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MMA octagon, no equipment, three rounds. Who wins and is it a ko or points decision?

Don't know who would win, but it would be a good fight. If I were to guess though, I'd give Bruce a slight win due to being physically stronger. This one would probably be settled with a score card.

Probably Bruce, he's larger and stronger

Bruce is better in every way, he destroys this puny DareDevil.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Bruce is better in every way, he destroys this puny DareDevil.

It would be tougher than you think because of Matt's radar senses. Bruce would have to be very tricky in order to even land a solid blow. I can't really see him destroying Matt.

Originally posted by Stoic
It would be tougher than you think because of Matt's radar senses. Bruce would have to be very tricky in order to even land a solid blow. I can't really see him destroying Matt. Radar Sense isn't > Skill

Batman is absolutely better in every way, and even if he couldn't outskill him or outmaneuver him, Bruce would use his brilliant mind to think up a strategy, he'd use his surroundings like Bullseye did at the end of the DD movie, get something loud.

And this is only if DD can outmaneuver, outmatch, or outskill him.

Batman will counter anything Matt will throw at him and treat him like an amateur.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Radar Sense isn't > Skill

Batman is absolutely better in every way, and even if he couldn't outskill him or outmaneuver him, Bruce would use his brilliant mind to think up a strategy, he'd use his surroundings like Bullseye did at the end of the DD movie, get something loud.

And this is only if DD can outmaneuver, outmatch, or outskill him.

Batman will counter anything Matt will throw at him and treat him like an amateur.

Doubtful. Matt is quite skilled himself, and you can't really use anything that happens in movies to undo the feats that actually happen in comics. Matt is skilled enough to go at it with Black Panther, and Iron Fist. Without gear to help him, Bruce wins, but he isn't going to destroy Matt. Just not going to happen.

Originally posted by Stoic
Doubtful. Matt is quite skilled himself, and you can't really use anything that happens in movies to undo the feats that actually happen in comics. Matt is skilled enough to go at it with Black Panther, and Iron Fist. Without gear to help him, Bruce wins, but he isn't going to destroy Matt. Just not going to happen. Wasn't aware Matt went up against Black Panther and Iron Fist.

Shouldn't be possible, but ok, Marvel Comics.

Matt Murdock

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wasn't aware Matt went up against Black Panther and Iron Fist.

Shouldn't be possible, but ok, Marvel Comics.

He went up against Spider Man as well, and didn't do to poorly. Considering the disparity in power, Matt's pretty darn good, but he does get his fair share of low showings from time to time.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wasn't aware Matt went up against Black Panther and Iron Fist.

Shouldn't be possible, but ok, Marvel Comics. lol? Do you know who Bruce somehow holds his own against...

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
lol? Do you know who Bruce somehow holds his own against...
This.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
lol? Do you know who Bruce somehow holds his own against... Thats because he's the best strategist and detective in DC, besides Deathstroke.

Matt is kinda... just a strong dude with radar sense.

Batman has trained his entire life to be the best at what he does, even in old age he still never givez up crime fighting completely.

Lol.


Matt takes this by KO.

Originally posted by Stoic
It would be tougher than you think because of Matt's radar senses. Bruce would have to be very tricky in order to even land a solid blow. I can't really see him destroying Matt. Then you need to see an ophthalmologist for your eye problem.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Lol.


Matt takes this by KO. Bruce would overpower Matt. He's stronger, faster, and better in every way. Also the fact that he's mastered just about every martial arts known to man in less then 20 years.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Bruce would overpower Matt. He's stronger, faster, and better in every way. Also the fact that he's mastered just about every martial arts known to man in less then 20 years.

All of that is debatable. Matt has swatted bullets from the air, flipped a limo with the Kingpin inside it, used a 300 pound barbell as a bo staff and has also been training since he was a child. Hell, his ninja skills are good enough that he can literally influence people not to see him even if he's sitting right in front of them. Couple that with his radar, and this scenario? Bruce is going down. It's by no means an easy fight, but still, it's happening.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
All of that is debatable. Matt has swatted bullets from the air, flipped a limo with the Kingpin inside it, used a 300 pound barbell as a bo staff and has also been training since he was a child. Hell, his ninja skills are good enough that he can literally influence people not to see him even if he's sitting right in front of them. Couple that with his radar, and this scenario? Bruce is going down. It's by no means an easy fight, but still, it's happening. Bruce has lifted 2klbs. before.

Also, Base Batman has had a building dropped on him, taken punches from Superman and was still durable enough to keep fighting.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Bruce has lifted 2klbs. before.

Also, Base Batman has had a building dropped on him, taken punches from Superman and was still durable enough to keep fighting.

Daredevil's gone up against the Hulk, Ultron, and actually travelled to hell itself and killed the devil (true story).

We can sling feats all day long, but in a fight like this, it's basically pic your favourite and run with it. What I don't understand is why you are so sure Bruce wins, when you don't actually seem to have much of an idea about Matt's abilities.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Radar Sense isn't > Skill

Batman is absolutely better in every way, and even if he couldn't outskill him or outmaneuver him, Bruce would use his brilliant mind to think up a strategy, he'd use his surroundings like Bullseye did at the end of the DD movie, get something loud.

And this is only if DD can outmaneuver, outmatch, or outskill him.

Batman will counter anything Matt will throw at him and treat him like an amateur.

There's nothing that says you have to act like a complete fanatic all of the time. The intended purpose of the post wasn't to jerk off Batman, there is enough of that shit. You sound really stupid by the way.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
There's nothing that says you have to act like a complete fanatic all of the time. The intended purpose of the post wasn't to jerk off Batman, there is enough of that shit. You sound really stupid by the way. First off, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Secondly, it's a vs thread, you're supposed to post who you think would win. Am I just supposed to be like "Bruce wins"?

No, because thats not in-depth enough.

You have to explain WHY someone wins, dummy.

I'm sorry you're angry I have a different opinion then you, but thats something you'll have to deal with in life, and bitching about it isn't going to change anything, have a nice day.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Bruce has lifted 2klbs. before.

Also, Base Batman has had a building dropped on him, taken punches from Superman and was still durable enough to keep fighting.


