between the combatants?

Sinious
Originally posted by Syndicate
I don't remember Vitiate attempting a TP assault on Revan, Meetra or Scourge in the book so why would he here? Vitiate tried it only on Revan because the others weren't even engaging Vitiate with Revan as they were fighting the guards. The novel makes it clear that the only way for Scourge and Meetra to face Vitiate was learning Revan's defense against Vitiate's TP attack. Vitiate had already overwhelmed Scourge's mind in the novel even without sending a TP attack. He merely exposed his dark nature to Scourge and it was enough.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Syndicate
But I meant how did he stop the assault? I was going to attempt to estimate the time his attack took and use that as a minimum time scale for how long it would take Vitiate to enact his telepathic assault. Along with that are we aware of the starting distance between the combatants?

Don't have quote on hand, so summary: Vitiate starts to TP Revan; Revan gathers/opens himself up to the light and dark sides of the force. Revan releases the energy in the form of a blast that knocks Vitiate on his ass.

Syndicate
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Don't have quote on hand, so summary: Vitiate starts to TP Revan; Revan gathers/opens himself up to the light and dark sides of the force. Revan releases the energy in the form of a blast that knocks Vitiate on his ass.

Ah so there's probably no specific amount of time we can estimate. Along with the fact that we don't know how far apart the opposing teams are. Oh well. Anyways if the team can avoid getting mind raped by Vitiate they stomp.

DarthAnt66
"As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor. His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.

Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time. The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward.

He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt if dark side lightning at his enemy.

Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.

The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.

It struck the Emperor in its chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith's emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate.The sound sent shivers down Revan's spine."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
they stomp.
...

Even if they do win, it's not a stomp.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
...

Even if they do win, it's not a stomp.

Mace dueled evenly with Dooku somebody who was able to hold off Yoda for a time. Dooku as mentioned above has held off Yoda for a time. Maul has dueled with Grievous evenly and has managed to hold his own against Sidious for a time though it's debatable if Sidious was simply toying with him. I'd still say they stomp if they force Vitiate to pull out his blade.

DarthAnt66
Vitiate doesn't even have a blade at this point.

There won't be a lightsaber battle. erm

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate doesn't even have a blade at this point.

There won't be a lightsaber battle. erm

Oh then mega stomp.

AncientPower
Lightsaber skill is irrelevant here, Vitiate has the TP prowess to dominate all three.

Syndicate
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lightsaber skill is irrelevant here, Vitiate has the TP prowess to dominate all three.

And if he does then we know who the victor here is as the 3 combatants have no TP resistance feats ( that I know of ). But obviously this can be countered as Revan did so in the novel. We just need to know their starting distance and how long it took Revan to employ his counter. Since that knowledge is currently unavailable to us we have to put the debate of TP and counters aside until further information makes itself known to us.

Now I'm simply stating that if the team were to counter Vitiate's TP they would stomp.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
Oh then mega stomp.
Even assuming the team gets through his TP, which is unlikely, they have to get through his lightning, which is unlikely, and then his TK, which is unlikely.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Even assuming the team gets through his TP, which is unlikely, they have to get through his lightning, which is unlikely, and then his TK, which is unlikely.

They all have greater force feats then Scourge, Meetra and debatably Revan ( as portrayed in the novel ) by their primes and Maul is the only one who is unable to block lightning.

AncientPower
Lol wtf? Dooku, Mace and Maul aren't even on Revan's tier, neither do they eclipse Meetra for that matter.

Vixas
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol wtf? Dooku, Mace and Maul aren't even on Revan's tier, neither do they eclipse Meetra for that matter.

Yes, Dooku is the closest of the three to Revan and... well. It leaves more to be desired.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol wtf? Dooku, Mace and Maul aren't even on Revan's tier, neither do they eclipse Meetra for that matter.

http://i.imgur.com/89pDr2F.jpg

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
They all have greater force feats than debatably Revan ( as portrayed in the novel ) by their primes and Maul is the only one who is unable to block lightning.
...
.....
........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c&t=0m04s

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Dooku, Mace and Maul either do they eclipse Meetra for that matter.

Yeah, they do

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
Yeah, they do

In which dimension? Infinities? They are quite likely better duelists but they aren't superior by any significant margin to her in terms of the Force. She's tanked lightning that Dooku can't surpass outside of his amped Dark Rendezvous feats.

Syndicate
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol wtf? Dooku, Mace and Maul aren't even on Revan's tier, neither do they eclipse Meetra for that matter.

I don't see what feats Meetra has that places her on their level.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
In which dimension? Infinities? They are quite likely better duelists but they aren't superior by any significant margin to her in terms of the Force. She's tanked lightning that Dooku can't surpass outside of his amped Dark Rendezvous feats.

In beating the most skilled duelists of all time as opposed to fodder like Darth Traya, Sion, and featless Sith? She doesn't have any force feats surpassing Dooku, and she's a joke as a duelist compared to Kenobi, Maul, Anakin, etc. Sorry you can't accept that

AncientPower
Tanking an amped Nyriss' FL with barrier whilst hindered by an extremely powerful DS nexus comes to mind.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Vixas
Yes, Dooku is the closest of the three to Revan and... well. It leaves more to be desired.

By this point Revan's only feats are mediocre TK feats and redirecting Nyriss's lightning. Impressive if you count that as him using force lightning but I'm still debating whether it should count a tutaminis and redirection feat or a feat of force lightning for Revan since he did not create the lightning itself with his own power.

Vixas
Originally posted by carthage
In beating the most skilled duelists of all time as opposed to fodder like Darth Traya, Sion, and featless Sith? She doesn't have any force feats surpassing Dooku, and she's a joke as a duelist compared to Kenobi, Maul, Anakin, etc. Sorry you can't accept that

I-I am sorry, I try to be composed when discussing these things but.... Traya.... fodder..... *Bites his own finger and walks into the other room to laugh in peace*

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Tanking an amped Nyriss' FL with barrier whilst hindered by an extremely powerful DS nexus comes to mind.

And? What offensive powers does she have that surpass Dooku's or Mace's feats with telekinesis?

Originally posted by Vixas
I-I am sorry, I try to be composed when discussing these things but.... Traya.... fodder..... *Bites his own finger and walks into the other room to laugh in peace*

Fodder duelists not fodder force users, Traya hasn't even got a single lightsaber duel under her belt against anyone on par with who was listed.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
By this point Revan's only feats are mediocre TK feats and redirecting Nyriss's lightning. Impressive if you count that as him using lightning but I'm still debating whether it should count as lightning handling or lightning shooting since he did not create the lightning itself with his own power.
I'm lost for words at the moment, tbh.

Have you read my Revan RT by any chance?

Syndicate
Originally posted by AncientPower
Tanking an amped Nyriss' FL with barrier whilst hindered by an extremely powerful DS nexus comes to mind.

Good durability and force resistance feat. It still doesn't place her on any of the teams level imo as she has no offensive force powers that place her on their level.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm lost for words at the moment, tbh.

