Dooku & Anakin vs RotS Sidious

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Kurk
Instead of killing Dooku, the two once-enemies team up to bring down the dark lord of the sith.

Sabers
Force
All Out

EmperorSidious2
Sabers- I can see the team pulling the victory, however Sidious moved to fast for Anakin to see so I can see him being able to take down Anakin fast enough but I'm not sure.

Force-Sidious

All out- Sidious.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Sabers- I can see the team pulling the victory, however Sidious moved to fast for Anakin to see




No he didn't, because Anakin never saw Sidious fight in the movie. So Canonically he never saw how fast Sidious fights.

FreshestSlice
I always wondered why people used a N-Canon feat like that to give Sidious, who hardly needs it, leverage, especially considering it wasn't canon even when the book was published?

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No he didn't, because Anakin never saw Sidious fight in the movie. So Canonically he never saw how fast Sidious fights.

Arent the books still canon?

FreshestSlice
Only when they align with what's on screen. But again, that was always the case. Anakin never, in any time ever, saw Palpatine fight Mace.

EmperorSidious2
Ok so that part is just something he threw in ok. Wait this isn't limited to just canon is it? This is Sidious all around and all around he can do that, at least I woudl think. That woudl only say that Anakin doesn't know I how fast he can logically fight due to him not being able to.

FreshestSlice
There is never a time that Sidious is shown to be able to move faster than sight, so it's N-Canon. It didn't happen. It's not applicable. Yes, Sidious can move fast, but since he is never actually shown to move that fast, it's not a valid feat.

The_Tempest
Fortunately, the Legends/canon separation helps clear the air. That scene is no more or less canon than any other Legends work, like TFU or KOTOR or... SWTOR.

FreshestSlice
You know, besides the fact those all happened, where as Anakin seeing Sidious fight never has?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You know, besides the fact those all happened, where as Anakin seeing Sidious fight never has?

But it did happen... in the book. as far as what is "canon" is concerned, technically none of those things happened.

a devious technicality to be sure, but a strong one.

Nephthys
No, not really. It was hardcore retconned. 2 versions of the same event can't occur and make sense. It's absolutely N Canon.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, not really. It was hardcore retconned. 2 versions of the same event can't occur and make sense. It's absolutely N Canon.

calm down, I didn't say it was canon. It's Legends.

Nephthys
No, it isn't. It's non-canon to Legends.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, not really. It was hardcore retconned. 2 versions of the same event can't occur and make sense. It's absolutely N Canon.

So all of SWTOR is non-canon and worthless in debates until we get perfect clarification on Dark Side vs Light Side choices? mmm

Or do we just treat them as alternative outcomes?

We saw three Shaak vs Galen fights, all at the same level of canon. If those two fought, the fight is never, ever, going to go the exact same way. They are each just as valid as the other in terms of how the fight could go.

And if you're discussing Legends and Canon unified Sidious, it's exactly the same here.

The_Tempest
sel, I'm giving you the thumbs up right now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it isn't. It's non-canon to Legends.

I might be more inclined to take your word for it if you were armed with something other than indignation.

Besides, "non-canon to Legends" doesn't even make sense.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
So all of SWTOR is non-canon and worthless in debates until we get perfect clarification on Dark Side vs Light Side choices? mmm

Or do we just treat them as alternative outcomes?

We saw three Shaak vs Galen fights, all at the same level of canon. If those two fought, the fight is never, ever, going to go the exact same way. They are each just as valid as the other in terms of how the fight could go.

And if you're discussing Legends and Canon unified Sidious, it's exactly the same here.

Video game choices are different. There's no contradiction because the events aren't set in stone. Yes, they're alternative outcomes. Each is just as valid as the other and it's ambiguous about which occured so all are open to be recognised.

The 3 versions of the TFU is a big problem and there should be a discussion about which is the accepted version. I would not accept 3 different versions that contradicted each other.

No, it isn't. Because one source explicitly retcons the other and has a higher level of validity. The novel has absolutely no legs to stand on other than that some people want it to.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There is never a time that Sidious is shown to be able to move faster than sight, so it's N-Canon.

...um, I'm pretty sure Sidious has fought faster than Darth Maul can percieve on mutiple occasions. erm

I mean, even the lower level Jedi/Sith can move invisibly fast.

The_Tempest
Nah, there's no higher Legends work to "contradict" the novel.

The fact that it doesn't mesh with "canon" shouldn't be grounds to dismiss a Legends source. I mean after all, George ultimately axed the presence of Bane and Revan's spirits in TCW on grounds that dark siders can't exist in that way after death.

does that mean Nihilus and vitiate and all other manner of spectral sith must cease to exist?

food for thought.

FreshestSlice
Yes there is. Legends still works like the old EU. Where G-Canon is above the novels, which are C-Canon.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
...um, I'm pretty sure Sidious has fought faster than Darth Maul can percieve on mutiple occasions. erm

I mean, even the lower level Jedi/Sith can move invisibly fast.
No.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
Video game choices are different. There's no contradiction because the events aren't set in stone. Yes, they're alternative outcomes. Each is just as valid as the other and it's ambiguous about which occured so all are open to be recognised.

The 3 versions of the TFU is a big problem and there should be a discussion about which is the accepted version. I would not accept 3 different versions that contradicted each other.

No, it isn't. Because one source explicitly retcons the other and has a higher level of validity. The novel has absolutely no legs to stand on other than that some people want it to.

And since there's no higher level of Legends that retcons the novel, it's in exactly the same boat.

