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Clone Wars era, canon feats only, fight takes place in the Geonosian arena, which team wins?

Windu and Yoda imo.

Tyranus is the weak link.

Windu already beat Sidious and by extension should crush Dooku.

Yoda already shown he is Dooku's Superior, and IMO given more time would have beaten Sidious (good, good... let the hate flow through you...).

going to have to disagree here, this is the top four guys from this period of time, which is why I picked them for this fight...as even as it gets. But Dooku was shown to be able to hold his own with Yoda, Yoda is more powerful than Windu, Sidious threw his fight against Mace and stalemated Yoda so I think Windu is the weak link here, even if you don't believe that Palpatine threw the fight, they only reason given that he may have lost is because of the slippery floor once the window was shattered in the senate office, on solid ground in an arena Mace has no chance against Sidious and I think Tyranus could beat him as well seeing how well he did against Yoda.

Team 1.

Team 1 with relative ease

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Team 1 with relative ease

Originally posted by Placidity
Tyranus is the weak link.

Windu already beat Sidious and by extension should crush Dooku.

Yoda already shown he is Dooku's Superior, and IMO given more time would have beaten Sidious (good, good... let the hate flow through you...).

Really this is not an easy win. This will be a hard fight. Mace beating Sidious is show of what a mix of Vaapad and the environment can give you. However this is an open arena. Now with that said I shall analyze.

Dooku vs Windu... A hard battle to judge. I would say that after a hard fought battle I woudl say Dooku. In my view his command or at least knowledge of the force is greater than Windu's. As duelist I would have to go with Dooku with a 6/10 win. He's more experienced than Windu and demonstrates better force powers than Windu. Dooku was able to contend with Yoda witthout the need of a special style. So I personally Dooku winning their battle however very close.

Sidious vs Yoda. Ok being on neutral ground I don't see much of a difference. It's going to come down to there force powers everytime and they are perfect stalemates as neither was able to overpower the other. Really it's to close to call I woudl say Sidious takes it 6/10 if I had to say a winner.

Sith team win.

Well... this wouldn't be the first time you were wrong about star wars vs matches

Whats up Mr. Ed?

Team 1

Team 1 wins, but there will be nothing easy about it.

The only way it may seem easy is if Yoda engages Dooku while Mace engages Sidious. Windu should last long enough against Sidious for Yoda to beat Dooku and help Mace double team Sidious.

But even in that scenario, there's the risk of Dooku lasting out longer than expected and Windu losing to Sidious. And yes KT, Windu would lose a majority to Sidious. He's simply outmatched in Force Powers, especially in an Open Environment like this one.

It also hinders the sith tbh, the open arena, what in the environment can they actually use to their advantage? It's not like in the senate where Palpatine could use the pods to his advantage. But then again I'm not that familiar with the layout of the arena.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Whats up Mr. Ed?

How's it going Yogi

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Team 1 wins, but there will be nothing easy about it.

The only way it may seem easy is if Yoda engages Dooku while Mace engages Sidious. Windu should last long enough against Sidious for Yoda to beat Dooku and help Mace double team Sidious.

But even in that scenario, there's the risk of Dooku lasting out longer than expected and Windu losing to Sidious. And yes KT, Windu would lose a majority to Sidious. He's simply outmatched in Force Powers, especially in an Open Environment like this one.

Ultimately you have the right team winning. I envisioned it being relatively easy with Yoda engaging Dooku and beating him before Sids beats Mace.

Also, I'll leave alone your summary of Sids vs. Mace, suffice to say, canon is on my side.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ultimately you have the right team winning. I envisioned it being relatively easy with Yoda engaging Dooku and beating him before Sids beats Mace.


Fair enough.

Just think you're underestimating how long Dooku can last if he fights defensively in Sabers. But then I suppose Yoda could just start attacking him with TK.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, I'll leave alone your summary of Sids vs. Mace, suffice to say, canon is on my side.


There's a lot more to Canon than just that 1 fight where Mace happened to come out on top.


Originally posted by Utrigita
It also hinders the sith tbh, the open arena, what in the environment can they actually use to their advantage? It's not like in the senate where Palpatine could use the pods to his advantage. But then again I'm not that familiar with the layout of the arena.


Dooku could use a lot of room to give ground if he ends up being on the defensive (which he probably will against either opponent).

And Palpatine's not going to lose his Saber through a window. Plus in an open environment, it's easy for him to keep his distance and turn this into more of a Force fight.

Remember Sidous never actually hit Yoda with a Senate Pod. He beat him by keeping his distance and turning it into a Force fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well... this wouldn't be the first time you were wrong about star wars vs matches

Wouldn't be the first time you automatically take your answer to be the right one considering this is more of an opinion battle. It's way to close to call as both Yoda and Sidious are extremely close, and Dooku and Windu extremely close. So really there is no right team winning unless canonically stated that one of these opponents woudl beat the other. So it's all your opinion not law.

Jedi win.

Windu > Dooku
Yoda = Sidious

Originally posted by Placidity
and IMO given more time would have beaten Sidious

Nah. Sidious won that fight, though I'd say that the two are dead equals.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's a lot more to Canon than just that 1 fight where Mace happened to come out on top.

This battle seems more of a complete stalemate to me. I don't see how either team would win. Sidious and Yoda are compete equals same with Dooku and Windu. The Sidious vs Windu battle Mace did happen to have Vaapad to a certain degree of power that he wouldn't have in this match( unless mace still has all the inner darkness he had right as he fought Sidious which I find unlikely for this matchup). Dooku was able to go toe to toe with Yoda without that, someone to be on Sidious level. The only way I see anyone winning is if someone wins the Windu vs Dooku battle helps out their master, and that I see the victor being Dooku.

Yoda vs Sidious. Really the lightsaber duel, even if it goes to Yoda, the force battle wouldn't as neither was actually able to gain the complete upper hand in that battle.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku could use a lot of room to give ground if he ends up being on the defensive (which he probably will against either opponent).

And Palpatine's not going to lose his Saber through a window. Plus in an open environment, it's easy for him to keep his distance and turn this into more of a Force fight.

Remember Sidous never actually hit Yoda with a Senate Pod. He beat him by keeping his distance and turning it into a Force fight.

Keeping his distance here won't help, atleast as I see it, because the pods (which was instrumental) in keeping distance to Yoda isn't here. Lets recall shall we that the Scrips have Sidious being disarmed by Yoda, which leads to Sidious retreating to the pods in the first place. What I question is what can Sidious (or Dooku for that matter) use to keep their opponent at bay if they get overwhelmed, Lightning? Both Yoda (can deflect with hands) and Mace (with his saber) have shown that they can handle it. Hence I think this will always be decided by each teams skill with a lightsaber, and the arena in which they fight as I see won't have a significant impact.

But we agree on the Jedi's winning so

Originally posted by Utrigita
Keeping his distance here won't help, atleast as I see it, because the pods (which was instrumental) in keeping distance to Yoda isn't here. Lets recall shall we that the Scrips have Sidious being disarmed by Yoda, which leads to Sidious retreating to the pods in the first place.


No the script actually has Yoda retreating after Yoda disarms Sidious, presumably because he was getting overwhelmed by Sidious's force powers.



Originally posted by Utrigita
What I question is what can Sidious (or Dooku for that matter) use to keep their opponent at bay if they get overwhelmed, Lightning? Both Yoda (can deflect with hands) and Mace (with his saber) have shown that they can handle it. Hence I think this will always be decided by each teams skill with a lightsaber, and the arena in which they fight as I see won't have a significant impact.




Mace showed he can "handle" Sidious's FL while screaming, and clearly struggling for his life.

And that was with Sidious from a position lying on his ass right under Mace's blade. And even then he was Faking being weak as per Lucas.

That will be very different here. Mace also won't have 3 Masters to start the fight with. As insignificant as those Masters may have seemed, they did Force Sidious into a tight quarters confrontation with Mace.

Sidious isn't as confined here.

Dooku will be on the defensive against either of these strongmen, and would benefit from all the space.



Originally posted by Utrigita
But we agree on the Jedi's winning so


Yes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No the script actually has Yoda retreating after Yoda disarms Sidious, presumably because he was getting overwhelmed by Sidious's force powers.



In that incident after the initial disarm it most certainly doesn't look like Yoda is being overwhelmed by Sidious, but w/e that is just my take on it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace showed he can "handle" Sidious's FL while screaming, and clearly struggling for his life.

And that was with Sidious from a position lying on his ass right under Mace's blade. And even then he was Faking being weak as per Lucas.

That will be very different here. Mace also won't have 3 Masters to start the fight with. As insignificant as those Masters may have seemed, they did Force Sidious into a tight quarters confrontation with Mace.

Sidious isn't as confined here.

Dooku will be on the defensive against either of these strongmen, and would benefit from all the sapce.

I would raise the point that Sidious was struggling damaging Windu as well, unless he actually hoped that the lightning would get deflected back to his face.

And I'll admit that I haven't seen the statement from Lucas concerning Palpatine, I just, when in doubt, go by the script.

But again in agreement.

Originally posted by Utrigita
In that incident after the initial disarm it most certainly doesn't look like Yoda is being overwhelmed by Sidious, but w/e that is just my take on it.


If you carried on reading:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.


^ It's Yoda who retreated to another Senate Pod.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I would raise the point that Sidious was struggling damaging Windu as well,


Of course he was. But as I said he was in a pretty disadvantageous position. Right under Mace's balde stuck in a tight environment, with his Saber flown out through a window.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If you carried on reading:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod.


^ It's Yoda who retreated to another Senate Pod.




Of course he was. But as I said he was in a pretty disadvantageous position. Right under Mace's balde stuck in a tight environment, with his Saber flown out through a window.

Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me

@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.


Not that I disagree. But is there a particular reason you think that when according to you "Styles make fights."

