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SSJ3 Gotenks was Super Boo-level.

Given the casual nature in which Gogeta beat Janemba(who I also believe was around Super Boo-level), I'd have to say he wins.

Janemba wasn't Super Buu level. SSJ3 Goku was about equal to SSJ1 Gotenks. Gotenks had to go SSJ3 to match Super Buu. Meaning Super Buu was AT LEAST 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No way Janemba was THAT much stronger than Goku

True.

SSJ3 Goku was at least capable of staggering Janemba with his blows. If Janemba were Super Boo-level, this likely would not have been the case.

This may be a closer fight than I first thought... mmm

Originally posted by Galan007

SSJ3 Goku was at least capable of staggering Janemba with his blows.

Janemba was suppressed though, he only powers up at the end when Gogeta appears

Also, Goku's blows affected him like Full Power Perfect Cell's punch affected SSJ2 Gohan, as in not all that much

I also think Toei puts SSJ3 Buu arc Goku much higher than in the manga, but that's a whole other topic

Nothing points to Janemba being more than twice as strong as Goku. Surely nowhere near 8x

It would be a miracle if Gotenks didn't one-shot Gogeta under this tips.

Originally posted by Galan007
True.

SSJ3 Goku was at least capable of staggering Janemba with his blows. If Janemba were Super Boo-level, this likely would not have been the case.

This may be a closer fight than I first thought... mmm I dont even think Janemba feel over the whole movie. Gogeta did not even acomplish that.

Can someone give me a brief explanation why SSJ3 Goku = SSJ1 Gotenks?

Gogeta shit stomps and I dare that pussy Gogeta to show up and price otherwise.

Originally posted by Placidity
Can someone give me a brief explanation why SSJ3 Goku = SSJ1 Gotenks?

I think it stems from Base Gotenks losing to Fat Buu offscreen pretty definitively. SSJ3 Goku was more or less Fat Buu level(he claims he could beat him but Goku has not got the best grasp of SSJ3). So SSJ3 Goku is at the very least much closer to SSJ Gotenks than the base form. Both were also weaker than Super Boo so they share the same ceiling. SSJ Gotenks could really harm Super Buu but Buu was not taking him very seriously.

That said Gogeta will obviously win. The sum of his parts are simply better. The SSJ3 might close the gap but I certainly see Gogeta lasting long enough for the boys to tire themselves out. Two experienced warriors vs two kids. Simple as that.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I think it stems from Base Gotenks losing to Fat Buu offscreen pretty definitively. SSJ3 Goku was more or less Fat Buu level(he claims he could beat him but Goku has not got the best grasp of SSJ3). So SSJ3 Goku is at the very least much closer to SSJ Gotenks than the base form. Both were also weaker than Super Boo so they share the same ceiling. SSJ Gotenks could really harm Super Buu but Buu was not taking him very seriously.

That said Gogeta will obviously win. The sum of his parts are simply better. The SSJ3 might close the gap but I certainly see Gogeta lasting long enough for the boys to tire themselves out. Two experienced warriors vs two kids. Simple as that.

Got it.

But I do believe Goku when he says he could've beaten Buu.

The other thing is if we use Goku at the end of DBZ, he would've gotten a zenkai and a better handle on SSJ3 after using it a few times and getting a good beating.

Random Q's

- Can fused warriors gain a zenkai? If so, do the individuals make the same gains once they are unfused? Logic would dictate that fused individuals would make some gain, but the extent is unknown. However even in this case if Saiyans want to get stronger, I think they should always train fused. Not only do we already have SSJ3 Gotenks as an example, but in fused form they can just take so much more of a beating than individually and the zenkai should be higher.

Thoughts? I'm making this stuff up as I type it.

- Can Goten or Trunks reach SSJ2/3 individually? We've never seen it happen, so its reasonable to assume they cannot. But why is this? These are transformations, its not like they need to get to a certain power level to activate it - at least this is my understanding.

Originally posted by Placidity
Got it.

But I do believe Goku when he says he could've beaten Buu.

The other thing is if we use Goku at the end of DBZ, he would've gotten a zenkai and a better handle on SSJ3 after using it a few times and getting a good beating.

Random Q's

- Can fused warriors gain a zenkai? If so, do the individuals make the same gains once they are unfused? Logic would dictate that fused individuals would make some gain, but the extent is unknown. However even in this case if Saiyans want to get stronger, I think they should always train fused. Not only do we already have SSJ3 Gotenks as an example, but in fused form they can just take so much more of a beating than individually and the zenkai should be higher.

Thoughts? I'm making this stuff up as I type it.

- Can Goten or Trunks reach SSJ2/3 individually? We've never seen it happen, so its reasonable to assume they cannot. But why is this? These are transformations, its not like they need to get to a certain power level to activate it - at least this is my understanding.

Eh it's not that I think he definitely couldn't but just looking at most of Goku's guesses he tended to underestimate the Buus. He thought he could beat Kid Buu if he'd gotten to rest for a bit but that didn't work out quite like he'd hoped. But again not saying he's wrong.

They presumably would both get the Zenkai boost. The Zenkai boost is based on experience and both characters are experiencing the defeat.

