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Which legendary Jedi Battlemaster wins? Fight takes place on flat, neutral terrain.

Katarn, tbh.

Not sure.

Originally posted by carthage
Not sure.

Let me help out with that; Kyle is the superior duelist - while HoT is the superior Force user. But given Katarn has battled against other Force Powerhouses and won (amped Desann, Jeric) I don't see why he can't circumvent Hero's edge here.
Kyle takes the majority, IMHO.

How is Kyle the better duelist?

Proficient in more forms, defeated 6 "powerful" Dark Jedi where each one was more powerful than the next, BEFORE receiving any worthile Lightsaber training, and gaining substantial power after rekindling his power via the Valley of the Jedi.

Years later, he would plow his way through a horde of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadowtroopers en-route to besting an amped Desann, a duelist that crossed blades with Luke Skywalker and lived to tell the tale----someone Luke legit feared to combat. Also, per the writers of the games itself, Kyle grew even more powerful and skilled after the events above.
I don't know about you, but I'm a tad bit more impressed with Kyle's showings, tbh.
Maybe few typos and incoherent statements in there because I'm sleepy and it's 3:00 AM where I am.....bear with me.

The Knight knows enough forms to cover an offensive, defensive or balanced fighting style. It won't be particularly important here.

And as a mere padawan learner, the Knight was besting dozens upon dozens of Flesh Raiders (including Force-sensitive, saber-wielding ones), with only small mobs of regular ones being able to injure a Jedi Knight already (in fact, three Jedi students only managed to kill one fodder Flesh Raider at the cost of one of their own being seriously wounded).

Then there's Praven, who, before his prime, had already slain Usma, one of the Order's finest swordsmen. Not only did the Knight defeat a later and presumably more skilled version of Praven, but around that time, he also defeated Sadic, who was supposedly already better than Praven before he became a Power Guard which enhanced his physical attributes and calculational power immensely.

Then there's his myriad of accolades placing him as the best duelist of his time, and the fact that he fought through (I believe) dozens of Imperial Guards on a potent dark side nexus, with the likes of Darth Nyriss (who would've benefited from such a nexus) admitting that they'd fall before the might of such a number of Imperial Guards.

LAL.
I'll get to this tomorrow; I'm off to bed now.

--

bump

The Bearded One dies.

What if HoT has a beard?

It takes more than that to be The Bearded One.

Kyle Katarn's blaster concealed within his majestic beard wins the day.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Proficient in more forms, defeated 6 "powerful" Dark Jedi where each one was more powerful than the next, BEFORE receiving any worthile Lightsaber training, and gaining substantial power after rekindling his power via the Valley of the Jedi.

Years later, he would plow his way through a horde of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadowtroopers en-route to besting an amped Desann, a duelist that crossed blades with Luke Skywalker and lived to tell the tale----someone Luke legit feared to combat. Also, per the writers of the games itself, Kyle grew even more powerful and skilled after the events above.
I don't know about you, but I'm a tad bit more impressed with Kyle's showings, tbh.
Maybe few typos and incoherent statements in there because I'm sleepy and it's 3:00 AM where I am.....bear with me. The HoT is better as a lightsaber duelist then as a force user, as he's a Jedi Guardian.

One of them wins, imho.

Originally posted by SunRazer

The Knight knows enough forms to cover an offensive, defensive or balanced fighting style. It won't be particularly important here.



Yeah, this doesn't debunk what I said, really. Covering an offensive style doesn't really debunk Kyle knowing more styles. Atura, Juyo, and Djem So, are all "offensive styles" that incorporate a different methods to reach it's desired results. Just throwing out blanket statements like the above doesn't help your case.

Kyle knows more forms and is the superior technical duelist. He effectively blended together forms from the The Jedi Order, both New and Old, ritualized forms, and the sword training he received as a Imperial Stormtrooper into one unique form into his making and more to the point he's ambidextrous as a duelist. That was my main point all along. Whether it plays a big part in actual dueling, or not is another argument all together.

Originally posted by SunRazer

And as a mere padawan learner, the Knight was besting dozens upon dozens of Flesh Raiders (including Force-sensitive, saber-wielding ones), with only small mobs of regular ones being able to injure a Jedi Knight already (in fact, three Jedi students only managed to kill one fodder Flesh Raider at the cost of one of their own being seriously wounded).