Have you read my Revan RT by any chance?

Multiple times. wink Hmmm let me add that I think your respect thread says he created a large force storm as Darth Revan. Not completely sure.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
Multiple times. wink Hmmm let me add that I think your respect thread says he created a large force storm as Darth Revan. Not sure.

When you say "novel Revan" do you recognize his feats as displayed as a Dark Lord of the Sith, in KotOR, and on the Foundry?

Even then, calling his TK feats mediocre is simply laughable though.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When you say "novel Revan" do you recognize his feats as displayed as a Dark Lord of the Sith, in KotOR, and on the Foundry?

Even then, calling his TK feats mediocre is simply laughable though.

Maybe I missed something in your respect thread. Or maybe some of the feats you listed on there that I considered game mechanics you don't? *Shrug*

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
In beating the most skilled duelists of all time as opposed to fodder like Darth Traya, Sion, and featless Sith? She doesn't have any force feats surpassing Dooku, and she's a joke as a duelist compared to Kenobi, Maul, Anakin, etc. Sorry you can't accept that

Accept your trash arguments? Nah.

Darth Traya who has better Force feats than Dooku is fodder? Nice logic. Dooku's best lightning feats are killing Ventress and a couple of mercs, though he supposedly made Yoda struggle, which I doubt. Amped Nyriss however produced Sith lightning capable of incinerating Imperial Guards and strong Force users yet hindered Meetra tanked it.

Oh and someone who is quite possibly KotOR's most skilled swordsman isn't going to be a joke against anyone short of Sidious tiers. But hey good job at jumping the gun as per usual, they are all more skilled than her but no way are they considerably stronger than her in the Force, neither do they even approach Revan's tier.

Syndicate
Originally posted by AncientPower
Accept your trash arguments? Nah.

Darth Traya who has better Force feats than Dooku is fodder? Nice logic.

Dooku's best lightning feats are killing Ventress and a couple of mercs, amped Nyriss produced Sith lightning capable of incinerating Imperial Guards and strong Force users yet hindered Meetra tanked it.

Oh and someone who is quite possibly KotOR's most skilled swordsman isn't going to be a joke against anyone short of Sidious tiers.

But hey good job at jumping the gun as per usual, they are all more skilled than her but no way are they considerably stronger than her in the Force, neither do they even approach Revan's tier.

Revan's best feats are collapsing stone columns and bridges along with breaking through the force defenses of Satele Shan and company. Impressive and perhaps even warranting him being on the teams level of power but none of those feats suggest he is a tier or more above them. Novel Revan does not seem to have any feats on their level aside from redirecting Nyriss's lightning which ( to me at least ) is debatable in its applicable uses.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Accept your trash arguments? Nah.

Darth Traya who has better Force feats than Dooku is fodder? Nice logic.

Dooku's best lightning feats are killing Ventress and a couple of mercs, amped Nyriss produced Sith lightning capable of incinerating Imperial Guards and strong Force users yet hindered Meetra tanked it.

Oh and someone who is quite possibly KotOR's most skilled swordsman isn't going to be a joke against anyone short of Sidious tiers.

But hey good job at jumping the gun as per usual, they are all more skilled than her but no way are they considerably stronger than her in the Force, neither do they even approach Revan's tier.

The only one making trash arguments is you laughing out loud. Maybe you should re-read my post where I asked for you to post examples of her offensive force abilities, instead of lowballing Dooku's:
Originally posted by carthage
And? What offensive powers does she have that surpass Dooku's or Mace's feats with telekinesis?





You know how to respond to a comparison, right? I also never made the claim that they approach Revan in the force (Dooku does ), but nice putting words in my mouth thumb up.

But I accept your concession that you have neither any comparable offensive force showings for Surik or skill feats that compare to Mace or Dooku thumb up

Also being the most skilled Swordsmen in the History of the Jedi order per canon >> being the best of an era in your opinion. I'm also laughing at the idea of her being as skilled as Revan as well

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
Maybe I missed something in your respect thread. Or maybe some of the feats you listed on there that I considered game mechanics you don't? *Shrug*

Well, even simply discussing TK for his Revan Reborn incarnation:

> downpouring approx. forty asteroids with mere gestures in midst of battle.
> hurling Vitiate on his ass with an attack so powerful it sent Revan staggering.
> instantly ripping down stone archways and blowing open enormous doors.

The notion that Dooku or Windu can do the same for the first two is pretty lolworthy.

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
And? What offensive powers does she have that surpass Dooku's or Mace's feats with telekinesis?



Fodder duelists not fodder force users, Traya hasn't even got a single lightsaber duel under her belt against anyone on par with who was listed.

Lol I didn't even claim that Meetra surpassed them, at all, merely that they don't surpass her in terms of Force ability by any significant degrees.

But feel free to try and claim they fodderize her and make her a joke, your massive PT hard-on isn't showing at all.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
Revan's best feats are collapsing stone columns and bridges along with breaking through the force defenses of Satele Shan and company. Impressive and perhaps even warranting being the teams level but none of those feats suggest he is a tier or more above them.

Ripping through the Force barriers of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and the Emperor's Wrath (or Hero of Tython) four times certainly puts Revan a tier above Windu or Dooku in the Force.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol I didn't even claim that Meetra surpassed them, at all, merely that they don't surpass her in terms of Force ability by any significant degrees.

But feel free to try and claim they fodderize her and make her a joke, your massive PT hard-on isn't showing at all.

I never claim that they'd fodderize her blockhead. I asked you to show me what she has that makes her more powerful and or is comparable to their showings. You posted nothing of substance as usual to support your point

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, even simply discussing TK for his Revan Reborn incarnation:

> downpouring approx. forty asteroids with mere gestures in midst of battle.
> hurling Vitiate on his ass with an attack so powerful it sent Revan staggering.
> instantly ripping down stone archways and blowing open enormous doors.

The notion that Dooku or Windu can do the same for the first two is pretty lolworthy.

I'm speaking of his novel incarnation and everything up to that point but since you want to seemingly compare RR with the team...

The asteroids themselves were stationary and thus had no weight resistance. Your respect threads state that he hurled them to the ground with such force that they shattered to dust. This I firmly believe to be a game mechanic considering it would have been more difficult to place in shattered pieces of asteroid all over the fight area and the various physics that would go with such a debris filled field.

I honestly can't measure this feat since I lack knowledge on Vitiate past his introduction in the novel and even in the novel given how long ago I read it. Along with this I should probably inform you beforehand I do not see a force user breaking through another force user's defenses to be as great of a feat as some do.

Maybe I should rephrase. I meant mediocre in comparison to the higher tier TK feats of Vader/Dooku/Mace/Maul level characters.

AncientPower
So whilst weakened tanking lightning stronger than any of Dooku's unamped FL showings isn't substantial? Fantastic logic.

