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I know I know not another one of these but it's a puzzling question. When they fought the playing field was fairly uneven for both character. So who woudl win if on neutral ground.

Round 1 sabers

Round 2. Force

Round 3 all out

Plenty of objects to throw around, on a flat grassy piece of land.
Who wins if their even is a winner?

This is them in their ROTS incarnations.

Sidious all rounds.

Yoda could maybe take sabers, Sidious wins force/all out.

5/10.

The actual fight in ROTS was just one of Sidious's 5.

Still, too close to call tbh.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
5/10.

The actual fight in ROTS was just one of Sidious's 5.

Sidious is not taking sabers for a majority. The rest is either even or perhaps a slight edge to Palpatine.

Sidious in all three.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious is not taking sabers for a majority. The rest is either even or perhaps a slight edge to Palpatine.

Yeah, he's going to lose sabers when multiple quotes confirmed Yoda lost their duel. And even newer quotes posted by ILS state that he lost again.

Not sure why people lowball Sidious's skill, the gap isn't huge but Yoda isn't a better duelist by any stretch

The original script and the junior novel depict Yoda as disarming Sidious, and even if you count that as "one of the five out of ten rounds where Yoda wins", that doesn't confirm Sidious' superiority, which has never been shown or even implied anywhere.

Sidious's victories came from the Force (and in some sources, weight/positioning also mattered), not sabers. He's equal to Yoda, but not his better in that regard.

I'll concede the point when somebody can show me a source which suggests Sidious is more skilled. And Yoda doesn't have to be more skilled for Sidious to be unable to take a majority. Draws do exist, you know?

Originally posted by carthage
Sidious in all three.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Draws do exist, you know?

Except no sources confirm there was a draw, and the film very clearly depicts him losing

,

-Credit to ILS
Also the ROTS novelization states he didn't have it, etc.



The text states Yoda was outmatched, nowhere is it mentioned they're equals

Either this paragraph was invisible or you intentionally ignored it:



I KNOW that Sidious won. I'm saying nothing ever showed he was Yoda's better in sabers. Force, I could live with - I could even agree with. But sabers? Show me what source suggests Sidious would take the majority in sabers only.

And if you want me to, I can draw on multiple sources that say Yoda is Palpatine's equal.

The only reason I saw for Yoda's loss in the film is that he fell further after the final blast.

I don't see how that was Sidious's superiority more than a result of unequal weight/positioning as SunRazer put it.

No quote about Yoda losing or being ultimately outmatched contradicts that.

And nothing contradicts the script where Yoda disarms Sidious in the Saber match up either.

Nah, the junior novel says that since Yoda was lighter, he was thrown further and higher, and had nothing to break his fall (until he slipped off the Chancellor's podium) unlike Sidious, who managed to grab onto the end of the Senate pod.

"Size matters not", lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I KNOW that Sidious won. I'm saying nothing ever showed he was Yoda's better in sabers. Force, I could live with - I could even agree with. But sabers? Show me what source suggests Sidious would take the majority in sabers only.

And if you want me to, I can draw on multiple sources that say Yoda is Palpatine's equal.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, the junior novel says that since Yoda was lighter, he was thrown further and higher, and had nothing to break his fall (until he slipped off the Chancellor's podium) unlike Sidious, who managed to grab onto the end of the Senate pod.

Originally posted by carthage
and the film very clearly depicts him losing Where?

Yoda can take sabers in a very long and tiring duel.
Force- Sidious
All Out- Too close to call imo Sidious 5.5/10

Originally posted by Kurk
Yoda can take sabers in a very long and tiring duel.
Force- Sidious
All Out- Too close to call imo Sidious 5.5/10

Originally posted by carthage
Except no sources confirm there was a draw, and the film very clearly depicts him losing

,

-Credit to ILS
Also the ROTS novelization states he didn't have it, etc.



The text states Yoda was outmatched, nowhere is it mentioned they're equals Its pretty dumb to say Yoda was defeated in the film. Sure, Yoda admits it, but all he needed to do was use force jump a few times to get back up to where Sidious was, all Yoda did was fall down. Just as well, Yoda's tutaminis had the same effect on Sidious as it did on Yoda, he fell down just like Yoda did, only difference is, he was able to hang on, Yoda wasn't. So that counts as a loss? Thats some dumb-ass logic, my friend. Even Yoda was dumb for saying he lost.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So who woudl win if on neutral ground.