Retarded ass DC comics for you.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Retarded ass DC comics for you. Flaming the thread isn't going to change my opinion.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
First off, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Secondly, it's a vs thread, you're supposed to post who you think would win. Am I just supposed to be like "Bruce wins"?

No, because thats not in-depth enough.

You have to explain WHY someone wins, dummy.

I'm sorry you're angry I have a different opinion then you, but thats something you'll have to deal with in life, and bitching about it isn't going to change anything, have a nice day.

I don't care about your answer to the question posed, it's your fanboyism, hypocrisy and utter ignorance of Daredevil I commented on. Daredevil is just a what?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Retarded ass DC comics for you.

Shut up already and just leave the board you dumb troll.

Batman, he hits much harder than Daredevil does, every hit Daredevil lands will hurt but will be recoverable, every hit Batman lands will literally shatter something in Matts body and cripple him to the point where he can't fight back

When Daredevil can literally kick motorcycles in half and one shot 20 foot robots with a kick maybe he'll last a bit longer

That comment about Bruce using his brilliant mind and surroundings...is he going to throw the referee at Matt or something?
I think this fight favors Matt, who normally fights with minimal gear, as oppised to the usually well heeled Bruce.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
All of that is debatable. Matt has swatted bullets from the air, flipped a limo with the Kingpin inside it, used a 300 pound barbell as a bo staff and has also been training since he was a child. Hell, his ninja skills are good enough that he can literally influence people not to see him even if he's sitting right in front of them. Couple that with his radar, and this scenario? Bruce is going down. It's by no means an easy fight, but still, it's happening.
Bruce wins. He has been actually said to hit harder than Daredevil by Bullseye.

uhuh

In feats, Bruce far eclipses Matt. Deal with it.

And hitting harder is all it takes in comics.

Originally posted by riv6672
That comment about Bruce using his brilliant mind and surroundings...is he going to throw the referee at Matt or something?
I think this fight favors Matt, who normally fights with minimal gear, as oppised to the usually well heeled Bruce. Except you forget he trained without gear for years upon years.

He could literally cut trees down with his kicks, and break REINFORCED STEEL with his punches.

He doesn't need all the gear because his staff... thing is an all-purpose gadget. He can grapple with it, use it as a weapon, separate it.

It has a lot of uses.

Originally posted by riv6672
That comment about Bruce using his brilliant mind and surroundings...is he going to throw the referee at Matt or something?
I think this fight favors Matt, who normally fights with minimal gear, as oppised to the usually well heeled Bruce. Bruce fights with gear because the threats he fights usually eclipse the threats Matt fights, if you put Daredevil against characters that Batman has fought that required gear, Daredevil would get his ass kicked

If you put Batman with no gear up against characters that Daredevil has beaten with martial arts and billy clubs, Batman would beat the tar out of them

Different levels of threats, Bruce is an entire tier above Matty in pure martial arts.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bruce fights with gear because the threats he fights usually eclipse the threats Matt fights, if you put Daredevil against characters that Batman has fought that required gear, Daredevil would get his ass kicked

If you put Batman with no gear up against characters that Daredevil has beaten with martial arts and billy clubs, Batman would beat the tar out of them

Different levels of threats, Bruce is an entire tier above Matty in pure martial arts. You do know DD has beaten Deadpool, right?

I know Batman wins, but you can't outright assume Batman will always win against DD's enemies because DD beat them.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bruce fights with gear because the threats he fights usually eclipse the threats Matt fights, if you put Daredevil against characters that Batman has fought that required gear, Daredevil would get his ass kicked

If you put Batman with no gear up against characters that Daredevil has beaten with martial arts and billy clubs, Batman would beat the tar out of them

Different levels of threats, Bruce is an entire tier above Matty in pure martial arts.

Let's not get carried away. Bruce is a well trained comic book human just like Matt is. If Matt had the gear that Bruce has he'd do just fine against Batman's threats. If not, I guess you believe that Batman would beat the tar out of Iron Fist? Like I said, let's not get carried away.

take their feats out of it because otherwise this debate will go on and on, if you go by their stats Bruce wins this fight every time. Don't get me wrong, Matt is a great fighter but Bruce is that much better. His physical stats are superior, save for agility, I think Matt might actually have him beat there, he's Grayson level in that regard. In an Octagon however I don't see how that'd help much. As far as skill goes, Bruce has mastered all forms of unarmed combat and thats where he will gain the definite edge over DD, anything he can do Bats will be able to counter it and capitalize.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3818511-hyde+2.jpg

Matt's pretty good. If he can do this to Mr. Hyde, he'd be able to do it to the strongest of Batman's rogues.

^http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1117052-batvsgrundy_sb.jpg

Batman is more skilled, simply the better MMAtist, he is also physically superior, not that this matters so much. Batman wins 8-9/10.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1117052-batvsgrundy_sb.jpg

Batman is more skilled, simply the better MMAtist, he is also physically superior, not that this matters so much. Batman wins 8-9/10.

Grundy has different levels of strength. He's rarely at the same level. Wildcat put Grundy on his butt as well, so if he can do it, so can Matt. Bruce wins this, but it would be more like 5.5-6/10. You're too emotionally attached to one company that you aren't allowing yourself to see the truth.

Originally posted by Stoic
Grundy has different levels of strength. He's rarely at the same level. Wildcat put Grundy on his butt as well, so if he can do it, so can Matt. Bruce wins this, but it would be more like 5.5-6/10. You're too emotionally attached to one company that you aren't allowing yourself to see the truth.

Pot calling the Kettle black? Huh.

Wolverine is as good as Bruce in H2H imo, CA is close enough. Daredevil isn't, simple as that. BTW this is as objective as your DC hating and Marvel loving, "opinion".

it always the same when it comes to Batman, every hater always has some sort of excuse as to why Batmans feat doesnt count

Originally posted by relentless1
it always the same when it comes to Batman, every hater always has some sort of excuse as to why Batmans feat doesnt count

When did i say that Batman's feat didn't count? It simply isn't too much for Daredevil to replicate. Wildcat did it as well.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Pot calling the Kettle black? Huh.

Wolverine is as good as Bruce in H2H imo, CA is close enough. Daredevil isn't, simple as that. BTW this is as objective as your DC hating and Marvel loving, "opinion".