You believe that even though Mace is Less Powerful than Sidious, and probably couldn't beat Yoda, that he can take Sidious because "Styles make fights" right?

So what makes you so sure that Dooku's style wouldn't make him Mace's equal when facing Mace? I mean Dooku's clearly more Powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Darth Maul. So do you not find it plausible for someone as Powerful as him to match (or God forbid even beat) Mace if their Saber styles were to clash right?


Not starting a full out debate or anything, but Just curious as to your logic is all.

No worries DP bro, I like you.

The reason for my position is as follows:

1. Mace already beat somebody that is Dooku clear superior. I could elaborate more on this topic, but you already know the same stuff I do. In the end, Mace beating Sids (even if we say it wouldn't be for a majority like you enjoy saying) Mace beating him sometimes is more than Dooku could do IMO

2. I know you hate the reference to Dooku's style being weak to powerful strikes and it slowly fatigues him. I know you don't like it, and I even kind of think it's lame, but it exists none the less. Suffice to say, Mace delivers powerful strikes, that going by the above, would gradually be wearing out Dooku

3. To build on the above, Mace on the other hand would be gaining stamina "leaching" off of Dooku darkside energy. It's unclear how much of an amp he would get, but suffice to stay, it would be an amp. That amp should squarely put Mace above Dooku. Even in the text you like to point out about Dooku beating Mace in sparring... it notes how close they are in sabers. So if they are already nigh equals... any amp Mace gets... Will tip the fight in his favor virtually all the time.

Even if we say that he's not weak to powerful Kinetic strikes... He would still get fatigued before Mace would... Not only because of Vaapad but simply because Dooku generally seems to tire faster. In the end, I'd agree they are pretty close in power and sabers. IMO though, Mace holds an edge that is measureable. It's not a big gap, but a gap does exists there imo.

^ Fair enough. And I can even agree with most of that.

I don't think Dooku is "weak" to powerful attacks. But I think he gets put on the defensive against Strong foes (providing they're skilled as well), so do agree Dooku would be on the defensive against Mace.

And though he could probably last a good amount of time on the defensive, it would probably just be a matter of time before Windu breaks through those defences with his incredible strength and stamina.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
@ Emperor Sidious.... Only Dooku wouldn't beat Mace... Sorry bud, that is where your position takes a wrong turn. You wrongly believe he's Mace's superior, and he's not.

I'm perfectly fine with either one. To me it's extremely close and hard to determine a winner however I do have one question. How do you know 100% without a doubt that Dooku isn't his superior or would win against Windu. What gives you such a solid...say fact I suppose that Windu woudl beat Dooku. So again I don't see how I am wrong about that as that is my opinion and not just mine but many others as well as a well backed one as both as per the movies have done things of equal or near equal measure, however Mace required special skills to go toe to toe with Sidious while Dooku just had his blade and force powers to challenge Yoda and he didn't ask for help. In fact with an amp possibly not as strong as maces Vaapad on Vjun he was able to contend with Yoda. So really there is a lot of strong evidence that Dooku is in fact his superior however it's speculation on both sides as niether has been canonically said to be above the other. In fact Dooku did beat Mace, however long ago, however before his prime. Windu did increase yes however so to did Dooku. He was known as the academy's most learned student, most powerful in the force most skilled with the blade in I believe it's entire history, and is stated to be the only other one beside Yoda and Sidiois to be able to contend with Mace on even footing. So again I ask how am I wrong to say that Dooki woudl win against mace for a majority. Please explain to me, how this opinion is wrong thus confirming my original thoughts about you.

Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.



I dunno KT.

The bulk of your argument seems to be based on Mace beating Sidious. Even though you're the one who always argues that it's style that makes fights. That A>B>C>A is a common and normal thing. Which is true, but it's also true that environments play an important part in fights (both in SW and in Real life). Because different environments play to peoples strengths and weaknesses. In fact SW Canon specifically makes note of the effect the environment has when it comes to it's Lightsaber Styles. And that's just the effect on Saber styles, when you start talking Force Powers, the effect of the environment is even larger.

So considering that, all you can really do is look at a wide range of fights and evidences and form a ranking system. And I'm sure the vast majority of people would rank Mace below both Yoda and Sidious overall. Do you agree with that? Because if you do (and almost everyone does) that Yoda and Sidious are the 2 top dogs, then you rank No. 3 between Mace, Dooku and Anakin in the ROTS time period, or just between Dooku and Mace if it's the AOTC time period.

Again most people probably would rank Mace as no.3 based on the fact that he can compete with Sidious as per Lucas. But that of course doesn't mean there's no one else who could beat Mace. Because Lucas never said you need to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.

And end of the day if the no.3 guy(Mace) can beat the no.1 or no.2 guy(Yoda/Sidious), then what's stopping the no.4 or no.5 guys (Dooku/Anakin) from beating or stalemating the no.3 guy? In fact with a favourable environment, and the right clash of fighting styles, that's bound to happen is it not KT?

Heck Anakin's definitely in the Top 5 but he's already been beaten by someone definitely not in the top 5 (Kenobi). Of course Kenobi taught him, but you get the point right? There's always the danger of getting beaten by the guys ranked just below you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just read my post to DP and then you can respond. I would essentially say the same thing. I don't see why you would reference when Dooku was on a Dark Side Nexus.. with Yoda hurt.. and STILL Yoda came off as the superior combatant. You like to talk about how Sids is above Yoda. Well, Mace beat that same person, that beat yoda, who in turn was able to look superior to Dooku while he was amped. See how that works?

The reality is this, Mace would receive an amp when fighting Dooku, said amp would put him squarely above Dooku imo. It's not like this is all conjecture on Mace's abilities and I'm just postulating what he could do. He convincingly beat somebody that is also above Dooku. It comes down to this, you can believe whatever you want, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, what I'm saying is, the evidence more points to Mace being his superior. You can go against what's likely all you want, I choose not to.

I actually don't say Sidious is above Yoda. I have actually explicitly said that I beleive these two are equal, and only if forced to choose a winne woudl I choose Sidious with a 6/10 win. You do understand that Mace had an amp he would never get against any opponent ever again in that fight correct? So him "beating" him which is debatable (however we both know where the other stands on the subject) doesn't show any superiority or at least a solid superiority over Dooku, especially seeing as how at least when Dooku fought Yoda without an Amp, at least he wasn't aloud to live like Windu was. So whether that's just Dookus surgical style or his superiority is up for debate. Really no time has Vaapad ever conclusively beaten an opponent. Mace needed it to just contend with Sidious, and then needed Shatterpoint and the environment to help him through the rest. So all of that being on neutral setting, he wouldn't be nearly as fast, Shatterpoint wouldn't be nearly as powerful, and not nearly as strong, with no where near a good enough amp to take down Dooku. May I remind you that Dooku did fight a Vaapad master Sora Bulq before his turn in which Windu did say that his level of mastery was slightly below his own. SLIGHTLY. So really if Sora couldnt do it, I don't see Mace being able to do it to a much higher level. So while Vaaapd is good for Mace, it's not going to grant him the necessary power to be a game finisher. So really like Thor has said your argument is based off of the Windu vs Sidious fight where Windu received huge advantages not being granted here. Location is different and opponent is different, and his strength, speed stamina, not the same. So I agree this is a really close match up. However I beleive Dooku wins by the thinnest of threads.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
May I remind you that Dooku did fight a Vaapad master Sora Bulq before


To be fair EmperorSidious2 that shouldn't be brought up in this forum, as that's the Old EU. And not Canon to the movies. Same with Yoda beating Dooku on Vjun.

Since this is the Movie Vs forum, so only Movie Canon should be brought up (which included TCW and Lucas's statements pre-Disney, but now includes anything new Disney puts out without the Legends Banner on it).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dunno KT.

The bulk of your argument seems to be based on Mace beating Sidious. Even though you're the one who always argues that it's style that makes fights. That A>B>C>A is a common and normal thing. Which is true, but it's also true that environments play an important part in fights (both in SW and in Real life). Because different environments play to peoples strengths and weaknesses. In fact SW Canon specifically makes note of the effect the environment has when it comes to it's Lightsaber Styles. And that's just the effect on Saber styles, when you start talking Force Powers, the effect of the environment is even larger.

So considering that, all you can really do is look at a wide range of fights and evidences and form a ranking system. And I'm sure the vast majority of people would rank Mace below both Yoda and Sidious overall. Do you agree with that? Because if you do (and almost everyone does) that Yoda and Sidious are the 2 top dogs, then you rank No. 3 between Mace, Dooku and Anakin in the ROTS time period, or just between Dooku and Mace if it's the AOTC time period.

Again most people probably would rank Mace as no.3 based on the fact that he can compete with Sidious as per Lucas. But that of course doesn't mean there's no one else who could beat Mace. Because Lucas never said you need to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.

And end of the day if the no.3 guy(Mace) can beat the no.1 or no.2 guy(Yoda/Sidious), then what's stopping the no.4 or no.5 guys (Dooku/Anakin) from beating or stalemating the no.3 guy? In fact with a favourable environment, and the right clash of fighting styles, that's bound to happen is it not KT?

Heck Anakin's definitely in the Top 5 but he's already been beaten by someone definitely not in the top 5 (Kenobi). Of course Kenobi taught him, but you get the point right? There's always the danger of getting beaten by the guys ranked just below you.

I don't have a lot of issues with some of the stuff you say, but I believe that stuff, leads us Mace being greater than Dooku. You're right, a big part of why I have Mace above Dooku, is for his ability against Darksiders. This is exemplified by his fight with Sidious. So of course I would use that fight to illustrate what Mace can do against inferior Darksiders. Styles do make fights, and that makes this fight even more conclusive to me.

