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2x everything, 2x strength 2x speed 2x stamina 2xexperience 2x everything

BA with ease with these stips

Good thread.
Superman still wins. He is strength equal to BA when holding back and much stronger when not holding back. Superman is a lot faster in combat with far better reflexes. Superman also has ranged powers such as hv and freeze breath.

I'm telling you, it's a disease.

Originally posted by h1a8
Good thread.
Superman still wins. He is strength equal to BA when holding back and much stronger when not holding back. Superman is a lot faster in combat with far better reflexes. Superman also has ranged powers such as hv and freeze breath.

http://d2x3wmakafwqf5.cloudfront.net/wordpress/wp-content/blogs.dir/71/files/2014/09/whoa.jpg

BA wins, H1, shut up already.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I'm telling you, it's a disease.
I don't even know what to say.....

This super disease is worst than the pandemic superfluenza. It's at least 1 million x everything worst.

Lolz,I was stunned when I read that

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
BA wins, H1, shut up already.

Originally posted by h1a8
Good thread.
Superman still wins. He is strength equal to BA when holding back and much stronger when not holding back. Superman is a lot faster in combat with far better reflexes. Superman also has ranged powers such as hv and freeze breath.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/08/wtf.gif

I can prove that Superman is stronger when he stops holding back. I can prove that they are near equals when Superman is holding back.
I can prove that Superman is a lot faster in combat.
I can prove that hv and freeze breath will help Superman greatly if he employs them. Stop the criticism and let's debate. Anyone up for the debate?

Originally posted by h1a8
I can prove that Superman is stronger when he stops holding back. I can prove that they are near equals when Superman is holding back.
I can prove that Superman is a lot faster in combat.
I can prove that hv and freeze breath will help Superman greatly if he employs them. Stop the criticism and let's debate. Anyone up for the debate?

Be quiet H1.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130955/3539752-1323881-ba_survives_supes_punch.jpg

And he couldn't even move Adam out of the center city.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60473/1774993-basuperman29zi.jpg

A non holding back Superman. Read comics. An argument can be made that Adam was holding back but I don't even want to take it that far.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
2x everything, 2x strength 2x speed 2x stamina 2xexperience 2x everything



Adam could give him a really good fight even without this insane amp you given him. With it, he probably wins 10/10.

Originally posted by h1a8
I can prove that Superman is stronger when he stops holding back. I can prove that they are near equals when Superman is holding back.
I can prove that Superman is a lot faster in combat.
I can prove that hv and freeze breath will help Superman greatly if he employs them. Stop the criticism and let's debate. Anyone up for the debate? http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/didnt-read-lol-gif-6.gif

Superman wins and it isn't even close. Eat this phucking nerds.

uhuh

Originally posted by carver9
Be quiet H1.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130955/3539752-1323881-ba_survives_supes_punch.jpg

And he couldn't even move Adam out of the center city.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60473/1774993-basuperman29zi.jpg

A non holding back Superman. Read comics. An argument can be made that Adam was holding back but I don't even want to take it that far. Like I said I can PROVE that Superman is near equals in strength when he is holding back and a lot stronger when he isn't. Holding back or not Superman is much faster in combat and has far better reflexes. I can prove all of this.

Originally posted by Star428
Adam could give him a really good fight even without this insane amp you given him. With it, he probably wins 10/10. in a forum fight Superman will decimate BA with ease. He is much faster, with greater reflexes, and with exceptional range powers. If Superman let's loose then it's spite for normal BA and just a stomp for 2x BA.

Originally posted by h1a8
Like I said I can PROVE that Superman is near equals in strength when he is holding back and a lot stronger when he isn't. Holding back or not Superman is much faster in combat and has far better reflexes. I can prove all of this.

He wasn't holding back in that fight though.

Originally posted by carver9
He wasn't holding back in that fight though. Not only there are various levels of holding back but Superman holds back both consciously AND subconsciously. Letting go a little consciously (as in this scan) is only a small amp. The huge amp is when he let's go subconsciously. In OWAW and DOS, Superman couldn't tap into his subconscious to release those blocks without meditation and training or being under great duress.
So by Superman currently being able to release those blocks at will to whatever level he wants then he can match or exceed 2x BA in the strength department. The Speed department has Superman already winning by a lot. And the ranged powers give Superman still a great advantage.

Originally posted by carver9
Be quiet H1.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130955/3539752-1323881-ba_survives_supes_punch.jpg

And he couldn't even move Adam out of the center city.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60473/1774993-basuperman29zi.jpg

A non holding back Superman. Read comics. An argument can be made that Adam was holding back but I don't even want to take it that far.
How many times are you going to be wrong about that? Superman was going to end that fight in one punch when he actually stopped holding back.

Adam wins here of course.

Originally posted by carver9
He wasn't holding back in that fight though.
Of course he was. He wasn't "holding back" as much he does against humans.

When Adam threatened that woman, he stopped holding back. Adam conceded the fight then and there.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course he was. He wasn't "holding back" as much he does against humans.

When Adam threatened that woman, he stopped holding back. Adam conceded the fight then and there.

Exactly. Carver is twisting shit again.

Adam wins.

H1, shut up.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Adam wins.

H1, shut up.

Id give the win to Superman against normal Black Adam almost every time, but against a 2x Ampe BA, no I have to side with him to beat Superman in the end. Supes does rise to the occasion when fighting superior powered foes, but I still dont see him taking this Black Adam more than not.

Originally posted by h1a8
Not only there are various levels of holding back but Superman holds back both consciously AND subconsciously. Letting go a little consciously (as in this scan) is only a small amp. The huge amp is when he let's go subconsciously. In OWAW and DOS, Superman couldn't tap into his subconscious to release those blocks without meditation and training or being under great duress.
So by Superman currently being able to release those blocks at will to whatever level he wants then he can match or exceed 2x BA in the strength department. The Speed department has Superman already winning by a lot. And the ranged powers give Superman still a great advantage.

Gibberish.

Talk about stacking the deck. With the stipulations as per the op, this is a horror-stomp for BA.

Originally posted by h1a8
Not only there are various levels of holding back but Superman holds back both consciously AND subconsciously. Letting go a little consciously (as in this scan) is only a small amp. The huge amp is when he let's go subconsciously. In OWAW and DOS, Superman couldn't tap into his subconscious to release those blocks without meditation and training or being under great duress.
So by Superman currently being able to release those blocks at will to whatever level he wants then he can match or exceed 2x BA in the strength department. The Speed department has Superman already winning by a lot. And the ranged powers give Superman still a great advantage.



Prove there are various levels of holding back.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Superman wins and it isn't even close. Eat this phucking nerds.

uhuh



The h1 virus is spreading people, he vaccinated ASAP.

Superman's advantages:
Speed
Better reflexes
HV as a long range attack
Freeze breath as a slowing down tactic.
Ability to vibrate through attacks.

BAs advantages
Strength (unless superman let's loose completely as in OWAW).

The Speed and reflex advantage will help Superman get far more hits on BA than he gets on him. This will offset the strength advantage. Adding in hv and freeze breath (to Slightly slow BAs motion) then Superman wins this handily. If Superman chooses to use his intangibility ability to evade attacks then that adds even more to Superman winning.

Superman isn't dumb. If he realizes that BA is twice as powerful then he will turn it up and fight smarter (using speed to his advantage, hv as a long range tactic, freeze breath to slow BA down slightly, using his ability to drop his mental blocks to increase his strength, use intangibility to avoid attacks, etc).

Most are only considering strength in comic fights (which is the least important advantage when one character is within a couple times stronger). Superman is more than 2x stronger than Thor but if speed was equalized Thor would beat Superman for the majority. I can name many comic fights where the physically weaker can beat the stronger by using other advantages.

You forget he's now 2x as magical, with magic being another advantage.

Why would ice slow him down (even slightly)? At the speeds these guys move at, and at their strength levels, moving through ice would not slow them down in the slightest.

I mean, if you encased me in cobwebs, it's not going to slow me down at all. You'd have to really REALLY pour it on, and even then, it's doubtful.

Not sure how intangibility affects magic, seeing as by definition it breaks the laws of physics.

Superman may not be dumb....but BA also has 2x the Wisdom he previously had. Not to mention, 2x the durability (so his fists are now 2x as hard etc).

2 times the fanboy fun.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You forget he's now 2x as magical, with magic being another advantage.

Why would ice slow him down (even slightly)? At the speeds these guys move at, and at their strength levels, moving through ice would not slow them down in the slightest.

I mean, if you encased me in cobwebs, it's not going to slow me down at all. You'd have to really REALLY pour it on, and even then, it's doubtful.

Not sure how intangibility affects magic, seeing as by definition it breaks the laws of physics.

Superman may not be dumb....but BA also has 2x the Wisdom he previously had. Not to mention, 2x the durability (so his fists are now 2x as hard etc).

1. Ice can be any degree of cold and hardness. For example, ice, if cold enough, can be harder than steel. Also Supermans freeze breath has frozen peers for more than a minute. It's fair to say that his freeze breath could at least reduce BAs speed by 50% for approximately a few moments.

2. There is no such thing as 2x the magic. Magic is magic. It's a signature only. It's the power behind the magic that counts, not the signature. Being twice as strong then BA can affect Superman twice as much as usual.

3. BA has no feats of affecting intangible beings. I seen several instances of magical beings failing to affect intangible beings with physical attacks.

4. Superman still has speed, hv, and ability to drop mental blocks further. BA has double the durability but that doesn't mean "harder" or that Superman's hv or fists won't hurt him significantly . The fact that Superman will hit BA far more times than the other way around proves that strength and durability increases are nullified.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Ice can be any degree of cold and hardness. For example, ice, if cold enough, can be harder than steel. Also Supermans freeze breath has frozen peers for more than a minute. It's fair to say that his freeze breath could at least reduce BAs speed by 50% for approximately a few moments.

2. There is no such thing as 2x the magic. Magic is magic. It's a signature only. It's the power behind the magic that counts, not the signature. Being twice as strong then BA can affect Superman twice as much as usual.

3. BA has no feats of affecting intangible beings. I seen several instances of magical beings failing to affect intangible beings with physical attacks.

4. Superman still has speed, hv, and ability to drop mental blocks further. BA has double the durability but that doesn't mean "harder" or that Superman's hv or fists won't hurt him significantly . The fact that Superman will hit BA far more times than the other way around proves that strength and durability increases are nullified.

1. So proof that Superman's breath is harder than steel? Not that it matters, as BA unamped has torn through steel like paper before - and now, he is 2x. So no, it is NOT fair to say what you say.

2. You forgett his lightning. Which will be 2x as potent, even though the energy it kicks out is the same (see Martian Manhunter).