Withstanding the 'vast' TK and FLS powers of Traya in a geyser of DS energy and defeating her is also probably an even better feat.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ripping through the Force barriers of Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and the Emperor's Wrath (or Hero of Tython) four times certainly puts Revan a tier above Windu or Dooku in the Force.

I don't believe it does tbh. I think that breaking through force defenses while a good showing does not put a character on the level of power as the character who's defenses they broke. I may be incorrect in this opinion but I've seen the same thing argued for Krayt when he broke through Cade's defenses and I just can't bring myself to agree to this sort of logic, especially when I see characters with little to no feats doing this to characters with higher end feats and the feats of the more powerful character being applied to the one who broke through said character's defenses.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
So whilst weakened tanking lightning stronger than any of Dooku's unamped FL showings isn't substantial? Fantastic logic.

Withstanding the 'vast' TK and FLS powers of Traya in a geyser of DS energy and defeating her is also probably an even better feat.

She was knocked on her ass, she didn't "tank it" and Dooku's lightning is at least more quantifiable off nexus than Nyriss who lacks feats suggesting she can replicate her lightning's potency of Dromund Kaas thumb up.

And what if Traya couldn't afflict her on DK, Meetra has no offensive showings suggesting she'd even bother Dooku. Whereas, he can push her around or send her flying ALA Nyriss with lightning at the very least. I'm still waiting for your feats to suggest she's on Dooku's/Mace's level.

AncientPower
She tanked the worst of the lightning with a hastily thrown up barrier and was knocked over by the momentum:



Nyriss' unamped FL has zero relevance, the feat being presented is weakened Meetra being capable of blocking the worst of Nyriss' Force lightning with a Force barrier. Lightning which only some seconds earlier charred and husked two guards before they could even scream, something Dooku cannot replicate without his own amp.

Darth Traya had 'vast telekinetic powers' and had mastery of the Dark Side and Sorcery that Dooku has never replicated. Including but not limited to Force draining four Jedi High Council members with ease, one of which Kavar, was described as 'extremely powerful' in the Force.

DarthAnt66
I never understood this argument.

Firstly, the asteroids were not stationary. They were freely moving around. However, they were stuck in a "zone" above the Inner Sanctum in which gravity did not pull down on them, thus allowing them to basically appear to float. However, the field they are in clearly prevents the asteroids from escaping the said field, so Revan ripping the asteroids through that "zone" is enormously impressive given its specific purpose was to make sure the asteroids don't escape.

Next, even once he rips it from this zone that is designed to prevent something like that from happening, he still has to manipulate the falling asteroids in the midst of combat. And by the looks of it, he even manipulates the speed of which they are falling. He does this with simply gestures (forty times) while in combat against four of the greatest warriors in the galaxy.



It's possible, but given what we know about Rakata' technology and how incredible and durable it is, I wouldn't simply dismiss it.

Also, the game makers could have easily did similar effects to when Oric Traless collapsed portions of a ceiling while in a flashpoint, but they didn't.


He's a Sith Emperor who has lived for hundreds of years that has the combined power of eight thousand Sith Lords. He is described as "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."


Yeah, that claim is laughable.


Based on? You haven't provided any evidence that it isn't an indication of power. The only example you cited further proves my point. Darth Krayt was an immensely powerful figure capable of harming ancient entities that can destroy entire cities with the Force. He's undeniably far more powerful than Cade Skywalker, so obviously he's going to be telekinetically dominating him.

AncientPower
Completely agreeing with Ant.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by AncientPower
Completely agreeing with Ant.

You're beginning to shape up, tbh. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

DarthAnt66
AP has become a great asset to the cause, indeed.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
She tanked the worst of the lightning with a hastily thrown up barrier and was knocked over by the momentum:

Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
-SWTOR: Revan


I know that quote so what, she was still sent reeling afterward. If she tanked it she would've weathered it and withstood the full effects, she got knocked on her ass.



Except that Nyriss has no feats off of DK to suggest her lightning is as strong as Dooku's, and that his lightning wouldn't have the same effect of knocking her on her ass and presenting him with an opportunity to kill her ala Ventress




Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, and Quinlan Vos are all more powerful than the individuals you listed, and Dooku has ragdolled them, ko'ed them with lightning, and taken them out. As a duelist Dooku integrates his force powers you know in the middle of a fight, whereas, Traya just killed them while they were standing still? He doesn't need to "stomp her" all he needs to do is offset her with a push or lightning, and then gut her with his lightsaber.

DarthAnt66
To be fair winebottle, the fact Nyriss was on a dark side nexus doesn't affect Surik's feat at all - only makes it look more impressive.

Though, I agree that she's not on the same level as Maul / Mace / Dooku. thumb up She's also not a pushover either and has had her fair share of nice accolades.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I never understood this argument.

Firstly, the asteroids were not stationary. They were freely moving around. However, they were stuck in a "zone" above the Inner Sanctum in which gravity did not pull down on them, thus allowing them to basically appear to float. However, the field they are in clearly prevents the asteroids from escaping the said field, so Revan ripping the asteroids through that "zone" is enormously impressive given its specific purpose was to make sure the asteroids don't escape.

Next, even once he rips it from this zone that is designed to prevent something like that from happening, he still has to manipulate the falling asteroids in the midst of combat. And by the looks of it, he even manipulates the speed of which they are falling. He does this with simply gestures (forty times) while in combat against four of the greatest warriors in the galaxy.



It's possible, but given what we know about Rakata' technology and how incredible and durable it is, I wouldn't simply dismiss it.

Also, the game makers could have easily did similar effects to when Oric Traless collapsed portions of a ceiling while in a flashpoint, but they didn't.


He's a Sith Emperor who has lived for hundreds of years that has the combined power of eight thousand Sith Lords. He is described as "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."


Yeah, that claim is laughable.


Based on? You haven't provided any evidence that it isn't an indication of power. The only example you cited further proves my point. Darth Krayt was an immensely powerful figure capable of harming ancient entities that can destroy entire cities with the Force. He's undeniably far more powerful than Cade Skywalker, so obviously he's going to be telekinetically dominating him.

The zone you speak of would not need to exert much pressure to keep them from escaping it. Since they seem to freely float as you stated it seems as if the pressure exerted on them is negligible. Again the speed at which the asteroids come down I believe to be a game mechanic considering they would probably rather not add in a scene where Revan calls them all down one at a time over a long period of time. It simply takes too much time away from the actual battle. Rather then that it appears as if they all fall at once instantly. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree over that one.

I know that. I'm talking about the force feats he possessed by that point.

I don't believe it is.

Like Savage breaking through both Dooku and Ventress's force defenses at the same time.

Syndicate
I'm hitting the sack so apologies if I don't respond to you.

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
I know that quote so what, she was still sent reeling afterward. If she tanked it she would've weathered it and withstood the full effects, she got knocked on her ass.

Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.


Originally posted by carthage
Except that Nyriss has no feats off of DK to suggest her lightning is as strong as Dooku's, and that his lightning wouldn't have the same effect of knocking her on her ass and presenting him with an opportunity to kill her ala Ventress.