Dooku would have no choice but to fight on the defensive against Mace, just like he would Sidious. I don't think Dooku is best when he's fighting that way. Mace forcing him to fight that way, is a styles make fights issue, and one that, imo favors Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're right, a big part of why I have Mace above Dooku, is for his ability against Darksiders. This is exemplified by his fight with Sidious. So of course I would use that fight to illustrate what Mace can do against inferior Darksiders.



Think we need more examples of that in action tbh. Not sure how well it'd work on a Darksider whose already equally as Powerful as Mace and fighting defensively. I mean I'd expect if Mace got an Amp from any Darksider regardless of their Power and Style then he'd stomp Darth Maul immediately. But he didn't. It was only a very short fight, but if that's how Vapaad works I'd expect better than Maul defending against Mace while booting another Jedi in the face. (That's right Mace had help from another Jedi).



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Styles do make fights, and that makes this fight even more conclusive to me.


Styles making fights, The whole A>B>C>A thing Sidious>>Dooku=Mace>/=Sidious could work here.

Because if Dooku fights defensively against Mace (someone whose not more Powerful than him in Force Powers as far as I can tell), then it would be a very long drawn out battle. Because Dooku uses precision and footwork to deflect, evade and give ground against Stronger opponents. And Dooku can simultaneously use his free hand to use Tk to help him keep Mace at bay.

Whilst if Dooku fights defensively against Sidious, that would be suicide, because it wouldn't take long for Sidious to Stomp Dooku with TK. You HAVE to be on the Offensive against Sidious and all over him (like Mace would try to be). Not to mention any Tk attacks with Dooku's free hand would pretty much be laughed off by Sidious.

So styles making fights definitely gives Dooku a much better chance against Mace than he would have against Sidious. In fact he'd have Zero hope against Sidious. He'd have a very small chance of defeating Mace, but quite a good chance of drawing out a fight with Mace to a possible stalemate IMO. If not a Stalemate, then Mace winning after a very long and hard fight.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't think Dooku is best when he's fighting that way. Mace forcing him to fight that way, is a styles make fights issue, and one that, imo favors Mace.



Not sure why you think that. Dooku fought that way against Anakin and Obi-Wan combined in TCW Season 6, deflecting their attacks with 1 hand, and using his free hand for openings for physical/TK attacks.

He basically stalemated them toegther both like that.

I've seen him fight best like that tbh. And the defensive element is a big part of his style, being too elegant to be laying on a Powerful Offensive all the time.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Think we need more examples of that in action tbh. Not sure how well it'd work on a Darksider whose already equally as Powerful as Mace and fighting defensively. I mean I'd expect if Mace got an Amp from any Darksider regardless of their Power and Style then he'd stomp Darth Maul immediately. But he didn't. It was only a very short fight, but if that's how Vapaad works I'd expect better than Maul defending against Mace while booting another Jedi in the face. (That's right Mace had help from another Jedi).






Styles making fights, The whole A>B>C>A thing Sidious>>Dooku=Mace>/=Sidious could work here.

Because if Dooku fights defensively against Mace (someone whose not more Powerful than him in Force Powers as far as I can tell), then it would be a very long drawn out battle. Because Dooku uses precision and footwork to deflect, evade and give ground against Stronger opponents. And Dooku can simultaneously use his free hand to use Tk to help him keep Mace at bay.

Whilst if Dooku fights defensively against Sidious, that would be suicide, because it wouldn't take long for Sidious to Stomp Dooku with TK. You HAVE to be on the Offensive against Sidious and all over him (like Mace would try to be). Not to mention any Tk attacks with Dooku's free hand would pretty much be laughed off by Sidious.

So styles making fights definitely gives Dooku a much better chance against Mace than he would have against Sidious. In fact he'd have Zero hope against Sidious. He'd have a very small chance of defeating Mace, but quite a good chance of drawing out a fight with Mace to a possible stalemate IMO. If not a Stalemate, then Mace winning after a very long and hard fight.






Not sure why you think that. Dooku fought that way against Anakin and Obi-Wan combined in TCW Season 6, deflecting their attacks with 1 hand, and using his free hand for openings for physical/TK attacks.

He basically stalemated them toegther both like that.

I've seen him fight best like that tbh. And the defensive element is a big part of his style, being too elegant to be laying on a Powerful Offensive all the time.

See, I don't agree with Dooku fighting fine that way for long. Sure, he's expert enough that he can do so, but so can Kenobi... that doesn't make him able to beat Mace fighting that way. Again, we just can't get around the fact that on multi occasions Dooku has looked winded and out of breath and been referenced as such. With Mace constantly leaching energy from him... It's very very easy to see how Dooku wouldn't be able to last long on the defensive. If Mace didn't deliver powerful strikes, sure, but he does.

Your reference to the 2 vs. 1 against Dooku seems a little suspect considering, again, he was tiring and was stated to be. It was made clear he wouldn't have been able to last like that, and he had to separate them in order to gain his advantage. So I just don't see that as a good example to use.

Just to illustrate how fast Mace can get and how an amp can help him... Somebody with Anakin awesome perception and speed himself.. couldn't even perceive Mace he was fighting Sidious so fast. We're talking about a person who one v one beat dooku and had no issue seeing his strikes. That same person couldn't even perceive Mace. That speaks volumes about how Mace can be "leagues" above Dooku in that mode.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
See, I don't agree with Dooku fighting fine that way for long. Sure, he's expert enough that he can do so, but so can Kenobi... that doesn't make him able to beat Mace fighting that way.


Dooku is a faster, more powerful and more skilled combatant than Kenobi. Of course Windu would eventually break through Kenobi's defenses, although it might take a while in a pure saber match up, but in an all out Windu's going to end up Tk smashing Kenobi much sooner.

Plus like I said Dooku while fighting (especially while on the defense), keeps a hand free for simultaneous TK attacks. That will only further aid in fending off Mace for a long drawn out match.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, we just can't get around the fact that on multi occasions Dooku has looked winded and out of breath and been referenced as such.


Against who? He was only "referenced" as such when fighting off Kenobi and Skywalker together in ROTS. May I remind you than Anakin alone by this time had been stated to be a duelist on a similar tier with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by the stunt coordinator?



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
With Mace constantly leaching energy from him... It's very very easy to see how Dooku wouldn't be able to last long on the defensive.


Again not entirely convinced on how Vapaad would work. Did he keep leaching energy from Sidious until Sidious went down? No. He was said to deflect the dark power that was being aimed at Mace back onto Sidious.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your reference to the 2 vs. 1 against Dooku seems a little suspect considering, again, he was tiring and was stated to be. It was made clear he wouldn't have been able to last like that, and he had to separate them in order to gain his advantage. So I just don't see that as a good example to use.


Not talking about the Revenge of the Sith fight. Anakin was too powerful on his own by then.

Talking about this fight:

?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ


^ As you can see, Dooku is clearly the fastest and most skilled combatant there.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just to illustrate how fast Mace can get and how an amp can help him... Somebody with Anakin awesome perception and speed himself.. couldn't even perceive Mace he was fighting Sidious so fast. We're talking about a person who one v one beat dooku and had no issue seeing his strikes. That same person couldn't even perceive Mace. That speaks volumes about how Mace can be "leagues" above Dooku in that mode.


Not canon because Anakin never saw Mace and Sidious fight in the film.

Not to mention that kind of speed disparity would make no sense at all seen as Dooku has already fought off Sidious's equal- Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku is a faster, more powerful and more skilled combatant than Kenobi. Of course Windu would eventually break through Kenobi's defenses, although it might take a while in a pure saber match up, but in an all out Windu's going to end up Tk smashing Kenobi much sooner.

Plus like I said Dooku while fighting (especially while on the defense), keeps a hand free for simultaneous TK attacks. That will only further aid in fending off Mace for a long drawn out match.






Against who? He was only "referenced" as such when fighting off Kenobi and Skywalker together in ROTS. May I remind you than Anakin alone by this time had been stated to be a duelist on a similar tier with Yoda, Sidious and Mace by the stunt coordinator?






Again not entirely convinced on how Vapaad would work. Did he keep leaching energy from Sidious until Sidious went down? No. He was said to deflect the dark power that was being aimed at Mace back onto Sidious.






Not talking about the Revenge of the Sith fight. Anakin was too powerful on his own by then.

Talking about this fight:

?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ


^ As you can see, Dooku is clearly the fastest and most skilled combatant there.






Not canon because Anakin never saw Mace and Sidious fight in the film.

Not to mention that kind of speed disparity would make no sense at all seen as Dooku has already fought off Sidious's equal- Yoda.

The point is buddy, nobody said he can't last "long" and would be beaten quickly. What I am saying is, he wouldn't last longer than Yoda or Sidiious in their fight. It doesn't matter "how" long he last, it will be shorter than the winner of Sidious vs. Yoda

He was referenced to be tired in the ROTS as you are well aware. He was also VISIBLY catching his breath after dispatching of Anakin in the AOTC movie fight. Even in his fight vs. Yoda on vjun... He was referenced as tiring if I'm not mistaken. Point is, his stamina clearly isn't on par with Windu normally... let alone if Mace is replenishing his energy with Vaapad... Would you not agree?

It honestly doesn't matter how much of an amp Mace would get. When you're talking about two people very close in skills and power... any slight amp could imo make all the difference in the world

That is a poor fight to use considering Mace is above either of Kenobi's or Anakin's clone wars versions. He would replicate the feat just the same. Dooku holding is own against those two is < than him having to beat Mace.