3. Post them. We need to see if they are comparable magicians.

4. Read the OP. He is 2x everything. Everything for me including hardness, toughness etc.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/4/43640/1116947-page08.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/4/43640/1116949-page09.jpg

Black Adam already have enough strength to rip through an abstract without the amp.

And rip the head off of Amazo. A JLA fighting being.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128548/2506374-594237_baama_super.jpg

Fight the entirety of the JSA by himself.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2952665-ba+vs+jsa+2.jpg

This is him without a 2 times amp. Imagine giving him an amp of this magnitude. Be quiet H1.

Does anyone have thar scan where Adam was punched so hard it sent him flying to another planet and he got up like nothing happened?

OWAW Superman wins.

Is this OWAW Supes? Then yea, lol!

OWAW Mindset Superman would be spite tbh.

Adam wins.

H1, shut up.

Are there any instances of Superman not holding back?
If so, what would they be?

1. Superman fighting DOS Doomsday?
2. Eclipsed Superman?
3. OWAW mind set Superman?
4. Max Lord controlled Superman?

This will help us to determine a Superman that is not holding back
and give us an idea of if he could go up against BA at this level.
What's funny is that H1A8 claimed that HV wouldn't work against
BA, but now he's arguing that it would.

Originally posted by Stoic
Are there any instances of Superman not holding back?
If so, what would they be?

1. Superman fighting DOS Doomsday?
2. Eclipsed Superman?
3. OWAW mind set Superman?
4. Max Lord controlled Superman?

This will help us to determine a Superman that is not holding back
and give us an idea of if he could go up against BA at this level.
What's funny is that H1A8 claimed that HV wouldn't work against
BA, but now he's arguing that it would.

I would say everything depends on his mindset and the situation.

1. Was the Byrne era Superman who was, compared to later, a tier or two lower powerwise. Anyway, he was able to go up to the Superman tier once he had to against DD. Superman here starts as mid Herald and goes up to HH or a notch above in the end.

2. Eclipse Superman should be on the level of a holding back or even below this level, as Superman subconsciously always fights for control. I would say that this would be HH or low Trans.

3. OWAW Superman was the first and sans FC the only time we saw a calm, concentrated and focused Superman who used his powers to the fullest, strategicaly. He is the true non holding back Superman and max high trans or above the Trans Tier.

4. Max Lord controlled Superman was a raging beast and even though he might have put more power into his punches than usual he didn't had the focus and control he had during OWAW and thus i would say no, he is a handicapped Superman and not the true all out Superman. He would be low Trans to mid Trans.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I would say everything depends on his mindset and the situation.

1. Was the Byrne era Superman who was, compared to later, a tier or two lower powerwise. Anyway, he was able to go up to the Superman tier once he had to against DD. Superman here starts as mid Herald and goes up to HH or a notch above in the end.

2. Eclipse Superman should be on the level of a holding back or even below this level, as Superman subconsciously always fights for control. I would say that this would be HH or low Trans.

3. OWAW Superman was the first and sans FC the only time we saw a calm, concentrated and focused Superman who used his powers to the fullest, strategicaly. He is the true non holding back Superman and max high trans or above the Trans Tier.

4. Max Lord controlled Superman was a raging beast and even though he might have put more power into his punches than usual he didn't had the focus and control he had during OWAW and thus i would say no, he is a handicapped Superman and not the true all out Superman. He would be low Trans to mid Trans.


He's not a ****ing trans! You people are brain dead.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I would say everything depends on his mindset and the situation.

1. Was the Byrne era Superman who was, compared to later, a tier or two lower powerwise. Anyway, he was able to go up to the Superman tier once he had to against DD. Superman here starts as mid Herald and goes up to HH or a notch above in the end.

2. Eclipse Superman should be on the level of a holding back or even below this level, as Superman subconsciously always fights for control. I would say that this would be HH or low Trans.

3. OWAW Superman was the first and sans FC the only time we saw a calm, concentrated and focused Superman who used his powers to the fullest, strategicaly. He is the true non holding back Superman and max high trans or above the Trans Tier.

4. Max Lord controlled Superman was a raging beast and even though he might have put more power into his punches than usual he didn't had the focus and control he had during OWAW and thus i would say no, he is a handicapped Superman and not the true all out Superman. He would be low Trans to mid Trans.

And a raging Black Adam fought heralds like MM, Guy, WW, and trans like Alan Scott. And has fought Dr Fate.

So a raging BA is trans, and a 2x amped BA is......?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I would say everything depends on his mindset and the situation.

1. Was the Byrne era Superman who was, compared to later, a tier or two lower powerwise. Anyway, he was able to go up to the Superman tier once he had to against DD. Superman here starts as mid Herald and goes up to HH or a notch above in the end.

2. Eclipse Superman should be on the level of a holding back or even below this level, as Superman subconsciously always fights for control. I would say that this would be HH or low Trans.

3. OWAW Superman was the first and sans FC the only time we saw a calm, concentrated and focused Superman who used his powers to the fullest, strategicaly. He is the true non holding back Superman and max high trans or above the Trans Tier.

4. Max Lord controlled Superman was a raging beast and even though he might have put more power into his punches than usual he didn't had the focus and control he had during OWAW and thus i would say no, he is a handicapped Superman and not the true all out Superman. He would be low Trans to mid Trans.

The only guy that I can truly say is a mirror image of BA physically is Captain Marvel. Superman while eclipsed fought him in a bid to take over Captain Marvel's body. He was unable to do this, and Marvel appeared to be his physical equal. He was even seen palming what appeared to be Superman's best Sunday punch. Is there any proof at all to prove that Superman was in control at all? He appeared to be fully eclipsed, and there was no sign at all that Kal-El was in the driver's seat. He appeared to be going all out from where I stood.

What I believe we saw, was Superman's body devoid of Kal-El going all out. If, that was a going all out Superman breaking even with Captain Marvel who was also going all out to avoid losing his body, how would Superman ever hope to defeat Black Adam coming in with double the stats?

Originally posted by Stoic
The only guy that I can truly say is a mirror image of BA physically is Captain Marvel. Superman while eclipsed fought him in a bid to take over Captain Marvel's body. He was unable to do this, and Marvel appeared to be his physical equal. He was even seen palming what appeared to be Superman's best Sunday punch. Is there any proof at all to prove that Superman was in control at all? He appeared to be fully eclipsed, and there was no sign at all that Kal-El was in the driver's seat. He appeared to be going all out from where I stood.

What I believe we saw, was Superman's body devoid of Kal-El going all out. If, that was a going all out Superman breaking even with Captain Marvel who was also going all out to avoid losing his body, how would Superman ever hope to defeat Black Adam coming in with double the stats?

Did you see the Black Adam vs Superman fight? Overall, don't listen to Prof, you already experienced how he is when it comes to Supes.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And a raging Black Adam fought heralds like MM, Guy, WW, and trans like Alan Scott. And has fought Dr Fate.

So a raging BA is trans, and a 2x amped BA is......?

And he hold his own which is impressive. I agree that he was there low Trans, even though many tried to reason with him. With a double amp he would be mid to high Trans. Though Superman in his OWAW mindset oneshotted probes that beat teams of HH and were HH, trans or some even low Skyfather.


Originally posted by Stoic
The only guy that I can truly say is a mirror image of BA physically is Captain Marvel. Superman while eclipsed fought him in a bid to take over Captain Marvel's body. He was unable to do this, and Marvel appeared to be his physical equal. He was even seen palming what appeared to be Superman's best Sunday punch. Is there any proof at all to prove that Superman was in control at all? He appeared to be fully eclipsed, and there was no sign at all that Kal-El was in the driver's seat. He appeared to be going all out from where I stood.

What I believe we saw, was Superman's body devoid of Kal-El going all out. If, that was a going all out Superman breaking even with Captain Marvel who was also going all out to avoid losing his body, how would Superman ever hope to defeat Black Adam coming in with double the stats?

If someone controlls Superman, he fights for control, if he is not in the body it's not Superman, it's someone else who uses his body, so never all out and what Superman would be. This is rather simple, mindcontrolled chars are handicapped, they lack the experience, focus or whatever traits make this char unique. It's not about powersets.

If you want to believe it sure, go ahead. We have a direct showing of an all out, not mindcontrolled, and focused Superman, who was treating Probes, that were able to beat whole Superhero Teams, some singlehanded 100000 daxamites and were at the very least, if you feel like lowballing, High Herald and most likely in the Trans to low Skyfather tier. OWAW mindset Superman oneshotted them.

So, if we compare those two Supermen we have two things that are clear.

Eclipso, controlled, Superman was far below OWAW Mindset Superman and as thus not on the powerlevel of an all out Superman, even if Eclipso believed he uses the body to the best effect.
And, as this wasn't an truly all out Superman who went even with Cap, Black Adam would need an 10 fold increase to compete with this version.

Originally posted by carver9
Did you see the Black Adam vs Superman fight? Overall, don't listen to Prof, you already experienced how he is when it comes to Supes.

I saw it, but there was no true winner in that battle. At least when Superman fought Captain Marvel, we were given several scenes to really compare them physically. Superman was eclipsed, so Marvel wasn't holding back to the extent that he would have been if he were fighting Kal-El. That fight was really something that people should take a closer look at.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
And he hold his own which is impressive. I agree that he was there low Trans, even though many tried to reason with him. With a double amp he would be mid to high Trans. Though Superman in his OWAW mindset oneshotted probes that beat teams of HH and were HH, trans or some even low Skyfather.


But then, you'd have to show they were the same standard.

At least we know Alan is Alan, MM is MM etc.

Superman is a HERALD class character. Surfer would kick his ass. Thanks.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Superman is a HERALD class character. Surfer would kick his ass. Thanks.

I think your life would become a lot easier if you just put fan boys on ignore.

As for this thread its spite.

Originally posted by Facee
I think your life would become a lot easier if you just put fan boys on ignore.

As for this thread its spite.

At the rate the h1 infection is going, I might end up putting have the board on ignore.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
And he hold his own which is impressive. I agree that he was there low Trans, even though many tried to reason with him. With a double amp he would be mid to high Trans. Though Superman in his OWAW mindset oneshotted probes that beat teams of HH and were HH, trans or some even low Skyfather.




If someone controlls Superman, he fights for control, if he is not in the body it's not Superman, it's someone else who uses his body, so never all out and what Superman would be. This is rather simple, mindcontrolled chars are handicapped, they lack the experience, focus or whatever traits make this char unique. It's not about powersets.

If you want to believe it sure, go ahead. We have a direct showing of an all out, not mindcontrolled, and focused Superman, who was treating Probes, that were able to beat whole Superhero Teams, some singlehanded 100000 daxamites and were at the very least, if you feel like lowballing, High Herald and most likely in the Trans to low Skyfather tier. OWAW mindset Superman oneshotted them.