Are you having an off day? This is a feat for Meetra Surik, whom was weak at the time. Arguing that Nyriss' lightning off of a nexus is featless is totally beyond the point. More on the point of Meetra being weakened, if she had been on a neutral setting she likely could have tanked it outright.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi, Bulq, Ventress, and Quinlan Vos are all more powerful than the individuals you listed, and Dooku has ragdolled them, ko'ed them with lightning, and taken them out. As a duelist Dooku integrates his force powers you know in the middle of a fight, whereas, Traya just killed them while they were standing still? He doesn't need to "stomp her" all he needs to do is offset her with a push or lightning, and then gut her with his lightsaber.

He killed a defenseless Ventress with lightning and has TK'd the others, fantastic. Traya drained all four of those prepared Jedi Masters with ease, not forgetting that she repeatedly TK'd their attempts to engage her just beforehand.

What feats does Dooku have that compare to this?

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.




Are you having an off day? This is a feat for Meetra Surik, whom was weak at the time. Arguing that Nyriss' lightning off of a nexus is featless is totally beyond the point. More on the point of Meetra being weakened, if she had been on a neutral setting she likely could have tanked it outright.

I'm not getting how its relevant? She evidently hasn't got enough strength to avoid being thrown back, so her barrier isn't exactly fullproof. It isn't 'beyond the point' because it establishes that her barrier is only good enough to soak up some damage, but she can't prevent herself from going airborne. So it looks like she soaks up his lightning, and goes flying which means Dooku can stab her and win his fight thumb up





And dominating featless Jedi isn't beyond Dooku's scope of abilities with his force powers either. Fantastic.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dooku-darth-tyranus-respect-thread/95276/

AncientPower
Because it was thrown up instantly and wasn't a prep'd barrier, furthermore her barrier would be significantly stronger in a neutral setting. Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to husk Force Users in the first place and thus isn't going to have as strong an effect.

Lol they aren't featless and haven't been since the day they were introduced to canon. They are 'extremely powerful', having achieved the highest mastery in the Force and have been accredited with numerous more accolades. Her Force draining them simultaneously with ease after they had been given ample prep time is not a feat Dooku has replicated.

I am assuming you have no further argument to make considering how weak that one was so just save me the time and concede that Dooku and Meetra are comparable in Force prowess.

carthage
Originally posted by AncientPower
Because it was thrown up instantly and wasn't a prep'd barrier, furthermore her barrier would be significantly stronger in a neutral setting.

Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting? You also haven't shown anything to prove she's on par with Windu or Dooku in offensive abilities, so LOL at you avoiding my initial point to begin with thumb up. The feat speaks for itself she'll go flying when his lightning makes contact thumb up



Then pleast post their feats that suggest they're on par with Kenobi, Vos, or Ventress in power. Feats >> Accolades. Because Dooku has dominated individuals with actual showings, and so what if she knows drain? This is about the Exile and her offensive force abilities and how they'd affect Dooku. Stop avoiding the point and show me something that suggests parity for her telekinesis compared to Dooku



Right after you show me even a single TK feat for The Exile that compares to Mace, Dooku, or Maul thumb up. You posted a decent barrier feat (which wasn't fullproof) and that's all. If she hasn't got any TK feats then just concede the point

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by carthage
Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting?
No offense Carth, but it's pretty obvious a lightsider will have a stronger barrier on neutral grounds than a dark side nexus that is hindering her.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet she still blocked the worst of it with her hastily thrown up Force barrier, if she hadn't she would have been husked herself.

That doesn't really mean shit. Nyriss was wrecking her at every turn with back up.





She tanked some lightning so that puts her on Dooku's level? You can't be seriously arguing this.





1. There were only 3 masters (lol at you trying to frame deleted game scenes as canon)
2. Dooku pwned 2 of the most skilled Nightsisters and Ventress at once with a TK/lightning combo
3. Dooku effortlessly TKed Tiptree into his blade
4. Dooku effortlessly KO'ed Bulq with a short burst of lightning.

Not to mention fighting on par with the most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic.

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
Proof it'd be stronger in a neutral setting? You also haven't shown anything to prove she's on par with Windu or Dooku in offensive abilities, so LOL at you avoiding my initial point to begin with thumb up. The feat speaks for itself she'll go flying when his lightning makes contact. thumb up

Do I have to educate you on the effects an extremely powerful Dark Side nexus has to Light Side adherents such as Surik? Apparently.

Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn and Ben Skywalker suffered migraines, total Dark Side corruption, and loss of a connection to the Force whilst on a Dromund Kaas that had become far less potent after thousands of years.

Meetra Surik would be effected in this manner as well, likely to a degree on parity with Jaina's issue. Consisering how all of Meetra's power comes from finding Enlightenment and heavy self-augmentation the scenario would be even worse for her.

Ergo, Meetra's Force power and by extension Force Barrier would be much more potent.

Originally posted by carthage
Then please post their feats that suggest they're on par with Kenobi, Vos, or Ventress in power. Feats >> Accolades. Because Dooku has dominated individuals with actual showings, and so what if she knows drain? This is about the Exile and her offensive force abilities and how they'd affect Dooku. Stop avoiding the point and show me something that suggests parity for her telekinesis compared to Dooku.

Their feats include surviving Katarr's destruction and thus Darth Nihilus, being the most powerful Jedi in the Order bar Revan, Surik, Alek, Kreia and Atris in an era of Jedi where the battle experience and training was most profound. There are other feats of course but anyone who played the game should know them.

Your argument that they are fodder featless Jedi is safely debunked.

Originally posted by carthage
Right after you show me even a single TK feat for The Exile that compares to Mace, Dooku, or Maul thumb up. You posted a decent barrier feat (which wasn't fullproof) and that's all. If she hasn't got any TK feats then just concede the point

This is a debate of over-all prowess in the Force, trying to play the PT exposure card in this manner is pretty pathetic tbh. If you must demand TK feats, Meetra is apparently capable of destroying Air Towers with her TK, one shotting dozens of Kinrath and more.

That is besides the point yet again though, all you have managed to do so far is prove my point by being incapable of proving Dooku is stronger than Traya or Nyriss. Meetra surpassed the former and would be a match for the latter on neutral ground.

So again, prove that Dooku > Meetra in the Force, you haven't at all so far.

DarthAnt66
@AP: The three Jedi Masters from Dantooine weren't on Katarr, tbh.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Lord Stark
That doesn't really mean shit. Nyriss was wrecking her at every turn with back up.

Yes it does, Meetra was weakened considerably whereas Nyriss was amped, whom abused her amplified augmentation to out-speed Meetra.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
She tanked some lightning so that puts her on Dooku's level? You can't be seriously arguing this.