We've never seen them go SSJ2/3 outside of fusion but it seems unlikely. SSJ3 is massively taxing on the body to the point where even Goku has a hard time with it. Gotenks is stronger than either kid individually and even he could only do it for 5 minutes. It is also simply a fact that the kids are super talented. Combining their talents yielded the necessary abilities to go SSJ3. Which makes sense. Gohan could surpass his father at 9 by going SSJ2 so there is a basis for half-Saiyans having sheer natural talent over the pureblooded ones. Two combined becoming SSJ3 makes sense to me.

Manga-wise, Ssj3 Gotenks godstomps Ssj Gogeta in the same way Ssj3 Goten would godstomp Ssj Vegeta: the superior skills of the adults mean nothing when the gap in power is so vast.
The only way for Gogeta to win is to go Ssj3, otherwise he gets beaten up.

Originally posted by Placidity
Can someone give me a brief explanation why SSJ3 Goku = SSJ1 Gotenks?

Goku said that Ssj Gotenks pre-Rosat would be stronger than himself and more than enough to wipe out Fat Boo: at the time of that statement, Goku also said that the kids wouldn't even need to train in the rosat in order to take out Fat Boo and he also didn't even manage to conceive that the kids could go Ssj3 while fused.
After that, Goten and Trunks also trained in the Room of Spirit and Time in order to face Super Boo and Gotenks became even stronger.
Actual power chain is: Ssj Gotenks (post Rosat) > Ssj Gotenks (pre Rosat) >= Ssj3 Goku.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
It would be a miracle if Gotenks didn't one-shot Gogeta under this tips.

Originally posted by Placidity
- Can fused warriors gain a zenkai? If so, do the individuals make the same gains once they are unfused? Logic would dictate that fused individuals would make some gain, but the extent is unknown. However even in this case if Saiyans want to get stronger, I think they should always train fused. Not only do we already have SSJ3 Gotenks as an example, but in fused form they can just take so much more of a beating than individually and the zenkai should be higher.

- Can Goten or Trunks reach SSJ2/3 individually? We've never seen it happen, so its reasonable to assume they cannot. But why is this? These are transformations, its not like they need to get to a certain power level to activate it - at least this is my understanding. 1.) Probably not. When two characters fuse, an entirely new being is spawned--the individual warriors *technically* do not exist during that 30 minute period. That's why training in the RoSaT increased Gotenks' power astronomically, while Goten/Trunks each gained a nominal increase, at best.

2.) No, they cannot. As I mentioned above: fusion gleans an entirely new warrior. What the amalgam can do is not necessarily indicative of what the sum of its parts can do.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Goku said that Ssj Gotenks pre-Rosat would be stronger than himself and more than enough to wipe out Fat Boo: at the time of that statement, Goku also said that the kids wouldn't even need to train in the rosat in order to take out Fat Boo and he also didn't even manage to conceive that the kids could go Ssj3 while fused.
After that, Goten and Trunks also trained in the Room of Spirit and Time in order to face Super Boo and Gotenks became even stronger.
Actual power chain is: Ssj Gotenks (post Rosat) > Ssj Gotenks (pre Rosat) >= Ssj3 Goku. Exactly.

Originally posted by Galan007
1.) Probably not. When two characters fuse, an entirely new being is spawned--the individual warriors *technically* do not exist during that 30 minute period. That's why training in the RoSaT increased Gotenks' power astronomically, while Goten/Trunks each gained a nominal increase, at best.

2.) No, they cannot. As I mentioned above: fusion gleans an entirely new warrior. What the amalgam can do is not necessarily indicative of what the sum of its parts can do.

Exactly.

The only possible hole with that explanation however is that Gotenks clearly improves over time.

That is, he did not reach SSJ3 in one go.

So if they fuse and train and improve, but after they revert back to individuals and there are no gains (or very little), how does one explain that when they fuse again they don't just start back on square one?

First thing I can think of is that there is some sort of "memory", but just can't see how this can be logically explained in detail, even if you could just make it up.

Shut up, nerd.

A fused character definitely has a 'power-memory', just like any other being would.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Shut up, nerd.

Are you sure they have dropped?

Originally posted by Galan007
A fused character definitely has a 'power-memory', just like any other being would.

Not quite like any other being...

I think if you think about how the logic behind it works, it would not be that simple. And I'm not necessarily saying you need to know the details. For example, I don't know exactly how Ki works, but I have no problem just accepting it.

This fusion power memory thing though, stretches it a little to much for me.

...Except that we know fusion DOES have a 'memory', because Gotenks doesn't start back at ground zero every time he is spawned... He retains his previous level of power.

This isn't just some theory of mine, it is incontrovertible fact.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Except that we know fusion DOES have a 'memory', because Gotenks doesn't start back at ground zero every time he is spawned... He retains his previous level of power.

This isn't just some theory of mine, it is incontrovertible fact.

Yes, that was what I said when I brought it up, because that is the only thing that comes close to making sense... but how does it work?

What I think is this is something AT did not even consider. It's up to us to make stuff up.

Yeah, it's impossible to know what the mechanics are behind fusion. It's certainly not something Toriyama ever considered.