So, if we compare those two Supermen we have two things that are clear.

Eclipso, controlled, Superman was far below OWAW Mindset Superman and as thus not on the powerlevel of an all out Superman, even if Eclipso believed he uses the body to the best effect.
And, as this wasn't an truly all out Superman who went even with Cap, Black Adam would need an 10 fold increase to compete with this version.

This brings up another question. Could the Probes have beaten groups of Low to High Herald (most being low)? We have no idea how a battle which pits Wonder Woman against Firelord would actually go. This is not to low ball, but an attempt to place things in a clearer perspective. Anyone can jump out of the bushes and make claims that Superman is an Odin level character while not holding back, but where is the proof of this? Who has he fought that would make a non holding back Surfer willing to use his full range of powers look like a wimp?

It's not that simple to just jump Superman over the High Herald tier because he has defeated character above that tier. Look at Thor for example. he has several showings of going well above his weight class, and winning. All the same, I really don't think that I am low balling Superman for saying that he requires a lot of evidence to suggest that he is a tier or two above Black Adam instead of being in the same tier.

Originally posted by Facee
I think your life would become a lot easier if you just put fan boys on ignore.

As for this thread its spite.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
At the rate the h1 infection is going, I might end up putting have the board on ignore.

No idea who h1 is ? I must have put him on ignore a long time ago. I put anyone who is biased on ignore.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. So proof that Superman's breath is harder than steel? Not that it matters, as BA unamped has torn through steel like paper before - and now, he is 2x. So no, it is NOT fair to say what you say.

2. You forgett his lightning. Which will be 2x as potent, even though the energy it kicks out is the same (see Martian Manhunter).

3. Post them. We need to see if they are comparable magicians.

4. Read the OP. He is 2x everything. Everything for me including hardness, toughness etc.


1. I said ice can be harder than steel. I didn't say Superman's ice was hard AS steel. The implication was HARDER and not as hard. Superman has frozen beings that can rip through steel like tissue paper. So it's fair to assume that it can slow down BA quite a bit.

2. BA doesn't have a lightning attack. Are you referring to lightning on his fists? This is all moot since I said BA attacks will be twice as effective.

3. BA has no feats affecting
the intangible with mere punches. Thus he can't. Do you have any evidence that he can?

4. So you are taking the OP literally? So BA is twice as soft and twice as hard.
Anyway, it's irrelevant since Superman can harm him, hit him far more times than the other way around, have ranged powers that can win without Superman getting touched, has intangible abilities, etc.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
OWAW Mindset Superman would be spite tbh. I'm not Superman, silly.

Originally posted by Stoic
This brings up another question. Could the Probes have beaten groups of Low to High Herald (most being low)? We have no idea how a battle which pits Wonder Woman against Firelord would actually go. This is not to low ball, but an attempt to place things in a clearer perspective. Anyone can jump out of the bushes and make claims that Superman is an Odin level character while not holding back, but where is the proof of this? Who has he fought that would make a non holding back Surfer willing to use his full range of powers look like a wimp?

It's not that simple to just jump Superman over the High Herald tier because he has defeated character above that tier. Look at Thor for example. he has several showings of going well above his weight class, and winning. All the same, I really don't think that I am low balling Superman for saying that he requires a lot of evidence to suggest that he is a tier or two above Black Adam instead of being in the same tier.
why is being 2x stronger than someone an automatic stomp.
Cap and Batman can beat characters more than twice as powerful as them. This is due to skill and speed. speed is greater than skill anyday of the week. Superman is much faster than BA. Superman has hv and freeze breath. This more than compensates for being twice as powerful (if you believe that).

People are debating blindly here. Superman is more than twice as powerful as Thor and Surfer yet many have arguments that they can beat Superman due to versatility.

Am I the only one who wants h1 to shut up?

Originally posted by long pig
Am I the only one who wants h1 to shut up? So you believe that if a character is twice as strong but the weaker character has the speed advantage and long range attacks then it's a stomp for the stronger?

Originally posted by Stoic
This brings up another question. Could the Probes have beaten groups of Low to High Herald (most being low)? We have no idea how a battle which pits Wonder Woman against Firelord would actually go. This is not to low ball, but an attempt to place things in a clearer perspective. Anyone can jump out of the bushes and make claims that Superman is an Odin level character while not holding back, but where is the proof of this? Who has he fought that would make a non holding back Surfer willing to use his full range of powers look like a wimp?

It's not that simple to just jump Superman over the High Herald tier because he has defeated character above that tier. Look at Thor for example. he has several showings of going well above his weight class, and winning. All the same, I really don't think that I am low balling Superman for saying that he requires a lot of evidence to suggest that he is a tier or two above Black Adam instead of being in the same tier. Yeah, a single probe beat Green Lantern, Flash, Manhunter, Plastic Man, Aquaman and Hawkgirl like they were light work and was never in trouble.
Another probe destroyed General Zod, Ignition, The Titans, and the Outsiders.

Superman was slapping them in half like they were made of paper.

Darkseid is above the gods, and above Monitors, and above Lords of Order and Chaos and Superman is above him.
Doomsday was above Darkseid, and even Guardians of the Universe and Superman was above him.


etc etc.

Superman putting his mind to task is debatable the most unstoppable force in the DCU.

Originally posted by h1a8
why is being 2x stronger than someone an automatic stomp.
Cap and Batman can beat characters more than twice as powerful as them. This is due to skill and speed. speed is greater than skill anyday of the week. Superman is much faster than BA. Superman has hv and freeze breath. This more than compensates for being twice as powerful (if you believe that).

People are debating blindly here. Superman is more than twice as powerful as Thor and Surfer yet many have arguments that they can beat Superman due to versatility.



Superman is not MUCH faster than Black Adam. That's non-sense. He has an edge yes but it's not a huge one. You obviously don't know much about Adam or Captain Marvel.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
2x everything, 2x strength 2x speed 2x stamina 2xexperience 2x everything

Y the amp? And which adam, old or new?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Y the amp? And which adam, old or new?
Possibly to root out the crazies?

@ Juntai.
A single Probe did exactly the same thing as a rogue Supergirl.

During WWiii, Black Adam embarrassed even more characters than that.

Darkseid is a subject that we shouldn't get into, because first we need to figure out who the real Darkseid actually is.

Has Superman, or Doomsday actually ever fought the true Darkseid?

You didn't really answer any of my questions, but instead jumped into pushing Superman beyond his tier without being objective, or considering all of the characters that have pushed him to his limits, or outright defeated him. In order for you to see the entire picture, you would also need to see that other well known High Heralds have also transcended their respective tier. Thor has a history of defeating characters that should have crushed him like a flea.

Originally posted by h1a8
why is being 2x stronger than someone an automatic stomp.
Cap and Batman can beat characters more than twice as powerful as them. This is due to skill and speed. speed is greater than skill anyday of the week. Superman is much faster than BA. Superman has hv and freeze breath. This more than compensates for being twice as powerful (if you believe that).

People are debating blindly here. Superman is more than twice as powerful as Thor and Surfer yet many have arguments that they can beat Superman due to versatility.

The only people that would be debating blindly, would be those that took anything that you're writing for face value. Black Adam has actually gone above his tier, but you don't seem to be willing to see this for the truth that it is. I also recall you saying that HV wouldn't hurt Black Adam, but here you are arguing the opposite. Double standard much?

Originally posted by Star428
Superman is not MUCH faster than Black Adam. That's non-sense. He has an edge yes but it's not a huge one. You obviously don't know much about Adam or Captain Marvel. Trust me, I know much more than you realize about those two characters. Do you know how fast BA is (combat wise)? His top speed in comics shown was Mach 500. That's fast as hell but less than 1 thousandth of the speed of light. If Superman only moved at 10% of the speed of light then he would more than hundreds of times faster. And if I used Superman's top speed shown it would be a horrific stomp.

Originally posted by h1a8
Trust me, I know much more than you and most people about those two characters. Do you know how fast BA is (combat wise)? His top speed in comics shown was Mach 500. That's fast as hell but less than 1 thousandth of the speed of light. If Superman only moved at 10% of the speed of light then he would more than hundreds of times faster. And if I used Superman's top speed shown it would be a horrific stomp.

Hmmm...prove it

Originally posted by h1a8
So you believe that if a character is twice as strong but the weaker character has the speed advantage and long range attacks then it's a stomp for the stronger? Shut up.

Originally posted by h1a8
Trust me, I know much more than you realize about those two characters. Do you know how fast BA is (combat wise)? His top speed in comics shown was Mach 500. That's fast as hell but less than 1 thousandth of the speed of light. If Superman only moved at 10% of the speed of light then he would more than hundreds of times faster. And if I used Superman's top speed shown it would be a horrific stomp.

Prove it. When has Superman ever speed blitzed a character comparable to Black Adam in a comic? Did this happen when he faced off against Captain Marvel? If so when, and in what comic?

H1, if it comes to light via proof that Adam can only move 1/1000 the speed of superman, I'll concede.

Originally posted by Stoic




The only people that would be debating blindly, would be those that took anything that you're writing for face value. Black Adam has actually gone above his tier, but you don't seem to be willing to see this for the truth that it is. I also recall you saying that HV wouldn't hurt Black Adam, but here you are arguing the opposite. Double standard much? When did Adam go out of his tier. What did he do actually? And what relevance does that have against someone faster than him? Time manipulation is the most unfair advantage in the universe. Speed is a form of time manipulation. Speed is greater than both strength and speed. Flash can literally stomp beings millions of times stronger. Cap can beat beings several times stronger. Surfer can too.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yeah, a single probe beat Green Lantern, Flash, Manhunter, Plastic Man, Aquaman and Hawkgirl like they were light work and was never in trouble.
Another probe destroyed General Zod, Ignition, The Titans, and the Outsiders.

Superman was slapping them in half like they were made of paper.

Darkseid is above the gods, and above Monitors, and above Lords of Order and Chaos and Superman is above him.
Doomsday was above Darkseid, and even Guardians of the Universe and Superman was above him.


etc etc.

Superman putting his mind to task is debatable the most unstoppable force in the DCU.

QFT

Originally posted by Stoic
@ Juntai.
A single Probe did exactly the same thing as a rogue Supergirl.

During WWiii, Black Adam embarrassed even more characters than that.

Darkseid is a subject that we shouldn't get into, because first we need to figure out who the real Darkseid actually is.

Has Superman, or Doomsday actually ever fought the true Darkseid?