She tanked lightning with greater strength than Dooku's has shown, I.E. instantly husking two men with one arc and disintegrating powerful Force Users after.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. There were only 3 masters (lol at you trying to frame deleted game scenes as canon)
2. Dooku pwned 2 of the most skilled Nightsisters and Ventress at once with a TK/lightning combo
3. Dooku effortlessly TKed Tiptree into his blade
4. Dooku effortlessly KO'ed Bulq with a short burst of lightning.

1.Cut content is considered noteworthy around here, if you don't like that take it up with mods.
2.Featless nightsisters with no visible connection to the Force and his own apprentice? Well shit. *Waves white flag*
3.Nice.
4.Still not comparable to disintegrating Force Users as powerful as Meetra(potentially), Scourge(potentially) or Nyriss herself whilst they had first degree barriers up.

Also the Ventress killing feat was better and he still only killed her without her defenses up, whereas Nyriss disintegrates powerful f*ckers of Ventress tier and far higher with prep'd barriers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not to mention fighting on par with the most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic.

No he most certainly was not.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@AP: The three Jedi Masters from Dantooine weren't on Katarr, tbh.

I thought it was specifically mentioned that Kavar was there, I'll have to check.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
I thought it was specifically mentioned that Kavar was there, I'll have tp check.
I thought it was specifically mentioned he was not given that he was unaware Atris didn't attend the event.

AncientPower
Hmm. I'll have to check that properly, nice catch though.

carthage
The only thing you've proven is that her barrier can absorb some nexus lightning and send her flying. You haven't shown anything that puts her offensive force abilities on Dooku other than pulling an assumption out of nothing, we're already past the barrier feat. The fact you keep repeating it ad nauseam due to lack her tangible offensive force feats prove you've got nothing to stand on. What does her force augmentation have to do with anything?, she has no speed feats and wouldn't be boosted in a level comparable to Dooku and she'd get humiliated in a duel.




Surviving the destruction of a planet isn't a combat feat, derp. I asked what showings in the force do those Jedi masters have that indicate they wouldn't be stomped by Dooku and or are more powerful than Bulq, Ventress, Kenobi, or Vos.



Not really?



So she can destroy non force sensitives and destroy turrets, that's not really above Kenobi's level in telekinesis (imploding Durge, bringing down massive trees, bringing down massive portions of metal ceilings/durasteel ceiling placements etc). Dooku has accolades that call him among the most powerful force users in History, fought evenly with Yoda in the force on Geonosis, and per accolades is one of the Greatest swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order.

I'm not seeing anything that surpasses dominating Bulq, Vos, Kenobi, Ventress, koing AOTC Anakin, choking/dominating Anakin with lightning, or matching Yoda in the force. Or even his more rudimentary TK abilities of collapsing bridges, raining down tons of boulders on Tholme with a gesture, lifting obelisks that weigh tons.

She can't harm him with her weak telekinetic abilities tbh, whereas, Dooku has already torn apart individuals comparable to her in power

AncientPower
Originally posted by carthage
The only thing you've proven is that her barrier can absorb some nexus lightning and send her flying. You haven't shown anything that puts her offensive force abilities on Dooku other than pulling an assumption out of nothing, we're already past the barrier feat. The fact you keep repeating it ad nauseam due to lack her tangible offensive force feats prove you've got nothing to stand on. What does her force augmentation have to do with anything?, she has no speed feats and wouldn't be boosted in a level comparable to Dooku and she'd get humiliated in a duel.

Lol she did not get sent flying, she was knocked over by the momentum. You are dismissing this feat only because it proves that Surik's full strength barrier could absorb lightning stronger than Dooku's own. Concession accepted.

Meetra Surik isn't an offensive type, so her not having a trove of TK feats is to be expected. On the other hand her other feats which you appear to be desperate to dismiss are still proving that in a raw Force power contest Surik at least is comparable to him and at best can take whatever he throws at her.

If you really want to go down this road however, Meetra Surik is so naturally strong in the technique Sever Force that she was warned as a mere apprentice against using it. As a Jedi Master her ability in this technique would be exceptional.

Also internal amplifications and passive boosts to herself and her allies are Surik's bread and butter, not overtly offensive displays. Dooku would in no manner humiliate the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, a high level master of multiple forms considered by Drew to be more skilled than even Revan. Her Juyo mastery specfically would cause Dooku to actually fight for his win at least.

Originally posted by carthage
I asked what showings in the force do those Jedi masters have that indicate they wouldn't be stomped by Dooku and or are more powerful than Bulq, Ventress, Kenobi, or Vos.

Whilst they lack exposure and very many feats, what they have done and achieved speaks for itself:

Lonna Vash: Surviving and escaping Darth Sion, an unkillable Sith Warrior with decades of Jedi killing experience.

Kavar: fought in the Mando Wars and was praised as the Oder's greatest by the Mandalorians. Extremely powerful in the Force and a high tier master of multiple lightsaber techniques.

Vrook: Stated to be one of the Order's most venerable and revered Masters, praised by Bastila as one of the Order's most powerful and wise members.

Zez-Kai Ell: The least notable but considered strong enough to be nigh uncatchable by G0-T0's best hired hunters.

All four of them have achieved the highest mysteries of and mastery of the Force.

Likely most notable however is that all four of them are supposedly on terms with Lucien Draay, a very powerful Jedi Master in his own right.

Originally posted by carthage
Not really?

Basically, you made them out to be fodder and attempted a lowball of Traya's feat.

Originally posted by carthage
So she can destroy non force sensitives and destroy turrets, that's not really above Kenobi's level in telekinesis (imploding Durge, bringing down massive trees, bringing down massive portions of metal ceilings/durasteel ceiling placements etc). Dooku has accolades that call him among the most powerful force users in History, fought evenly with Yoda in the force on Geonosis, and per accolades is one of the Greatest swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order.

Destroy air towers actually, not that offensive TK displays are her main attraction in the first place. Meetra Surik has accolades calling her a legendary Jedi and amongst the greatest heroes in the Order's history. Also, Dooku lost he was by no means 'even' with a Jedi Master as powerful as ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm not seeing anything that surpasses dominating Bulq, Vos, Kenobi, Ventress, koing AOTC Anakin, choking/dominating Anakin with lightning, or matching Yoda in the force. Or even his more rudimentary TK abilities of collapsing bridges, raining down tons of boulders on Tholme with a gesture, lifting obelisks that weigh tons.

You mean you are simply diverting the argument away from feats you know you have no answer for? Good to see you admitting it.

