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Naga Sadow vs Darth Nox vs Darth Zannah vs Darth Wyyrlok III

Fight takes place in the Dark Temple. Standard morals and equipment.

Who emerges victorious from this battle of the arcane masters?

Nox wins, Wyyrlok III is fraking close though.

Hmm.. you have Nox/Wyyrlok above Sadow and Zannah? Why?

Sadow can't stack up, he's far less powerful than Nadd and Nox surpassed Hord. Zannah? Her best and only comparable feat was amped by Lake Nath heavily.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sadow can't stack up, he's far less powerful than Nadd and Nox surpassed Hord. Zannah? Her best and only comparable feat was amped by Lake Nath heavily.

Please show me the so-called quotes I've been hearing about where Khem Val says Nox surpassed Hord. Because Sadow's spirit in-game can knock you down as Nox with no way of countering the technique, which could be interpreted as inferiority.

Zannah also used a Cloaking Spell on herself and Bane in RoT, a whole decade before DoE, and it was so powerful that even a decade later, when the Huntress attempted to peer into the past and use her Psychometry to investigate her surroundings she was repelled. She wasn't amped when she performed the feat.

Oh, and this is the Dark Temple, meaning she has access to her tendrils.

Zannah tentacles it up.

Nox blows them up

A heir is not a superior, lol.

Yeah.

Khem Val repeatedly compares Nox to Hord in strength, that is stated at the end of the class story. He is clearly referring to Hord's power and Nox grew even more powerful after that.

Being comparable and growing more powerful still doesn't mean she's above Nox.

She surpassed Khem's estimation that she was as powerful as Hord by Act III ending.

Where in Act III does Khem Val say that she was as powerful as Hord? If he did, you should've just posted it before.

Khem compares her negatively to Hord throughout the game. The end is merely him stating that shes now worthy of being his heir, not his superior.

Yeah, so there's absolutely nothing to put Nox above Hord.

Yeah, she's impressed him with her power so he declares that maybe she makes a worthy successor. Not superior.

I did not claim that Khem Val stated her to be superior, only a successor and heir to his power. Then she became more powerful continuously afterwards, including a genuine power/immortality increase during the Revanite war. The logical inference being that Nox eventually surpassed Hord.

You said Khem had Nox on par with Hord at the end of Act III, which, as of yet, seems to be a blatant lie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah tentacles it up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You said Khem had Nox on par with Hord at the end of Act III, which, as of yet, seems to be a blatant lie.

So because you have taken a blatant comparison of power out of context then I am lying? Hilarious. Khem Val states Nox is Hord's successor and heir because of how strong she is. You've got nothing to stand on.

a comparison which is virtually worthless when you consider the fact that most of what we know of Hord comes from khem val himself.

I have no doubt that Hord is beastly, but what beyond that?

Do we have any reason to doubt Khem Val's claim? He respected Hord's power but has never embellished feats. We know the Dashade's stories including TKing a Hammerhead sized cruiser is one hell of a showing, breaking a Jedi siege also comes to mind.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Do we have any reason to doubt Khem Val's claim? He respected Hord's power but has never embellished feats. We know the Dashade's stories including TKing a Hammerhead sized cruiser is one hell of a showing, breaking a Jedi siege also comes to mind.

"stories," to borrow your word, aren't exactly convincing. accolades and feats from more concrete sources like the swtor codex and stuff are much more persuasive.

I mean if we took every character's claim at face value in absence of direct contradiction, I'm sure consensus would be quite different.

But again there comes the question, does Khem Val embellish feats incredulously? I strongly doubt that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
But again there comes the question, does Khem Val embellish feats incredulously? I strongly doubt that.

How would we know? What reason do you have to strongly doubt that? You could make the argument that khem val admires Hord precisely because of those feats. Or you could say that khem val admires Hord and so naturally talks him up to his new friends thousands of years later.

It's too vague for my liking, honestly. Besides which, the inevitable problem 'round here when it comes to character claims is that some people like to take some claims at face value when it benefits their positions while disregarding other character claims because they undermine other positions, with often no rationale provided.

Khem Val isn't just some Jedi Historian smoking weed though. He witnessed these feats personally and just hasn't the personality for wanking others unless they warrant it through gaining considerable degrees of his respect. Given Hord's other hype and the feats of his peers none of these supposed feats are unprecedented.

he claims to have witnessed these feats personally and I'm unconvinced by your psych evaluation of him. Professional historians and students of history can be prone to romanticizing the past and aggrandizing certain elements about it. similarly, people are more than capable of exaggerating aspects of their idols if their admiration is pervasive enough.

again, I have no doubt that Hord is beastly. But the degree to which some rank him is precariously supported tbh.