You didn't really answer any of my questions, but instead jumped into pushing Superman beyond his tier without being objective, or considering all of the characters that have pushed him to his limits, or outright defeated him. In order for you to see the entire picture, you would also need to see that other well known High Heralds have also transcended their respective tier. Thor has a history of defeating characters that should have crushed him like a flea.

Interestingly enough, Superman also stopped rogue Supergirl.

And the entire point of 52, including WW3, was that it was the "Year Without Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman", and specifically a yearlong snapshot of how difficult life is if he wasn't there to stop such threats witnessed during the event.

It's not a matter of Superman trancending his tier. His story specifically is that is that he is always that strong, and chooses to hold back his power and live on Earth instead. A god among men.

People like Doomsday, Darkseid, Imperiex, gods and devils, and 5th dimension imps and Brainiac, etc, compose Superman's rogue gallery. It's very telling of his standing the universe.

Originally posted by long pig
H1, if it comes to light via proof that Adam can only move 1/1000 the speed of superman, I'll concede. When both are fighting at full capacity then you must concede. How can you give BA speed he's never shown? His limit was SHOWN to be Mach 500. Is Superman's limit around that? If you know of another showing that puts BA above Mach 500 then please show or state it. Otherwise you have no basis for saying that Superman isn't significantly faster.
If you are going off fights then most characters with speed conform to who they are fighting for the sake of the plot. Surfer against many, Superman against many, etc. Is Superman many times faster than Batman? Yes. Is grundy many times faster than Batman? No. hopefully you get my point.

Originally posted by h1a8
When did Adam go out of his tier. What did he do actually? And what relevance does that have against someone faster than him? Time manipulation is the most unfair advantage in the universe. Speed is a form of time manipulation. Speed is greater than both strength and speed. Flash can literally stomp beings millions of times stronger. Cap can beat beings several times stronger. Surfer can too.

Instead of ignoring the portion of the post that I wrote to Juntai go back and re-read it. This way, I won't have to write the same thing over again. Actually I'll just quote it.

Originally posted by Stoic
@ Juntai.
A single Probe did exactly the same thing as a rogue Supergirl.

During WWiii, Black Adam embarrassed even more characters than that.

Darkseid is a subject that we shouldn't get into, because first we need to figure out who the real Darkseid actually is.

Has Superman, or Doomsday actually ever fought the true Darkseid?

You didn't really answer any of my questions, but instead jumped into pushing Superman beyond his tier without being objective, or considering all of the characters that have pushed him to his limits, or outright defeated him. In order for you to see the entire picture, you would also need to see that other well known High Heralds have also transcended their respective tier. Thor has a history of defeating characters that should have crushed him like a flea.



The only people that would be debating blindly, would be those that took anything that you're writing for face value. Black Adam has actually gone above his tier, but you don't seem to be willing to see this for the truth that it is. I also recall you saying that HV wouldn't hurt Black Adam, but here you are arguing the opposite. Double standard much?

Why hasn't superman ever blitzed him? He didn't seem to have the ability to do so.

Originally posted by Juntai
Interestingly enough, Superman also stopped rogue Supergirl.

And the entire point of 52, including WW3, was that it was the "Year Without Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman", and specifically a yearlong snapshot of how difficult life is if he wasn't there to stop such threats witnessed during the event.

It's not a matter of Superman trancending his tier. His story specifically is that is that he is always that strong, and chooses to hold back his power and live on Earth instead. A god among men.

People like Doomsday, Darkseid, Imperiex, gods and devils, and 5th dimension imps and Brainiac, etc, compose Superman's rogue gallery. It's very telling of his standing the universe.

Even if he held back, this would not reduce his durability, and yet we have seen Superman getting knocked out by far less than Thanos, not to mention a being more powerful than the Titan (Odin). Yet there we have it, apparently people vastly weaker than he is can KO him. Or what are you saying? is he faking being knocked out by these supposed inferior beings for shits and giggles? The Hulk holds back as well for fear of killing his opponents, but I'm not going to say that because he has near unlimited potential that he's going to walk around unrestrained knocking out Galactus, and playing ping pong with Odin's skull.

How far are people willing to push this thing with Superman? We saw Helspont slap the mess out of Superman, and even if he were holding back, it as I mentioned, wouldn't have effected his durability. Unless Helspont is also an Odin level character? i know that's not the truth, but we need a way of correcting things that make little sense. I for one can not see what the problem is with Superman being in the High Herald tier?

Originally posted by long pig
Why hasn't superman ever blitzed him? He didn't seem to have the ability to do so.

He was being cocky. He wanted to be tagged on the chin.

Originally posted by Stoic
Even if he held back, this would not reduce his durability, and yet we have seen Superman getting knocked out by far less than Thanos, not to mention a being more powerful than the Titan (Odin). Yet there we have it, apparently people vastly weaker than he is can KO him. Or what are you saying? is he faking being knocked out by these supposed inferior beings for shits and giggles? The Hulk holds back as well for fear of killing his opponents, but I'm not going to say that because he has near unlimited potential that he's going to walk around unrestrained knocking out Galactus, and playing ping pong with Odin's skull.

How far are people willing to push this thing with Superman? We saw Helspont slap the mess out of Superman, and even if he were holding back, it as I mentioned, wouldn't have effected his durability. Unless Helspont is also an Odin level character? i know that's not the truth, but we need a way of correcting things that make little sense. I for one can not see what the problem is with Superman being in the High Herald tier? Actually, it does.
Superman chooses his power, including durability.

Going back to your 52 reference, he was powerless the entire time, correct?
Regular human?

But you read Up Up and Away, correct?

Funny, the moment he decided to use power, there it was.
And then decided he was making himself powerless the entire time.

We should come up with a name for the reality denying disease superman fans seem to be infected with.

Supermania?

LOL. Obviously, you missed how nearly every Superman fan minus one or perhaps two has said Adam wins here. Looks like you're the one denying reality.

Or perhaps we should use when Superman actually did tussle with Black Adam?

Because, Superman said he didn't have to hold back.

He said his punches were like bombs going off.

That he holds back against other people, but he doesn't have to be as careful with Adam...




And then when he decided 'This ends now."

His next punch would have 'cracked the moon in half'.

This show what happens as he quickly scales how much he's holding back.

Originally posted by Juntai
Or perhaps we should use when Superman actually did tussle with Black Adam?

Because, Superman said he didn't have to hold back.

He said his punches were like bombs going off.

That he holds back against other people, but he doesn't have to be as careful with Adam...




And then when he decided 'This ends now."

His next punch would have 'cracked the moon in half'.

This show what happens as he quickly scales how much he's holding back.

He didn't hit BA with his punch that would have cracked the moon in half (hyperbole?), and we certainly have no idea if BA would have been able to take such a hit. I'm not saying that BA can beat Superman, because I really don't think he can, but with an amp of 2x base, I'm betting that BA would possess enough raw power to defeat Superman. If not, then Superman should have easily been able to defeat BA at base level.

Originally posted by Stoic
He didn't hit BA with his punch that would have cracked the moon in half (hyperbole?), and we certainly have no idea if BA would have been able to take such a hit. I'm not saying that BA can beat Superman, because I really don't think he can, but with an amp of 2x base, I'm betting that BA would possess enough raw power to defeat Superman. If not, then Superman should have easily been able to defeat BA at base level. Not hyperbole. It's been stated about Superman's striking power several times.
Said against Konvict as well once he took his measure and started fighting harder.
It was said against Infinity Man. etc.

This isn't even his upper end. I'm not sure why you'd even question that.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not hyperbole. It's been stated about Superman's striking power several times.
Said against Konvict as well once he took his measure and started fighting harder.
It was said against Infinity Man. etc.

This isn't even his upper end. I'm not sure why you'd even question that.

I know that it isn't hyperbole, but the statement could have been considered as such. Blue marvel has the power to crack the moon in half, and I regard Superman to be his superior, while remaining in the same tier. I can't see Black Adam beating Superman regularly, but if he were 2x base, I have no problem seeing him flattening Superman out.

This shouldn't come as a blow to Superman fans, just that he does have a limit, which I think has been reached here. He told the Infinity Man that if he hit anything for long enough that it would break, or some such. That could also be classified as a hyped up statement. The High Herald tier was made to contain guys on Superman's power level, which goes to show that he is very powerful. moving out of that level, means that we are talking about characters capable of wrecking teams of High Heralds. Monarch, Thanos, Superboy/man Prime, Synnar (Harcore Station), HP Doomsday, WB Hulk, etc come to mind.

Originally posted by long pig
Why hasn't superman ever blitzed him? He didn't seem to have the ability to do so. Superman rarely interacts with him at all, first of all.

But Superman is faster than Adam.

Adam on several occasions was overwhelmed by the speed of Jay Garrick.


Superman on the other hand goes step for step with Wally and Barry in and out of combat.


Remember, Flash is fast enough to see Superman attack, but he's not fast enough to do anything about it.


Before you or others post Barry saying 'those were for charity' and Superman being impressed by the speed of a human achieving a new level he hadn't seen yet, keep in mind that Superman has shown to be at least as fast on many many many occasions, and that the same character Barry also said himself that he knows Superman holds back his speed to match his own just to make him feel better.

Superman has outran both Wally and Impulse on foot. And he flies even faster than that.

Even so fast that Impulse couldn't see him move twice in one scene, and Superman also hopped to a different destination to help the Titans on an adventure in the middle of a few sentences they traded.

Originally posted by Stoic
I know that it isn't hyperbole, but the statement could have been considered as such. Blue marvel has the power to crack the moon in half, and I regard Superman to be his superior, while remaining in the same tier. I can't see Black Adam beating Superman regularly, but if he were 2x base, I have no problem seeing him flattening Superman out.

This shouldn't come as a blow to Superman fans, just that he does have a limit, which I think has been reached here. He told the Infinity Man that if he hit anything for long enough that it would break, or some such. That could also be classified as a hyped up statement. The High Herald tier was made to contain guys on Superman's power level, which goes to show that he is very powerful. moving out of that level, means that we are talking about characters capable of wrecking teams of High Heralds. Monarch, Thanos, Superboy/man Prime, Synnar (Harcore Station), HP Doomsday, WB Hulk, etc come to mind. And Superman has beaten Darkseid, and trapped him in the source wall. On another occasion was pissed off fighting someone else when Darkseid appeared, and Superman just flew in a circle real fast and beat him.

Kal was also is the one who stopped Superboy Prime's rampage, while standing in a field of kryptonite that affected only himself. Coincidentally, Superboy with half of Kal's DNA also wrecked shop on Prime a few times.

Superman also stopped Doomsday's first run, who was already so powerful a Guardian had to sacrifice himself to get him off of OA, and has Darkseid also ran from and feared he was lose to. -- something proven later in Hunter/Prey. Which is exactly why people believe Hunter Prey Doomsday was so impressive.