Originally posted by carthage
She can't harm him with her weak telekinetic abilities tbh, whereas, Dooku has already torn apart individuals comparable to her in power

Lol, do you even remember what we were debating about? Which is Dooku, Mace, and Maul being considerably more powerful in the Force than Surik, something you still haven't proved. Provide feats comparable to incinerating very powerful Force users or effortlessly draining prep'd 'extremely powerful' Jedi Masters.

carthage
His lightning only needs to knock her down, it doesn't have to incinerate her but nice red herring . That also doesn't mean his telekinesis wouldn't affect her either , which you haven't refuted and Dooku has better telekinetic showings than Nyriss. His combination of telekinesis/lightning is enough to keep her on edge, and she has nothing in her showings to suggest she doesn't get blasted back as what happened with Nyriss



A barrier feat where she gets blown back and which says nothing about her ability to soak up superior telekinesis doesn't make her more powerful. The feats you listed don't put her above Kenobi let alone Dooku. As for her augmentative abilities that's nice, but as she's more of a support force user none of them are of any use against a duelist/offensive force user on Dookus's level. And no Revan besting Malak in spite of being hindered and Malak being one of the most powerful Sith lords of all time is a feat beyond Meetra.

When has she used Sever force in combat, or on an individual on par with Dooku?



The only person that even compares to Dooku is Lucien Draay, and his showings in the force surpass Meetra's as well

erm



How am I "lowballing them" when escaping Darth Sion, surviving the Mandalorian wars, and being "very powerful" have nothing to do with their actual showings in the force laughing out loud



Canon begs to differ thumb up



None of what you listed is comparable to Dooku's accolades:



http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3640078-9139540002-33343.jpg

-Credit to ShootingNova



Considering fighting evenly with Yoda in the force surpasses anything a loser like the Exile could ever accomplish your bravado is amusing thumb up



I haven't had a chance to post anything for Mace or Maul yet lol. I think I've already proved the point for Dooku though thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by McP
Both, Dooku and Mace are comperable (or a bit superior) to Revan.
These two might be more skilled duelists then Revan but he (i.e. Revan) is relatively more powerful and masterful in the ways of the Force. Moreover, dueling expertise of Count Dooku and Mace Windu is almost irrelevant in this confrontation; Vitiate prefers to use Force powers to overwhelm his opposition and he is an almost godlike master of the Dark Side.

For reference, check this confrontation between a Jedi Strike Team and Vitiate:

0GalABjUCig

Vitiate overwhelmed the entire Jedi Strike Team with his Force powers (Jedi were armed with Lightsabers but even these weapons proved to be useless and likely ended-up disintegrated). These Jedi are (officially) among the most powerful of the Order and damn good duelists. However, their theoretical advantages paled in front of Vitiate's command of the Dark Side and sheer raw power.

Originally posted by McP
Also, Mace and Dooku would give Sidious hell on their own.
Mace Windu is capable of holding his own against Darth Sidious in martial aspects of combat but it remains to be seen if he can handle Sidious's Force powers for long; I doubt he can. Sidious put Dooku in a chokehold from lightyears distance to teach him a lesson and ragdolled Darth Maul with his Force abilities in a confrontation. Dooku vs. Sidious? no contest honestly.

Vitiate have broad range of offensive options to consider. I doubt that Windu have an answer to every option.

Originally posted by McP
They would beeat Vitiate who is inferior to Sidious,
Alleged.

Originally posted by McP
and adding Maul only tips the scale. Team every single time.
No. Maul is fodder in this fight.

Heck, Vitiate may simply break the entire Strike Team (or) Dooku and Maul (at minimum) and use them as pwns against Windu (if the Jedi somehow manages to resist). For reference, Mother Talzin managed to possess Dooku, therefore Vitiate (who have relatively superior telepathic abilities) won't find it challenging to break Dooku and Maul at minimum. Even Windu lacks showings and experience in the matters of countering powerful telepathic powers and therefore vulnerable.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I honestly can't measure this feat since I lack knowledge on Vitiate past his introduction in the novel and even in the novel given how long ago I read it. Along with this I should probably inform you beforehand I do not see a force user breaking through another force user's defenses to be as great of a feat as some do.
Here is a treasure trove of information featuring Vitiate: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/

For overview of Vitiate's evolution and power progression: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/power-progression-and-evolution-of-emperor-vitiate/105016/

Vitiate's greatest showing: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-at-planet-ziost/105050/

carthage
love

McP
@Legend

All depend of the power-scaling. Vitiate has superior showings to Sidious and Yoda, due to being character from a game (almost all of games' characters have superior showings to the others).

Books, reference books were always some kind of retcons for that.
Naga Sadow was a man, many people (espiecially in polish' forums) believed, that he could destroys plantes whenever he wanted. At this moment, he can destroy unstabe stars and needed crystals do do it. he doesn't have nothing, that would place him in top 10, possibly top20 strongest Sith ever.

I see Yoda and Sidious as two strongest guys from their era, but they aren't undefeatable. I believe that one mistake, may cost them life. When Sidious attacked Maul and Opress with his FL, they were capable of blocking it. Savage was overhelmd, but Maul use that moment when Sidious had to split his attention to both of them, and catch him via his own TK. Sidious was able to free himself, but against Stronger enemies, like Vader or Dooku (in Savage's place) he would be doomed.
Amped Talzin was more or less equal to Sidious. When Dooku (weakened after Sidious' FL) came into fight, they quickly overhelm her, and forced onto deep defense (despite that she received support from Maul). Dooku's FL was a factor in that case.
Dooku on his own could compete with Yoda (but obviously wouldn't be able to beat him). Amped Dooku was nearly Yoda's equal.
Mace could compete with Sidious and even held his own against his FL.

Those three would crush Vitiate. If he would TK one of them, others would catch him off-guard. If he would try to use his FL (which is inferior to Sidious', I believe) against them, it would be easily blocked and they would counter with their TKs.
And he is outclassed by everyone of them in terms of dueling.

Sinious
Some of the posts in this thread are truly depressing. Why is lightsaber skill even being mentioned here? Being a better duelist than Revan has no importance here as even he would be able to kill Vitiate if he closed the gap. Force prowess and TP resistance are all that matters here and the team falls short in both categories.

@Ant

As surprising as it is, I completely agree with your point. thumb up

Syndicate
Originally posted by Sinious
Some of the posts in this thread are truly depressing. Why is lightsaber skill even being mentioned here? Being a better duelist than Revan has no importance here as even he would be able to kill Vitiate if he closed the gap. Force prowess and TP resistance are all that matters here and the team falls short in both categories.

@Ant

As surprising as it is, I completely agree with your point. thumb up

Don't look at me. I was simply comparing novel Revan's force powers with the teams and then he started bringing out RR feats on me and now we're on a debate about that.

Sinious
I think a better discussion could b held if Vitiate is not allowed to use his TP. I believe there are people who think he would still win and some people think he would lose even with his TP attack so I'd enjoy seeing how that would go.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Sinious
I think a better discussion could b held if Vitiate is not allowed to use his TP. I believe there are people who think he would still win and some people think he would lose even with his TP attack so I'd enjoy seeing how that would go.

Same.

Selenial
Originally posted by Sinious
Some of the posts in this thread are truly depressing. Why is lightsaber skill even being mentioned here? Being a better duelist than Revan has no importance here as even he would be able to kill Vitiate if he closed the gap. Force prowess and TP resistance are all that matters here and the team falls short in both categories.