Lastly my friend... You and I both know it's canon. Do you honestly think Disney buying the franchise changes that? I don't. They can say whatever they want about what is or what isn't canon, in the end they can't tell me how to use logic and my brain. They had absolutely nothing to do with the Franchise when the movie was made and the book written. Lucas had all the authority for both and decided it was canon. HIs view on those older material is 100% more of an authority to Disney. Going forward, sure Disney can say how things go and they will make movies as such. They will be the authority. But don't tell me somebody that had nothing to do with canon back then... is somehow more important than Lucas. Anyways, the point still stands, he couldn't perceive Mace he was fighting so fast. That is above anything Dooku could match if Mace got that kind of amp. He probably wouldn't off of Dooku.. but he would get some, and that some should be enough

Really the part about what's canon and what isn't for how fast Sidious can move, IMO, is that Sidious can move that fast, but Anakin wasn't there to see it, so there was no eye witness to that speed. However Windu could only move that fast under specific circumstances. His inner darkness was at an all time high due to the republic he loved, basically betrayed him, and he was going up against Sidious, someone with an immense hatred of the Jedi. He wouldn't have nearly the same of either and it's not like Dooku lets off an extreme amount of Dark energy, so not really just enough to tip the scales in his favor.

I would agree that the amp from Dooku would likely not be as strong as the one he got from Sids... That I would agree with. I would also agree that he wouldn't be AS motivated, and essentially as pissed off, as he was with Sids. My view is, that they are close already.. peers even... ANY amp Mace would get, even slight, would tip the scales in his favor more times than not. There is simply no logical conclusion that can be drawn other than that imo. Imo it's a logical one and fair one

This just came to me. What if Vaaapd is what brings Windu to Dooku's level? Before Vaapad Dooku was able to defeat Mace. Mace's Vaapad only allowed him to stalemate Sidious and he won't be getting anywhere close to that amp. Dooku is a clam individual, which is reflected by his style. Surgical and precise, not just all sporadic like Sidious. To put it to more professional terms, Dooku's Makashi isn't the best form to use Vaapad agaisnt. Notice Sidious uses more aggressive forms such as Ataru and Juyo, one of those being very close to the dark side. Dooku's is more controlled, and surgical and calm. Much like his personality. Notice he doesn't yell at his enforcers, at least much. This all translates to Vaapad. He wouldn't receive a big enough amp to make Vaapad effective enough. Since you brought up Vjun and the novel, I will say this. Vaapad as never worked for mace ever really. All it has done is give him stalemates, even against people like deepa and bulq. He stalemated Sidious, however if he were to fight him without his own internal anger, he would have lost.

the whole Vappad/ Mace boost argument falls flat for several reasons.

1. nowhere in the established new canon is there any mention of "combat forms" (if there is please feel free to correct me with proof)

2. the new canon is based off the movies and tv shows, also companion novels unless they contradict the movies or tv shows.

3. the only reason Mace was made to look good is because Sam Jackson negotiated to not let Mace go out "like a punk" if it wasn't for him he'd have been killed off same as the other three jedi that wandered into the chancellors office that day.

bottom line is I never bought that whole Vaapad makes him stronger thing and when he "beat" Sidious that was a calculated move by Palpatine to turn Anakin...

think about how events went down :

-Palpatine reveals his Sith side to Anakin, KNOWING he'd go and tell the Jedi about him, otherwise why put yourself into the position of being unarmed against Anakin, one of the greatest swordsman at that time?

-Windu shows up with three other masters, one of which had some extensive moments in the Clone Wars cartoon (Fisto) making him seem like a pretty powerful Master; Sidious cuts the three of them down in seconds. The fact that it looked like they were just standing there waiting for Sidious to kill them only speaks to the cinematographers (failed) attempt to show off the Emperors vastly superior speed.

-Windu kicks Plapatines lightsaber out of his hand ONE SECOND before Anakin walks in...thats also some huge coincidence???? Anakins appraisal of the scene is Palpatine on the ground at the tip of Maces saber and at his mercy, right where Sidious wanted the scene to be so Anakin would be forced into a quick decision.

-After playing possum, once Anakin chooses and cuts off Maces arm, Sidious leaps back to life and kills Windu with lightning/tossing him thru the window so right there he's blatantly playing the feeble old man in order to gain Anakins sympathy.

and to those that say Im a Sidious fanboy, Yoda would win in a saber duel between them which is why Palpatine lost his saber when fighting in the senate chambers. But I do believe Sidious has the edge on Yoda when it comes to Force powers.

You keep saying over and over that Mace only stalemated sidious, which again, is being disingenuous. I won't rehash the same argument over and over because there is no need. The vast, and I mean vast, majority of evidence clearly and without question supports Mace beat Sidious. So this whole notion that he was only able to stalemate Sids is a flat out lie. He did far more, and better than simply stalemating him.

Second, Vjun is a terrible example to use. Dooku (while amped) lost against an injured Yoda. That only hurts your case more, it doesn't help it.

Next this whole "theory" that the amp brings him to Dooku level is simply ludicrous. Let me explain this one more time so it's crystal clear, Dooku never EVER beat Mace in a real fight. The ONLY reference to him besting him was in sparring. As we know, in real life or fantasy land, sparring counts for very little. To say nothing of the fact, that it only says he bested in him sparring at some point... which is to say... that doesn't mean Mace did win more sparring sessions. It didn't allude to it one way or another. If mace beat Dooku 25 times in sparring... and Dooku one once.. I could still stay Dooku and Yoda were the only ones to best Mace in sparring. Yet, he lost many more times than won. So even that one line doesn't mean much and there is no context to the situation. Nevermind that Mace hadn't even learned Vaapad at that point. It essence that line is utterly meaningless besides it showing that they are very close in sabers.

Originally posted by relentless1
the whole Vappad/ Mace boost argument falls flat for several reasons.

1. nowhere in the established new canon is there any mention of "combat forms" (if there is please feel free to correct me with proof)

2. the new canon is based off the movies and tv shows, also companion novels unless they contradict the movies or tv shows.

3. the only reason Mace was made to look good is because Sam Jackson negotiated to not let Mace go out "like a punk" if it wasn't for him he'd have been killed off same as the other three jedi that wandered into the chancellors office that day.

bottom line is I never bought that whole Vaapad makes him stronger thing and when he "beat" Sidious that was a calculated move by Palpatine to turn Anakin...

think about how events went down :

-Palpatine reveals his Sith side to Anakin, KNOWING he'd go and tell the Jedi about him, otherwise why put yourself into the position of being unarmed against Anakin, one of the greatest swordsman at that time?

-Windu shows up with three other masters, one of which had some extensive moments in the Clone Wars cartoon (Fisto) making him seem like a pretty powerful Master; Sidious cuts the three of them down in seconds. The fact that it looked like they were just standing there waiting for Sidious to kill them only speaks to the cinematographers (failed) attempt to show off the Emperors vastly superior speed.

-Windu kicks Plapatines lightsaber out of his hand ONE SECOND before Anakin walks in...thats also some huge coincidence???? Anakins appraisal of the scene is Palpatine on the ground at the tip of Maces saber and at his mercy, right where Sidious wanted the scene to be so Anakin would be forced into a quick decision.

-After playing possum, once Anakin chooses and cuts off Maces arm, Sidious leaps back to life and kills Windu with lightning/tossing him thru the window so right there he's blatantly playing the feeble old man in order to gain Anakins sympathy.

and to those that say Im a Sidious fanboy, Yoda would win in a saber duel between them which is why Palpatine lost his saber when fighting in the senate chambers. But I do believe Sidious has the edge on Yoda when it comes to Force powers.

Sidious Fanboy!! lol

I'll just start by saying if you ever want to do a battlezone on this topic I would be more than happy to. You know, and I know, you'd lose that. The vast majority of canon evidence lies DIRECTLY on my side... all the sids apologist have in their speculation and theories. Which as you know counts to very little in a debate. All I would literally have to do is cite Lucas without any ambiguity saying Mace OVERCAME sidious. Lucas he uses the term Mace overpowered Sidious. Or I could cite the novel with cites Sidious attacking mace with all his might. Those 3 little canon lines destroy, literally destroy, any theory that Sids threw that fight. It would be that easy. However, if you ever want to try, it's an open challenge.

Please don't talk to me about what's canon and what's not. Do you let Disney control the logical side of your brain to? Disney had ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the novel and movies in question we are discussing. Not one thing. The ONLY authority on canon was Lucas. So why would we discount Lucas' intention (the creator of the God damn universe) because Disney years later says it's not how they see it. Ummm who gives a flying f what Disney thinks. Sure, going forward, any movies that come out, I respect Disney's authority on canon. They are now in control of what comes out in every medium. If somebody later buys Disney, I also won't through out their version of canon for the movies they make because Legend says they have the authority. All that matters to me is who had the authority at the time it was written or made. That was Lucas. Period, end of story. I hope you're smart enough to use your brain to decide what truly is canon or not, not a company that had nothing to do with something when it was made.

I can go into more detail on this topic if needed. However, I think it's abundantly clear to all, that the evidence lies squarely on my side. I don't care about opinions... I don't care about wild theories.. or coincidences.... I have the authority on the matter directly saying... Mace overpowered Sids.... period end of story. He could've said he threw the fight.. he could've had stover right in the novel he threw the fight. HE DID NO SUCH THING. Not one place in the script.. the novel... the movie does it ever even HINT at him throwing the fight. Not once. That is about as damning as it can get. There is literally no leg to stand on when it comes to this discussion.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Please don't talk to me about what's canon and what's not. Do you let Disney control the logical side of your brain to? Disney had ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the novel and movies in question we are discussing. Not one thing. The ONLY authority on canon was Lucas. So why would we discount Lucas' intention (the creator of the God damn universe) because Disney years later says it's not how they see it. Ummm who gives a flying f what Disney thinks. Sure, going forward, any movies that come out, I respect Disney's authority on canon. They are now in control of what comes out in every medium. If somebody later buys Disney, I also won't through out their version of canon for the movies they make because Legend says they have the authority. All that matters to me is who had the authority at the time it was written or made. That was Lucas. Period, end of story. I hope you're smart enough to use your brain to decide what truly is canon or not, not a company that had nothing to do with something when it was made.