So you decide what's Canon/Legends now? Happy Dance

Wow, you really switch your stance depending on the debate, don't you. If this was a discussion about a canon quote saying Sidious is the strongest Sith, you'd be rambling off your head about how canon doesn't apply to Legends. Pick a side, Neph.

When you say this is an amalgamation of Sidious' Legends/Canon personas, as most discussions are, the novel is valid. #dealwithit

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes there is. Legends still works like the old EU. Where G-Canon is above the novels, which are C-Canon.

I guess I missed that. link?

Nephthys
I've never said that, actually. Or indicated I would.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I've never said that, actually. Or indicated I would.

just out of curiosity, Neph, if there did in fact exist such a quote or should such a thing ever come to pass, how would you apply it?

FreshestSlice
It was never canon in the EU, why would it be now?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It was never canon in the EU, why would it be now?

None of the EU is canon. Hence the bifurcation - you have canon and you have Legends, which plays host to a wealth of elements that contradict canon.

There's no such thing as canon Legends. disregarding certain Legends feats on the grounds that they contradict canon is silly.

The old canon tier system was in effect prior to the bifurcation in order to align the EU with canon in one cohesive vision. It couldn't work, which is why disney ultimately opted to part ways with the extant EU.

I don't see why the tier system dedicated to aligning the EU with canon would still be in effect when the whole point is that none of it is or shall ever be canon.

Emperordmb
Because the holocron continuity database is a Legends source.

I'd agree with Sel on the TFU thing though.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because the holocron continuity database is a Legends source.

Yeah, you're going to have to explain the significance of that.

Emperordmb
It should still count in the Legends continuity

FreshestSlice
Good point.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Emperordmb
It should still count in the Legends continuity

Not following lol.

The holocron continuity database is a collection of all the EU lore, a holdover from the old paradigm. since all that lore still technically exists in Legends, I don't understand how the significance of its existence factors in to our discussion here.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by FreshestSlice


No.

Yes, LAL.
Everyone from Bane to Grievous have moved imperceptible fast. Palpatine happens to move faster than even Force sensitives can see like he did against Maul, on like 2-3 separate occasions (E.I. Wrath of Darth Maul, Episode 1 Journal, etc)

Angelalex242
To the point, Sidious in all 3. The Chosen One hasn't achieved enough of his potential, and Dooku will get WTFPwned by Sidious in the Force. Sabers only gives Sidious the biggest challenge to be sure, but he still takes it.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Fortunately, the Legends/canon separation helps clear the air. That scene is no more or less canon than any other Legends work, like TFU or KOTOR or... SWTOR.


Well since the OP didn't mention Legends, I assumed canon.

If people want to talk Canon and Legends together, then I'm assuming Canon takes priority in terms of contradictions. But that's just me.


Originally posted by Angelalex242
and Dooku will get WTFPwned by Sidious in the Force.


I don't think Dooku will be as easy to take out mid-saber fight tbh. Anakin would be the easier one for Sidious to Tk Stomp IMO.


Originally posted by Angelalex242
Sabers only gives Sidious the biggest challenge to be sure, but he still takes it.


Doubt Sidious takes Sabers. This duo is on a completely different Saber Tier to Maul and Opress.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, there's no higher Legends work to "contradict" the novel.

The fact that it doesn't mesh with "canon" shouldn't be grounds to dismiss a Legends source. I mean after all, George ultimately axed the presence of Bane and Revan's spirits in TCW on grounds that dark siders can't exist in that way after death.

does that mean Nihilus and vitiate and all other manner of spectral sith must cease to exist?

food for thought.

The movies are still canon to Legends. And since they're actually canon, they take precedent.

Didn't season 6 have a ton of sith ghosts though, lmao?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, LAL.
Everyone from Bane to Grievous have moved imperceptible fast. Palpatine happens to move faster than even Force sensitives can see like he did against Maul, on like 2-3 separate occasions (E.I. Wrath of Darth Maul, Episode 1 Journal, etc)
Except he obviously doesn't move faster than Force Sensitives can see in any actual confrontation with him. It's a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, whether for him, Bane, random Sith/Jedi 5, or anyone.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
The movies are still canon to Legends. And since they're actually canon, they take precedent.

Didn't season 6 have a ton of sith ghosts though, lmao?

So you say. But that's all, really.

Nah, illusions conjured by the Priestesses.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except he obviously doesn't move faster than Force Sensitives can see in any actual confrontation with him. It's a bunch of hyperbolic nonsense, whether for him, Bane, random Sith/Jedi 5, or anyone.

Um...yes he does? The text clearly says so, so I have no idea what you're actually trying to argue here, LAWL.

You can ignore all you want, but Force sensitives moving faster than sight is common knowledge, and is accepted as such.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Deronn_solo


You can ignore all you want, but Force sensitives moving faster than sight is common knowledge, and is accepted as such.


Too bad it was never portrayed as such in the Movies or in the Animations. That's solely a Legends thing as far as I'm aware.

FreshestSlice
It's not even a universally Legends statement. Plenty of Legends material have Force Users moving at relatively believable speeds, using precog to make up for it.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Too bad it was never portrayed as such in the Movies or in the Animations. That's solely a Legends thing as far as I'm aware.

I was never actually referring to Canon, tbh. Just Legends; where your average run on the mill trained Force sensitive moves at invisibly fast speeds. Or relatively decent Jedi can run 100 meters in under a second.

As far as stricly Canon goes, I can't form that opinion since I've haven't read much of it yet.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.