...wait. Needing a small mob to injure a fodder Jedi isn't really an impressive showing, KEK. Fodder pirates have killed Jedi Knights so I'm not seeing how needing a mob to injure one is as worthwhile as you're making it sound. The same with 3 Jedi trainees. I mean they were just trainees.

Regardless, Kyle stalemating Boba Fett in combat as a merc and before any worthwhile connection to the Force possibly surpasses this feat. Remember; Boba has killed many Jedi during his time - wrecked Rahm Kota, killed a Clone of Starkiller and held his own with Darth Vader. He even taught Jaina all of her tricks that enable her to beat her brother, Darth Caedus. But this isn't even Kyle's most impressive showings as a newbie. His most impressive showings would be defeating ^ Dark Jedi before any training with a Lightsaber besides a few specialty moves from master Qu Rahn.

To delves more into the feat; all of them were considered; all of them were very skilled and powerful foes per canon (New Essential Guide of the Characters) , and they only got more powerful and skilled with each consecutive Dark Jedi he faced, per canon. Sarris, being the culmination of them all being the last of the Dark Jedi and canonically the most skilled. More skilled than even Boc (confirmed to be a master of Niman/Jar'kai) and Maw ( a confirmed master of Juyo's off-shoot Trispzest; and we all know in order to use Juyo you would need to be a high level master in multiple forms can achieve and control).

So Sarris was an extremely skilled opponent through canonical scaling, and Kyle bested her, before receiving any formal lightsaber training, before receiving a noticeable boost via the Valley of the Jedi, and before mastering forms such as Djem So, Shii-Cho, Ataru, Strong Style, Fast Style, Medium Style, and the like. Just the little stuff Qu Rhan Force Ghost taught him (such as the Flowing Water technique) and his Imperial fencing training. I somehow see Kyle's newb showing as superior, to the Hero taking out fodder Flesh raiders. oh, and as an added bonus, Kyle - during this time period - has slaughtered through a horde of Sith Abomination of a potent darkside nexus; an excellent feat of fodder busting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Then there's Praven, who, before his prime, had already slain Usma, one of the Order's finest swordsmen.





Praven beating one of the most skilled Swordsman in the Jedi Order is all well and dandy, but that is honestly not far from what we know of Maw, tbh. And we know how that went when Kyle battled him before like 2-3 upgrades in skill and power----you know, when he learned formal lightsaber forms and amped up his raw power at the Valley.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But around that time, he also defeated Sadic, who was supposedly already better than Praven before he became a Power Guard which enhanced his physical attributes and calculational power immensely.



I have my doubts that this is honestly superior to beating someone who struck fear into the heart of Luke Skywalker even after their brief duel. But this time when Kyle bested him, he was extremely amped to ridiculous level when Kyle battled him in the Yavin temple. All of this was after Kyle fought his way through a horde of Reborn/Dark Jedi/Shadowtroopers as well, btw.



Originally posted by SunRazer

Then there's his myriad of accolades placing him as the best duelist of his time



Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And the fact that he fought through (I believe) dozens of Imperial Guards on a potent dark side nexus with the likes of Darth Nyriss (who would've benefited from such a nexus) admitting that they'd fall before the might of such a number of Imperial Guards.



Proof of this, pls? Was it at once, or individually? did he face multiple at once? Not that I don't believe you, but some context would certainly help here.

....
I would post more, but the wall of text is already giant enough, LAL.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The HoT is better as a lightsaber duelist then as a force user, as he's a Jedi Guardian.
I understand. But that doesn't negate my opinion on how they stack up.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
as he's a Jedi Guardian.
So is Revan.

I like how the TORbots try to pass off Hero as this LIGHTTTSABBBERR PRODIGY, and even a few posters said he's better than Mace Windu or Count Dooku. When his kill count includes such A-list master duelists as Usma and the immortal Warren Sedoru! Such wow, I mean these guys wouldn't be fit to be chopped down by a clunky slow robot man, but the TOR crowd champions these swordsmen as facking comparable to the best of other eras.

That being said I have no idea who wins this, this is a legitimately puzzling one. As Kyle really isn't a luminary of lightsaber skill himself, but I suppose it can be close. At least DCC is making an argument when the TORcrowd is too busy circlejerking each other and being like "MAH BOI HOT IS TEH BEZT".