I can go into more detail on this topic if needed. However, I think it's abundantly clear to all, that the evidence lies squarely on my side. I don't care about opinions... I don't care about wild theories.. or coincidences.... I have the authority on the matter directly saying... Mace overpowered Sids.... period end of story. He could've said he threw the fight.. he could've had stover right in the novel he threw the fight. HE DID NO SUCH THING. Not one place in the script.. the novel... the movie does it ever even HINT at him throwing the fight. Not once. That is about as damning as it can get. There is literally no leg to stand on when it comes to this discussion.

Doesnt matter what you say. Once Lucas sold to Disney, it became theirs to do with as they wish. They have said on several occasion that the official mythos has been stripped down to what occurs in the movies and TV shows only. You can hem and haw and argue your point til your blue in the face but the fact remains that all else has been relegated to the "legends" AKA it never happened section of Star Wars lore.

Now having said that, watch ROTS again and try telling me again without lying to yourself of course that Palpatine didn't throw that fight because he 100% did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep saying over and over that Mace only stalemated sidious, which again, is being disingenuous. I won't rehash the same argument over and over because there is no need. The vast, and I mean vast, majority of evidence clearly and without question supports Mace beat Sidious. So this whole notion that he was only able to stalemate Sids is a flat out lie. He did far more, and better than simply stalemating him.

Second, Vjun is a terrible example to use. Dooku (while amped) lost against an injured Yoda. That only hurts your case more, it doesn't help it.

Next this whole "theory" that the amp brings him to Dooku level is simply ludicrous. Let me explain this one more time so it's crystal clear, Dooku never EVER beat Mace in a real fight. The ONLY reference to him besting him was in sparring. As we know, in real life or fantasy land, sparring counts for very little. To say nothing of the fact, that it only says he bested in him sparring at some point... which is to say... that doesn't mean Mace did win more sparring sessions. It didn't allude to it one way or another. If mace beat Dooku 25 times in sparring... and Dooku one once.. I could still stay Dooku and Yoda were the only ones to best Mace in sparring. Yet, he lost many more times than won. So even that one line doesn't mean much and there is no context to the situation. Nevermind that Mace hadn't even learned Vaapad at that point. It essence that line is utterly meaningless besides it showing that they are very close in sabers.

Well in all fairness he did. Ok even if the debate on whether Sidious threw the fight or not, take that out the equation. Mace only was able to stalemate Sidious with Vaapad. I'm surprised someone of your "advanced knowledge" doesn't understand that. It was only through Vaaapd was Mace able to contend with Sidious, and only through Shatterpoint was he able to actually get the emperor in his possum position. Well according to you all evidence points to Mace. However you aren't in charge of anything Star Wars related so just your opinion. Yeah mace did do a lot more. He got his arm cut off, then was thrown out of a window.

Actually I never brought Vjun in as a way to debate to Dooku's power. You did. I simply brought it in I case someone questions why I'm using EU sources, and I can just show it to you so I'm not questioned on why.

Not like they had chances to fight. They met I believe twice. Once they fought and Mace comments that he was willing to sacrifice himself showing that he himself knows that Dooku can still beat him. Neither one showed superiority over the other. Well considering during this time period the Sith are hiding not much else to do but spar. So I ask you this, of sparring means nothing then why do you have people like Mace, being known as one of the best Duelsit ever. All he did was spar really. He fought two Sith and he had knowledge of the other and SPARRED to make a style that would be able to stalemate the dark lord. So yes sparring means a lot. While I agree that in sparring you don't have to worry about dieing to the same degree, you employ the same skill set to the same degree depending on the circumstances. If I'm mace and I'm sparring with Yoda. I am going to fight my heart out just to say I beat Yoda. So yes sparring does mean something and hold weight and matter. If they didn't why woudl they do it. Guess what Mace, all he did was Spar. He wasn't in the era of Malgus where lightsaber fighting was an everyday thing. He was born in the era of blasters. Dooku is even criticized for choosing a style that has become obsolete and weak to modern day blasters. Yet he is known as one of the greatest. Same with Dooku. Sparred. Obi, qui Gon, all noted as some of the best of all time or in the Jedi order and all they did was SPAR to hone their skills. To say Mace beat Dooku in sparring is possible, but speculation unless explicitly stated.

On the matter of Sidious vs Windu after consideration, I've found that what Kurupt says is true in some cases and other for Sidious throwing it say is true. The truth most likely lies within the two extremes. There is proof for both sides of the coin.

Lucas says Mace overpowered and overcame Sidious
Nothing ever EXPLICITLY says Sidious threw the fight and that could be counted as a very large detail that could be noted
There is no question that Sidious held back due to the novel saying that Sidious came with all his might

However there are also claims for the opposite side.

Sidious did have a second saber in ROTS so he could have pulled that out once disarmed
He did allow Windu to live when he had a saber at his chest, but didn't take the killing blow
He goes down right as Anakin comes in and he's at the perfect position
Lucas EXPLICITLY states that he was faking his loss of power
He was bending Windu's Lightsaber so he really could have just killed him that way, but why not?
He knows the Jedi are coming and Anakins struggle.
Official site says it's something shady about this fight

Overall this is a challenging question and Kurupt as thoroughly said his part and many others have said theirs. My only message to Kurupt is that you saying your proof destroys the other sides proof is fairly mistaken. If it destroyed it the debate wouldn't continue. So rather than continue this pointless debate, we shall debate about this topic. Jedi vs Sith. Sidious vs Windu victor doesn't really make a difference. The fact that Mace was able to stalemate with Vaapad shows his skills. So who won is irrelevant. What is important is finding out how much of that he woudl retain if he fought Dooku since that whom he will be fighting in this battle.

The very fact that Dooku had such a good showing against Yoda at the end of ATOC makes him at least an equal to Mace. And we know that Yoda wasn't holding back against Dooku because as they are chasing him he remarks that Dooku MUST be stopped or the war will continue, he also remarks on how powerful Dooku has become before they have their duel. Yes Dooku crushed the pillar to escape but the fact that he was even able to be on even keel with an all out Yoda demonstrates his skill.

I think the Sith can win this, it seems to me that the two Sith are better force users than the Jedi and thats what it'll end up coming down to eventually.

I agree with that. So I guess without Vaapad Dooku would without doubt win. With Vaapad, I still say Dooku wins however a smaller majority.

Is there really any doubt that Palpatine faking his weakness during his duel with Windu was an act? Clearly Palpatine goes from a weak, feeble and broken man begging for his life to screaming UNLIMITED POWER in a matter of seconds. This was obviously done to get Anakin to take action, his final test to turn him to the Dark Side, which once he did, and the ruse no longer needed, Palpatine once more showed his True Power and blasted Windu out the window. This literally couldnt be more obvious when you watch the movie. Im not saying Mace couldnt beat Palpatine in a duel, Im more saying that its pretty clear that he didnt Really beat him in ROTS.

Originally posted by relentless1
Doesnt matter what you say. Once Lucas sold to Disney, it became theirs to do with as they wish. They have said on several occasion that the official mythos has been stripped down to what occurs in the movies and TV shows only. You can hem and haw and argue your point til your blue in the face but the fact remains that all else has been relegated to the "legends" AKA it never happened section of Star Wars lore.

Now having said that, watch ROTS again and try telling me again without lying to yourself of course that Palpatine didn't throw that fight because he 100% did.

Again.... I watched the movie... I saw mace disarm Sids... I saw it.. I saw LUCAS REFERENCE that very scene and without ambiguity go... Mace overpowered Sids. IMO it's you that needs to watch the movie without your Sidious sunglasses on. Again, the evidence lies directly and squarely on my side. it's literally a non argument. Sids lost, deal with it.

Okay, well you're free to have them tell you what's canon about stuff that had nothing to do with. I'll just go ahead and go with the creator of the universe and who the authority was at the time the books were written. I'm comfortable doing that

Originally posted by DTM
Is there really any doubt that Palpatine faking his weakness during his duel with Windu was an act? Clearly Palpatine goes from a weak, feeble and broken man begging for his life to screaming UNLIMITED POWER in a matter of seconds. This was obviously done to get Anakin to take action, his final test to turn him to the Dark Side, which once he did, and the ruse no longer needed, Palpatine once more showed his True Power and blasted Windu out the window. This literally couldnt be more obvious when you watch the movie. Im not saying Mace couldnt beat Palpatine in a duel, Im more saying that its pretty clear that he didnt Really beat him in ROTS.

Clearly you're a little behind in this debate. There is NO debate that Sids feigned being as weak as he was at the end. I've never said otherwise. Lucas flat out says so. HOWEVER, that was ONLY after he had LOST the fight and been disarmed did he try that tactic. The debate we are having is that Sids intentionally threw the entire fight... He let himself get disarmed... let himself be in a weak prone position on purpose. That is DIRECTLY and without question a flat out fairytale and a lie. Lucas LITERALLY, and again, with ambiguity that Mace overpowered and overcame sids. Both words were used. That couldn't be any more clear. The novel notes that Sids attacked windu with all his dark might. Does that sound like there is even an inkling of how holding back or throwing the fight? Of course not.

Let's also forget, AFTER he was disarmed.. he tried AGAIN to kill mace and fires lighting at him... lighting that was visibly hurting him the longer it went on. Palps LITERALLY says.. NO, NO, YOu WILL DIE!!!. Again showing he was trying to kill Mace. This was AFTER Anakin had already walked in. If he was trying to act weak and helpless.. why would you try and fire powerful sustained lighting uttering you will die? You wouldn't. He was trying to kill him.. he only switched tactics once he was also getting damage and mace was enduring (though struggling). People act like he could've just keep going and won, and don't realize, he was in serious trouble himself. If he didn't stop and try another route (turning Anakin) who knows who would've won. However, that doesn't change the fact that Mace beat and disarmed Sids in direct combat. It's really that simple. As I said, it's an open challenge to anybody who says Sids threw the entire fight.