Neutral ground?

As in: An enviroment in which Sidious doesn't benefit from the fact, that the Force had shifted towards the Dark Side, which gave him a boost in terms of power and diminished the Jedis (read: Yoda's) ability to use the Force?

That aside: Yoda did probably disarm Sidious, despite fighting him, when Sidious was in a position of advantage. So I'd give sabers to Yoda. And the Force? In the final seconds of their duel, Yoda began to push back Sidious before the Force energy between them exploded, which would suggest he's the slightly more powerful Force user between the two. But then, he probably lacks the offensive potential to really "defeat" Sidious in a force fight. So I'd call that a draw. Following from there, Yoda is going to win most "all out fights" against Sidious. And I'm inclined to say that, if you apply the "neutral setting" mentioned above, he is going to win every fight against Sidious.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Even Yoda was dumb for saying he lost.


Yoda didn't say he lost. He said he "failed." And he did fail- to KILL the Emperor.

Originally posted by Nai
Neutral ground?

As in: An enviroment in which Sidious doesn't benefit from the fact, that the Force had shifted towards the Dark Side, which gave him a boost in terms of power and diminished the Jedis (read: Yoda's) ability to use the Force?

That aside: Yoda did probably disarm Sidious, despite fighting him, when Sidious was in a position of advantage. So I'd give sabers to Yoda. And the Force? In the final seconds of their duel, Yoda began to push back Sidious before the Force energy between them exploded, which would suggest he's the slightly more powerful Force user between the two. But then, he probably lacks the offensive potential to really "defeat" Sidious in a force fight. So I'd call that a draw. Following from there, Yoda is going to win most "all out fights" against Sidious. And I'm inclined to say that, if you apply the "neutral setting" mentioned above, he is going to win every fight against Sidious.

Well I've never considered that the imbalance of the force is what gave him his power and I'm not inclined to now nor will I ever be inclined to believe so. With that a neutral ground I mean him disarming him in the senate room, this neutral ground gives Sidious gets to use his force speed the way he wants to, Yoda can't fall from a high place, no one is hindered. So balance of the force has and will never be a factor in any of the threads I create or debate in as I don't believe that had anything to do with it. The Imbalance of the force he to get there some how and that woudl mean the dark spiders Bent it to their will which shows great power. Then when you look at DE Sidious he puts both ROTS and ROTJ incarnations of himself to utter shame and guess what if there was an imbalance in the force if would be for the lightside and guess what he kicked the greatest practioners of ito butt. So that "theory" of yours while I say plausible unlikely.

Even split in everything sans sabers only where Yoda has 0,8125% of better chances.

Yoda lost to Palpatine only becasue he was in tactical disadvantage from the start. Sidious tried to run at the beggining, so Yoda had to chasing him all the time.
Besides that, Yoda already won a saber fight, according to script Sidious was disarmed. They were about equals in a Force fight (Yoda had the upper hand in their fight in TCW though).
Stover's novel is obvious BS here, and - since it contradicts the movie's version - it shouldn't be even treat as a canon source.

It should be a split, or 5,5/10 for Yoda (on neutral ground)

On neutral flat terrain Yoda has the edge 5.5/10 imo In the Grand Convocation Chamber, its advantage Sidious 5.5/10.

Sabers goes to Yoda for the advantage, Force to Sidious, all out is a toss up depending.

LOL @ Yoda > Sidious. Calling it a stalemate is the least stressful way of looking at it but if y'all wanna prove slight superiorities, Sidious will come on top at the end.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ Yoda > Sidious. Calling it a stalemate is the least stressful way of looking at it but if y'all wanna prove slight superiorities, Sidious will come on top at the end.

Well Sidious did seem to give up on the Saber fight. And according to the script he was actually Disarmed by Yoda in the Saber match up.

So not sure how anyone can give Sidious the edge or the win in the Saber department.

Then the Force battle they both went flying back. Yoda not having something to hang onto had nothing to do with Sidious's Force powers being greater.

Given that I don't see the issue in people giving the "slight edge" to Yoda.

Also don't see the issue in giving Sidious the "slight edge" given that he ended up on top in their fight.