When did I say anything about Wolverine? I said that Wildcat has put Grundy on his butt as well. I just posted a scan of Daredevil touching Mr. Hyde and making him pass out. Why would Grundy be some insurmountable feat for him? This isn't the pot calling anything black bucko, it's you not being able to judge properly.

Originally posted by Stoic
When did i say that Batman's feat didn't count? It simply isn't too much for Daredevil to replicate. Wildcat did it as well.



When did I say anything about Wolverine? I said that Wildcat has put Grundy on his butt as well. I just posted a scan of Daredevil touching Mr. Hyde and making him pass out. Why would Grundy be some insurmountable feat for him? This isn't the pot calling anything black bucko, it's you not being able to judge properly.

You didn't, as you didn't grasp my opinion at all. Me giving you a Marvel char on par with Bruce in skill was supposed to show you where I rank DD in DC AND Marvel.
The Grundy feat is like the Hyde feat, nice and all but both have them.
You not being able to judge properly is nothing new, so go on with your "unbiased" opinion, brah.

Originally posted by relentless1
it always the same when it comes to Batman, every hater always has some sort of excuse as to why Batmans feat doesnt count

Yeah, like Batman couldn't replicate the DD/Hyde feat. What's funny is, just because another MA from DC did something similar and took on Grundy makes Batmans feat invalid and DD superior, bias at it's finest, or simply a very limited mind?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Yeah, like Batman couldn't replicate the DD/Hyde feat. What's funny is, just because another MA from DC did something similar and took on Grundy makes Batmans feat invalid and DD superior, bias at it's finest, or simply a very limited mind?

When you read something, it is very important that you read it critically, or you come out saying things like you just did, and even adding a smiley face to the detriment of your credibility. Giving Batman the win isn't enough for you, you have to drag him down to Jimmy Olsen, or Rick Jone's level. When you gave him a 20% possible chance of winning here is exactly what you did. This shows that your judgement skills need work.

Slight,SLIGHT edge to Batman.

He has more feats, but then, he's exponentially more popular than DD. The quality of their high feats, however, speak for themselves.

I reckon Batman is stronger, skill is a wash, and agility goes to DD. Matt's radar sense would come in handy, but without any gear, it doesn't take a master detective to see he is blind, and to use that (Matt generally uses it to semi predict when people are going to attack based on their heart rates etc).

Originally posted by Stoic
When you read something, it is very important that you read it critically, or you come out saying things like you just did, and even adding a smiley face to the detriment of your credibility. Giving Batman the win isn't enough for you, you have to drag him down to Jimmy Olsen, or Rick Jone's level. When you gave him a 20% possible chance of winning here is exactly what you did. This shows that your judgement skills need work.

facepalm Jimmy Olsen and Rick Jones. I used to read enough DD comics to judge this properly and Batman is superior. But to each fanboy his own.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Slight,SLIGHT edge to Batman.

He has more feats, but then, he's exponentially more popular than DD. The quality of their high feats, however, speak for themselves.

I reckon Batman is stronger, skill is a wash, and agility goes to DD. Matt's radar sense would come in handy, but without any gear, it doesn't take a master detective to see he is blind, and to use that (Matt generally uses it to semi predict when people are going to attack based on their heart rates etc).

I'm glad to see that we agree. Matt can see a person's heartbeat, tell when their about to leap by seeing the twitch fibers moving, he can smell fear, and other emotions based on the chemical changes that happen in people. He can see every nerve, he isn't a terrible MA (not as good as Bruce but not far off) Batman does win, but this isn't going to be some spanking, and Bruce isn't going to be breaking something with every hit. If that were the case Wilson Fisk would have put Matt in traction.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
facepalm Jimmy Olsen and Rick Jones. I used to read enough DD comics to judge this properly and Batman is superior. But to each fanboy his own.

I actually like Batman more than Daredevil. This isn't about give your favorite the nod because... well they're your favorite, but more about the truth, which you have a very difficult time telling. I understand your problem though.

Originally posted by Stoic
I actually like Batman more than Daredevil. This isn't about give your favorite the nod because... well they're your favorite, but more about the truth, which you have a very difficult time telling. I understand your problem though.

Sure you understand it, because it's your problem and now stop projecting your flaws on me, kk?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Bruce wins. He has been actually said to hit harder than Daredevil by Bullseye.

uhuh

In feats, Bruce far eclipses Matt. Deal with it.


Now, we both know that's non-canon.

As to the rest, I maintain my earlier stance. Their highs are comparable enough that a person is justified in choosing either combatant as the winner. I happen to choose Matt, particularly in this scenario. With all his standard gear? Bruce takes it.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Now, we both know that's non-canon.

As to the rest, I maintain my earlier stance. Their highs are comparable enough that a person is justified in choosing either combatant as the winner. I happen to choose Matt, particularly in this scenario. With all his standard gear? Bruce takes it.
It's non canon but it still gives us an idea to who the writer's would take as stronger in a comic. It's consistent with their records too. Batman is seen as a rival to Cap, not daredevil.

No, they are not. Bruce is clearly superior in nearly every area sane senses and reflexes.

It's not even a contest TBH. Batman can consistently fight Deathstroke as a near peer.

Daredevil gets smoked by Cap.

Hey man, if you like Batman better, that's great.

Originally posted by riv6672
That comment about Bruce using his brilliant mind and surroundings...is he going to throw the referee at Matt or something?
I think this fight favors Matt, who normally fights with minimal gear, as oppised to the usually well heeled Bruce.

Which is one of the reasons I proposed the fight conditions.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bruce fights with gear because the threats he fights usually eclipse the threats Matt fights, if you put Daredevil against characters that Batman has fought that required gear, Daredevil would get his ass kicked

If you put Batman with no gear up against characters that Daredevil has beaten with martial arts and billy clubs, Batman would beat the tar out of them

Different levels of threats, Bruce is an entire tier above Matty in pure martial arts.

Originally posted by Stoic
When you read something, it is very important that you read it critically, or you come out saying things like you just did, and even adding a smiley face to the detriment of your credibility. Giving Batman the win isn't enough for you, you have to drag him down to Jimmy Olsen, or Rick Jone's level. When you gave him a 20% possible chance of winning here is exactly what you did. This shows that your judgement skills need work.