@Ant

As surprising as it is, I completely agree with your point. thumb up

Yes, the team fall short in that they're not Vitiate's tier in force power. They don't however fall short enough that he can one shot them all before they close the gap.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes it does, Meetra was weakened considerably whereas Nyriss was amped, whom abused her amplified augmentation to out-speed Meetra.

Prove considerably. We know she was weakened, we hardly know to what extent. Also is there even any proof that the entirety of Droumund Kaas is a nexus?





First of all a charged force storm is not comparable to a casual burst of lightning such as what Dooku has shown. Second, even if that's true Dooku has clashed evenly with Yoda himself. Meetra does not compare.



Lol you've been a user for a year. I've been around here way longer than you, and it's not noteworthy. We use the Lucasarts canon policy around here.


Being the finest warriors amongst the nightsisters of dathomir is actually a pretty good accolade considering nightsisters>nightbrothers and an unarmed nightbrother was able to match Ventress in H2H.



Again. A charged force storm is not comparable to a casual burst.



She intercepted a bolt meant for Vos, why would her defenses be down?




Oh yes he was.
"The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other."
"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched."

I'll take your concession in this thread, although if you want to do it more intimately in private you can shoot me a PM. wink


Also who has Vitiate mind controlled remotely on the level of Maul, Dooku and Mace. Shit didn't Lana outright resist it?

Selenial
Lol @ using sources that say the AOTC duel was even when hundreds also describe it as a loss for Dooku.

If you want to prove they were actually even, prove it by making an argument instead of selectively using sources that contradict each other relentlessly.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Selenial
Lol @ using sources that say the AOTC duel was even when hundreds also describe it as a loss for Dooku.

If you want to prove they were actually even, prove it by making an argument instead of selectively using sources that contradict each other relentlessly.

Show me a source that describes it as a loss for Dooku.

DarthAnt66
The original source material (the script) clearly shows Yoda crushing Dooku:

"COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Wprds are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light.

Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head."

The Attack of the Clones novelization and comic also made it clear Dooku was losing / lost.

Based on the fact the three primary sources (besides the movie since the victor was not stated) of the battle make it clear Dooku lost... he lost.

Beniboybling
It's true Yoda didn't best Dooku in the Force, but that doesn't make him unable.This is just false, the only action made by Yoda that can even be interpreted as an attack is deflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him. Other than that Yoda didn't attempt to defeat Dooku with the Force at all.

That's what happens when you use a children's book as a source.

Emperordmb

Emperordmb
Credit to Aurbere for those quotes.

Would've edited it into my first post, but the editing thing isn't working very well atm for some reason.

DarthAnt66
Bu-but Dooku stalemated him!

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'll take your concession in this thread, although if you want to do it more intimately in private you can shoot me a PM. wink AP be conceding over private PM tbh.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The original source material (the script) clearly shows Yoda crushing Dooku:

"COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light.

Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head."

The Attack of the Clones novelization and comic also made it clear Dooku was losing / lost.

Based on the fact the three primary sources (besides the movie since the victor was not stated) of the battle make it clear Dooku lost... he lost.


This is a lightsaber duel...and it is n-canon considering it describes Dooku being disarmed by Yoda and Yoda jumping on his shoulder. Direct contradiction to the actual movie. Also the novelization also describes Yoda deflecting Dooku's lightning 'far from easily' if I recall.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's true Yoda didn't best Dooku in the Force, but that doesn't make him unable.This is just false, the only action made by Yoda that can even be interpreted as an attack is deflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him. Other than that Yoda didn't attempt to defeat Dooku with the Force at all.

That's what happens when you use a children's book as a source.

Yoda doesn't use the force for attack though. :/



A. This is in reference to the lightsaber duel. I was clearly referencing the force portion of the battle.
B. None of this discounts what I said, that he fought on par with Yoda. Eventually retreating doesn't mean it was a stomp. No one is arguing Dooku=Yoda in every way. What can be argued is that Yoda and Dooku fought on even ground for quite some time.
C. Losing doesn't mean loss.

Lord Stark
All of this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Vitiate tries to mind **** any combatant and he will likely get put on his ass or a lightsaber in the gut.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda doesn't use the force for attack though. :/Exactly, if he did he would have ragdolled Dooku as easily as Sidious. Yoda's principles was the only thing preventing Dooku getting pwned.Originally posted by Lord Stark
All of this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Vitiate tries to mind **** any combatant and he will likely get put on his ass or a lightsaber in the gut. I'm pretty sure Vitiate is capable of mind ****ing them all at once. no expression

Nephthys
Yoda's so dumb.

carthage
Lmao those quotes are referring to a Lightsaber duel not their brief contest in the force. For all of the fellating over The Exile no one has produced any feats of here that suggest she is an equal of Dooku in the force.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by carthage
Lmao those quotes are referring to a Lightsaber duel not their brief contest in the force. For all of the fellating over The Exile no one has produced any feats of here that suggest she is an equal of Dooku in the force. How can it be a contest if Yoda didn't participate. confused

Emperordmb
Not saying the Exile is on Dooku's level in the Force. Just that Dooku isn't on Yoda's tbh

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, if he did he would have ragdolled Dooku as easily as Sidious. Yoda's principles was the only thing preventing Dooku getting pwned.I'm pretty sure Vitiate is capable of mind ****ing them all at once. no expression

First off Sidious choking Dooku while the latter was on his knees and arguably defenseless is not really the same thing as being able to choke him out mid battle. No...he's really not.

If he could why would he not just mind control Scourge and Meetra (or at least try to). Also frankly Vitiate got put on his ass by what amounted to a glorified TK when Revan felt his presence in his mind. If you don't think Maul let alone Dooku and Windu can do that you're kidding yourself.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Not saying the Exile is on Dooku's level in the Force. Just that Dooku isn't on Yoda's tbh

When did I ever say that? Mace fought on par with Sidious, that doesn't mean they are on the same level bro.

Beniboybling
Tbh Carth you're focusing too heavily on offensive Force powers, which is hardly accurate since the Exile's preference and focus as passive/defensive/bolstering powers.

Fact is the Exile took on an academy of Sith, numbering around 100 if I'm correct, on one of the most potent dark side nexuses in the galaxy, defeated Darth Sion three times, and then, without a break, went on to defeat Darth Traya, a more powerful Force user than Dooku, above a geyser of dark side energy.

This is an exceptional feat of stamina and endurance, what exactly has Dooku done to match it? Let alone eclipse it?

DarthAnt66
>blames Carthage for discussing offensive Force powers in the thread.
>lists offensive feats for Surik and points them for evidence of her power.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
> blames Carthage for discussing offensive Force powers in the thread.
> lists offensive feats for Surik and points them for evidence of her power. I was pointing to stamina and endurance, should have made that more clear.Originally posted by Lord Stark
First off Sidious choking Dooku while the latter was on his knees and arguably defenseless is not really the same thing as being able to choke him out mid battle. No...he's really not.First off you're detracting from the point, that Yoda didn't engage Dooku in a contest of Force powers so it's impossible to claim Dooku contended with him.