Point being it's a very debatable topic.

The script/junior novel have Yoda disarm Sidious, but it's otherwise confirmed that he didn't disarm Sidious. I've had a mind blank, though, as I can't remember the source itself or anything that would point to it. There's also a bunch of sources saying Yoda and Sidious are equals (again, can't remember if there's any referring to dueling specifically).

Wasn't Sidious in a disadvantaged position in their lightsaber fight? Wouldn't it make a difference being on neutral ground?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Wasn't Sidious in a disadvantaged position in their lightsaber fight? Wouldn't it make a difference being on neutral ground?

Well he was in a position of his own choosing.

Either way there's no evidence to give Sidious the advantage in that department.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well Sidious did seem to give up on the Saber fight. And according to the script he was actually Disarmed by Yoda in the Saber match up.
Yoda disarmed him while Sidious was in a disadvantageous position as he had to stand still and fight Yoda without pulling off any acrobatic stunts which is not how he usually duals(not to mention missing a saber) while Yoda wasn't experiencing the disadvantage of his height due to the platforms shape.

I never said Sidious has the edge, I said they should be about equal but if people start making arguments based on the smallest of details to give Yoda the edge, I can simply return the favor.

Sidious had the upper hand in the TK fight cause he positioned himself better just like Yoda had the upper hand in the dual cause of the same reason. Better usage of environment seems like a determining factor there. Its probably cause they are so close in every department.

However, let us not forget one thing: Sidious had already won in the big picture and had everything to lose where Yoda had nothing to lose. He was also there to assassinate Sidious. This is an awkward situation for Sidious since as a dark sider and a master of manipulating his rage, being on the defensive is not a very practical stand for him. On a flat terrain with no morals etc, if I had to pick a side, I'd pick Sidious as he still managed to have the upper hand at the end of the fight despite all his disadvantages but I'm still suggesting that calling it a stalemate is a healthy way of approaching it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well he was in a position of his own choosing.

Either way there's no evidence to give Sidious the advantage in that department.

Well that could be to get the force advantage. By going into the senate arena he would have been able to do everything he did. Throw the pods and lightning. However that doesn't detract from the fact that Sidious didn't fight the way he normally does, using his force speed the way he would want to.

That part is true.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well that could be to get the force advantage. By going into the senate arena he would have been able to do everything he did. Throw the pods and lightning. However that doesn't detract from the fact that Sidious didn't fight the way he normally does, using his force speed the way he would want to.

That part is true.

Could have been to mange better use of his Force Powers, but that would only lend to the idea he wasn't confident in winning the Saber fight.

So fact is the fight began on neutral ground but took it to the Senate Pod figuring he had better chances there.

Also I don't think the Senate Pod was the ideal place for Yoda to fight either leaping around the edge of it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Could have been to mange better use of his Force Powers, but that would only lend to the idea he wasn't confident in winning the Saber fight.

So fact is the fight began on neutral ground but took it to the Senate Pod figuring he had better chances there.

Also I don't think the Senate Pod was the ideal place for Yoda to fight either leaping around the edge of it.

Or that he had to end the fight and he felt more confident with his force powers. Good point though.

He would have access to the pods to throw at Yoda.

That's what he's meant for. To jump from place to place. That's how Ataru works. He jumps from spot to spot, and being so small it would be even harder for Sidious to hit anything.

Oh. I missed that one...

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well I've never considered that the imbalance of the force is what gave him his power and I'm not inclined to now nor will I ever be inclined to believe so.


I'm totally surprised. A guy named Sidious ignoring a fact that would make the character Sidious look weaker? Gosh. Who would have thought about that?!



Come again? This time in English, please.
From what I've understood, let me just say this: Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant in debates here. We deal with canon. Canon states clearly, that Sidious received a noticeable boost in power from the unbalancing in the Force while the Jedi's ability to use the Force were diminished. So, for a "truely neutral" setting, Sidious would be less powerful while Yoda would be more powerful.

@Sinious
Originally posted by Sinious
Yoda disarmed him while Sidious was in a disadvantageous position as he had to stand still and fight Yoda without pulling off any acrobatic stunts which is not how he usually duals(not to mention missing a saber) while Yoda wasn't experiencing the disadvantage of his height due to the platforms shape.