It's not just him, it's several DC zealots all acting like complete entitled asses. They need to be out on the street corners selling DC comics for 50 cents a pop.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's non canon but it still gives us an idea to who the writer's would take as stronger in a comic. It's consistent with their records too. Batman is seen as a rival to Cap, not daredevil.

No, they are not. Bruce is clearly superior in nearly every area sane senses and reflexes.

It's not even a contest TBH. Batman can consistently fight Deathstroke as a near peer.

Daredevil gets smoked by Cap.



It's non cannon, end of story.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Which is one of the reasons I proposed the fight conditions.
Makes sense. So does...

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
It's not just him, it's several DC zealots all acting like complete entitled asses. They need to be out on the street corners selling DC comics for 50 cents a pop.

Matt oneshots Bruce with his best ultron busting shot.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
It's not just him, it's several DC zealots all acting like complete entitled asses. They need to be out on the street corners selling DC comics for 50 cents a pop. First of all, when Radzoa made that comment, I corrected him.

No, Batman would not beat all of DD's opponents every time.

But yes, Batman is more skilled as a martial artist, and is much stronger.

Plus, Bruce is VERY VERY stealthy, DD will already be taking punches before he can even figure out where Bruce is.

An octagon mat is easy to be quiet on. If Bruce figures out his radar sense, he'll use that to his advantage.

Matt can't detect Bruce if he can't hear him, and there is a very good chance Bruce can, and will, move around without making any noise.

The only way this can even be a fair fight is if there's a crowd around, and lots of noise.

Otherwise, forget it.

You really don't have any idea about Daredevil or how his powers work, do you?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
First of all, when Radzoa made that comment, I corrected him.

No, Batman would not beat all of DD's opponents every time.

But yes, Batman is more skilled as a martial artist, and is much stronger.

Plus, Bruce is VERY VERY stealthy, DD will already be taking punches before he can even figure out where Bruce is.

An octagon mat is easy to be quiet on. If Bruce figures out his radar sense, he'll use that to his advantage.

Matt can't detect Bruce if he can't hear him, and there is a very good chance Bruce can, and will, move around without making any noise.

The only way this can even be a fair fight is if there's a crowd around, and lots of noise.

Otherwise, forget it.

LMAO!! So he won't hear him or emit any vibrations? You shouldn't even be talking right now, you should be doing some research to try to figure out to Daredevil actually is. Did you forget how you described him initially? Let me help you out with a quote:

Matt is kinda... just a strong dude with radar sense.

Yeah, that's all he is.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
LMAO!! So he won't hear him or emit any vibrations? You shouldn't even be talking right now, you should be doing some research to try to figure out to Daredevil actually is. Did you forget how you described him initially? Let me help you out with a quote:

Matt is kinda... just a strong dude with radar sense.

Yeah, that's all he is. Ok, I take it back.

He's not strong.

Better?

Originally posted by Jmanghan


Matt is kinda... just a strong dude with radar sense.


what in the sam **** are you talking about?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Ok, I take it back.

He's not strong.

Better? do......do you have any idea who daredevil is or any of his feats?

Not make any sound? Daredevil can hear his heartbeat and smell his breath. The guy's gone toe to toe with characters like Iron Fist, Elektra, Black Panther, etc.

Originally posted by deathslash
do......do you have any idea who daredevil is or any of his feats?

Not make any sound? Daredevil can hear his heartbeat and smell his breath. The guy's gone toe to toe with characters like Iron Fist, Elektra, Black Panther, etc. Has he beaten them in a fair fight?

I'm starting to think DD wins this.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Has he beaten them in a fair fight? He's beaten Elektra, but Elektra is nothing special and even Hercules beat her in a sword fight. Outside of that Bendis had Iron Fist and Daredevil sparring a bit and it looked like Matt had the edge but Iron Fist most likely wasn't going all out,

Plus Bendis wanks the sh*t out of Daredevil just like Grant Morrison wanks the sh*t out of Batman. Bendis had Daredevil KO Gorgon with a kick even though neither Iron Fist nor Spiderman were able to one shot him.

Same with Panther, they fought decades ago, Matt looked like he had the edge but then again Panther wasn't going all out against him

Originally posted by RadZoa
He's beaten Elektra, but Elektra is nothing special and even Hercules beat her in a sword fight. Outside of that Bendis had Iron Fist and Daredevil sparring a bit and it looked like Matt had the edge but Iron Fist most likely wasn't going all out,

Plus Bendis wanks the sh*t out of Daredevil just like Grant Morrison wanks the sh*t out of Batman. Bendis had Daredevil KO Gorgon with a kick even though neither Iron Fist nor Spiderman were able to one shot him.

Same with Panther, they fought decades ago, Matt looked like he had the edge but then again Panther wasn't going all out against him did you just say that elekta's nothing special? Hercules has centuries of fighting experience though.

They fought even before bendis and DD was still holding his own.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Matt is kinda... just a strong dude with radar sense.



You really know nothing about comics. Earlier, I thought you were simply trolling.

anyway, split.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


You really know nothing about comics. Earlier, I thought you were simply trolling.

Originally posted by deathslash
did you just say that elekta's nothing special? Hercules has centuries of fighting experience though.

They fought even before bendis and DD was still holding his own. She really is nothing special, how does Hercules having centuries of fighting experience mean much? Literally 90% of his fights he has a physical advantage over his opponents, although ironically he beat Elektra when he was depowered

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's non canon but it still gives us an idea to who the writer's would take as stronger in a comic.

Batman didn't look significantly stronger than Matt in the actual scuffle they had in a (similarly non-canon) crossover around that same time.

I think Batman is a bit stronger than DD, but Matt is competitive enough.



In a straight-line foot race, sure - not so much in a fight though. Matt's actually looked consistently very good against Cap when they have fought (including one fight in which Cap arguably concedes that DD is more skilled than he is).


Cheers.

Matt wins. His radar sense will predict all of Bruce's moves.

Originally posted by h1a8
Matt wins. His radar sense will predict all of Bruce's moves. Yeah kind of like how it always predicts everyones moves and Daredevil never loses a fight and...Oh wait...

Daredevil loses by virtue of Batman breaking every bone in his body with his massively superior striking power.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Yeah kind of like how it always predicts everyones moves and Daredevil never loses a fight and...Oh wait...