You see, you can keep naming guys that are team wreckers, like Doomsday, like Prime, like rogue Supergirl, etc, and he's already proven stronger than all of them. or like WW3 Adam, where not only has Superman been shown stronger than Adam before, but that the entire story was that the event happened specifically because Superman wasn't around.

Because he was busy being powerless, pretending to be human.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Obviously, you missed how nearly every Superman fan minus one or perhaps two has said Adam wins here. Looks like you're the one denying reality.

Average Superman vs 2x WW3 BA? Sure, BA wins. Superman in his OWAW Mindset, rapes him.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Hmmm...prove it Prove what? That BA tops out at Mach 500? I could show the scan proving it.

Want to point out that Zod took out 3 probes by himself.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove what? That BA tops out at Mach 500? I could show the scan proving it.

Jay was taking Black Adam speed and adding it to his own during that scene.

Scans? I though I have read every issue of OWAW, would like to see Zod against the Probes. The only showing I have is him and his team getting their ass handed to them.

Originally posted by Juntai
And Superman has beaten Darkseid, and trapped him in the source wall. On another occasion was pissed off fighting someone else when Darkseid appeared, and Superman just flew in a circle real fast and beat him.

Kal was also is the one who stopped Superboy Prime's rampage, while standing in a field of kryptonite that affected only himself. Coincidentally, Superboy with half of Kal's DNA also wrecked shop on Prime a few times.

Superman also stopped Doomsday's first run, who was already so powerful a Guardian had to sacrifice himself to get him off of OA, and has Darkseid also ran from and feared he was lose to. -- something proven later in Hunter/Prey. Which is exactly why people believe Hunter Prey Doomsday was so impressive.


You see, you can keep naming guys that are team wreckers, like Doomsday, like Prime, like rogue Supergirl, etc, and he's already proven stronger than all of them. or like WW3 Adam, where not only has Superman been shown stronger than Adam before, but that the entire story was that the event happened specifically because Superman wasn't around.

Because he was busy being powerless, pretending to be human.

Did Superman defeat the real Darkseid? Huge unknown.

HP Doomsday at his most powerful was well above Superman weight class.

Superboy Prime was intended to be above Superman. He even killed an elder version of the same character in that same scene that you are talking about while taking on Superman himself (weakened or not).

The things that you are bringing up can also be applied to other well known High Heralds as they too have defeated enemies well above their weight class. Should I place Thor in the Low-Mid Trans range, because of what he did during Blood & Thunder while not having the Power Gem? Of course not. We saw how a true Trans (Thanos) dealt with him.

Look at how Synnar took on Superman, Orion, J'onn, and a couple others during Hardcore Station. That's what power level a Trans tier character operates at. Unless you are saying that Superman was holding back against a universal menace that could take his best punches, and in turn flatten him out? All the same, Black Adam is not as powerful as Superman in any regard, but he can hang with him for a time at his base levels. He's 2x base in this thread, and there is no reason that he shouldn't win here IMO.

If Superman beats an Trans level or Skyfather char, or oneshots them, this will be used to lowball the chars. It won't be accepted as a legit feat for Superman.

What people don't understand is that Superman is not in the HH tier and you can't compare him to SS or Thor because he can be in this tier by choice and not power. Superman is in the tier he needs to be, more so than any other so called HH (by a fictional KMC tier) and eclipses the same tier people put him in if he choses too or the story requires it. And yes, his stories require it quite often compared to his so called peers like CM.

So no, Superman is not a HH, maybe if you take his low showings and disregard his highs.

Or to say it with words that matter more:
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermannexus3.jpg

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Average Superman vs 2x WW3 BA? Sure, BA wins. Superman in his OWAW Mindset, rapes him.



Probably. BUt OWAW Superman was being amped from sundip, correct? IMO, both Adam and Captain Marvel would be a toss up fight versus Superman assuming everyone was fighting at normal levels or not going all-out. Certainly a much better fight for him than Wonder Woman would be (which isn't really much of one at all, tbh).

Originally posted by Star428
Probably. BUt OWAW Superman was being amped from sundip, correct? IMO, both Adam and Captain Marvel would be a toss up fight versus Superman assuming everyone was fighting at normal levels or not going all-out. Certainly a much better fight for him than Wonder Woman would be (which isn't really much of one at all, tbh).

No, OWAW Superman after taking a sundip was possibly 100 times more powerful than his all out OWAW persona.

Originally posted by Stoic
Did Superman defeat the real Darkseid? Huge unknown.

HP Doomsday at his most powerful was well above Superman weight class.

Superboy Prime was intended to be above Superman. He even killed an elder version of the same character in that same scene that you are talking about while taking on Superman himself (weakened or not).

The things that you are bringing up can also be applied to other well known High Heralds as they too have defeated enemies well above their weight class. Should I place Thor in the Low-Mid Trans range, because of what he did during Blood & Thunder while not having the Power Gem? Of course not. We saw how a true Trans (Thanos) dealt with him.

Look at how Synnar took on Superman, Orion, J'onn, and a couple others during Hardcore Station. That's what power level a Trans tier character operates at. Unless you are saying that Superman was holding back against a universal menace that could take his best punches, and in turn flatten him out? All the same, Black Adam is not as powerful as Superman in any regard, but he can hang with him for a time at his base levels. He's 2x base in this thread, and there is no reason that he shouldn't win here IMO.

Yes, it was the real Darkseid. It led into the subsequent storylines that involved him getting free of the Source Wall, then him regaining the Omega Power, and eventually directly into the Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis.

Superman went toe to toe with Hunter Prey and eventually won via plot device, but Doomsday couldn't keep Superman down either. He also outlasted Darkseid in this story.

Synnar the architect of the universe? lol.



Superman beating these beings isn't him punching above his weight class. These aren't once in a lifetime events like Thor reaching outside of his.

What year did Superman beat Darkseid in Superman/Batman?
What year did Superman beat Darkseid over the soul of Steel?
When did Superman defeat Superboy Prime?
What year did Superman defeat Cythonna, the Kryptponian godess?
What year did Superman stop Imperiex?
What year did Superman stop Dominus?
What year did Superman beat Blaze, who eventually took over Hell?
What year did Superman wrestle Azmodel?
What year did Superman beat the god Apollo?
What year did Superman beat ---


You know, Thor's feats without being powered up just flat out don't measure up to Superman, let alone the laundry list of victories. It's just different brackets. He has to swing high against Superman's lows to even be near the same bracket.

Comparing Thor to Superman is like comparing Cyborg to Superman.

When was Blood and Thunder? 1993?

Thor or Surfer goes up against a god or high end cosmic, they're like ants.

Thanos goes against gods or high end cosmic, he get slapped down.

Superman goes up against gods or high end cosmic, he spins in a circle and wins.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
If Superman beats an Trans level or Skyfather char, or oneshots them, this will be used to lowball the chars. It won't be accepted as a legit feat for Superman.

What people don't understand is that Superman is not in the HH tier and you can't compare him to SS or Thor because he can be in this tier by choice and not power. Superman is in the tier he needs to be, more so than any other so called HH (by a fictional KMC tier) and eclipses the same tier people put him in if he choses too or the story requires it.

So no, Superman is not a HH, maybe if you take his low showings and disregard his highs.
]

This.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
No, OWAW Superman after taking a sundip was possibly 100 times more powerful than his all out OWAW persona.


100 times? You really believe that? Seems like u might be exaggerating a bit.

Originally posted by Star428
100 times? You really believe that? Seems like u might be exaggerating a bit.

It would be just a logical conclusion. Before the sundip Superman wasn't able to hold of the conduits from Warworld, Steel with the Entropy Aegis came in to help and he was able to hold them back from earth, till:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12524065

When Superman came back from his trip to the sun he pushed Warworld and those conduits with it back, while tanking everything Brainiac, with the power of Imperiex, the power of entropy itself, could dish out, he even pushed it against the force of those energies.

So if we assume that the Entropy Aegis is as powerful as OWAW Superman or maybe even a notch above him and it wasn't able to hold back those conduits because they became a 100 times stronger, how strong was Superman after the sundip if he could achieve what the Aegis couldn't?

Haha, yes. I never looked it at that way.

So yes, Superman was at least hundred times stronger than usual.

Superman does lose occasionally to guys in the herald bracket, but its his choice to even lower his power this much to begin with.

Just as Wally chose to not run full speed all the time and has been tagged by Batman and Green Arrow and Deathstroke and others on various occasions.

But on the forum, neither character are constricted to this.

These aren't 'powered up' versions, as the only catalyst to Wally running lightspeed or Superman vaulting way out of the herald bracket is as simple as the desire or need to do so, as he proves arc after arc after arc, year in and out.

Accomplishing the types of things Surfer or Thor might do once in a lifetime like it was just part of the job.

...he choose to lose. WTF man.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman does lose occasionally to guys in the herald bracket, but its his choice to even lower his power this much to begin with.

Just as Wally chose to not run full speed all the time and has been tagged by Batman and Green Arrow and Deathstroke and others on various occasions.

But on the forum, neither character are constricted to this.

These aren't 'powered up' versions, as the only catalyst to Wally running lightspeed or Superman vaulting way out of the herald bracket is as simple as the desire or need to do so, as he proves arc after arc after arc, year in and out.

Accomplishing the types of things Surfer or Thor might do once in a lifetime like it was just part of the job.

I would love to know what you think would happen if an unbound Superman were ever to face a well fed Galactus with a CIS off clause for both of them.

Originally posted by carver9
...he choose to lose. WTF man. No, he chooses to lower his power, and occasionally is surprised.
Then at the end of the day, he's going to crank it up and win anyways.

Just as Mxy said when Superman figured out how to beat Vyndktvx, "I told you, Superman always wins."

He can be slowed, but not stopped.

Originally posted by carver9
...he choose to lose. WTF man.

This is a common thing, do you read Superman comics?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is a common thing, do you read Superman comics? Indeed, and not only is it often apparent, but occasionally it's specifically written in.

JLA Classified 15.
The last issue of New Maps of Hell


An Alien was screwing with the minds of the entire JLA and has been making every one of them look real bad...


Alien: Are you read for more? (To Superman who's on the ground)
Supes: Actually, I think I'm ready to stop playing with you. (who starts getting up, while all the rest of the Justice League are unconscious on the ground.)

Alien: Playing? I've beaten you half to death.

Supes: Not even close. I needed to measure your power and get a handle on what's really happening here. And that took time. So I just soaked up your punches while I worked it all out.