One word for you: Wrong!
I've demonstrated mathematically, that the Senate pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because of what it would mean to fight a foe with Yoda's height on equal ground right here. I guess, that not having to sacrifice 1/3 to 1/2 of his range advantage and 2/3s of the manouvers you can utilize, in order to be capable of hitting your opponent, counts as advantage.



Because disarming an opponent in a lightsaber fight is "a small detail" when attempting to compare the fencing skill of the two beings involved in the fight?



Wrong. See above.
And it is Sidious who picks the Senate pod for the lightsaber fight, not Yoda. I don't think that Sidious would move the fight to a place in which he would be at disadvantage. Which he doesn't, as demonstrated in the posting linked above.



Yoda, fighting from a position of disadvantage, apparently disarmed Sidious in a lightsaber fight.

Yoda on equal ground with Sidious, was about to defeat him in the Force contest, too, just before the Force energy exploded. Sidious was pushed from leaning forward into his attack to leaning backwards during that brief contest.

The only reason why Yoda lost was because there weren't fighting on equal ground. He wouldn't have lost his lightsaber permanently by Sidious' final attack and there wouldn't have been a possibility to drop down from a rather great height. And, of course, we wouldn't have Clone Troopers on their way to save the Chancellor, as was the case in RotS.

Originally posted by Nai
Oh. I missed that one...



I'm totally surprised. A guy named Sidious ignoring a fact that would make the character Sidious look weaker? Gosh. Who would have thought about that?!



Come again? This time in English, please.
From what I've understood, let me just say this: Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant in debates here. We deal with canon. Canon states clearly, that Sidious received a noticeable boost in power from the unbalancing in the Force while the Jedi's ability to use the Force were diminished. So, for a "truely neutral" setting, Sidious would be less powerful while Yoda would be more powerful.

@Sinious


One word for you: Wrong!
I've demonstrated mathematically, that the Senate pod is a position of advantage for Sidious, because of what it would mean to fight a foe with Yoda's height on equal ground right here. I guess, that not having to sacrifice 1/3 to 1/2 of his range advantage and 2/3s of the manouvers you can utilize, in order to be capable of hitting your opponent, counts as advantage.



Because disarming an opponent in a lightsaber fight is "a small detail" when attempting to compare the fencing skill of the two beings involved in the fight?



Wrong. See above.
And it is Sidious who picks the Senate pod for the lightsaber fight, not Yoda. I don't think that Sidious would move the fight to a place in which he would be at disadvantage. Which he doesn't, as demonstrated in the posting linked above.



Yoda, fighting from a position of disadvantage, apparently disarmed Sidious in a lightsaber fight.

Yoda on equal ground with Sidious, was about to defeat him in the Force contest, too, just before the Force energy exploded. Sidious was pushed from leaning forward into his attack to leaning backwards during that brief contest.

The only reason why Yoda lost was because there weren't fighting on equal ground. He wouldn't have lost his lightsaber permanently by Sidious' final attack and there wouldn't have been a possibility to drop down from a rather great height. And, of course, we wouldn't have Clone Troopers on their way to save the Chancellor, as was the case in RotS.

Canon says he received a significant boost from the death of his master. Once again to bend the force to a specific side shows great power. I agree Yoda is powerful, but not more powerful than Sidious. If he were than why would the novel say that Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious? He's not more powerful in the force. Maybe in sabers he's more skilled, but even that is up for debate. The imbalance of the force I shall never be apart of anything involving me because once gain to cause the imbalance requires great power. To cloud the vision of the Jedi council requires great power. If you could show me where it says the imbalance of the force caused Sidious to receive a power up would be nice. If that was the case then why didn't Luke just crush Sidious in Dark Empire? The force would be on Luke's side, and he does have the most force potential of any living being as of Dark Empire yet he was beaten by the Emperor. Another example. Maul and Obi. If the force were helping the dark side then why was Obi able to stalemate and beat maul and his brother at one time. Anakin and Obi. Same thing. If you could provide the canon source that actually says and explains this that would be better.

Your point of Sidious being weaker is speculation. If what you say is true we don't know how powerful Sidious is. We just take Sidious where he is and what we see.

