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* RotS Dooku
* SoD Maul
* RotJ Vader
* Both Canon and Legends feats apply

Setting: The Senate Rotunda


1. DoE Bane, Barsen'thor and Katarn
2. HoT, Wyyrlok and Durron
3. Mace, Jaina and Cade
4. FE Malgus, Ulic and Krayt Reborn
5. Novel Vitiate and Wrath II
6. Plagueis and Tenebrous

They clear

1 is a solid fight but they win. They might actually lose 2, but probably not for a majority. They scrape past 3, but they could also lose 4. Assuming they make it past 4, they're either down at 5 or definitely down at 6. Most likely 5.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1 is a solid fight but they win. They might actually lose 2, but probably not for a majority. They scrape past 3, but they could also lose 4. Assuming they make it past 4, they're either down at 5 or definitely down at 6. Most likely 5.
Interesting.

Can you elaborate on 5?

Do you think Novel Vitiate can take Vader/Dooku combo while Maul fights Wrath II?

Vitiate could probably take Maul/Dooku while the Wrath holds off Vader.

Yeah, but I can see Dooku/Vader duo engaging Vitiate, as they are the most powerful ones on their team. And undoubtedly they will sense his power too.

At the same time I think Maul is sufficient to fight Wrath II.

Maybe, but it's not as if who they pick would be who they get.

Even so, Wrath II and Maul is basically an even split while Vitiate might get the better of Dooku in an early exchange of Force powers, which leaves him with the upper hand against Vader.

Well, tbh they might get what they are after as long as they fight smart, which all of three combatants from team 2 has shown.

Either way, Dooku rivals Novel Revan in the Force while Vader surpasses him. Not sure if Novel Vitiate has an advantage here, if at all.

Nah, Dooku doesn't rival Novel Revan. He also doesn't have much of a response to Vitiate's FLS.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, Dooku doesn't rival Novel Revan. He also doesn't have much of a response to Vitiate's FLS.
Not sure about that.


A being as powerful as Dooku can block it with a saber, if only for a tiny bit.

Also if Vitiate choses to FLS Dooku, Vader throws a pod at him.

A Lightning Storm could well affect both, and Dooku's saber defense/physical strength will only last so long. He doesn't have a way to get out of it.

Tbh I'm not sold on the notion that it will stall them both. If Vitiate tries that he will need to divide his attention to two beings that are comparable/superior to Novel Revan. That will not end well for him imho.

Not to mention the setting is something that Vader will relish in given his TK prowess.

In short their combined Force power is enough to overpower him.


BTW I hear Dooku gets new juicy Force feats recently. Anyone can confirm?

Revan's Tutaminis is well above Dooku/Vader's Deflection/Tutaminis. Vitiate dominated Revan - yes, it was on a nexus, but Dooku and Vader wouldn't be faring as well even off-nexus, IMO.

Not sure. Vader barrier feats are extraordinary. And Dooku does not need to go tutaminis. Besides both have different strengths to Revan's like raw power or refinement.

The latter part is interesting, yet still, pure speculation, as you know. Hard for me to address that as you may or may not be correct.

Vader's Barrier, as I recall, has only repelled blaster bolts. I believe there was also a more recent feat where it's logical to assume he repelled a pretty solid explosion. Which is good, to be sure, but Revan redirected Nyriss's Lightning, and Vitiate destroyed Revan's Force defenses with his own FLS.

Dooku has no options against it.

Vader barrier feats are more than that, but Id have to check if you want.

Dooku blocks it with a saber for 2 seconds.


I'd also would like to reiterate my previous point. Vitiate would need to direct his attention to two beings in Novel Revan's league. While he can defeat one,engaging two might be beyond him. Not to mention Vader has more raw power and better TK at his disposal.

Vader having more raw power and TK than Vitiate? I doubt it. His TK feats are probably better, but not raw power.

And what would happen after those two seconds?

Not really. A FLS is large enough to cover multiple people - it's not a stretch to say it could cover two.

Krayt Reborn might be the breaker here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader having more raw power and TK than Vitiate? I doubt it.
I meant Revan.

Revan > Vader tbh.

I say that the team stops at 6. Vader and Dooku being the most powerful on the team would fight Vitiate. That much power with vitiate not being in his prime these two could take him down. Maul would be able to hold off Wrath and maybe win, however it's close. So I give it to the team.