Daredevil loses by virtue of Batman breaking every bone in his body with his massively superior striking power. DDs radar sense is always on in a forum fight. But Batman can counter a missed or failed attack. So Split

Originally posted by RadZoa
Yeah kind of like how it always predicts everyones moves and Daredevil never loses a fight and...Oh wait...

Daredevil loses by virtue of Batman breaking every bone in his body with his massively superior striking power.

If he can stand up to punches from kingpin on a consistent and regular basis, I don't see batman breaking bones being that likely.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
If he can stand up to punches from kingpin on a consistent and regular basis, I don't see batman breaking bones being that likely. Bats hits A LOT harder than Kingpin does.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bats hits A LOT harder than Kingpin does. I'll hit you a lot harder than they all do.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bats hits A LOT harder than Kingpin does. Batman can break giant Trees with kicks.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'll hit you a lot harder than they all do. Please don't spank me I'll be a good boy

Originally posted by RadZoa
Bats hits A LOT harder than Kingpin does.

On average? Doubt it.

Originally posted by LGU
Batman didn't look significantly stronger than Matt in the actual scuffle they had in a (similarly non-canon) crossover around that same time.

I think Batman is a bit stronger than DD, but Matt is competitive enough.

Well, I don't think every writer will write Bruce as stronger but there is a precedence for it. And Bruce didn't look much weaker than Cap too in what, three fights?





I don't think that's quite true. Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights.

Originally posted by abhilegend




I don't think that's quite true. Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights.

Not really. Hell, their latest fight under Waid was pretty much dead even, IIRC.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Not really. Hell, their latest fight under Waid was pretty much dead even, IIRC. It was but Cap was fighting with less finesse and Daredevil was even wondering why Cap was taking a juggernaut approach.

Cap could beat Daredevil but I've never seen Cap in any of their fights hold some massive advantage over him, the fights have been fairly equal with Cap getting an edge here and there. And none of the fights ever reached a true conclusion either

Batman beat the shit out of a bear, as a child, killed a Lion, broke trees, bricks, reinforced STEEL with grapples, punches, and kicks.

Cool story, bro.

DD wrecked Ultron.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cool story, bro.

DD wrecked Ultron.

When the **** was this?

Wait, yeah.

Still, DareDevil had Gorgon, Karnak, and "Number Nine" helping him, with the latter distracting him and trying to figure out his weak points.

He didn't even do it legit, he picked up a ****ing stick and beat Ultron with it.

Yet you forget Ultron was disadvanted and near-malfunctioning, and still got some good hits on DD despite going batshit crazy.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
When the **** was this? About 25 years ago against a weak Ultron

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Wait, yeah.

Still, DareDevil had Gorgon, Karnak, and "Number Nine" helping him, with the latter distracting him and trying to figure out his weak points.

He didn't even do it legit, he picked up a ****ing stick and beat Ultron with it.

Yet you forget Ultron was disadvanted and near-malfunctioning, and still got some good hits on DD despite going batshit crazy.

And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.

Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.

Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.

Originally posted by RadZoa
About 25 years ago against a weak Ultron

Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.

You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, I don't think every writer will write Bruce as stronger but there is a precedence for it.

Like I said, I agree that Bruce has an edge. How significant it would be is another question.



Well he pretty quickly concluded that Cap was the favourite after their opening exchanges in JLAvengers, we don't know if that was based on physical stats or skill levels. But yeah, in general this is true.

Broadly speaking though it's true for most fights between pure street level guys. There aren't all that many that portray a decisive strength edge. In several of their direct fights there is no suggestion that Cap had a strength edge over Daredevil, yet we know he quite clearly does.



Which fights do you think this is true for, specifically?

Their fight from DD v1 #43 is tricky to assess overall. DD is out of his mind and Cap explicitly notes that it is hampering his skill and strategy. Cap is also holding back at the start of the fight (although stops doing so a few pages in) and DD gets a couple of free shots. Daredevil seems pretty clearly to think that Cap is stronger and faster than him. But the fight is portrayed as even throughout despite all these factors, with onlookers noting that it could go either way. The fight ends inconclusively as DD snaps out of his aggressive mind-set and leaves. It's possible to argue that Cap looks better overall here (and certainly physically more impressive), but it's far from conclusive.

DD absolutely owns Cap in DD v1 #155, catching a shield toss out of the air with his billy club, then dodging Cap's h2h attack and cleanly KO'ing him with a single judo toss. However, this is mitigated by the fact that it was dark, so Cap could not tell that he was fighting Daredevil. Had he known he was against such a skilled opponent, he might have adjusted his strategy accordingly. So again, not definitive but there's no way to say Cap looked better here.

There's the famous scene from DD v1 #233 in which Cap sprints past Daredevil and Matt explicitly concedes a speed gap. But that wasn't in any way a fight.

Cap does beat DD down in Cap #375, but there are plenty of mitigating factors. It's the equivalent to the first fight, with Cap out of his mind and out for blood and DD trying to talk him down. Shortly before Cap scores the KO, DD notes that he can't bring himself to try and hurt Cap, whilst Cap has no such problem. Furthermore, it's explicitly noted three separate times (in a five page fight) that Daredevil is off his game due to recent experiences and being out of practice, so is not in peak form. So yeah, Cap looks better here... but it's far from a straight forward case.

They next have a brief set-to in DD v1 #327, though nothing much happens. Cap throws his shield at Daredevil, who easily catches it out of the air and is ready to fight with the shield. No fight actually occurs after that though.

Then we have the fight from Cap/DD: Dead on Arrival. Again, factors to consider here - DD is out of his mind, which explicitly has "dramatically degraded" his fighting skills (Cap's words, not mine). Even so, DD comes out looking more skilled than Cap, who arguably (depending on how you read some ambiguous dialogue) conceded that DD in peak form is more skilled than he is. He certainly looks it here - at one point, they each throw their weapon at the other. DD deflects the shield away, knocking it harmlessly to the ground. Matt's billy club ricochets off a gravestone and pings Cap in the back of the head, flooring him. The fight ends when Cap administers an antidote to Matt's mental condition via injection. Clearly Cap didn't want to hurt DD, but there's no way to argue that Cap looks better in this fight all things considered.