My feelings don't matter? Who created this thread? My feelings and intentions decide this match? So my feelings annd intentions are that the force never increased Sidious to the degree you speak or even close, and that a neutral setting for what you describe is not the one I describe. It woudl be impossible to know. I told you what I meant by neutral, so you can either take it or leave it.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Wasn't Sidious in a disadvantaged position in their lightsaber fight? Wouldn't it make a difference being on neutral ground?


Considering Sidious, not Yoda retreated to that stand, no. There's no actual evidence that Sidious was 'disadvantaged' +The fact that he retreated from neutral grounds leads credence to the idea that Yoda was winning up until the Grand Convocation chamber.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering Sidious, not Yoda retreated to that stand, no. There's no actual evidence that Sidious was 'disadvantaged' +The fact that he retreated from neutral grounds leads credence to the idea that Yoda was winning up until the Grand Convocation chamber.

I can go into a cramped space to get from point A to point B doesn't change the fact it's uncomfortable and cramped. Sidious isles his force speed in certain ways, and the cramped spaces made it difficult for Sidious to use his force speed to the effective point he did agaisnt Windu or maul and savage. He could ahve retreated to the pod to gain the force advantage.

@ Nai

(I just read the first part of your posts there and stopped for obvious reasons)

1) You're missing the point. Yoda had to specialize on a fighting style to make up for his disadvantage is what you're telling me basically. And I'm telling you that in this fight, he didn't even have the disadvantage. Its like A'Sharad Hett vs Kenobi. Kenobi has mastered using the environment against his enemies but he was still in a disadvantageous position against Hett due to environment and had to use his env manipulation technique which is still an advantage for Hett as it wouldn't be the case on neutral flat terrain.


2) We don't even know how he disarmed him. And yes, it is a small detail since it happened under unnatural circumstances.

3) The senate pod was a disadvantage for Sidious. We've already established that the moment everyone realized Sidious couldnt pull his acrobatic stunts. He may have moved the fight there because he wanted to elevate to higher ground for using the other senate pods or perhaps he was simply arrogant enough to assume he could withstand Yoda even in a disadvantageous position. He might've even failed to calculate the advantage Yoda would have there. Stuff like this always happens. Revan for example is considered one of the best strategists in the lore but people criticize him for his way of reacting to Vitiate's FL in their fight. Bad choices by masterminds during under pressure and mid combat could be made all the time. After all Sidious was surprised by Yoda's attack where Yoda was mentally prepared for this fight(another advantage perhaps?).

4) Nah, none of your explanations make sense so I'll stick to "Sidious was disarmed due to bad setting".

You're referring to a single text from the novel yet many other sources (including other parts of the novel) state that Yoda was the one who was depleted. This is why I (generously) keep saying "Just call it a stalemate!"

Why was Yoda on lower levels when Sidious managed to get up so high in the first place? Clearly, Sidious was in control of the fight and managed to elevate himself in an advantageous position as after that point Sidious was raining pods on Yoda while Yoda was merely surviving and dodging the TK attacks. For the same reason, Yoda lost his saber as he had to leap towards Sidious which made him vulnerable to losing his saber so it again further supports Sidious' supremacy in the force).

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I can go into a cramped space to get from point A to point B doesn't change the fact it's uncomfortable and cramped. Sidious isles his force speed in certain ways, and the cramped spaces made it difficult for Sidious to use his force speed to the effective point he did agaisnt Windu or maul and savage. He could ahve retreated to the pod to gain the force advantage.

Considering he was disarmed by Mace that's a poor example. Also if we're talking about neutral ground we also have to consider that the Force isn't going to be ****ed up by Plagueis and Sidious' galactic ritual and Yoda's ability to use the force isn't going to be diminished as it was during the PT. Yoda fought on par with Sidious while the entire bloody galaxy was essentially a DS nexus.

^ If the entire Galaxy is a Dark Side nexus, then surely that is Neutral Ground. I mean where else are they supposed to fight, in another Galaxy? Or in a different time period?

In any case, I didn't see this DS Nexus massively amp Sith Anakin. Also doubt Sith Dooku is massively more powerful than Jedi Dooku who Yoda already named "The Temple's Greatest Student" (In Canon now as well as in Legends).