I just revisited Starkiller vs. Vitiate thread, and I am convinced that Vader/Dooku win against Novel Vitiate.


Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader having more raw power and TK than Vitiate? I doubt it. His TK feats are probably better, but not raw power.
TBH Vader raw power might be approaching Vitiate's, but definitely not his knowledge/mastery. Agreed on TK.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And what would happen after those two seconds?
Vitiate gets put on his ass.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. A FLS is large enough to cover multiple people - it's not a stretch to say it could cover two.
Perhaps. But I'm not sure why you chose this line of argument.

Are you arguing that overpowering one Revan-tier combatant means that Viti can overpower two Revan-tier combatants at the same time?
This seems at odds with common sense tbh, especially given that Viti vs. Revan fight was not an easy one for the Sith Emperor.

What about the power imput / division of attention required to keep both of them a bay?

Besides, while Revan attempted to tutaminis Vitiate's attack, Vader and Dooku have their sabers to do so.
Vader is both physicallly and in the Force stronger than Novel Revan and Dooku is reasonably comparable.
Both may be quicker than Revan as well.

Moreover, Viti charged his final FL attack against Revan. He does not have a distance that will grant him this advantage here.



In short, Vader may very well have superior TK to Vitiate, and Dooku is no slouch either. In a strick TK battle they beat Viti.

If one of them gets close (for example, Vader tanks Viti for a moment and Dooku engages him in close quarters) then it's over for Viti too.

And if you brought up nexus feats (albeit noting that it's hard to say how they apply in a fight on a neutral ground), then I too must express my doubts if Vitiate's FLS is as potent as it was on nexus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan > Vader tbh.

SOR Revan? Possibly. Novel Revan? Nah.

Clear.

1. They stomp
2. They stomp again
3. They take this with moderate difficulty
4. Might be a split.
5. Much asier then 4. Both Dooku and Vader are superior combatants to novel!Revan by small margin. Maul's aid should be enough for any of them to beat Vitiate. And Wrath II is the weakest fighter on battlefield.
6. They should take a small majority.

@Stigma -



Revan's raw power wasn't really approaching Vitiate's, so nah.



How?



With a single Lightning Storm he does not need to divide his attention between the two of them. The one Storm can engulf them both.



I think there's a reason Revan abandoned his lightsaber. Dooku is just below Revan - he'd get overwhelmed. Even if Vader doesn't, it's still him vs Vitiate and that's a scenario I fail to favor him in.



Not by any meaningful distance.



"The Senate Rotunda" is a very ambiguous term. If you have all five combatants holed up in the Chancellor's Podium, then of course Vitiate gets cut down before he can charge up, but that's a pretty stupid setting. I would assume Vitiate and the Wrath start on faraway pods, which would give the Emperor ample time to charge up.

Originally posted by Stigma
TBH Vader raw power might be approaching Vitiate's, but definitely not his knowledge/mastery. Agreed on TK.


Seriously?
Vitiate wields the combined power of 8,000 Sith Lords on top of his already prodigious own connection to the Force. How on earth would Vader's raw power even register compared to that?



This implies that Vitiate doesn't have any kind of Force defense. Or that putting him on his ass would make a difference...



Vitiate could probably just mind control the entire opposing team and make them kill eachother, since resisting his mind domination requires prior knowledge how to do it. And I don't think anybody could make an convincing case for Vader, Dooku or Maul resisting that.

Then there is also the fact, that he appears to be capable to summon lightning massive enough to fry the complete assembly of the Dark Council at once (read: 12 powerful Sith Lords) on one occassion. So he doesn't need to "devide attention", as he is very well capable of leveling the entire fighting field with a single Force attack.



This seems to assume that a lightsaber does - somehow - automatically deflect lightning. One has to channel the energy towards the blade in order for this to work, and I'd think that Vitiate, who could blast Revan's droid into shrapnel with a mere thought wouldn't let them keep their lightsabers, if they'd use them like this.



Wrong in both instances.
Revan's force exploits from the novel alone are well beyond anything Vader and Dooku have done so far, if we don't consider TK on Vader's side. Especially when it comes to force defense, where Revan has demonstrated the ability to easily block the lightning of Nyriss. The same Nyriss that turned two armored soldiers into charred husks just before and who was about to kill Meetra and Scourge together with the very same blast that Revan stopped before killing her. I don't see Vader or Dooku doing something like that - and Revan did it with ease.



He only resorted to using FL against Revan, because Revan proved immune against Vitiate's mind domination. Can't say the same about either Sith Lord in the trio. And that charged lightning did simple overpower Revan's aforementioned - extraordinary - force defense instantly.



Give me a call when Vader's spirit brings massive buildings down.



That's a very big "if" there...



In that case, I would express my doubt, that any of the PT era Sith would be capable of replicating one of their feats, without profiting from the Force being out of balance, favoring the Dark Side.

Stops at 2.

@stigma

Enjoying the ownage?

You sound mad salty. tbh.

Anyway, team clears.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Stops at 2.

@stigma

Enjoying the ownage?
Well, I haven't owned anyone in this debate, so not sure what you refer to. I am enjoying, however, a discussion with Razer and Nai.


BTW Let's take a moment and relish your helplessness. You are weak and you have failed Vitiate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan's raw power wasn't really approaching Vitiate's, so nah.
Revan's not the Chosen one, however.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How?
By forcing him back.

Originally posted by SunRazer
With a single Lightning Storm he does not need to divide his attention between the two of them. The one Storm can engulf them both.
It might very well engult them both, but it will also have to deal with them both.

I don't subsribe to your position that two Revan-tier opponents are as easily engaged as one.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I think there's a reason Revan abandoned his lightsaber. Dooku is just below Revan - he'd get overwhelmed. Even if Vader doesn't, it's still him vs Vitiate and that's a scenario I fail to favor him in.
That's Revan's problem, though.
Dooku will not get taken out immediately and when both him and Vader press Vitiate, the Sith Emperor will get overwhelmed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not by any meaningful distance.
It might be a deal breaker if they encircle Vitiate, for example.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"The Senate Rotunda" is a very ambiguous term. If you have all five combatants holed up in the Chancellor's Podium, then of course Vitiate gets cut down before he can charge up, but that's a pretty stupid setting. I would assume Vitiate and the Wrath start on faraway pods, which would give the Emperor ample time to charge up.
I assume they start at the Senate floor.

Those "mooks of unspecified power" have made it to the position of Sith Lord, which means that they are a part of the elite of a race of force users. And with "elite" I'm saying "most powerful than the average force wielder among the Sith". But regardless of their actual power level, it appears to be a rather wide stretch to assume, that Vader's potential beats the combined force power of 8,000 individuals.

And Vader had the largest potential in SW mythos, before having his limbs chopped off and taking a lava bath in RotS. That's why we don't see him ruling the Empire. While Vitiate was described as "infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss", "all-powerful" and was creating ripples in the air because of the Dark Side energy that emanated from his person.



Erm. Vitiate was put on his ass by a channeling of raw power from Revan and pushed back by a bolt of lightning deflected by Revan. And in the first instance, he had his attention on attempting to dominate Revan's mind (which would have worked normally), so he was unprepared for the Force attack coming. And when he was hit for the second time (by his own Force attack being deflected back at him) he is still on his knees and gets pushed some meters back.

Yet, in both instances, he was able continue the fight in split seconds. I'm not sure that Vader or Dooku could come up with a compareable attack or - assuming they can - capitalize on it, given that Vitiate appears to be completely unimpressed by the stuff Revan did fling at him.



Nope. Revan even feels the oppressive force of Vitiate's will trying to dominate his mind while engaging the Emperor in combat. Apparently, to Vitiate dominating the minds of others is his natural state of mind rather than something he needs to focus his entire attention on - though he does focus on it to a certain extend.



Eventually they died in a flash of lightning after pissing him off. I don't see much room for interpretation there. And yes, they might have been as powerful as Fisto - or as powerful as Dooku. But given that they were generally the two most powerful Force users in the Empire (Vitiate aside), I'd say it's more the latter than the former. That aside: Given that a later incarnation of Vitiate did summon room-sized FL to take out the strike team coming for him, I don't see much reason for him to need to divide attention between two targets right in front of him. And since he could mind-dominate Malak and Revan at the same time, that ability also doesn't seem to require any "devided attention"



You do realize, that he has simply mind-dominated Revan and Malak when they first visited him, right? Even to Revan's own recollection, it was not fair to call it a fight. That aside: Given his capability to come up with rather massive force attacks, there isn't much need for him to "devide attention", even should Vader and Dooku be compareable to Revan (which I seriously doubt in term of offensive force abilities and - at the very least in Dooku's case - raw power).



My other "assumptions"? If Force Lightning would automatically hit lightsaber blades, we would never see a lightsaber wielder getting hit by it while holding his weapon. AotC Anakin would disagree with that concept. And I was simply musing, that Vitiate might just destroy the weapons should they really use them to deflect his lightning - and that was a rather big assumption on your side.



I was referring to them being stronger in the Force / compareable to Novel Revan and them being quicker than him. Seriously. Novel Revan was easily capable of blocking Force Lightning of a force user that has instantly fried two people with it and was about to destroy Scourge and Meetra with a single application of the ability before Revan interfered. Neither Dooku nor Vader has demonstrated something compareable.

And for the speed: You're comparing a half-cyborg and an 80 year old to Revan, who, at that point in time, was...what? In his 30s? 40s? And who probably enjoys the better command of the force, meaning that he is probably capable of boosting his speed more than the likes of Vader and Dooku.



I meant "not considering it" when it came to the abilities in the Force where Revan does clearly outclass Dooku and Vader - which is pretty much everything aside of TK. And for his novel feats:


subconsciously senses approaching attack while asleep, reacts faster than guards.
disabling one Basilisk war droid with a single lightsaber attack
deflecting blaster-fire from three Mandalorians simultaneously at close range, killing one of them with it.
while being constantly drugged over years, the sheer strength of Revan in the Force, his raw power, made Scourge think that attacking the Republic would be suicide, if they had people like him in their ranks.
Meetra thought about Revan that his "command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met." Which would include illustrious personal like Nihilus, Kreia, Sion, Malak and Bastilla Shan.
intercepting Nyriss Force Lightning (which was pretty damn powerful), absorbing it and redirecting it at the Sith, turning her into a pile of ash instantly. This while recovering from being constantly drugged for years.
ripping an stone archway from the ceiling with apparent ease, blocking Imperial Guard from entering the Throne Room.
summoning Dark Side and Light Side energies into a concentrated Force assault that tossed Vitiate through the throne room.
deflecting lightning bolts back to Vitiate with his lightsaber.
healing himself with the Force after eating Vitiate's initial "lightning storm", that made his skin blister and glued the superheated metal of his mask to his "melting" face. Revan recovered from that in what seems to be less than a minute.

You may add his KotoR ingame feats.



First: I wonder why everybody nowaday assumes that, just because a planet is tainted by the Dark Side, it is automatically going to "amp" the Dark Siders operating there. Secondly: You may want to consider that Dooku and Vader both benefitted from an unprecendented shift of the balance of the Force towards the Dark Side for their entire Sith careers. Yet still none of them did utilize lightning on Nyriss' level.



Yes. They pretty much have to, given that Vitiate overwhelmed Malak and Revan with the ability and did so pretty much instantly. As did all other people he utilized the ability against.



Was that any kind of answer to my argument? I don't think so. Unless you wanted to proof that Vitiate's spirit is capable of Vader level TK.



Vader and Dooku's speed compares how exactly to that of Revan?
And I wonder how I should factor in the setting. There is no description of the distance of the combatants and when they start off at different sides of the rotunda, having to jump from pod to pod in order to close into an infight, this is clearly in Vitiate's favor. Even if they'd start a bladelength apart, Vitiate would probably blast them through the room before they can ignite their blades...



"I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished." - Mace Windu, Attack of the Clones.

Unless foresight is the only way the Jedi use the Force, the answer is: Nope.



I've already done that. You can check here. Plagueis and Sidious caused an imbalance in the Force that amped their Force abilities to the point where it increased their midi-chlorian count, giving them access to abilities previously out of their reach. And every Dark Sider from that point on to the demise of Sidious over Endor did profit from that "boost". So when you want to start talking about "nexus feats" you may want to consider that every single action of the PT/OT era Sith team was "boosted" - and probably to a greater extend than any Force nexus could archive.

Dookus' force Lightning vaporized stone or metal or something, I dunno it exploded right after it ricocheted from his right hand.

They stop at 3.