Originally posted by relentless1
The very fact that Dooku had such a good showing against Yoda at the end of ATOC makes him at least an equal to Mace. And we know that Yoda wasn't holding back against Dooku because as they are chasing him he remarks that Dooku MUST be stopped or the war will continue, he also remarks on how powerful Dooku has become before they have their duel. Yes Dooku crushed the pillar to escape but the fact that he was even able to be on even keel with an all out Yoda demonstrates his skill.

I think the Sith can win this, it seems to me that the two Sith are better force users than the Jedi and thats what it'll end up coming down to eventually.

You're wrong here again, The novel explicitly states Yoda had reservation about fighting his old apprentice. It also explicitly states he only wanted to capture him not kill him because of the love he still felt for him. He's conflicted. Even then, he casually gets the better of Dooku and makes him flee.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
On the matter of Sidious vs Windu after consideration, I've found that what Kurupt says is true in some cases and other for Sidious throwing it say is true. The truth most likely lies within the two extremes. There is proof for both sides of the coin.

Lucas says Mace overpowered and overcame Sidious
Nothing ever EXPLICITLY says Sidious threw the fight and that could be counted as a very large detail that could be noted
There is no question that Sidious held back due to the novel saying that Sidious came with all his might

However there are also claims for the opposite side.

Sidious did have a second saber in ROTS so he could have pulled that out once disarmed
He did allow Windu to live when he had a saber at his chest, but didn't take the killing blow
He goes down right as Anakin comes in and he's at the perfect position
Lucas EXPLICITLY states that he was faking his loss of power
He was bending Windu's Lightsaber so he really could have just killed him that way, but why not?
He knows the Jedi are coming and Anakins struggle.
Official site says it's something shady about this fight

Overall this is a challenging question and Kurupt as thoroughly said his part and many others have said theirs. My only message to Kurupt is that you saying your proof destroys the other sides proof is fairly mistaken. If it destroyed it the debate wouldn't continue. So rather than continue this pointless debate, we shall debate about this topic. Jedi vs Sith. Sidious vs Windu victor doesn't really make a difference. The fact that Mace was able to stalemate with Vaapad shows his skills. So who won is irrelevant. What is important is finding out how much of that he woudl retain if he fought Dooku since that whom he will be fighting in this battle.

Buddy just because a debate continues and people don't concede doesn't mean one person doesn't have more proof than another. If you can't see that more canon official proof lies on my side that yours... Well I just can't help that. It very clearly does. You still might think your theory is true, but you should be able to see where more canon proof lies.

Originally posted by relentless1


1. nowhere in the established new canon is there any mention of "combat forms" (if there is please feel free to correct me with proof)




There is bro. The latest source book from Disney confirms them. And there's very little difference to the old EU forms.

One of the forms was even mentioned in Rebels.

Also of note is that even before the Disney purchase TCW was always very faithful to the Forms in the way it portrayed the combatants. Kenobi was time and time again been portrayed as a "defensive" fighter, and Dooku as a one handed fencer.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're wrong here again, The novel explicitly states Yoda had reservation about fighting his old apprentice.


Which novel states that? The AOTC Novel doesn't as far as I remember.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It also explicitly states he only wanted to capture him not kill him

He says "Capture him we must" in the novel. Although that might be over ridden by the movie dialogue. In any case there's no issue there, as even Mace attempted to "Arrest" Palpatine, and not kill him. You don't honestly think that means Mace was holding back do you?





Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
because of the love he still felt for him. He's conflicted.


Not mentioned in the novel, but hinted at in TCW. But again Yoda won't let that stop him doing what he has to do. He is the Ultimate Jedi Master after all.

Note- Whatever releationship Yoda had with Dooku, I doubt it was stronger than the connection Kenobi had with Skywalker, but that didn't stop Kenobi doing what he needed to do.




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even then, he casually gets the better of Dooku and makes him flee.


The Force fight seemed quite casual for him, but doubt the Saber fight was.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Buddy just because a debate continues and people don't concede doesn't mean one person doesn't have more proof than another. If you can't see that more canon official proof lies on my side that yours... Well I just can't help that. It very clearly does. You still might think your theory is true, but you should be able to see where more canon proof lies.

I'm simply saying there is much more to than this than you realize. Instead of just being an almost bully how about you look at both sides. Again have you not seen my post? I've explicitly put down canon sources for both sides and have said that I personally beleive this is a very complex battle. I agree you have proof for your claim, I admit that you have a well backed and developed case while you refuse to do the same, I do. However you're case isn't correct to the point you can go around saying this is right, and when you're approached with something just don't go like I've taken care of that when you clearly haven't. Also I answered the question you asked in one of those threads where you asked why wouldn't they say it(Sidious threw the fight) since it was a big plot thing. No it's not. At the end the Emperor won, both the his battle with Windu and everything else, so who cares really. Thai debate has boiled to a more personal thing and you should be more open minded and less of a bully.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again.... I watched the movie... I saw mace disarm Sids... I saw it.. I saw LUCAS REFERENCE that very scene and without ambiguity go... Mace overpowered Sids. IMO it's you that needs to watch the movie without your Sidious sunglasses on. Again, the evidence lies directly and squarely on my side. it's literally a non argument. Sids lost, deal with it.

Okay, well you're free to have them tell you what's canon about stuff that had nothing to do with. I'll just go ahead and go with the creator of the universe and who the authority was at the time the books were written. I'm comfortable doing that

I have a question for you. What if Lucas never said Windu "overcame" Sidious or "overpowered" him? The scene plays out exactly the same way except he never says that. We still see Sidious get his lightsaber kicked out of his hand, and Sidious on the ground. So what difference does it make that he says those. Really and absolutely nothing. He's just describing that particular moment. He's not settling a debate, he's not determining a winner, he's describing a scene. So those two words don't destroy, crush, or take down anything they simply show him doing his job as a director and describe the scene. Ok I'm going to do what you do. All the evidence lies with me. You can watch the movie and obviously tell Sidious won the fight. There is no doubt in question Sidious threw the fight to get Anakin to the dark side which is canonically proven. The novel speciffacly states that Windu felt Anakins presence before he even got to the room, so that woudl mean Sidious would too since his powers in the force and foresight Are much greater than Windu's correct? The official site says it was something shady of that battle. Anakin walks in the moment Sidious is in the perfect position. Sidious knows he's the only way to save Padme and he knows Anakin knows this. I have more proof on my side, so Sidious threw the fight, end of story. Majority u fo the proof lies with me, game over. You can choose to live in that fantasy land where Widnu could actually beat the Emperor, but that's all it will ever be is a fantasy land. Also it's canocially confirmed Sidious had two sabers in ROTS so he could have pulled that saber out and kept on fighting.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're wrong here again, The novel explicitly states Yoda had reservation about fighting his old apprentice. It also explicitly states he only wanted to capture him not kill him because of the love he still felt for him. He's conflicted. Even then, he casually gets the better of Dooku and makes him flee.

Movie shows differently. So reservation s going all out in an Ataru frenzy? Lucas himself says that Yoda has to muster all his strength, and power to fight Dooku, so why hold back. He knows Dooku isn't someone to be messed with and he doesn't know how much he's improved wishing these last years.

It is also stated that Windu was barley able to hold Palpatines lightning back, his lightsaber was beginning to bend towards his face in fact, Sidious held back and could have killed Windu with that at any time but he chose not to because he wanted Anakin to be forced to make a choice.

I get it that you have some solid reasoning as to why Sidious would have lost that fight but it just doesnt jive with the character of Palpatine that we have seen thus far in the story:

Sidious is an expert strategist and planner, he can forsee the future these are things that are known facts about the character. So why tell Anakin he's a Sith at all? He could have just executed Order 66 at any time after becoming Supreme Commander of the Army but he didn't because he wanted Anakin as his final apprentice.

So he knew the Jedi would come for him, he was ready for that after telling Anakin the truth, you think a guy like that would leave a fight with Windu to chance without a game plan in mind? What happens to his plan to turn Anakin if he walks into the room and Sidious has just killed 4 Jedi easy peezy?

Him throwing the fight lines up perfectly with his plan to turn Anakin as well as fits perfectly with the characters MO. Trickery and deceit are the Siths ways...

If you want to reference the novels it says that Mace felt Palpatines shatterpoint and that supposedly gave him upper hand but what he failed to realize was that Sidious was channeling Anakins fear and doubt through himself and deceiving Mace in the process.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
There is bro. The latest source book from Disney confirms them. And there's very little difference to the old EU forms.

One of the forms was even mentioned in Rebels.

Also of note is that even before the Disney purchase TCW was always very faithful to the Forms in the way it portrayed the combatants. Kenobi was time and time again been portrayed as a "defensive" fighter, and Dooku as a one handed fencer.

thanks, I didn't know if they had kept all that as canon or not

Originally posted by relentless1
thanks, I didn't know if they had kept all that as canon or not

There's slight differences, and since more emphasis on some factors such as environmental influences, which I always argued plays a big part in SW fights.

But on the whole they're very similar to the old SW Eu Saber forms.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which novel states that? The AOTC Novel doesn't as far as I remember.




He says "Capture him we must" in the novel. Although that might be over ridden by the movie dialogue. In any case there's no issue there, as even Mace attempted to "Arrest" Palpatine, and not kill him. You don't honestly think that means Mace was holding back do you?








Not mentioned in the novel, but hinted at in TCW. But again Yoda won't let that stop him doing what he has to do. He is the Ultimate Jedi Master after all.

Note- Whatever releationship Yoda had with Dooku, I doubt it was stronger than the connection Kenobi had with Skywalker, but that didn't stop Kenobi doing what he needed to do.







The Force fight seemed quite casual for him, but doubt the Saber fight was.

Really can't disagree with much of anything you said bud.