Supes: You see I'm not human. My eyes, for instance, work very diferently. There was a flicker on everything. All the surfaces in here, including yours, cycle 512 times a second. The others would never see that. But I do. Just as I can see and hear all the communications traffic moving around. Finding the frequencies took time.

Supes: I am a scientists son of the House of El. And I am a reporter. And while I may not be as quick at pattern recognition as my wife, I'm not completely stupid. Given time, I can find my way into any story. And this is just a story. Make-believe. You pushed your little stunt just a hair too far, and I saw through it.

Supes: You're strong. Your strategy programming is clever and complex. And you have absolutely no concept of the sanctity of organic life. (Supes then uses heat vision to burn off the aliens right arm.)

Supes: All these things make you a powerful, frightening enemy. But I'm Superman. And everything that's making your stunt work is broadcasting at 18 terahertz. You ever heard white noise at 18 terahertz?

The next pannel is of Supes open mouthed.. and the aliens face melting..

Its illusions fall away and it turns out to be a giant robot.. Superman punches its chest and detonates it.


He not only decided to sit there and take all the punches and get beat up, but he let his entire team be sacrificed to it too, then just decided he was done playing around and won by himself.

And this was just one of many many examples of him doing this very thing.

Superman is a dick.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
It would be just a logical conclusion. Before the sundip Superman wasn't able to hold of the conduits from Warworld, Steel with the Entropy Aegis came in to help and he was able to hold them back from earth, till:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12524065

When Superman came back from his trip to the sun he pushed Warworld and those conduits with it back, while tanking everything Brainiac, with the power of Imperiex, the power of entropy itself, could dish out, he even pushed it against the force of those energies.

So if we assume that the Entropy Aegis is as powerful as OWAW Superman or maybe even a notch above him and it wasn't able to hold back those conduits because they became a 100 times stronger, how strong was Superman after the sundip if he could achieve what the Aegis couldn't?


OK. Point conceded.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. I said ice can be harder than steel. I didn't say Superman's ice was hard AS steel. The implication was HARDER and not as hard. Superman has frozen beings that can rip through steel like tissue paper. So it's fair to assume that it can slow down BA quite a bit.

2. BA doesn't have a lightning attack. Are you referring to lightning on his fists? This is all moot since I said BA attacks will be twice as effective.

3. BA has no feats affecting
the intangible with mere punches. Thus he can't. Do you have any evidence that he can?

4. So you are taking the OP literally? So BA is twice as soft and twice as hard.
Anyway, it's irrelevant since Superman can harm him, hit him far more times than the other way around, have ranged powers that can win without Superman getting touched, has intangible abilities, etc.

1. Then post it.

2. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104108/3589684-racerx-ba4-p18.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1037242-racerx_wwiiib1_p06.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111125382/3725999-2334112200-Black.jpg

3. 'I can't answer your request for proof, so will ignore it and ask YOU for proof'. Classic. Remember, I asked for magical beings failing to affect intangible beings.

4. HV? Won't do a thing.

Here, a bloodlusted PG fires HV at a weakened Black Adam:
http://i.imgur.com/FJ2n0IS.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104108/3589682-05.jpg

He literally walks through it.

This is what a non bloodlusted PG can do:
http://i.imgur.com/6GZM98Q.png

That's KC Superman.

In this thread, we have a full power BA (so four times what you saw in that scan) who is THEN amped a further two times.

Originally posted by h1a8
When both are fighting at full capacity then you must concede. How can you give BA speed he's never shown? His limit was SHOWN to be Mach 500. Is Superman's limit around that? If you know of another showing that puts BA above Mach 500 then please show or state it. Otherwise you have no basis for saying that Superman isn't significantly faster.
If you are going off fights then most characters with speed conform to who they are fighting for the sake of the plot. Surfer against many, Superman against many, etc. Is Superman many times faster than Batman? Yes. Is grundy many times faster than Batman? No. hopefully you get my point.

http://i.imgur.com/3jVv0Zx.jpg

I do love how you ask others for proof, but post none of your own.

That scan, incidentally, shows that the perimeter field could withstand a direct asteroid hit which killed the dinos.

That asteroid outputted 4.2 x 10^23 Joules of energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater)

So let's be generous, and say BA was outputting that amount of energy when he hit it (when he was obviously > that).

ASsume he is 100kg.

So using KE = 1/2mv^2, that means his velocity was ~91.7billion m/sec. So a bit more than Mach 500, no?

And he's now 2x that.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. I said ice can be harder than steel. I didn't say Superman's ice was hard AS steel. The implication was HARDER and not as hard. Superman has frozen beings that can rip through steel like tissue paper. So it's fair to assume that it can slow down BA quite a bit.



Funny, it didn't slow down WW too much and she's a Hell of a lot weaker than Adam.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, he chooses to lower his power, and occasionally is surprised.
Then at the end of the day, he's going to crank it up and win anyways.

Just as Mxy said when Superman figured out how to beat Vyndktvx, "I told you, Superman always wins."

He can be slowed, but not stopped.

Which falls under the CIS on rule.....

So without the plot helping him, if he gets KOed once, due to him approaching every fight with his defences down..he's not coming back at the end of the day to win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. Then post it.

2. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104108/3589684-racerx-ba4-p18.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1037242-racerx_wwiiib1_p06.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111125382/3725999-2334112200-Black.jpg

3. 'I can't answer your request for proof, so will ignore it and ask YOU for proof'. Classic. Remember, I asked for magical beings failing to affect intangible beings.

4. HV? Won't do a thing.

Here, a bloodlusted PG fires HV at a weakened Black Adam:
http://i.imgur.com/FJ2n0IS.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104108/3589682-05.jpg

He literally walks through it.

This is what a non bloodlusted PG can do:
http://i.imgur.com/6GZM98Q.png

That's KC Superman.

In this thread, we have a full power BA (so four times what you saw in that scan) who is THEN amped a further two times. Meaningless. Powergirl is most often written under Superboy and Supergirl. And all 3 together couldn't beat a pissed Clark if they wanted to.

Even Cyborg Superman defeated a similar team while cracking jokes and demeaning them the whole time.

Supes beat him by waving his arm fast before. lol.

PG and SG both got one shotted by Prime while Clark matched up with nearly evenly in Sinestro Corp Wars and even beat him in Infinite Crisis.

Coincidentally, Adam was nothing against Prime either. He purposely let Adam hit him, laughed at his efforts and backhanded him away.

Adam also backed down from Clark once he wanted to end it.

Powergirl got wrecked by Supergirl on a few different occasions, and SG at the height of her displays of power was proven nothing to Supes.

Trying to use her in any relation to how Superman would perform is laughable.

One of Supermans weak robot minions went rogue and nearly did what Adam did in WW3 (which he was able to escalate because Supes wasn't there, the entire point of 52.) and decimated the Titans and Young Justice at once.


This shit is too funny.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which falls under the CIS on rule.....

So without the plot helping him, if he gets KOed once, due to him approaching every fight with his defences down..he's not coming back at the end of the day to win. No. On the forum Superman isn't handcuffed to the bottom end of his power just as Flash isn't held to mach speed. . Since we know he know he operates on a higher level, and the only catalyst is choice and need, its completely viable.

If your debating strategy is going to involve one chararacter fighting at the bottom end of his ability, fighting like an idiot, and then try to lowball from there, that alone shows how far apart the characters that have been in discussion are in relation to Superman.

Originally posted by Juntai
Meaningless. Powergirl is most often written under Superboy and Supergirl. And all 3 together couldn't beat a pissed Clark if they wanted to.

Even Cyborg Superman defeated a similar team while cracking jokes and demeaning them the whole time.

Supes beat him by waving his arm fast before. lol.

PG and SG both got one shotted by Prime while Clark matched up with nearly evenly in Sinestro Corp Wars and even beat him in Infinite Crisis.

Coincidentally, Adam was nothing against Prime either. He purposely let Adam hit him, laughed at his efforts and backhanded him away.

Adam also backed down from Clark once he wanted to end it.

Powergirl got wrecked by Supergirl on a few different occasions, and SG at the height of her displays of power was proven nothing to Supes.

Trying to use her in any relation to how Superman would perform is laughable.

One of Supermans weak robot minions went rogue and nearly did what Adam did in WW3 (which he was able to escalate because Supes wasn't there, the entire point of 52.) and decimated the Titans and Young Justice at once.


This shit is too funny.

Hence why I posted KC Superman and HV. And stipulated it was specifically, a bloodlusted PG - Barry had NEVER seen her so angry before. Making all her other showings, moot (she was obviously lowering her mental blocks here).

Originally posted by Juntai
No. On the forum Superman isn't handcuffed to the bottom end of his power just as Flash isn't held to mach speed. . Since we know he know he operates on a higher level, and the only catalyst is choice and need, its completely viable.

If your debating strategy is going to involve one chararacter fighting at the bottom end of his ability, fighting like an idiot, and then try to lowball from there, that alone shows how far apart the characters that have been in discussion are in relation to Superman.

Exactly. It is CHOICE. Character Induced. Superman, as part of his character, CHOOSES to hold back. I can post scans of him holding back, consciously and unconsciously, if you haven't seen them before?

Not trying to lowball. You and others have made it abundantly clear that in many (if not all) of his fights, Superman does not spring out of the gate with murderdeathkill in his eyes. He IS a hero, after all, and noble. 1000% not disputing that. How is this lowballing? It isn't. Superman isn't fighting like an idiot, but he is not oneshotting Imperiex Probes at the start of the OWAW storyline. Hell, he wasn't even doing that DURING the first fight with the probe.

We go by character depictions here.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, he chooses to lower his power, and occasionally is surprised.
Then at the end of the day, he's going to crank it up and win anyways.

Just as Mxy said when Superman figured out how to beat Vyndktvx, "I told you, Superman always wins."

He can be slowed, but not stopped.

Thats the things though...you can not choose when Superman is holding back and when he is displaying his full power. I see what you are trying to do here. You're trying to use Superman highs as an average while throwing out his average as the norm. It isn't right, especially since we have different writers who have different opinions of the character. Just because Pak said Hulk held back his power since his creation, I can't exempt his losses because of this. I can't say that his fights against Thor and Surfer isn't legit and yes, Hulk has crumbled people more powerful than them.

What I am saying is, his fights against Orion, you can not sit here and say that going by those fights, they are not equals. Or how about his showings against Captain Marvel, etc, etc... Superman is powerful but you are trying to hype him up into something he isn't. Superman is a Herald who have losses under his belt against other Herald. Superman also have high showings just like any other hero that holds back on a day to day basis. This is why I'm saying you are wrong. If you're going to give this much credit to Supes, especially with us knowing that writers have different perspective of how his power works, then you need to share the wealth with the other heros.