Finally, we have the scuffle from DD v3 #1-2. Cap is the clear aggressor throughout (DD never throws a punch in anger and is trying to talk Cap down throughout). Cap even turns up prepped with anti-radar chaff. Even so, DD more than holds his own. Both disarm the other, although just before the fight ends DD disarms Cap again (so Matt ends with both shield and billy club, Cap ends empty-handed). Cap throws numerous punches at DD but can't connect with a single one - the only time he lands anything on Matt is with the billy club cable, which DD easily escapes from. The fight ends before it goes anywhere close to a conclusion, but again, I really don't see how Cap looks better than DD here.


So by my count, there is two fights in which you could make a case that Cap looks better, but both of those have a LOT of factors involved (especially the second one). Both have one clean KO of the other, again both with a LOT of factors involved. All of the other fights end in stalemates, the majority of which either portray them as dead even, with a couple arguably presenting DD as having a skill edge. There is no genuinely conclusive fight between them at all.

So I really can't see any justification for your statement that "Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights" at all. I've got scans of all of the above scenes and can post them if required.


Cheers.

Originally posted by LGU
Like I said, I agree that Bruce has an edge. How significant it would be is another question.



Well he pretty quickly concluded that Cap was the favourite after their opening exchanges in JLAvengers, we don't know if that was based on physical stats or skill levels. But yeah, in general this is true.

Broadly speaking though it's true for most fights between pure street level guys. There aren't all that many that portray a decisive strength edge. In several of their direct fights there is no suggestion that Cap had a strength edge over Daredevil, yet we know he quite clearly does.



Which fights do you think this is true for, specifically?

Their fight from DD v1 #43 is tricky to assess overall. DD is out of his mind and Cap explicitly notes that it is hampering his skill and strategy. Cap is also holding back at the start of the fight (although stops doing so a few pages in) and DD gets a couple of free shots. Daredevil seems pretty clearly to think that Cap is stronger and faster than him. But the fight is portrayed as even throughout despite all these factors, with onlookers noting that it could go either way. The fight ends inconclusively as DD snaps out of his aggressive mind-set and leaves. It's possible to argue that Cap looks better overall here (and certainly physically more impressive), but it's far from conclusive.

DD absolutely owns Cap in DD v1 #155, catching a shield toss out of the air with his billy club, then dodging Cap's h2h attack and cleanly KO'ing him with a single judo toss. However, this is mitigated by the fact that it was dark, so Cap could not tell that he was fighting Daredevil. Had he known he was against such a skilled opponent, he might have adjusted his strategy accordingly. So again, not definitive but there's no way to say Cap looked better here.

There's the famous scene from DD v1 #233 in which Cap sprints past Daredevil and Matt explicitly concedes a speed gap. But that wasn't in any way a fight.

Cap does beat DD down in Cap #375, but there are plenty of mitigating factors. It's the equivalent to the first fight, with Cap out of his mind and out for blood and DD trying to talk him down. Shortly before Cap scores the KO, DD notes that he can't bring himself to try and hurt Cap, whilst Cap has no such problem. Furthermore, it's explicitly noted three separate times (in a five page fight) that Daredevil is off his game due to recent experiences and being out of practice, so is not in peak form. So yeah, Cap looks better here... but it's far from a straight forward case.

They next have a brief set-to in DD v1 #327, though nothing much happens. Cap throws his shield at Daredevil, who easily catches it out of the air and is ready to fight with the shield. No fight actually occurs after that though.

Then we have the fight from Cap/DD: Dead on Arrival. Again, factors to consider here - DD is out of his mind, which explicitly has "dramatically degraded" his fighting skills (Cap's words, not mine). Even so, DD comes out looking more skilled than Cap, who arguably (depending on how you read some ambiguous dialogue) conceded that DD in peak form is more skilled than he is. He certainly looks it here - at one point, they each throw their weapon at the other. DD deflects the shield away, knocking it harmlessly to the ground. Matt's billy club ricochets off a gravestone and pings Cap in the back of the head, flooring him. The fight ends when Cap administers an antidote to Matt's mental condition via injection. Clearly Cap didn't want to hurt DD, but there's no way to argue that Cap looks better in this fight all things considered.

Finally, we have the scuffle from DD v3 #1-2. Cap is the clear aggressor throughout (DD never throws a punch in anger and is trying to talk Cap down throughout). Cap even turns up prepped with anti-radar chaff. Even so, DD more than holds his own. Both disarm the other, although just before the fight ends DD disarms Cap again (so Matt ends with both shield and billy club, Cap ends empty-handed). Cap throws numerous punches at DD but can't connect with a single one - the only time he lands anything on Matt is with the billy club cable, which DD easily escapes from. The fight ends before it goes anywhere close to a conclusion, but again, I really don't see how Cap looks better than DD here.


So by my count, there is two fights in which you could make a case that Cap looks better, but both of those have a LOT of factors involved (especially the second one). Both have one clean KO of the other, again both with a LOT of factors involved. All of the other fights end in stalemates, the majority of which either portray them as dead even, with a couple arguably presenting DD as having a skill edge. There is no genuinely conclusive fight between them at all.

So I really can't see any justification for your statement that "Cap is consistently shown as better than DD in their fights" at all. I've got scans of all of the above scenes and can post them if required.


Cheers.

Man I'd like you to post them just to check them out. I missed a couple of them. But if you'd prefer not to there's that as well.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.

Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.

Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.



Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.

You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self. Kind of inconsistent for any version of Ultron to get beat by a ****ing stick, and DD, no less.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And it's still more impressive than the common feats you listed.

Even Doom (without the armor, literally naked) killed a lion. And Daredevil is his h2h superior in every way.

Daredevil flipped a limo with people in it.



Adamantium Ultron nonetheless.

You want to use only new feats? Be my guest. Nubat is a castrated shadow of his former self.

Proof? Ultron has had different bodies through the years, and his body has been less durable than other times.

I could use only NuBat and he'd still win,.

Because they specifically said it was adamantium Ultron?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because they specifically said it was adamantium Ultron? Where?

Originally posted by RadZoa
Where?

In the comic.

Found it

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ddultron6.jpg

According to Daredevil he and Karnak hit Ultron in his non adamantium parts.

Context wins again

Phuck you, Stilt, for trying to mislead us.

Thanks RadZoa, for clarifying.