Although Nai brings up a good point that Yoda's Saber likely wouldn't have gone far/beyond reach on neutral ground. But then neither would Sidious's Saber I guess. Same in the Mace fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ If the entire Galaxy is a Dark Side nexus, then surely that is Neutral Ground. I mean where else are they supposed to fight, in another Galaxy? Or in a different time period?

Different time period. Like 20 years before AOTCs or any of the thousands of years the Force wasn't imbalanced. Sidious and Plagueis' weapons crippled the entire order. Basically having Sidious fight Yoda in 19 BBY is like Sidious fighting Yoda with prep. On 'neutral ground' i.e. any of the thousands of years when this wasn't the case, Yoda wins.



1. That's because the Force has been that way Anakin's entire life. That's why Anakin was born, it was the Force itself's response to the Galaxy tilting towards the Dark Side.
2. The ROTS novel explicitly states that he was an "even more powerful Sith Lord".



Sidious is a master of the seven forms of lightsaber combat, stated to be a master of every weapon and every form. The idea that he would be disadvantaged in any area is virtually unfounded. There's no proof Sidious is faster than Yoda either. Point is, Yoda's disarming of Sidious is a legitimate feat. Its a ridiculous double standard that the Sidious wankers are so willing to say Sidious was disadvantaged in the pod, but then refuse to acknowledge the same ****ing reason why Yoda 'lost' the fight.

Yoda in sabers and Sidious in the other two.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its a ridiculous double standard that the Sidious wankers are so willing to say Sidious was disadvantaged in the pod, but then refuse to acknowledge the same ****ing reason why Yoda 'lost' the fight. I never denied any of these dynamics that might've affected the outcome of the fight. My point on the contrary is that they are probably equal. The little details of the fight are being brought up to prove Yoda's supremacy so I'm mentioning those that prove Sidious' as a balancing reaction.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Different time period. Like 20 years before AOTCs or any of the thousands of years the Force wasn't imbalanced. Sidious and Plagueis' weapons crippled the entire order. Basically having Sidious fight Yoda in 19 BBY is like Sidious fighting Yoda with prep. On 'neutral ground' i.e. any of the thousands of years when this wasn't the case, Yoda wins.



1. That's because the Force has been that way Anakin's entire life. That's why Anakin was born, it was the Force itself's response to the Galaxy tilting towards the Dark Side.
2. The ROTS novel explicitly states that he was an "even more powerful Sith Lord".



Sidious is a master of the seven forms of lightsaber combat, stated to be a master of every weapon and every form. The idea that he would be disadvantaged in any area is virtually unfounded. There's no proof Sidious is faster than Yoda either. Point is, Yoda's disarming of Sidious is a legitimate feat. Its a ridiculous double standard that the Sidious wankers are so willing to say Sidious was disadvantaged in the pod, but then refuse to acknowledge the same ****ing reason why Yoda 'lost' the fight. Every Sidious fanatic I have seen here uses these double standards all the time. It's easy to spot and even easier to point out but you'll hear the excuses all the same from the Sidious apologists pretending it's different.

Man I've never seen someone so butthurt. This guy still can't get over the fact that Sidious destroys Khan.

Originally posted by Sinious
Man I've never seen someone so butthurt. This guy still can't get over the fact that Sidious destroys Khan. Khan would crush him even though that's off topic. Khan doesn't beg for mercy when he experiences some pain or cries like a woman as a cyborg tosses him to his death. Khan alone was a threat to a galactic power while Sidious lost to some rebels despite having an emotive at his beck and call. Want me to create a thread to compare the mental acumen of Khan to Sidious ? Let's finish this.

Khan got the shit beat out of him by Spock. Sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spock.

Your move.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Khan got the shit beat out of him by Spock. Sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spock.

Your move. Khan also crash landed and sprinted through a city prior to this fight. Khan beat Spock and Uhura showed up with a weapon and eight blasts. Khan also wasn't armed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark


Sidious is a master of the seven forms of lightsaber combat, stated to be a master of every weapon and every form. The idea that he would be disadvantaged in any area is virtually unfounded. There's no proof Sidious is faster than Yoda either. Point is, Yoda's disarming of Sidious is a legitimate feat. Its a ridiculous double standard that the Sidious wankers are so willing to say Sidious was disadvantaged in the pod, but then refuse to acknowledge the same ****ing reason why Yoda 'lost' the fight.