Khem being a first hand account of the events makes him reliable enough. Like AP said, he respected Hord's strength. If he felt the need to lie about his power he wouldn't have respected him as much as he did. Plus he doesn't care enough to lie to Nox about it.

Even so surpassing one of the most powerful Ancient Sith is by no means dismissable and shows how high Nox ranks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Khem being a first hand account of the events makes him reliable enough.

khem being Hord's contemporary and servant does not mean that he personally witnessed all these events, only that he's claimed to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like AP said, he respected Hord's strength. If he felt the need to lie about his power he wouldn't have respected him as much as he did.

I'm unconvinced. That khem respected Hord's strength does not preclude the possibility that he exaggerates it.

darths Tyranus & vader are students of history and respect the Emperor's strength; does that mean that their every conclusion about his capabilities is 100% reliable and unexaggerated?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus he doesn't care enough to lie to Nox about it.

What makes you say so?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Even so surpassing one of the most powerful Ancient Sith is by no means dismissable and shows how high Nox ranks.

What does that mean? How impressive are the ancient sith with respect to combat? When Naga sadow and ludo kressh, each also ranking among the most powerful of the ancient sith, duked it out, all they did was throw bricks at each other.

Without their trinkets and artifacts, the most powerful of the ancient sith might be only as threatening as a group of angry construction workers.

Yes because two master sorcerers are going to stand there throwing spells at each other? I think not. It was primarily a sword contest with TK thrown in for advantage.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes because two master sorcerers are going to stand there throwing spells at each other? I think not.

Why wouldn't they?

Originally posted by AncientPower
It was primarily a sword contest with TK thrown in for advantage.

I see. so what you're saying is that they were observing some silent protocol for fights to the death?

Why is no one mentioning that successor and heir does not even remotely imply superior?

I did.

and Neph doesn't want you guys to know this but I was the one who told him that so it's really my idea.

Orite.

I was too disgusted with the majority of the posts to read the whole thread

I would probably be most inclined to side with Naga Sadow.

Well, to get back on topic......

To look at a potential way this fight could go down.

Sadow V.S. Zannah ; Wyrrlock V.S. Nox

Sadow V.S. Zannah could go either way. Sadow is skilled with illusions though I doubt those will fool Zannah regardless. I would be inclined to go with Sadow, unless Zannah is able to conjure her Dark Side Tendrils and annihilate him, in a close fight. Personally I am unfamiliar with how long it takes to use this ability though I feel Sadow could pressure Zannah with force abilities to keep her from utilizing it effectively. Though arguments for the opposite are welcome.

Wyyrlok V.S. Nox is an interesting match-up in my opinion. Wyyrlok is damned impressive at illusions and mental assaults, as well as Force lightning. As well as being a very good duelist as he held his own against Krayt for a time. However these are Force abilities Nox's ascent to power gives him magnitudes of defense against, and Wyyrlok is hardly one to rush in for a duel. Specifically Wyyrlok's mental assaults. In this case I feel the sheer uselessness of Wyyrlok's most potent techniques against a mentally-fortified, Mother-Machine-Rebuilt Nox would gives Nox a crippling advantage over Wyyrlok. Ultimately leading to a hard-fought, but achievable, victory.

After that, Nox V.S. Sadow I have no idea currently. Of course I appreciate others elaborating on where I may be incorrect, and thoughts on the likelihood of this scenario.

Everyone knows he had an army of dark side warriors.

The question was always if he took them along to both Yn and Chabosh.

Khem Val says he soloed Yn, which had at least a thousand Jedi.

Uh, yeah. The whole story was that he broke a siege single handedly. You can't have a siege if no-ones getting besieged. Doesn't mean he had to have used help.

Alternatively, Ants right that nothing overtly states he had major forces with him in that particular battle.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Everyone knows he had an army of dark side warriors.

The question was always if he took them along to both Yn and Chabosh.

Khem Val says he soloed Yn, which had at least a thousand Jedi.

Why would he leave them on Chabosh and attack an army of 1,000 Jedi on his own exactly? And the text doesn't make a difference between the two battles. If Hord had decided to go and solo the 1,000-Jedi-army, the Codex would probably mention it.

That aside: How could Hord have done it "singlehandedly", when he had Khem Val with him? Probably, the Dashade wanted to express that Hord's action during the battle were, what ended the siege. I still doubt that he took down 1,000 Jedi himself - unless he prepared some ritual and Force drained them Vitiate style.

Hord grows stronger with each kill in a similar fashion to Khem. It's really not that unbelievable.

Originally posted by Selenial
Why is no one mentioning that successor and heir does not even remotely imply superior?