All I will say is... mace going to arrest Sids is much much different than yoda going to arrest his former padawan. That is something you'd surely agree to. One could go for the kill quite easily, the other, would have more reservations.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I have a question for you. What if Lucas never said Windu "overcame" Sidious or "overpowered" him? The scene plays out exactly the same way except he never says that. We still see Sidious get his lightsaber kicked out of his hand, and Sidious on the ground. So what difference does it make that he says those. Really and absolutely nothing. He's just describing that particular moment. He's not settling a debate, he's not determining a winner, he's describing a scene. So those two words don't destroy, crush, or take down anything they simply show him doing his job as a director and describe the scene. Ok I'm going to do what you do. All the evidence lies with me. You can watch the movie and obviously tell Sidious won the fight. There is no doubt in question Sidious threw the fight to get Anakin to the dark side which is canonically proven. The novel speciffacly states that Windu felt Anakins presence before he even got to the room, so that woudl mean Sidious would too since his powers in the force and foresight Are much greater than Windu's correct? The official site says it was something shady of that battle. Anakin walks in the moment Sidious is in the perfect position. Sidious knows he's the only way to save Padme and he knows Anakin knows this. I have more proof on my side, so Sidious threw the fight, end of story. Majority u fo the proof lies with me, game over. You can choose to live in that fantasy land where Widnu could actually beat the Emperor, but that's all it will ever be is a fantasy land. Also it's canocially confirmed Sidious had two sabers in ROTS so he could have pulled that saber out and kept on fighting.

Even if Lucas never said that.. the proof still lies on my side. We still have

1. It never once, not ever was it stated Sids threw the fight... Not iin the novel.. script.. Movie... no place. They added so much dialogue in all these places to outlay the plot and even go into detail about what somebody was thinking. Stuff the movie didn't even go into. Yet, there is NOTHING about throwing a fight.

2. We have the novel explicitly stating Sids attacking windu will all his dark might. That directly contradicts any theory that he threw the fight

3. We still have Sids literally and without an ambiguity saying No, NO YOU WILL DIE!!! As he fires lighting at Mace.. not just average lighting... but a sustained barrage of lighting so powerful it deformed him and made mace barely able to keep the blade away from his face. This brings up two points

A. How does Sidious know Mace could hold it back or would be able to block it in general, let alone for a sustained period of time. He never dueled Mace before and would have zero knowledge on whether he could or not. For something Mace was barely able to keep off of him... that seems to be cutting oddly close and doing a lot fo guess work for somebody who according to some is a great planner. He had zero way of knowing Mace could hold out... what if he couldn't.. Then where is his plan

B. Sidious had ZERO way of knowing that Mace would also resist killing him. He had no way of knowing that. Why would he leave himself helpless with a sword to his throat and able to kill him at any point.. That seems like a really big chance to take without somebody he's dealt with very little. Sids is the dark lord he's trained his whole life to combat and kill. That same lord was in fact in more control that he had originally feared. That same sith lord just killed 3 of his friends. Yet he knew Mace would hold his sword... Nope, don't buy it. Doesn't make sense. He would have zero way to know that.

C. When Sidious was VISIBLY trying to strike him down during the saber fight. what happens if Mace is unable to block it. Why increase your speed via the force... and move so fast that Mace has to amp his speed just to compete. So fast, that even Anakin can't perceive him. If he's trying to throwing the fight why would he amp himself so much. Do you see boxer trying to throw a fight by going for a KO or fighting awesomely? Of course not, yet that is what you're expecting me to believe that here. Not for one second does that make sense to me. If you're trying to throw the fight... You don't start increasing your speed dramatically and throw deadly saber strikes at someone. What if they mess up and don't block it? Then what? Where is his great plan then? See, it all just doesn't make logical sense.

All of the above is WITHOUT Lucas DIRECT and unambiguous statement that Mace beat Sids. Honestly guys, just accept it, he lost. Jesus

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even if Lucas never said that.. the proof still lies on my side. We still have

1. It never once, not ever was it stated Sids threw the fight... Not iin the novel.. script.. Movie... no place. They added so much dialogue in all these places to outlay the plot and even go into detail about what somebody was thinking. Stuff the movie didn't even go into. Yet, there is NOTHING about throwing a fight.

2. We have the novel explicitly stating Sids attacking windu will all his dark might. That directly contradicts any theory that he threw the fight

3. We still have Sids literally and without an ambiguity saying No, NO YOU WILL DIE!!! As he fires lighting at Mace.. not just average lighting... but a sustained barrage of lighting so powerful it deformed him and made mace barely able to keep the blade away from his face. This brings up two points

A. How does Sidious know Mace could hold it back or would be able to block it in general, let alone for a sustained period of time. He never dueled Mace before and would have zero knowledge on whether he could or not. For something Mace was barely able to keep off of him... that seems to be cutting oddly close and doing a lot fo guess work for somebody who according to some is a great planner. He had zero way of knowing Mace could hold out... what if he couldn't.. Then where is his plan

B. Sidious had ZERO way of knowing that Mace would also resist killing him. He had no way of knowing that. Why would he leave himself helpless with a sword to his throat and able to kill him at any point.. That seems like a really big chance to take without somebody he's dealt with very little. Sids is the dark lord he's trained his whole life to combat and kill. That same lord was in fact in more control that he had originally feared. That same sith lord just killed 3 of his friends. Yet he knew Mace would hold his sword... Nope, don't buy it. Doesn't make sense. He would have zero way to know that.

C. When Sidious was VISIBLY trying to strike him down during the saber fight. what happens if Mace is unable to block it. Why increase your speed via the force... and move so fast that Mace has to amp his speed just to compete. So fast, that even Anakin can't perceive him. If he's trying to throwing the fight why would he amp himself so much. Do you see boxer trying to throw a fight by going for a KO or fighting awesomely? Of course not, yet that is what you're expecting me to believe that here. Not for one second does that make sense to me. If you're trying to throw the fight... You don't start increasing your speed dramatically and throw deadly saber strikes at someone. What if they mess up and don't block it? Then what? Where is his great plan then? See, it all just doesn't make logical sense.

All of the above is WITHOUT Lucas DIRECT and unambiguous statement that Mace beat Sids. Honestly guys, just accept it, he lost. Jesus

Ok let me ask you this.

1. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you? You rant on and on about logical thinking, so where does that come in. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you?

2. Actually no it doesn't. The only thing it contradicts is anyone who says that Sidious wasn't going all out.

3. Isn't that after the duel where, he is basically in a playing possum mode where Lucas states that he is faking weKness and where the novel explicitly says that Sidious was bending Windu's saber? So really he could have just bent it to kill Windu since we know he was faking weakness so not like he was legitimately down. You see evidence works both ways my friend.

A. There is a passage in the novel Shatterpoint where Sidious learns of Vaapad form Wimdu himself. I shall post the video where I received this information so you may read it for yourself. https://youtu.be/thsFbDtLrVg 3:55 So yes he knows about Vaapad and I'm pretty sure that once he sent it and it pushed back on him, I'm pretty sure you know that yes this guy can take it and send it back which was exactly what Sidious wanted.

B. You do understand that he can see into the future correct. You do understand that right. Also he wouldn't need to. The exact moment Sidious was on the ground and the exact moment Windu had his blade right on top of him was the moment that Anakin walked in. Also he wouldn't need to know. He had the force so if anything went out of plan he had a backup option. Sidious is a master manipulator. Also the Soth of Banes line aren't trained killers. They are trained MANIPULATORS more than killers. May I remind you of Sidious entire political career.

C. I love this point because it's possibly the railway one to refute. Considering the Movie>Book what happens their is more than what happens in the book. Also Novel only canon where it aligns with the Movie. Notice in the first part of the battle Sidious has Mace at sword point and could have killed, but gave it up. Why? https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:07 Sidious has him at sword point, but doesn't send the killing blow. Well really it would be Mace who woudl amp up first. He already can't compete with Sidious. Without Vaapad, he wouldn't have been blitzed like the other masters, but he would have lasted about the same time Dooku did with his battle with Yoda. So with that it woudl be Windu to amp up his seed first and Sidious woudl adjust accordingly. This is pretty much common sense, not sure how you aren't getting it.

So all of these points are weak defenses to your apparent fledgling argument. All of this is completely ,and honestly just crappy on your part. All of the questions you ask are pretty much answered except you have put yourself into such a mindset that you're right so you don't accept any other opinion. You should fix that before I embarrass you. I await your response to this. Pretty good argument on my part if I do say so myself. Well said and well backed with evidence. Also I ask again why didn't Sidious pull out his second saber if Widnu won? He Cousy have kept going, he's gotten out of worse scrapes than that with Yoda.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok let me ask you this.

1. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you? You rant on and on about logical thinking, so where does that come in. Does everything need to be explicitly stated for you?

2. Actually no it doesn't. The only thing it contradicts is anyone who says that Sidious wasn't going all out.

3. Isn't that after the duel where, he is basically in a playing possum mode where Lucas states that he is faking weKness and where the novel explicitly says that Sidious was bending Windu's saber? So really he could have just bent it to kill Windu since we know he was faking weakness so not like he was legitimately down. You see evidence works both ways my friend.

A. There is a passage in the novel Shatterpoint where Sidious learns of Vaapad form Wimdu himself. I shall post the video where I received this information so you may read it for yourself. https://youtu.be/thsFbDtLrVg 3:55 So yes he knows about Vaapad and I'm pretty sure that once he sent it and it pushed back on him, I'm pretty sure you know that yes this guy can take it and send it back which was exactly what Sidious wanted.

B. You do understand that he can see into the future correct. You do understand that right. Also he wouldn't need to. The exact moment Sidious was on the ground and the exact moment Windu had his blade right on top of him was the moment that Anakin walked in. Also he wouldn't need to know. He had the force so if anything went out of plan he had a backup option. Sidious is a master manipulator. Also the Soth of Banes line aren't trained killers. They are trained MANIPULATORS more than killers. May I remind you of Sidious entire political career.