They fought on neutral ground first anyway and it was Sidious's choice to move the fight to the pod. So that's that.

I agree, just pointing out that it goes both ways. If on neutral ground Sidious might have still dropped his Saber, but not necessarily lost it. But same goes for Yoda being disarmed by Sidious's FL.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Khan would crush him even though that's off topic. Khan doesn't beg for mercy when he experiences some pain or cries like a woman as a cyborg tosses him to his death. Khan alone was a threat to a galactic power while Sidious lost to some rebels despite having an emotive at his beck and call. Want me to create a thread to compare the mental acumen of Khan to Sidious ? Let's finish this. Finsh what exactly? How about we do a Thanos vs Smeagol one? Sounds equally exciting tbh.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Khan also crash landed and sprinted through a city prior to this fight. Khan beat Spock and Uhura showed up with a weapon and eight blasts. Khan also wasn't armed.
Don't you pull that situational shit on me. Khan was morals off.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Don't you pull that situational shit on me. Khan was morals off.


Oh he'll pull it. When it suits him.

If someone else brings up context his favorite line is "coulda, woulda, shoulda."

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They fought on neutral ground first anyway and it was Sidious's choice to move the fight to the pod. So that's that.

I agree, just pointing out that it goes both ways. If on neutral ground Sidious might have still dropped his Saber, but not necessarily lost it. But same goes for Yoda being disarmed by Sidious's FL.

They never fought on neutral ground. That building was under Empire's control. Sidious already shown, that he wanted to flee if he would have a chance. So Yoda had to be close to him and chase him all the time, instead of trying to find a high ground (like Sidious did).

Sidious needed to survive, Yoda had to kill Sidious. Yoda was in tactical disadvantage and on the enemy's territory. It's can't be called "neutral ground".

Originally posted by McP
They never fought on neutral ground. That building was under Empire's control. Sidious already shown, that he wanted to flee if he would have a chance. So Yoda had to be close to him and chase him all the time, instead of trying to find a high ground (like Sidious did).

Sidious needed to survive, Yoda had to kill Sidious. Yoda was in tactical disadvantage and on the enemy's territory. It's can't be called "neutral ground".


Good points.

Originally posted by Sinious
Finsh what exactly? How about we do a Thanos vs Smeagol one? Sounds equally exciting tbh. I sense fear in you. Let's see what you're made of.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Don't you pull that situational shit on me. Khan was morals off. He was unarmed and had Spock beat. We don't ever ignore the circumstances or the state he was in. Your ignorant answer lacked the context which is a biased answer. Khan is superior to Palpatine in both mental acumen and combat formidability.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In the films themselves we see Kenobi spewing inaccuracies. He says to Anakin it was said you would destroy the Sith not destroy them.

Originally posted by Trocity
Destroy the Sith not join them.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Good points.

Thanks. There is one more thing: at the end of that fight, it seemed that Yoda had the upper hand just before that Force explosion. Just as in TCW. But this time, Yoda was worse position (he was on the edge of pod), and he fall. On neutral ground, in vision, Sidious was the one who fall from that bridge.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
5/10.

The actual fight in ROTS was just one of Sidious's 5.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
So they split in each category ??

Originally posted by Sinious
@ Nai

(I just read the first part of your posts there and stopped for obvious reasons)

1) You're missing the point. Yoda had to specialize on a fighting style to make up for his disadvantage is what you're telling me basically. And I'm telling you that in this fight, he didn't even have the disadvantage. Its like A'Sharad Hett vs Kenobi. Kenobi has mastered using the environment against his enemies but he was still in a disadvantageous position against Hett due to environment and had to use his env manipulation technique which is still an advantage for Hett as it wouldn't be the case on neutral flat terrain.

Yoda specialized in a fighting style to make up what disadvantage?
His height compared to a normal person standing on equal ground with him and his reach compared to a person standing on equal ground with him. Most of Yoda's movements, as I've demonstrated in the linked posting, are happening on ground level, because part of his fighting style is capitalizing on the fact that - usually - his opponents almost need to bend down in order to hit him (see Dooku locking sabers with him in AotC). I've demonstrated the latter with pure math. So?

This is taken away from him by moving the fight to the podium.



What "unnatural circumstances" are you talking about?