Yes, SWTOR focuses on the force powerz of certain characters rather than lightsaber dueling.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So is Revan.
To be fair, he didn't even know Anakin was a Jedi Guardian.

Eh, I'll respond later if I have time/feel like it.

Quick note on this, though:

"Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate."

When it came to the NJO's finest warriors, Luke, Jacen and Mara were the first names to be mentioned. That would suggest Kyle is beneath Mara, and I have my doubts that she's above the HoT.

And being "one of the best" out of hundreds/thousands of Jedi isn't more impressive than being the best of your time. You can't use the very best of the era to say that the average Jedi would suddenly be more skilled in that era. For instance, Luke's completely irrelevant when we know he would cream Kyle.

I'm not seeing how he's "the best of his era". Revan and Malgus are both comparable quite comparable to the Hero overall.

The best Jedi of his era would probably be a more accurate comment.

Don't know why anyone would mention Kyle in the same breath as Luke, Jacen or Jaina. We saw exactly how comparable he was when Jacen almost cut his lets off a few moves into a fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Eh, I'll respond later if I have time/feel like it.

Quick note on this, though:

"Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate."

When it came to the NJO's finest warriors, Luke, Jacen and Mara were the first names to be mentioned. That would suggest Kyle is beneath Mara, and I have my doubts that she's above the HoT.

And being "one of the best" out of hundreds/thousands of Jedi isn't more impressive than being the best of your time. You can't use the very best of the era to say that the average Jedi would suddenly be more skilled in that era. For instance, Luke's completely irrelevant when we know he would cream Kyle.
I saw the quote, juat because Mara, Jacen and Luje was mentioned, that doesn't mean they were the best in the Order--- in fact, the quote itself didn't even say as much. Just being "renowned" warriors doesn't mean they're the absolute best of the Order ---- even then, A>B>C> logic is crap here because HoT isn't Mara and his feats and hype aren't superior to Katarn. This kind of logic and reaching is tantamount to someone who can't form a somewhat decent rebuttal.

I have no idea what you're saying in the second half of your post. My point is, that Kyle wouldn't be the "best" of his era" because they are guys like Jacen, Jaina, and Luke who are all better than him, as the top tier's of his era are top tiers in the entire mythos. I never claimed Kyle being one of the best in his era's mean more than HoT being "the best" in his-----I'm saying the accolades are incomparable across era's because if HoT was placed in the NJO, he wouldn't be "the best" in the era, either. And likewise, Kyle may, or may not be the best in TOR era if he was placed there as well. That's kinda what we're discussing here before you went on a tangent behind statements and semantics.

Hero of Tython still wins, it'd be a good fight because Kyle is very underrated but still Hero wins.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I saw the quote, juat because Mara, Jacen and Luje was mentioned, that doesn't mean they were the best in the Order--- in fact, the quote itself didn't even say as much. Just being "renowned" warriors doesn't mean they're the absolute best of the Order ---- even then, A>B>C> logic is crap here because HoT isn't Mara and his feats and hype aren't superior to Katarn. This kind of logic and reaching is tantamount to someone who can't form a somewhat decent rebuttal.

I have no idea what you're saying in the second half of your post. My point is, that Kyle wouldn't be the "best" of his era" because they are guys like Jacen, Jaina, and Luke who are all better than him, as the top tier's of his era are top tiers in the entire mythos. I never claimed Kyle being one of the best in his era's mean more than HoT being "the best" in his-----I'm saying the accolades are incomparable across era's because if HoT was placed in the NJO, he wouldn't be "the best" in the era, either. And likewise, Kyle may, or may not be the best in TOR era if he was placed there as well. That's kinda what we're discussing here before you went on a tangent behind statements and semantics.

1. No, the point was that they were the first names thought of when it came to renowned warriors. And sure, renowned isn't the same as skillful, but it has some translation. ABC logic is only being used loosely here - the bulk of my argument pertains to the HoT's feats, not powerscaling or accolades, and it's just something I haven't been able to elaborate on yet (I'll do so later, probably tomorrow).

Also, you can quit the taunting.