Yeah, I'm truly no match for this brainless sock account individual

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, I'm truly no match for this brainless sock account individual Y u so mad?

Because beating true adamantium Ultron in hth, even with assist and via exploiting his weakness, is still superior to random 'low calibre' feats Jma listed.

Daredevil's also beaten 100 Yakuza that were on Mutant Growth Hormone drug.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because beating true adamantium Ultron in hth, even with assist and via exploiting his weakness, is still superior to random 'low calibre' feats Jma listed.

Daredevil's also beaten 100 Yakuza that were on Mutant Growth Hormone drug. Not when Bats could've done the same exact thing.


DD beat him with a stick, a stick picked up off the ground.

Definitely one of Ultron's lowest showings.

Daredevil's senses and skills allow him to detect weaknesses and do major damage even while using objects like said stick or his bare hands.

Matt has knocked out Spider-Man and Gorgon. Both have incredible durability that allowed them to continue fighting despite getting hit by superhuman giants.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because beating true adamantium Ultron in hth, even with assist and via exploiting his weakness, is still superior to random 'low calibre' feats Jma listed.

Daredevil's also beaten 100 Yakuza that were on Mutant Growth Hormone drug. IIRC Daredevil was losing against those 100 Yakuza until the FBI came up and broke up the fight. Granted Matt had an injured leg and still did an admirable job but he didn't technically beat those Yakuza

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Daredevil's senses and skills allow him to detect weaknesses and do major damage even while using objects like said stick or his bare hands.

Matt has knocked out Spider-Man and Gorgon. Both have incredible durability that allowed them to continue fighting despite getting hit by superhuman giants. Matt knocking out Gorgon is pretty insane considering Danny and Spidey couldn't KO him

Thats Bendis for you though,

Originally posted by RadZoa
IIRC Daredevil was losing against those 100 Yakuza until the FBI came up and broke up the fight. Granted Matt had an injured leg and still did an admirable job but he didn't technically beat those Yakuza

Yeah, around 20 of them ended up in hospital IIRC which meant there was about 80 of them still to go. Matt was in intensive care with gunshot and stab wounds for about eight days after the fight, so I think it is safe to assume that he would have worn down before the remaining Yakuza.

It was still a really good showing, but he definitely didn't win that battle.


Cheers.

This fight can go either way, especially with a countered missed attack. So split.

Originally posted by h1a8
This fight can go either way, especially with a countered missed attack. So split.

This. Strength between these 2 are too close to even be a factor. It all depends on who makes the mistake and who capitalizes best.

Not really. Bruce is stronger and hits harder.

Yes really. Whatever more strength he may have over Matt isnt significant enough to make a difference. And we've already seen with fighters, that it isnt always the power of the hit that determines a victory.

Not really. Any strength gap between these two will determine the fight as the skills are two close.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
lol? Do you know who Bruce somehow holds his own against...

Is that with the power of BatGod packing him up?

People dick ride Batman just as bad as people on comic vine dick ride Hellsing Alucard.

It's ****ing pathetic.

Bruce can lift 1 ton :/ So yeah.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
First of all, when Radzoa made that comment, I corrected him.

No, Batman would not beat all of DD's opponents every time.

But yes, Batman is more skilled as a martial artist, and is much stronger.

Plus, Bruce is VERY VERY stealthy, DD will already be taking punches before he can even figure out where Bruce is.

An octagon mat is easy to be quiet on. If Bruce figures out his radar sense, he'll use that to his advantage.

Matt can't detect Bruce if he can't hear him, and there is a very good chance Bruce can, and will, move around without making any noise.

The only way this can even be a fair fight is if there's a crowd around, and lots of noise.

Otherwise, forget it.

Seriously, do you know anything about Daredevil at all??

How will Bruce be undetected by Matt's hearing, when Matt can hear his heartbeat?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. Any strength gap between these two will determine the fight as the skills are two close. not especially. Other things need to get factored in. For example, daredevil might utilize the environment better.Originally posted by BUSTER1
Seriously, do you know anything about Daredevil at all??

How will Bruce be undetected by Matt's hearing, when Matt can hear his heartbeat? just ignore him bro

Batman was able to sneak up on Superman, I think he'd be able to out stealth Daredevil

Batman once tried to get the jump on DD, but DD turned around and dodged him. DD once tried getting the jump on Bats. He landed on him and Bats countered and adjusted mid air... Just saying..

Originally posted by RadZoa
IIRC Daredevil was losing against those 100 Yakuza until the FBI came up and broke up the fight. Granted Matt had an injured leg and still did an admirable job but he didn't technically beat those Yakuza

Originally posted by LGU
Yeah, around 20 of them ended up in hospital IIRC which meant there was about 80 of them still to go. Matt was in intensive care with gunshot and stab wounds for about eight days after the fight, so I think it is safe to assume that he would have worn down before the remaining Yakuza.

It was still a really good showing, but he definitely didn't win that battle.


Cheers.

Damn. My bad.

Originally posted by relentless1
Batman was able to sneak up on Superman, I think he'd be able to out stealth Daredevil

He's not gonna be able to hide his freaking heartbeat. Besides DD's hearing is more focused than Superman who has almost the entire planet in his ears all day long.

He hid his heartbeat from Superman

Originally posted by JayDaDon
He's not gonna be able to hide his freaking heartbeat. Besides DD's hearing is more focused than Superman who has almost the entire planet in his ears all day long.

please, he hid his heartbeat from Superman, if youre trying to tell me that DDs senses are better than Supermans id like to have some of what youre smoking

If Superman was in an actual fight with Batman you might have a point.

Originally posted by relentless1
please, he hid his heartbeat from Superman, if youre trying to tell me that DDs senses are better than Supermans id like to have some of what youre smoking batman- sneaks up on superman one time and that now means that he can sneak up on anyone.

Daredevil- has a history of smelling his opponent's breath, hearing their heartbeat, and occasionally sensing the shifting of the wind as they move. Somehow he still can't detect batman.

It's sticky in here from all the wank.

Originally posted by deathslash
batman- sneaks up on superman one time and that now means that he can sneak up on anyone.

Daredevil- has a history of smelling his opponent's breath, hearing their heartbeat, and occasionally sensing the shifting of the wind as they move. Somehow he still can't detect batman.