Prime laughed at Adam. Superman was matching Time Trapper Prime in h2h and was drawing blood with his punches.

Under the same writer.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Adam wins.

H1, shut up.



Oh and Carver evolved is on the loose again.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://i.imgur.com/3jVv0Zx.jpg

I do love how you ask others for proof, but post none of your own.

That scan, incidentally, shows that the perimeter field could withstand a direct asteroid hit which killed the dinos.

That asteroid outputted 4.2 x 10^23 Joules of energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater)

So let's be generous, and say BA was outputting that amount of energy when he hit it (when he was obviously > that).

ASsume he is 100kg.

So using KE = 1/2mv^2, that means his velocity was ~91.7billion m/sec. So a bit more than Mach 500, no?

And he's now 2x that.

The full scan isn't working.
1st, Superman is astronomically faster than that.
Second. I was referring to combat speed, not flight speed. Speed of limbs, travel speed, speed of changing directions, and reflexes are all key.
Third, I can fly at billions of m/s from many miles away and still not have light speed reactions nor the ability to change directions on a dime.
Fourth, BA traveled from miles away. Thus he had to accelerate to that speed over the distance. That's not practical to battle speed from battle distance.
Fifth, BA has magic lightning in his punches right? Maybe that contributes to the damage.


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. Then post it.

2. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104108/3589684-racerx-ba4-p18.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1037242-racerx_wwiiib1_p06.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111125382/3725999-2334112200-Black.jpg

3. 'I can't answer your request for proof, so will ignore it and ask YOU for proof'. Classic. Remember, I asked for magical beings failing to affect intangible beings.

4. HV? Won't do a thing.

Here, a bloodlusted PG fires HV at a weakened Black Adam:
http://i.imgur.com/FJ2n0IS.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104108/3589682-05.jpg

He literally walks through it.

This is what a non bloodlusted PG can do:
http://i.imgur.com/6GZM98Q.png

That's KC Superman.

In this thread, we have a full power BA (so four times what you saw in that scan) who is THEN amped a further two times.

1. Superman freezing Bizarro for minutes and WW for moments is for starters.

2. Those are not the type of lightning attacks I was referring to. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm talking about a ranged attack of lightning. Not him grabbing opponents just to give them some lightning. I don't see him grabbing Superman at all in this fight. Even if he does then Superman gets out of it instantly.

3. But I don't really have to show instances in order to prove it. Just like a character doesn't automatically have tp resistance if they have no feats of showing it. But I was thinking more of Thor and Loki as my examples. I believe Thor attempted to hit Loki once with a physical attack but Loki was intangible at the time. Note: I didn't say a magical being could use a magical spell or magical power to try to hit an intangible being. I said, they can't do it with a physical punch. Thor can't swing his fists and hit someone intangible without proof.

4. LOL. 4 things. Characters power level fluctuate in comics depending on the plot. It's faulty to use a character's power level in one issue and equate it to another the same power level in a different issue. I can show Gladiator busting a planet in one comic and failing to one shot Colossus or Thing in another. Does that mean Colossus and Thing can withstand planet busting punches?

The second issue is that Superman's hv is far more powerful than PG's hv by feats. Superman doesn't kill so he both consciously and subconsciously holds back when fighting weaker beings. When Superman is applying his hv to non living things he does stuff like welding the fabric of the universe. And when he stops holding back he one shots Trans level beings with his hv. His hv was stated to be hotter than the core of a star.

Third, There was no indication in the scan that PG was holding back against Superman. It's not like he's a human. He's more powerful than her. So why hit someone more powerful with less than all your might, knowing that even hitting them with all your might will not amount to much? Writer's intent there was she blasted with full strength.

Fourth, She was actually burning BA. She didn't damage Superman in any way. All she did was concuss Superman.

Adam wins.

H1, shut up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence why I posted KC Superman and HV. And stipulated it was specifically, a bloodlusted PG - Barry had NEVER seen her so angry before. Making all her other showings, moot (she was obviously lowering her mental blocks here).

No. Power Girl still isn't Superman. Just like Gladiator isn't Superman. Just like Hyperion isn't Superman. Just like Supergirl isn't Superman.

An example of someone performing well against her is like showing someone walking through a Surfer blast and acting like Galactus would do the same too since they're both power cosmic.


However, he can choose to do so, and thus you need to be prepared to debate against it.

And also, Superman's example of holding back to have lessers be a threat is written under "PIS" and not "CIS." on the forum rules page.

And the rest is covered under the Full Capacity rule. Just because he doesn't all the time, we know he can if he chooses to do so, just as Flash running lightspeed is viable on the forum.

Because the only catalyst is him deciding to do so.

Originally posted by Juntai
No. Power Girl still isn't Superman. Just like Gladiator isn't Superman. Just like Hyperion isn't Superman. Just like Supergirl isn't Superman.

An example of someone performing well against her is like showing someone walking through a Surfer blast and acting like Galactus would do the same too since they're both power cosmic.


However, he can choose to do so, and thus you need to be prepared to debate against it.

And also, Superman's example of holding back to have lessers be a threat is written under "PIS" and not "CIS." on the forum rules page.

And the rest is covered under the Full Capacity rule. Just because he doesn't all the time, we know he can if he chooses to do so, just as Flash running lightspeed is viable on the forum.

Because the only catalyst is him deciding to do so.

Superman wears red bikinis over his leotard. Why are you wasting your breath defending this crap character?

Originally posted by h1a8
The full scan isn't working.
Works for me.

http://i.imgur.com/3jVv0Zx.jpg


Proof? But, let's lead on to your next point...


Please post hard numbers of Superman's reflex speed, please.


Then post hard scans of Superman's reflex speed, with numbers.


You can see in the scan, they say he is 500...then 300...then 100 miles away. Let's say that's a second in between. Obviously, he is NOT travelling at ~300 trillion mph, which is what he was at when he hit the field (and in this thread, he would be at 600 trillion mph). Ergo, he accelerated to that speed over a MUCH shorter distance (and here, he has 2x the acceleration). Why would it matter, anyway? There are no limits on the battlefield here.


What if hats were ants? Which is to say, nothing was given in there, so you are just reaching.


So, proof they were at full speed reflex wise? A wise poster often points out to others on this forum that for the sake of plot, characters often job in their speed. Notably, when said poster is arguing against Thanus. So, proof that bizarro/WW weren't jobbing?


Considering he called the lightning down before MM could react, I'd say he's got a good chance. But of course, MM was jobbing his speed there, right? Unlike Bizarro and WW, who obv weren't.


So. none.


PG was specifically stated to have been angrier than she had ever been before. Jay had never seen her output that much power. So she was obv going all out.


Mental blocks, which strangely, even thought the OP did not mention it, have been taken off for this fight. How mysterious.


Did the surroundings burn up, as with BA?


A useless point. That BA was at 25%. Here, he is at 200%.

Originally posted by Juntai
However, he can choose to do so, and thus you need to be prepared to debate against it.
I am indeed.


Against Toyman. Let me refresh your memory on what CIS actually means:



That sounds like Superman to a T.



Agreed.

Originally posted by h1a8
The full scan isn't working.
1st, Superman is astronomically faster than that.
Second. I was referring to combat speed, not flight speed. Speed of limbs, travel speed, speed of changing directions, and reflexes are all key.
Third, I can fly at billions of m/s from many miles away and still not have light speed reactions nor the ability to change directions on a dime.
Fourth, BA traveled from miles away. Thus he had to accelerate to that speed over the distance. That's not practical to battle speed from battle distance.
Fifth, BA has magic lightning in his punches right? Maybe that contributes to the damage.




1. Superman freezing Bizarro for minutes and WW for moments is for starters.


Bizarro is a friggin' idiot. Wonder Woman's combat awareness is leagues above that dumbass'. Bizarro is so dumb it probaly took him a while to figure out "Duh...I think me frozen. Guess me needs to break out of it so I can go kill my good friend Sooooperman". IF you think that somehow proves WW is stronger than Bizarro you're even crazier than I thought you were.

Superman choosing his power level should be obvious to everyone now I guess but let's just see at what level he is according to the KMC tier or the Marvel world.

So let's assume that Superman on his normal levels is Thor or Silver Surfer level, the so called Herald Tier.

In the beginning of the OWAW he was trained by Mongul and increased his power, yet even with Mongus help, the Probe performed better against him than Thanos against Thor or the Silver Surfer.

So what level was he at already, the Probe must be at the very least mid to High trans by KMC tiers. Superman would be what, HH+?

Later he fights a Probe and actually destroys it, going ko in the process, on probe hospitalized the entire Justice league and later only with great amps were some heroes able to destroy one while dying in the process. So even if we lowball that Probe to low trans and see Superman still beat it, we can assume he is already in the low trans tier, if not in the mid trans.

Even later he goes against multiple Probes and oneshots them, even if we loball the shit out of them and say they were HH+, low Trans and Mid Trans level (though evidence shows they were higher up to the low Skyfather tier). What level was Superman on to oneshot them left and right while surviving the released energies? Thanos a KMC High Trans against Silver Surfer needed 6 hits, against Thor even more and they are KMC Heralds. Odin oneshot the Silver Surfer in their encounter and does really well against Galactus.

I leave the Tier Superman is at this point to your imagination, oneshotting HH+ (lowballing) or Translevel Probes.

With the sundip his power increased at least a 100fold, what level would he be then?

This jump from the KMC HH tier to levels far beyond it is what Superman is all about. Sure, in a normal story he will hold back more than Mindset in a Catholic School for Girls but if the threat is big enough and once he figures out how much he needs to let go, he will be wherever he wants to be. Oneshotting KMC HH as a side effect of his HV in the process like he did in FC.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Superman choosing his power level should be obvious to everyone now I guess but let's just see at what level he is according to the KMC tier or the Marvel world.

So let's assume that Superman on his normal levels is Thor or Silver Surfer level, the so called Herald Tier.

In the beginning of the OWAW he was trained by Mongul and increased his power, yet even with Mongus help, the Probe performed better against him than Thanos against Thor or the Silver Surfer.

So what level was he at already, the Probe must be at the very least mid to High trans by KMC tiers. Superman would be what, HH+?

Later he fights a Probe and actually destroys it, going ko in the process, on probe hospitalized the entire Justice league and later only with great amps were some heroes able to destroy one while dying in the process. So even if we lowball that Probe to low trans and see Superman still beat it, we can assume he is already in the low trans tier, if not in the mid trans.

Even later he goes against multiple Probes and oneshots them, even if we loball the shit out of them and say they were HH+, low Trans and Mid Trans level (though evidence shows they were higher up to the low Skyfather tier). What level was Superman on to oneshot them left and right while surviving the released energies? Thanos a KMC High Trans against Silver Surfer needed 6 hits, against Thor even more and they are KMC Heralds. Odin oneshot the Silver Surfer in their encounter and does really well against Galactus.