First off: I've already demonstrated, that the podium was not an disadvantage for Sidious. It's just math. Stop arguing facts. Thanks. That aside: What acrobatic stunts? The multiple ones he does utilize against Mace and the other Jedi coming to capture him? LOL.



Excuse me.
Can we take a moment of our time and consider the fact that Sidious tried to run from Yoda, after experiencing the power of the Jedi Master first hand. So what we know is, that Sidious was impressed enough by that demonstration to think he won't win this fight. Mind you: Against an opponent that he thought he could destroy easily, right before getting his ass shoved across his own desk.



Yoda still does not have an advantage there. Fact.



Red herrings, sorry excuses.



"I can't refute your points, so I'll just say, that they don't make sense. Begone, argument!"

Seriously?



I'm referring to the movie, which is the highest form of canon, additional information from the script, which is another form of G-canon.



Oh, well.
Maybe, because Sidious, as you may have noticed, it about three times Yoda's height. So, even assuming that they are equal in the Force, Sidious, being aided by the Force in a similar fashion, would be capable of jumping higher / farther than Yoda.

You also appear to have missed the pod that Yoda did throw at Sidious. Against gravity, Sidious doesn't even attempt to stop it , but jumps away. Likewise he didn't attempt to push against the pod when Yoda had just stopped it. Maybe because he suspected, that he wouldn't win such a direct force contest?

Likewise, I don't see how Yoda losing his saber demonstrates Sidious' "suremacy" in the Force. Given how Yoda instantly catches Sidious lightning and then pushes the Sith Lord backwards, that bit of the fight supports the idea, that Yoda is the more powerful between them - much like that caught pod does.

Originally posted by Nai
Yoda specialized in a fighting style to make up what disadvantage?
His height compared to a normal person standing on equal ground with him and his reach compared to a person standing on equal ground with him. Most of Yoda's movements, as I've demonstrated in the linked posting, are happening on ground level, because part of his fighting style is capitalizing on the fact that - usually - his opponents almost need to bend down in order to hit him (see Dooku locking sabers with him in AotC). I've demonstrated the latter with pure math. So?

This is taken away from him by moving the fight to the podium. Then why does Yoda keep jumping upwards while fighting to match their heights and suffer from stamina instead of staying low and let his short height "advantage" be an advantage when facing opponents on neutral ground?

The weird shape of the platform they fought on like I said.

Like I said, I didn't read your 20 pages long essays in another thread so no you haven't and considering how the fighting style of Yoda contradicts with your claim(the need to jump upwards), I don't think any mathematical explanation is gonna prove your point.



I don't know, like the entirety of this fight?


So what? Yoda's TK has nothing to do with Sidious' cockiness as a duelist. Also, if we're going there, then Sidious took out Yoda with one burst of lightning and could've easily killed him there. It would've been the humiliation of the millennia. The force exchange in the beginning of the fight doesn't really mean much unless you wanna concede to "Sidious can kill Yoda with 1 quick attack+a following deathblow".

Read above.

Supporting evidence on my claim here which is "genius' can make mistakes in mid combat in SW Universe". Though I'm pretty sure the reason they fought there is cause Lucas wanted the fight to look more epic but whatevs.

The script itself depicts the senate platform as "confined space" which works a lot better for Yoda than Sidious for obvious reasons. lol

Do you have any proof on this? That height determines the jumping capabilities of force users? If not, I won't be able to take this seriously as it doesn't make sense. Also, that difference shouldn't really make such a huge difference in where they manage to place themselves in combat especially considering the Yoda's superiority amirite?

Yeah, instead he laughs at Yoda's attempt to throw it back which again could be due to his arrogance. Its pretty clear in his facial expression actually.

About the force clash, 2 quotes where in one it says "Sidious appeared doomed" and on the other it says "Yoda had reached the limits of his strength." They don't necessarily contradict each other as an explanation of this sort can be made: Yoda was there to kill Sidious. It is only natural that he went all out and got depleted quicker than Sidious where Sidious kept more of his power and didn't unleash it as suddenly as Yoda did. This may have caused Sidious to look overwhelmed for a moment. However, if the force fight kept on occurring, Yoda might've fallen short in keeping up and lose the force contest same as Sidious might've been eventually overwhelmed. However, it ended with a stalemate and they are depicted as equals so again: