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*Battle takes place in the Illum Caverns

*Maul has access to his saberstaff/Dark saber

Maul/Savage Opress

vs.

Ki Adi Mundi, Sora Bulq, Anoon Bondara, Luminara Unduli

*morals off

Sora might lead his team to victory.

Maul and Savage. Their Force abilities are too much. I'd favour the Jedi in a pure duel, though.

The team takes this with moderate difficulty. Any of these masters can hold off Savage, and Darth Maul cannot hope to defeat 3 Jedi Masters, any two would give him a ridiculously hard fight. In the alternative where they split into 2 v 2 it still ends in a Jedi victory as 2 Council Masters are too much for Savage, and a fight between Maul and 2 Councilors will be a long hard fight.

You really think Anoon Bondara can defeat Savage?

Originally posted by ILS
You really think Anoon Bondara can defeat Savage?

I edited my post. No Bondara can't. But the other 3 have a shot. Hell, even Bondara could potentially take 1/10

What's stopping this from happening to any of them in your estimation, Stark?
http://i.imgur.com/eEd453X.png

Or this.
http://i.imgur.com/2Tzi4YZ.png

Orrrr this.
http://i.imgur.com/r1lPfYr.gif

Orrrrrrrrrr this.
http://i.imgur.com/TC7nkLm.png

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625231-savage+uses+force+wave.gif

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625104-savage+force+pushes+adi.gif

Not for very long at all, though.
Good thing he has someone here to split the load with him.
I'm doubtful. The only people here with the chops to really pressure Savage are Sora and maybe Mundi if he has help, but then you factor in Savage's TK and it stops mattering as much. Then you think about what Maul is going to do when he gets his last master alone and.. it becomes even more clear who wins.

Originally posted by ILS
What's stopping this from happening to any of them in your estimation, Stark?
http://i.imgur.com/eEd453X.png

Or this.
http://i.imgur.com/2Tzi4YZ.png

Orrrr this.
http://i.imgur.com/r1lPfYr.gif

Orrrrrrrrrr this.
http://i.imgur.com/TC7nkLm.png

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625231-savage+uses+force+wave.gif

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625104-savage+force+pushes+adi.gif


A weakened Kenobi who had just finished whooping his and Savage's asses vs. 2-3 very alert Jedi Masters who are all far more powerful than Gallia. Adi Gallia is one of the weakest Masters on the Council, she lost pretty solidly to 2 sabers Grievous. Hell in the very image you just posted some mook Jedi is resisting their combined TK.


Are you serious? It took Savage two minutes to kill Gallia. 3 Council tier duelists will not take that long to defeat Maul.

Yes indeed, too bad the 4 Jedi masters are a bit too heavy for both of them.



I strongly disagree with how much this TK is going to factor in. Neither of them have KO'd from TK alone and they certainly haven't demonstrated the ability to use it mid combat while fending off another high tier opponent. Maul is no Dooku and Savage certainly is not.

I think Luminara alone could last quite a bit longer than Gallia. She's so much better equipped to deal with someone like Savage than her.

I'm not entirely sure on the fight itself... but I think I'm leaning Jedi.

The Sith win.

Prove he was weakened.

I posted the Gallia instance to show Savage's willingness to use that technique, not as a power showing. If you want to know how powerful Savage is I'll direct you to him chucking Dooku and destroying Beskar, which by the way, is more than enough to suggest he'd throttle anyone here.

Chuckled at mook Jedi. They were masters selected by Windu specifically. They also have no showings one way or the other. Them resisting that TK is only a good feat for them, not an anti-feat for Maul and Savage. Also? Their TK was directed at an entire army composed of over a hundred soliders, not just those two.
You keep throwing "council level" around like the phrase matters to me. Gallia lasting that long is a great feat for Gallia. Nothing more.

Also, I've argued from the beginning that Maul and Savage will fight in unison. The only one unrealistically arguing that Maul has to solo three Jedi Masters in order to win this fight is you. Would be awfully convenient for your argument if Maul had to do that but unfortunately he doesn't.

Maul buried Kenobi under rubble and in another instance left him wheezing on the ground clutching his throat. Hell, without plot he could have closed his windpipe then and there. He's also dropped Aayla Secura while engaging Mace Windu at the same time. His ability to multi-task and quickly apply TK isn't something that should be in question.

Whenever Savage has been pressured by multiple opponents he's let out a repulse of telekinetic energy, one powerful enough even to stagger Maul in the comic Death Sentence, and in another instance, take Kenobi and Anakin off their feet. That kind of tactic is going to help substantially here because while the Jedi are coping with that, Maul is closing windpipes and smashing lightsaber defences to a pulp.

Originally posted by ILS
Prove he was weakened.

Seriously? Ataru makes Yoda exhausted after 30 seconds of swordplay with Dooku. Kenobi was utilizing Ataru for at least twice that amount of time.



Who is Beskar? And the Dooku thing is obviously a high end showing.



Gallia is not up to the level of the other great swordbeings of the Order. As I said, she lost to Grievous, solidly on neutral ground. Luminara, Sora, and Mundi would at least push Grievous to using 4 sabers if not defeat him.



Savage cannot hold off two Masters, and Maul would lose to 3. So no matter the balance they lose. As I said it took Savage a minute+ to end one Jedi Master who is solidly beneath most if not all the Masters here.



After Kenobi had spent the past 4 minutes fending off both Maul and his apprentice simultaneously. A scenario that Maul himself retreated from. And the second one is a nexus feat as far as I know.

You haven't cited a single instance of him multi-tasking. Kicking Aayla while fending off Mace is a martial application. And Aayla is hardly a veteran swordsman or a member of the Jedi Council, at best she's at the level of the weakest person on this team.



A repulse would be a poor strategem considering it'd also knock Maul off his feat. Second that is again a high end showing, which occurred right after he choked out Dooku and Ventress simultaneously given that he's never shown that level of power again for the duration of the series, I'd wager that he cannot replicate that on demand. Not to mention that Kenobi and Skywalker can be caught off guard as shown when Ventress of all people choked them both out at the same time.

Not to mention this battle takes place within the Illum taverns which is very likely a light side nexus.

Sorry, when was Yoda exhausted after 30 seconds?

Kenobi has sparred intensely with Fisto for hours, and that's years prior to his fight against the brothers. I'm sure his stamina was just fine.
Mandalorian Iron. And yeah, he seems to have a lot of those.
If you're referring to the Obsession duel, I'd point out that Grievous killed her with trickery there by blade locking her and then crushing her throat with his other two hands. Otherwise, at best Grievous kicked her in their TCW duel. Kicking someone doesn't mean they've lost.

So, yeah. Really not seeing your point. Savage's plethora of dueling showings against Kenobi, Anakin, Plo + clones, Ventress etc are more than enough to facilitate his skill, and your only response to his power thus far is "high end showing! high end showing!"
The only thing you could possibly be referring to is a palace located in a place called "Pleem's Nexus", which both isn't a Force nexus and wasn't where Maul choked Kenobi.

Shit outta luck there.
Technically, I have. More to the point though, you're gravely overestimating how long it takes Maul to close a windpipe or throw someone through a cave (hint: less than a second). Where he could be kicking Aayla he could alternatively send her flying with a blast.
Who was fighting next to Mace ****ing Windu.
I'm sure Maul would recover from it a little faster than Anoon Bondara. You're missing the main point that the team have no answer for Savage's overwhelming power when he chooses to use it. Maul catching a blast isn't going to be as crippling as you seem to want it to be. Probably just piss him off.
Sure, he can't evoke that level of emotion on demand. He also doesn't need to, because those he is fighting in this thread don't stack up to the people Savage throws around in other scenarios. And his other power feats (throwing armies around with Maul, busting supposedly impenetrable prison cells, shoving shuttles around very early on in his training) just add fuel to the fire.

There's no such thing.

Originally posted by ILS
Sorry, when was Yoda exhausted after 30 seconds?

When he dueled Tyranus.



Source? Not to mention sparring against Fisto for hours using Soresu is not the same as fighting for your life against two Sith Lords utilizing everything you've got.

No I'm referring to his utter trouncing of her here. Uh yes it does, considering later in the episode she is captured and has to be rescued by Plo Koon. Occam's Razor, Grievous defeated her with that kick.
aki9ovujajc




Its not just "high end showing! high end showing!" Its that if Savage and Maul could simply TK Jedi Masters with impunity anytime they want they would have simply TKed Ventress and Kenobi (who are their inferiors in the Force) or simply choked out Kenobi when they had him cornered. There's literally no evidence that on any given day Savage or even Maul can just casually choke out Kenobi.



Where did he choke Kenobi? I'm pretty sure a user here debunked that feat. But hey I'm willing to concede that point. Can you post the context? And even so its pretty damned obvious he cannot do that whenever he wants or he would have in their duels.



Prove it. To my knowledge, Maul has never killed Jedi with force choke, let alone a master.



The duel lasted like a panel bro. For all we know Maul jumped in and kicked Aayla and sliced at Mace. Stop embellishing the feat and making it seem like its the best shit since sliced bread.



You literally have no proof that Maul or Savage can overpower the collective force defenses of 4 Jedi masters. If Savage uses repulse they'll just block it. Similar to what Kenobi and Skywalker did when Dooku used his TK on obi-diah. Not to mention the Jedi aren't gonna sit there and let him TK them.



Uh, yes it is. Illum was discovered by a Jedi sensing Ilum's powerful presence from hyperspace. The Force is present within each individual crystal. Not to mention a Padawan being guided by the Force itself kind of like a wand choosing a wizard an Olivander's shop don't exactly happen on regular planets.

Originally posted by Lord Stark



Gallia is not up to the level of the other great swordbeings of the Order. As I said, she lost to Grievous, solidly on neutral ground. Luminara, Sora, and Mundi would at least push Grievous to using 4 sabers if not defeat him.





Kenobi's lost to Grievous as well. It's not that bad losing to Grievous, even though a Council Member should really be able to take him.

Also Grievous has fought better with 2 Sabers than with 4. When he only uses 2, he tends to surprise his opponents with attacks from his free hands.



Originally posted by Lord Stark


No I'm referring to his utter trouncing of her here. Uh yes it does, considering later in the episode she is captured and has to be rescued by Plo Koon. Occam's Razor, Grievous defeated her with that kick.
aki9ovujajc


Tbf we didn't see how she was captured. It could have been due to his forces overpowering her troops.





Originally posted by Lord Stark
Where did he choke Kenobi? I'm pretty sure a user here debunked that feat. But hey I'm willing to concede that point. Can you post the context? And even so its pretty damned obvious he cannot do that whenever he wants or he would have in their duels.







Context was Kenobi desperately running towards Maul trying to free a hostage. So Maul obviously caught him off guard, because a Saber fight hadn't even begun. Still a great feat for Maul, and shows the Council Members will all have to approach him very carefully.

But still I agree with you, that Maul obviously can't just do that to Kenobi anytime he wants. I'd have doubts even Dooku could do that to Kenobi anytime he likes.

Maul and Savage can take this 7/10

I feel Savage can at least hold off two of the any listed jedi with the exception of Mundi based on his rage performance with obi wan and anakin

Mundi and someone else would face Maul who can handle it by SoD

Not saying Jedi team has no chance of course

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Kenobi's lost to Grievous as well. It's not that bad losing to Grievous, even though a Council Member should really be able to take him.

Eh, but Kenobi never got captured by Grievous. At worst Grievous has the advantage.



Eh, I'd argue that 20 hits per second more than likely would trounce more opponents than just the surprise factor.





Occam's Razor. The path with the fewest assumptions should be taken. We see Gallia being flung back by Grievous the next time we see her she's captured. Sure Grievous could have had an extended battle with her or captured her with the assistance of battle droids, but then I could also argue that Darth Sidious himself was right behind Grievous and lol blitzed Gallia.








I'd agree with that. But I also think the notion that Maul is going to lol snap their windpipes with a gesture is unfounded.



Dooku can't do it anytime. Kenobi blocks his TK on Obi-Dia (granted with Skywalker's help, but considering all the dudes next to him got blown away I'd bet neither of them helped shield the other.

Originally posted by Kurk
Maul and Savage can take this 7/10

I feel Savage can at least hold off two of the any listed jedi with the exception of Mundi based on his rage performance with obi wan and anakin

Mundi and someone else would face Maul who can handle it by SoD

Not saying Jedi team has no chance of course

People using Savage's rage performance with Kenobi and Skywalker as a justification of what he can consistently replicate is just as ridiculous as saying Kenobi can solo Maul and Savage any day of the week. Its an outlyer. Sure it can happen but it'll happen 2 or 3 times out of 10.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, but Kenobi never got captured by Grievous. At worst Grievous has the advantage.


He did get captured. Grievous pretty much blitzed him. In the final Unaired Kyber Crystal arc on the official site, which is Canon.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, I'd argue that 20 hits per second more than likely would trounce more opponents than just the surprise factor.


But that's just making an argument out of a speed feat which was successfully blocked anyway.

In terms of actual performances though, Grievous has almost always fought better with 2 Sabers.





Originally posted by Lord Stark
Occam's Razor. The path with the fewest assumptions should be taken. We see Gallia being flung back by Grievous the next time we see her she's captured.


There's no need to make any assumptions though, as we didn't see how Gallia got captured. There's a hundred different ways she could have got captured.

But hey, one of those might be her getting blitz by Grievous the way Kenobi did


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sure Grievous could have had an extended battle with her or captured her with the assistance of battle droids, but then I could also argue that Darth Sidious himself was right behind Grievous and lol blitzed Gallia.




Except there's absolutely no reason to believe Sidious was there. But we know as a fact Grievous's forces were there, as were Gallia's forces.

And it's also pretty Unlikely Gallia could be captured if Grievous's forces didn't overpower Gallia's forces. Whilst it would also be very Unlikely for Gallia to escape if she stalemated (or even beat) Grievous but her Forces got overpowered.

LordStark-
Proof Yoda was exhausted? I'd find it startlingly inconsistent for Yoda to become out of puff after 30 seconds of fighting when a countless number of beings far less powerful than him would blow that kind of endurance out of the atmosphere on their worst day.

I think what's actually happening here is that your argument crumbles once you begin giving Maul his due in regards to TK.
The Cestus Deception. And Kenobi was using Ataru at that point, it was shortly after AotC. Also, lel, the disparity in energy output between Ataru and Soresu doesn't quite cover how hilariously different 30 seconds of fighting is from several hours. This stamina argument is straw grabbing at it's finest, bruh.
Utter trouncing? It was a back and forth duel until Grievous kicked her.There's Occam's Razor, and then there's getting kicked by an insanely powerful mechanical leg for one fight out of any number of possible scenarios. Not to mention? Luminara did no better against Ventress. Mundi did no better against Grievous. Anoon Bondara got utterly shat on by Maul. The only person who your argument applies to is Bulq: he is safely above Gallia.

And then the Force power argument comes in.
:/

Savage was winning his duel against Ventress primarily - he had no need to TK her (he was throwing Ventress around physically and she soon retrated, in contrast to him flattening Gallia as soon as she landed a kick).

Maul has TK'd Kenobi into submission with impunity, twice. I'll deal with your .. complaints .. about those instances later in my post.

Main point though? No two fights are the same. There are times when Maul and Savage do **** people up with TK, and times where they choose to duel. It's called versatile writing. Your argument amounts to "if he can do it why didn't he do it here!!!"
I believe DP gave you the context but here's the simple version: it was on a particularly ordinary planet with no special Force presence, certainly not a dark sided one. Maul choked Kenobi as he ran towards him, and held that choke over him against his will.
http://imgur.com/a/u2aPG

As we've seen described when Vader choked Galen, and Luke pinned Caedus: when someone is telekinetically restrained, they can resist and fight out of it.. if they can. In the former example Galen could, in the latter Caedus couldn't. It's the same with Kenobi; he just wasn't strong enough to break out of Maul's clutch. So yeah, with his Force shield crumpled all Maul has to do is apply his cliff-busting telekinetic strength to a small windpipe and it's night night.

Obviously it's never going to happen for plot purposes, but it's made explicitly clear by the comic that it could have... and even running with your hope that Kenobi's windpipe is made out of diamonds and happiness? He was still left wheezing on the ground while Maul took the time to kill another Jedi. The same is going to happen to any Jedi here, or they'll just get their throat shut.

http://imgur.com/a/5X8vR

"Slowly I will crush the life out of you"
lol. He's never failed to do so either, because aside from being put in front of Kenobi, who is plot protected, he hasn't ever been put into that position. So put your thinking cap on. If Maul can break through someone's Force Shield, what's stopping this from happening once they entirely lack a defence?:

http://i.imgur.com/vOOfZJh.png

(and yes, that's Maul. he was inside a nearby pub.)
Lmfao dude. A comic panel is a depiction of a frozen moment in time, with movement only being portrayed through techniques like afterimages. Maul was kicking Aayla while parrying Mace's blade. He could have held Mace's blade and then thrown Aayla at a wall or slammed several tons of pressure onto her windpipe at the same time. It doesn't take much time at all.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting Maul is going to just start oneshotting people in this thread. It's going to be a hard fight. I'm just making you aware that it's easily arguable he could, and otherwise the power advantage is just too big to ignore.
Your debating tactics are strange to say the least. Telling me I have no proof of claims that are inherently unrealistic, and aren't what I've been arguing from the beginning, only detracts from your argument, not mine.

Anoon Bondara is someone who is as good as non-Force sensitive as far as TK is concerned here. The others are better but certainly not more powerful than Kenobi. They don't need to kill four Jedi with the Force, just one or two.
Yeah, it's a Force nexus. Just like Naboo or the Jedi temple. There's no such thing as a light sided nexus though, because all that is is a regular Force nexus; the Force in a balanced state but in higher concentration than other locations. The Force in balance is what the Jedi define to be the Light Side. It doesn't weaken Sith.

But by all means, if you want to prove Illum will weaken Maul and Savage, go ahead.

Originally posted by ILS
LordStark-
Proof Yoda was exhausted? I'd find it startlingly inconsistent for Yoda to become out of puff after 30 seconds of fighting when a countless number of beings far less powerful than him would blow that kind of endurance out of the atmosphere on their worst day.





It's mentioned in the AOTC Novel, that the exhausted Yoda walked over to check on Anakin and Obi-Wan or something. After his fight with Yoda. But he did have to stop the Crane falling as well.

But I agree it is inconsistent given his Longer fight against a much more Powerful Sith Lord.

Team 1 wins for a majority.

Maul is one of the greatest duelists in the history of SW, and possibly now more skilled than Dooku. He can handle any combination of the two in a duel, or ragdoll one in combination with his brother.

Originally posted by carthage
Team 1 wins for a majority.

Maul is one of the greatest duelists in the history of SW, and possibly now more skilled than Dooku. He can handle any combination of the two in a duel, or ragdoll one in combination with his brother. Well I wouldn't go as far to rank him above Dooku but you're right in the sense that he can handle any of the two