2. That's also flawed logic, but as you said, we don't want to be caught up on semantic parties. The point isn't that they're incomparable accolades, I was just listing reasons as to why the HoT would rival or supersede Kyle, whereas you seemed bent on proving Kyle was superior. The accolades aren't the backbone of my argument, but in combination with the HoT's feats, they lend credence to the notion that HoT rivals or possibly exceeds Kyle in skill. All I'm interested in so far is proving that the skill territory is debatable and hasn't been claimed by anyone yet. I'll get to proving that tomorrow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't know why anyone would mention Kyle in the same breath as Luke, Jacen or Jaina. We saw exactly how comparable he was when Jacen almost cut his lets off a few moves into a fight.

Yep.
That's why I said he was one of the best of his era' and not the best because guys like Jacen and Luke would scar-drag him. But the same would happen to The Hero if he was in the NJO as opposed to being the best of TOR era. I think you missed the point in that part (see my explination to Razer) but I probably could have done a much better job articulating it in hindsight. Though, I did say it wasn't a deciding factor in the debate, so why people latch on like it's the crux of my argument, I have no clue.

Nobody thought it was the crux of your argument, lol. It was just the shortest part to address, so logically I would address that given that I have limited time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No, the point was that they were the first names thought of when it came to renowned warriors. And sure, renowned isn't the same as skillful, but it has some translation. ABC logic is only being used loosely here - the bulk of my argument pertains to the HoT's feats, not powerscaling or accolades, and it's just something I haven't been able to elaborate on yet (I'll do so later, probably tomorrow).

Also, you can quit the taunting.

2. That's also flawed logic, but as you said, we don't want to be caught up on semantic parties. The point isn't that they're incomparable accolades, I was just listing reasons as to why the HoT would rival or supersede Kyle, whereas you seemed bent on proving Kyle was superior. The accolades aren't the backbone of my argument, but in combination with the HoT's feats, they lend credence to the notion that HoT rivals or possibly exceeds Kyle in skill. All I'm interested in so far is proving that the skill territory is debatable and hasn't been claimed by anyone yet. I'll get to proving that tomorrow.

1)...so? What does that prove? Being listed as the most renown still wouldn't make more skilled than him, as the terms are far from synonymous. Even then, one statement isn't enough for me to say Mara > Kyle for certain. Or else Cin Draling is a match for GG, or Luminara is on the plain of Count Dooku as a Force user.

2. Nah. The logic isn't flawed. It's pretty eimple to grasp, tbh.
>HoT is the "greatest of his era"
>Kyle is "one of the greatest of his era"
>Put HoT in Kyle's era and he would be in Katarn's spot "one of the greatest of his era" and it's not even debatable.
>Put Kyle in HoT spot, and he's debatably "the greatest of his era"
>Because of this, the accolades aren't going to be a factor

Tell me, where is this logic flawed, exactly?

1. Which is why I admitted that renown isn't the same as skill, but suggesting that they're completely separate terms is stretching it slightly thin.

2. That's not what you said before. Anyways, if Kyle is only "debatably" the greatest of the era, then we're already seeing a disparity as the HoT is already the confirmed best of the Jedi.

And just because they can share similar accolades doesn't mean the accolades suddenly become irrelevant. It supports the notion that HoT is right up there with Kyle and that Kyle isn't necessarily more skilled. To deduce that for certain, we'll need to look at their feats, which, as I said, I'll do tomorrow, because I'm too tired to do that now.

Oh, and "one of the greatest of an era" is a very vague accolade that almost any notable, big-time Jedi has under their belt.

The disparity is pretty acute imo. The Hero was being called the greatest Jedi as early as Tython. She surpasses Orgus Din, the most veteran Jedi in the order by that point and he himself states she's more powerful than any living Jedi. She was trained by "the best" duelists/instructors and beat them all before the game even started. She's repeatedly named the best Jedi by the end of Act 1 and still has massive growth over the other 2 Acts + expansion materials.

Sunrazer also raises a good point that practically any Jedi of note is "one of the greatest of an era".

1. Maybe, maybe not. Mara could be more renown for several factor, not just limited to her dexterity with a blade, or it even being a large factor in it.

2. Well, then what was it I said, Razer? I say debatably because I'm not arrogant enough to flunt my opinion of Kyle > Hero as fact. Obviously, to me Kyle would be the best since I have Katarn as the Hero's superior, but others may feel differently, hence---- the proposition being debatable.

As for the rest of your post, meh. I'll await what you have to say later today. Not going to argue semantics, amd split hairs at this point