Secondly I find it very unlikely that a highly trained master Force user of Dooku's caliber, who was infrequently targeted by assassins, would not have learned to have his defenses raised at all times, a lesson taught to Sidious by his own master.They weren't really in the vicinity, Revan was the only one in Vitiate's presence.

Anyway he's performed TP on a planetary scale, albeit in spirit form, but it's still a massively impressive feat, I'm sure he can manage three Force sensitives. I'm not confident he can break them all at once however but he'd certainly try.

DarthAnt66
So being able to run longer than Dooku means she is more powerful than him in the Force?

mmm Interesting.

DarthAnt66
Dean Karnazes vs Dooku (Force-only), Beni?

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh Carth you're focusing too heavily on offensive Force powers, which is hardly accurate since the Exile's preference and focus as passive/defensive/bolstering powers.

Fact is the Exile took on an academy of Sith, numbering around 100 if I'm correct, on one of the most potent dark side nexuses in the galaxy, defeated Darth Sion three times, and then, without a break, went on to defeat Darth Traya, a more powerful Force user than Dooku, above a geyser of dark side energy.

This is an exceptional feat of stamina and endurance, what exactly has Dooku done to match it? Let alone eclipse it?


Fought on par with Yoda, defeated Mace Windu, defeated the Chosen One.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling


Secondly I find it very unlikely that a highly trained master Force user of Dooku's caliber, who was infrequently targeted by assassins, would not have learned to have his defenses raised at all times, a lesson taught to Sidious by his own master.



Guard up or not, it's not the same as doing it Mid-Duel.

If it was Sidious would have choked out Mace after 5 seconds of duelling him.

Dooku =/> Mace in Force Powers.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was pointing to stamina and endurance, should have made that more clear.First off you're detracting from the point, that Yoda didn't engage Dooku in a contest of Force powers so it's impossible to claim Dooku contended with him.

Uh, did I not state how the AOTCs novel explicitly states that Yoda's deflection of Dooku's lightning was 'far from easy'.



Like when he got ambushed by the nightsisters? Or when Kenobi headbutted and disarmed him when he was caught off guard? Shit, even Yoda was caught off guard by Sidious when he walked into his office with the intent to kill him. So do you have proof his defenses were up? Or do you want to concede.



1. Quality>Quantity. As I said he didn't mind dominate Lana.
2. This is Novel!Vitiate.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Lord Stark
As I said he didn't mind dominate Lana.
Because his power was spread across an entire planet. erm

Lord Stark
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because his power was spread across an entire planet. erm

And what was his excuse for not mind dominating Scourge and Meetra? Not to mention there was no one of note on that world...at all. Which brings me to my next point, when has he dominated the minds of anyone on the level of Maul, Dooku, and Mace?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Lord Stark
And what was his excuse for not mind dominating Scourge and Meetra?
There's a difference between "he couldn't" and "he didn't."
---
@ EDIT:


Didn't he mind**** that elite group of Jedi?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
when has he dominated the minds of anyone on the level of Maul, Dooku, and Mace?
Malak > any of them in mental resistance.

DarthAnt66
^

Lord Stark
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's a difference between "he couldn't" and "he didn't."

Prove that he could have.



Sure he did, after they had all been incapacitated. And none of them are comparable to even Maul.



Seriously? laughing
Even Talzin needed a powerful ritual + being on her own personal nexus to mind **** Dooku.

DarthAnt66
Well given that a mere brush against Scourge's mind sent him on the ground crying like a *****...


I'm not talking about the Hero's Strike Team. I'm talking about the Sixth Line.


Resisting Malachor V (which ****ed over Kreia), resisting Nathema (which ****ed over the Exile), and resisting the Star Forge (which ****ed over the Rakata) >>>


Well Talzin does everything with rituals and spells, so that shouldn't be much of a surprise.

And what, she couldn't have ****ed over Dooku off Dathomir? erm What's the support of that claim?

Nephthys
Scourge admitted 300 years later that he couldn't face Vitiate without falling to his mental domination. Even when Vitiate was weakened and the HoT was there.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Resisting Malachor V (which ****ed over Kreia), resisting Nathema (which ****ed over the Exile), and resisting the Star Forge (which ****ed over the Rakata) >>>


Both wrong tbh.

The Sith Hermetica ****ed over Kreia, not the planet. There's a difference. As for Nathema, unless you can prove Malak survived it unfazed, he didn't exactly do better than the Exile.

Beniboybling

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge admitted 300 years later that he couldn't face Vitiate without falling to his mental domination. Even when Vitiate was weakened and the HoT was there. Dooku, Windu & Maul > Scourge. thumb up

Nephthys
I was replying to Stark asking for proof that Vitiate could TP Scourge and Meetra.

Beniboybling
Ah, fair enough.

Anyway I think the point can be made that Vitiate, while capable of TPing anyone of them, is likely incapable to TPing all of them at once, or TPing one fast enough before the others can intervene. Revan-tier seems to be his limit.

DarthAnt66

Beniboybling
Kreia was corrupted to the dark side after finding the teachings of the Academy compelling, that hardly has anything to do with mental resistance lol. Not that it matters considering both Malak and Revan we're corrupted to the dark side by reading Sith teachings as well. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia was corrupted to the dark side after finding the teachings of the Academy compelling, that hardly has anything to do with mental resistance lol. Not that it matters considering both Malak and Revan we're corrupted to the dark side by reading Sith teachings as well. thumb up
http://i.imgur.com/vlvVTy2.gif

Aurbere
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia was corrupted to the dark side after finding the teachings of the Academy compelling, that hardly has anything to do with mental resistance lol. Not that it matters considering both Malak and Revan we're corrupted to the dark side by reading Sith teachings as well. thumb up

Kreia was corrupted by Sith teachings into believing that the Force had to be killed? :/ laughing out loud

Revan embraced the dark side after reading far greater amounts of Sith lore, and he didn't believe the Force needed to be killed. So... they aren't really comparable.

Beniboybling
Because they have a different perspective on the Force. no expression

Selenial
I'm not seeing how that indicates Malak read the Sith Hermetica at all :/

Uncovering =/= reading. They were forbidden even among the Sith, and considered the writing of the insane, almost worthless...

DarthAnt66
@Beni: "Even as she wants to denounce this, Darth Traya falls under its seductive spell." --KotORCG

You are more retarded than if someone from Mortis became the embodiment of retardation.

Emperordmb
Dafuq is Sith Hermatica?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
They were forbidden even among the Sith, and considered the writing of the insane, almost worthless...
If they were forbidden and considered insane, that must mean Revan and Malak read them in the first place to consider them such. erm

Or what, they are going to see some ancient scrolls and be like "NOpE this is FORBIDDEN but NOT GONNA READ IT" like all Sith do? laughing out loud

Nephthys
Silly Ant, Malak can't read. roll eyes (sarcastic)

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