I leave the Tier Superman is at this point to your imagination, oneshotting HH+ (lowballing) or Translevel Probes.

With the sundip his power increased at least a 100fold, what level would he be then?

This jump from the KMC HH tier to levels far beyond it is what Superman is all about. Sure, in a normal story he will hold back more than Mindset in a Catholic School for Girls but if the threat is big enough and once he figures out how much he needs to let go, he will be wherever he wants to be. Oneshotting KMC HH as a side effect of his HV in the process like he did in FC. The problem with this analogy is that being High Herald vs Mid Herald in cases is because those guys go to 11 in comics when it calls for it.

Thor's fight with Glory for example. He went out and beat a Skyfather that was equated to Odin plus all of Asgard combined. Yet we don't run around saying Thor is skyfather level now. All of the High Heralds have feats that somehow would take them above their weight class in certain instances.

I do agree that Superman probably has more instances but that is because he has consistently been DC's flag ship character in such events.

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem with this analogy is that being High Herald vs Mid Herald in cases is because those guys go to 11 in comics when it calls for it.

Thor's fight with Glory for example. He went out and beat a Skyfather that was equated to Odin plus all of Asgard combined. Yet we don't run around saying Thor is skyfather level now. All of the High Heralds have feats that somehow would take them above their weight class in certain instances.

I do agree that Superman probably has more instances but that is because he has consistently been DC's flag ship character in such events.

Yes yes, Thor has Mjolnir a Skyfather weapon, the difference is, while he has this Skyfather plotdevice weapon Superman actually IS this plot device weapon.

Thanos is a KMC Trans, give him the IG or THOTI and he is Universal, actually he himself is the same, the power comes from the toy.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yes yes, Thor has Mjolnir a Skyfather weapon, the difference is, while he has this Skyfather plotdevice weapon Superman actually IS this plot device weapon.

Thanos is a KMC Trans, give him the IG or THOTI and he is Universal, actually he himself is the same, the power comes from the toy.

Like Spiderman, and Batman?

Idk but eclipso thought captain marvel was strong enough to kill superman, and we do have instances of captain marvel knocking superman out with 2 punches.

Superman Cracked the moon in moon in half but captain marvel knocked him out in two punches

Also superman can crack the moon in half but he cant just simply physically restrain black adam if he was that much stronger than him???
instead he decides to use a punch that would most likely level the entire earth and kill every single living being on it??

superman rather kill all living beings on earth than physically restrain black adam

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like Spiderman, and Batman?

More like Spiderman but Batman has his Batkick, the abstract power comes from Bruce, do never again lowball the power of Batman, do you hear me! uhuh

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4517443-9099607316-35606.jpg

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yes yes, Thor has Mjolnir a Skyfather weapon, the difference is, while he has this Skyfather plotdevice weapon Superman actually IS this plot device weapon.

Thanos is a KMC Trans, give him the IG or THOTI and he is Universal, actually he himself is the same, the power comes from the toy. Isn't that like saying a Green Lantern is only high herald because of their ring... the equipment is so intertwined with the character does it really matter.

I mean the hammer says it grants the power of Thor after all.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Idk but eclipso thought captain marvel was strong enough to kill superman, and we do have instances of captain marvel knocking superman out with 2 punches.

Superman Cracked the moon in moon in half but captain marvel knocked him out in two punches




That was a sucker punch from a magic sparking fist.

Originally posted by Newjak
Isn't that like saying a Green Lantern is only high herald because of their ring... the equipment is so intertwined with the character does it really matter.

I mean the hammer says it grants the power of Thor after all.

Yes it is, exactly. Hal Jordan is maybe a low Street without the Ring, the Herald power comes from the Ring, the Skyfather feats from the ring energy combined with Hals willpower.

Thor without Mjolnir is a Herald character, with Mjolnir, the skyfather weapon, he can go out of his tier and make a hungry Galactus run or defeat a skyfather. Remember that even Odin wasn't able to lift Mjolnir because he became unworthy.

Could someone else use Mjolnir as effective as Thor? Might be, but he is the best, most experienced with it.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yes it is, exactly. Hal Jordan is maybe a low Street without the Ring, the Herald power comes from the Ring, the Skyfather feats from the ring energy combined with Hals willpower.

Thor without Mjolnir is a Herald character, with Mjolnir, the skyfather weapon, he can go out of his tier and make a hungry Galactus run or defeat a skyfather. Remember that even Odin wasn't able to lift Mjolnir because he became unworthy.

Could someone else use Mjolnir as effective as Thor? Might be, but he is the best, most experienced with it. Well as far as I know most of the power of the hammer is supposed to come from Thor. The story between Thor and the hammer has been one that's been explored a lot in the comics. After all the people who can wield Mjolnir turn into Thor essentially. It's pretty much supposed to be Thor's power in the hammer and that has been pretty consistent to the character.

So does that mean Thor's power is Skyfather level since the hammer only grants Thor's power to the wielder?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yes it is, exactly. Hal Jordan is maybe a low Street without the Ring, the Herald power comes from the Ring, the Skyfather feats from the ring energy combined with Hals willpower.

Thor without Mjolnir is a Herald character, with Mjolnir, the skyfather weapon, he can go out of his tier and make a hungry Galactus run or defeat a skyfather. Remember that even Odin wasn't able to lift Mjolnir because he became unworthy.

Could someone else use Mjolnir as effective as Thor? Might be, but he is the best, most experienced with it.

Thor without Mjolnir isn't Thor, doe.

It is now canon, that the hammer makes you Thor. Whosoever can lift the hammer, possesses the power of Thor.

If you have a thread with 'Thor' in it, then he has Mjolnir, and Mjolnir gives you the power of Thor.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/462/83017-176623-mjolnir.jpg

Mjolnir gives you Thor's power. To argue that it is a Skyfather level weapon, is to make Thor Skyfather level.

To both of you.

Ok the Hammer bestows whoever wields it the power of Thor. Simple as that Mjolnir gives a normal guy or girl the powers of a Herald, the power of Thor, not the power of Mjolnir. This alone makes the weapon a Herald maker, it still has far more power in it and more then enough to turn a being into a Herald? Nice isn't it?

And Thor Odinson was still a Herald even without Mjolnir, till he and his Bro Hyperion died.

There is no contradiction to what you say and what i say btw. Skyfather plot device weapon making normal joes into heralds and allowing them to unleashe skyfather blasts from it. Yet the power in their bodies is just Herald level and they can be put to sleep by punches that would be ineffective against Mjolnir while all the Skyfatherloving power remains in the weapon.

No. Superman's version of holding back is specifically mentioned among PIS. Plot requires him to hold back to make it last. It goes hand in hand with full capacity example given for Flash.

However he doesn't suffer Cis as a character like Rhino does. When Superman encounters a situation that requires he be faster, stronger, more powerful, he leaps past his peers to do so consistently.

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem with this analogy is that being High Herald vs Mid Herald in cases is because those guys go to 11 in comics when it calls for it.

Thor's fight with Glory for example. He went out and beat a Skyfather that was equated to Odin plus all of Asgard combined. Yet we don't run around saying Thor is skyfather level now. All of the High Heralds have feats that somehow would take them above their weight class in certain instances.

I do agree that Superman probably has more instances but that is because he has consistently been DC's flag ship character in such events.



I hope that got through to them.

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem with this analogy is that being High Herald vs Mid Herald in cases is because those guys go to 11 in comics when it calls for it.

Thor's fight with Glory for example. He went out and beat a Skyfather that was equated to Odin plus all of Asgard combined. Yet we don't run around saying Thor is skyfather level now. All of the High Heralds have feats that somehow would take them above their weight class in certain instances.

I do agree that Superman probably has more instances but that is because he has consistently been DC's flag ship character in such events. You're right. Its so common theyre hardly outliers. Beings like Darkseid and Doomsday, Brainiac, Mxy, etc simply comprise Superman's rogues gallery. Let alone all the other instances of trampling trans/skyfather beings year in and out.

Thor was overwhelmed and got lucky.

Superman fights a godkiller he spins in a circle and crushes him and or makes him beg for quarter.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Idk but eclipso thought captain marvel was strong enough to kill superman, and we do have instances of captain marvel knocking superman out with 2 punches.

Superman Cracked the moon in moon in half but captain marvel knocked him out in two punches

And Superman thinks Martian Manhunter can kill him.

Originally posted by Juntai
No. Superman's version of holding back is specifically mentioned among PIS. Plot requires him to hold back to make it last. It goes hand in hand with full capacity example given for Flash.

However he doesn't suffer Cis as a character like Rhino does. When Superman encounters a situation that requires he be faster, stronger, more powerful, he leaps past his peers to do so consistently.

We will need a mod ruling on this, then. Because I do not see Superman, in character, going all out as soon as the bell rings, being the hero that he is. For example, see the Elite fight.

Originally posted by Star428
That was a sucker punch from a magic sparking fist.

omit

Originally posted by Star428
That was a sucker punch from a magic sparking fist.

So what? You guys talk so tough about Superman then turn around and give offer these sorry excuses for him in the same breath.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
And Superman thinks Martian Manhunter can kill him. probably can

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We will need a mod ruling on this, then. Because I do not see Superman, in character, going all out as soon as the bell rings, being the hero that he is. For example, see the Elite fight. Not needed. Its directly in the forum rules under PIS and Full Capacity.

Flash doesnt end his comics by going lightspeed in one panel, but on the forum he'll do so.

Just as Superman will.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We will need a mod ruling on this, then. Because I do not see Superman, in character, going all out as soon as the bell rings, being the hero that he is. For example, see the Elite fight.

Superman being aware that he is fighting Black Adam, who has powers at the level of Captain Marvel and is already an established mass murderer, who killed the population of an entire country? I don't see Superman holding back tbh.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Idk but eclipso thought captain marvel was strong enough to kill superman, and we do have instances of captain marvel knocking superman out with 2 punches.

Superman Cracked the moon in moon in half but captain marvel knocked him out in two punches

Superman couldn't even move Black Adam out of the center of the City and Black Adam was trying to talk to him. Tell him he was being manipulated.

Btw Carter where are those mysterious scans of General Zod beating those 3 Probes? I never seen it. Has anyone here scans of this or can confirm this myth or is it just a lie?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Btw Carter where are those mysterious scans of General Zod beating those 3 Probes? I never seen it. Has anyone here scans of this or can confirm this myth or is it just a lie?

I thought you had me on ignore. I posted them before and yow boy ABHI posted them as well. It's the truth bro.