He's done it SEVERAL times.

Even ninja vanished in front of MM and Supes.

Also snuck up on Spectre, Zauriel etc....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's done it SEVERAL times.

Even ninja vanished in front of MM and Supes.

Also snuck up on Spectre, Zauriel etc.... do those feats even count anymore? The OP didn't specify, so we have to assume that it's the new 52 version of batman.

o you have to assume do you, of course you would try to downgrade batmans feats

Originally posted by relentless1
o you have to assume do you, of course you would try to downgrade batmans feats it's kind of a forum rule that we use the most current versions of the characters. Blame the mods, not me.

Yeah. 'Current chars unless stated otherwise in the OP regardless of when the thread was made'.

Sweet.

Current Batman is a New God.

Batmetron needs to bully depowered Superman, it'll be fun.

Matt

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sweet.

Current Batman is a New God. it's an h2h fight without any gadgets. Batman gets out of the mobius chair and is immediately turned back into his normal self.

The chair booms back to Apokolips, stunning Matt and disorientating him with the loud noise.

Batman throws a clean right hook and KOs Matt.

Originally posted by deathslash
do those feats even count anymore? The OP didn't specify, so we have to assume that it's the new 52 version of batman.

Doesn't matter he's already ninja vanished on New 52 supes and the rest of the JL

Originally posted by SasuOna
Doesn't matter he's already ninja vanished on New 52 supes and the rest of the JL how many times?

Originally posted by deathslash
how many times?

here you go, attempting to downplay batmans feats again, who cares how many? he's done it, ergo he could do it to daredevil no problem

Originally posted by deathslash
how many times?

How many times would satisfy you? Then we can go looking for them.

Let me turn it back at you. How many times has he FAILED in sneaking up?

Why are you talking about ninja vanishing? They are in an mma octagon

Bats has vanished when people are actually looking straight at him, that's why.

Open MMA octagon only helps if your opponent has sight.

Batman can vanish not just from sight, bht from all other senses.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Doesn't matter he's already ninja vanished on New 52 supes and the rest of the JL

Batman wins. He also fought 25 hours plus straight without getting tired at all.

Sorry, it was TWENTY EIGHT hours straight.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2yoec9f.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2uz83rr.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/nbf5mu.jpg

Batman

Originally posted by relentless1
here you go, attempting to downplay batmans feats again, who cares how many? he's done it, ergo he could do it to daredevil no problem your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Does that mean that spider-man can beat any low herald because he once beat firelord? You're supposed to use logic and reason to discern whether or not a feat is PIS or if it's something that a character is actually capable of accomplishing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Batman can vanish not just from sight, bht from all other senses.

DC trying too hard to hard to make him relevant in a team of supermen (and woman).

He can mask the sound of his heartbeat? Mask the scent of his body? Mask the vibrations in air flow as he moves? All of this in a 15 x 15 enclosed space against someone whos specific ability is sensing everything? I can't roll my eyes high enough.

I don't care if Batmans done it multiple times, it can still be PIS.

Why?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why?

Account for it.

Account for the stealth so great a being who can hear a Flea fart a galaxy away was unable to 'detect' him. What's the answer? He's an extremely healthy peak human man, people can reduce the heart-rate, demonstrably, that's fine, but do reduce the actual sound of the pump? LOL, account for it, base it on something more than just, he's really really stealthy. It's PIS.

As for it being viable in the context of THIS fight, well, can't matt echo-locate anyway? Batman can't exactly phase is body intangible, he's a physical presence in an enclosed space, he is detectable by someone who a) sharing the space and knows he's there, and b) party to the same stealth techniques and training.

don't get me wrong, I think batman wins, but not through anything so convoluted as vanishing his Physical presence in the ring and KOing Matt with a well placed one shot. You can get that shit right the **** outa here. He wins, through toughness, will and skill. Nothing supernatural about it, and no PIS feats warranted.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Account for it.

Account for the stealth so great a being who can hear a Flea fart a galaxy away was unable to 'detect' him. What's the answer? He's an extremely healthy peak human man, people can reduce the heart-rate, demonstrably, that's fine, but do reduce the actual sound of the pump? LOL, account for it, base it on something more than just, he's really really stealthy. It's PIS.

As for it being viable in the context of THIS fight, well, can't matt echo-locate anyway? Batman can't exactly phase is body intangible, he's a physical presence in an enclosed space, he is detectable by someone who a) sharing the space and knows he's there, and b) party to the same stealth techniques and training.

don't get me wrong, I think batman wins, but not through anything so convoluted as vanishing his Physical presence in the ring and KOing Matt with a well placed one shot. You can get that shit right the **** outa here. He wins, through toughness, will and skill. Nothing supernatural about it, and no PIS feats warranted.

I can go even better than that.

Account for:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman, easily. Him being Batman alone is already superhuman.

As I've said before:

Imagine a celebrity famous for doing nothing except being a rich heir to a fortune, and a party animal. In effect, Paris Hilton.

Now imagine that person also has the business smarts of a Bill Gates.

So far, so good. Ashton Kutcher is like this, after all.

Now Paris Hilton, is also a master of 127 different martial arts. Something that some people take decades just to master one or two.

Ninja Paris Hilton, also holds multiple degrees in engineering, forensic sciences, applied mechanics etc etc etc. And is able to take others' work apart, not just Earth tech, but also Kryptonian/Thanagarian/Martian/Apokolipton etc tech, and understand it.

Ninja Paris, PhDx10, ALSO speaks five or six different languages, fluently, fluently enough she could easily disguise herself (another skill she's learnt, btw), and blend in anywhere in the world.

All by the age of 35.

And is also a master escape artist.

And is an Olympic level gymnast, powerlifter, and is pretty decent and sprinting AND marathons.

And can KO horses.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, I forgot - Ninja Paris Hilton, in the course of her studies around the world, training with the worst criminals and assassins the world has to offer, attending the finest universities money can buy - is able to do all of this secretly. Not one of her classmates will remember her, nor will any of the assasins/criminals attempt to blackmail her.

She will one day suddenly pop back in NYC, nobody will know where she's been (even though you could do so by just checking academic records etc), and a few months later, a shadowy vigilante will suddenly appear.

Batman is nothing but PIS. You cannot pick and choose which bits you accept, and which you don't.