Are you blind, nobody has claimed that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
a comparison which is virtually worthless when you consider the fact that most of what we know of Hord comes from khem val himself.

I have no doubt that Hord is beastly, but what beyond that?

Is your English comprehension lacking? By act 2 Khem Val considers Lord Kallig a potential successor to Tulak Hord because of her new strength. Once crowned Khem Val considers Nox to be Hord's true hier because of how powerful she is.

Darth Nox grows more powerful over the years leading to the Revanite War, during said war Nox's immortality and power is increased by ancient machines in the 'Secret of the Darkest Stars'. Nox is still growing more powerful, still has vast potential to achieve and is clearly the most powerful Sith in the galaxy by 4.0.

Just so you can process that: Nox grew more powerful past the point Khem Val believes she achieved the strength to be his true hier and successor.

Understand now, it is really quite simple.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Is your English comprehension lacking? By act 2 Khem Val considers Lord Kallig a potential successor to Tulak Hord because of her new strength. Once crowned Khem Val considers Nox to be Hord's true hier because of how powerful she is.

Darth Nox grows more powerful over the years leading to the Revanite War, during said war Nox's immortality and power is increased by ancient machines in the 'Secret of the Darkest Stars'. Nox is still growing more powerful, still has vast potential to achieve and is clearly the most powerful Sith in the galaxy by 4.0.

Just so you can process that: Nox grew more powerful past the point Khem Val believes she achieved the strength to be his true hier and successor.

Understand now, it is really quite simple.

And literally none of that means she's Hord's superior

I'm glad you understand.

:mmmm:

Originally posted by AncientPower
:mmmm:

At this time I'd like to offer my services as a translator. I understand English is apparently difficult for you, so at your request I would be happy to rewrite this thread in Spanish, French, German or Norwegian so you might better understand how mentally deformed you are portraying yourself to be.

In case that still isn't good enough for you, perhaps I can put your argument in algebraic terms so you might understand how ****ing retarded it actually is

Kulvax AP's argument:
A = Nox
B = Hord
Numerical value = Arbitrary power gain.

A < B
Therefore A+2 > B.

Yeh, you go to any mathematician and they'll tell you how disabled that is.

Nox defeated "supremely powerful" Darth Thanaton, Hord dies.

****ing Thanaton could fly with lightning

Clearly the sign of a Vader level force user

You guys are so mean to each other.

Vader can't even use lightning, what a loser.

Originally posted by carthage
****ing Thanaton could fly with lightning
WTF has become of Star Wars...

And after all this time, there's still nothing to put Nox > Hord.

Originally posted by Selenial
At this time I'd like to offer my services as a translator. I understand English is apparently difficult for you, so at your request I would be happy to rewrite this thread in Spanish, French, German or Norwegian so you might better understand how mentally deformed you are portraying yourself to be.

In case that still isn't good enough for you, perhaps I can put your argument in algebraic terms so you might understand how ****ing retarded it actually is

Kulvax AP's argument:
A = Nox
B = Hord
Numerical value = Arbitrary power gain.

A < B
Therefore A+2 > B.

Yeh, you go to any mathematician and they'll tell you how disabled that is.

So let me get this straight. Khem Val compares Darth Nox to Tulak Hord in terms of strength and power. At first the Dashade believes Hord was far more powerful than the 'little Sith'. Then he changes his mind when Nox greatly impresses him with how much power she has achieved. Calling her Hord's true hier and successor(Revan was similarly awe-inspired by her rise to power).

And your interpretation of that is, it's absolutely no indication of power compared to Hord's and the fact she became much more powerful years after this is still absolutely no indication? Why do you people require so much hand-holding to grasp basic logical inferences?

Originally posted by AncientPower
So let me get this straight. Khem Val compares Darth Nox to Tulak Hord in terms of strength and power. At first the Dashade believes Hord was far more powerful than the 'little Sith'. Then he changes his mind when Nox greatly impresses him with how much power she has achieved. Calling her Hord's true hier and successor(Revan was similarly awe-inspired by her rise to power).

And your interpretation of that is, it's absolutely no indication of power compared to Hord's and the fact she became much more powerful years after this is still absolutely no indication? Why do you people require so much hand-holding to grasp basic logical inferences?

You're again suggesting that heir and successor implies superiority or even equality. To quote yourself on that:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Are you blind, nobody has claimed that.

So if you could stop contradicting yourself, that'd be great.

A successor is somebody succeeding someone else, in this case Khem is stating that Nox succeeded Hord in power.

Being the successor just means that Nox was the "next Hord" - she had the hype and respect from Khem. In no way does it mean she's now a perfect match for Hord.

I never said a perfect match, she is on Hord's level.

Not necessarily.