C. I love this point because it's possibly the railway one to refute. Considering the Movie>Book what happens their is more than what happens in the book. Also Novel only canon where it aligns with the Movie. Notice in the first part of the battle Sidious has Mace at sword point and could have killed, but gave it up. Why? https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:07 Sidious has him at sword point, but doesn't send the killing blow. Well really it would be Mace who woudl amp up first. He already can't compete with Sidious. Without Vaapad, he wouldn't have been blitzed like the other masters, but he would have lasted about the same time Dooku did with his battle with Yoda. So with that it woudl be Windu to amp up his seed first and Sidious woudl adjust accordingly. This is pretty much common sense, not sure how you aren't getting it.

So all of these points are weak defenses to your apparent fledgling argument. All of this is completely ,and honestly just crappy on your part. All of the questions you ask are pretty much answered except you have put yourself into such a mindset that you're right so you don't accept any other opinion. You should fix that before I embarrass you. I await your response to this. Pretty good argument on my part if I do say so myself. Well said and well backed with evidence. Also I ask again why didn't Sidious pull out his second saber if Widnu won? He Cousy have kept going, he's gotten out of worse scrapes than that with Yoda.

Are you being serious here? I refuse to believe it. You literally said nothing of substance. You answered nothing, let alone logically, and yet you come back with... This was a great post? wtf is going on here.

You have zero evidence he knew windu would hold his blade and not kill Mace. Your argument you claim is so great against that is that it's the moment Anakin walked in? What? Who cares. Anakin walking in would change nothing. Either mace would go for the kill or he wouldn't. Plain and simple. Anakin could do nothing about it at that point.

What's worse that just illustrates my point further. If Sids was trying to feign weakness.. Why would he all of a sudden go DIE DIE and fire lighting at Mace as Anakin walking in? He was already on the ground.. sword to this chest.. no weapon in hand. That wasn't weak enough? Instead, you claim he needs to go NO.. NO YOU WILL DIE!!! and fire a sustained lighting blast at Mace? This would show weakness to impress Anakin? This great genius and manipulator didn't realize he was already dead to rights? Oh let me guess, he knew Mace wouldn't, knew Anakin wouldn't assist in his capture, that firing lighting would end up making him look weak, mace would be strong enough and powerful to take a sustained lighting blast.. .one that fried your own face and barely was kept away from mace's face... RIGHTTTTTTT. Yeah that is all totally logical. This is just the added evidence to the already damming canon evidence.

Your next great point is that Sids knew of vaapad and thus what??? Who gives a flying f about it.. he didn't study it.. he didn't master it.. he never fought anybody who used it.. let alone as proficient as Mace is with it. To say nothing of the fact that knowing about something and studying is a far cry from fighting a master of it. They are worlds apart. So no, I reject the notion that Sids knowing of it, somehow prepared him for what he was about to face. To say nothing of not even knowing EXACTLY how good Mace is. It's like you don't live in this world. Watch boxing, people get talked up all the time, but get in the ring and look like shit. There could be all the talk and lore of Windu you can imagine.. that doesn't for one second mean Sids would have any clue exactly how good he was. Not like he fought Yoda or other top masters to prepare himself for the fight. You call this a good point on your part? I'm sorry it's not.

Anyways, I think we've circled around this over and over. You know, and I know, the proof is on my side. Crying and whining about it changes nothing.

you've provided no more proof than we have kurupt thanosi and just because you say yours is valid means nothing. In fact it means less than nothing because youre so obtuse about your views on this. Frankly theres more proof here that Sidious was manipulating the entire situation in order to turn Anakin, anybody thats watched ROTS will tell you the same

You mean other than lucas' own clear words? That alone is exponentially more proof than any sids apologist has cited. There is simply no way around that fact bud

Lucas also claims that Greedo shot first, you buy that too?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than lucas' own clear words? That alone is exponentially more proof than any sids apologist has cited. There is simply no way around that fact bud

This is clearly not the case when the Official Site itself questions it. And pretty much every other Canon statement on the fight states Windu Appeared to have gained the upper hand. Not that Mace Simply Won, and had Sidious at his mercy..

Btw I personally believe Windu won the Saber fight, though I think it was a One Off due to environmental and contextual circumstances. But to say only Sid apologists say Sids might have thrown the fight is:

1) Claiming the Official Site is written by Sids Apologists and
2) Hypocritical of you then to say Yoda held back on Dooku. Wouldn't that make you a Yoda apologist then?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Really can't disagree with much of anything you said bud.

All I will say is... mace going to arrest Sids is much much different than yoda going to arrest his former padawan. That is something you'd surely agree to. One could go for the kill quite easily, the other, would have more reservations.




Like I said though, Kenobi vs Anakin. Fighting his Padawan didn't stop Kenobi chopping off limbs, so I don't see why that would stop/hold back the Ultimate Jedi Master.

I mean at least Kenobi tried to reason with Anakin and begged him not to make that jump. Yoda didn't try talking Dooku back to the Light Side at all. He first just "tested" His powers to see if he had indeed embraced the dark side. Once that was clear Yoda being the Ultimate Jedi knew there was no going back for him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This is clearly not the case when the Official Site itself questions it. And pretty much every other Canon statement on the fight states Windu Appeared to have gained the upper hand. Not that Mace Simply Won, and had Sidious at his mercy..

Btw I personally believe Windu won the Saber fight, though I think it was a One Off due to environmental and contextual circumstances. But to say only Sid apologists say Sids might have thrown the fight is:

1) Claiming the Official Site is written by Sids Apologists and
2) Hypocritical of you then to say Yoda held back on Dooku. Wouldn't that make you a Yoda apologist then?

This is being disingenuous and you know it. First, that line was added years later.. and I mean years later. Second, to even compare a line on the official site, to Lucas' own clear unambiguous statement is nonsensical. Not only logically are they not even close to the same level of canon or importance, it doesn't even make logical sense to try compare the two. Lucas' was clear, and very clear, when he said Mace overpowered him. That is way more clear and important than a star wars site saying... Things looked kind of suspicious Sorry, they aren't close to the same.

If you're going to subdue somebody and not kill them, yes, that could very well mean you're holding back. It should be obvious that going for the kill means you'll try other options and be more ruthless about it. That just stands to reason. Again though, I wouldn't be a Yoda apologist because Yoda came off superior in that fight. What would I have to apologize for? Me thinking yoda might have held back a little, is a far far cry from, people saying Sids threw the entire fight and could've won whenever he choose to. Those two aren't even in the same stratosphere on apologizing bud and you know it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Are you being serious here? I refuse to believe it. You literally said nothing of substance. You answered nothing, let alone logically, and yet you come back with... This was a great post? wtf is going on here.

You have zero evidence he knew windu would hold his blade and not kill Mace. Your argument you claim is so great against that is that it's the moment Anakin walked in? What? Who cares. Anakin walking in would change nothing. Either mace would go for the kill or he wouldn't. Plain and simple. Anakin could do nothing about it at that point.

What's worse that just illustrates my point further. If Sids was trying to feign weakness.. Why would he all of a sudden go DIE DIE and fire lighting at Mace as Anakin walking in? He was already on the ground.. sword to this chest.. no weapon in hand. That wasn't weak enough? Instead, you claim he needs to go NO.. NO YOU WILL DIE!!! and fire a sustained lighting blast at Mace? This would show weakness to impress Anakin? This great genius and manipulator didn't realize he was already dead to rights? Oh let me guess, he knew Mace wouldn't, knew Anakin wouldn't assist in his capture, that firing lighting would end up making him look weak, mace would be strong enough and powerful to take a sustained lighting blast.. .one that fried your own face and barely was kept away from mace's face... RIGHTTTTTTT. Yeah that is all totally logical. This is just the added evidence to the already damming canon evidence.

Your next great point is that Sids knew of vaapad and thus what??? Who gives a flying f about it.. he didn't study it.. he didn't master it.. he never fought anybody who used it.. let alone as proficient as Mace is with it. To say nothing of the fact that knowing about something and studying is a far cry from fighting a master of it. They are worlds apart. So no, I reject the notion that Sids knowing of it, somehow prepared him for what he was about to face. To say nothing of not even knowing EXACTLY how good Mace is. It's like you don't live in this world. Watch boxing, people get talked up all the time, but get in the ring and look like shit. There could be all the talk and lore of Windu you can imagine.. that doesn't for one second mean Sids would have any clue exactly how good he was. Not like he fought Yoda or other top masters to prepare himself for the fight. You call this a good point on your part? I'm sorry it's not.

Anyways, I think we've circled around this over and over. You know, and I know, the proof is on my side. Crying and whining about it changes nothing.

See here you go again acting like I'm the one whose wrong. I've demonstrated solid evidence for my side and you still rant your stubbornness. Let beat you once again.

Why would he need to know in advance? The moment he shot Windu and it was being reflected back at him, one can figure out that Windu could hold it for a substantial period of time. Also Sidious was bending his blade back at Windu yet stopped? So your entire point here is now crushed as this shows that he had a solid idea. Also he knew about Vaapad as I've already posted in my last post. Also what do you mean Anakin could do nothing about it. He CUT OFF WINDUS ARM.

You do understand his confirmed finning of weakness was after we see his nasty face correct? The first part was to be in a vulnerable position, then reveal his true face which to Anakin woudl gain his sympathy. You are once again wrong. Sidious did have a second blade as confirmed by Dave Filoni. So he had a second blade, but why not pull it out the moment he gets disarmed and we've seen how fast he can pull a saber out. He's a master of the force, so if he's just there without using his force powers what does that show. Also it could be that Windu said you have lost and that didn't go to well with Sidious so he shot lightning and guess what he almost killed Windu but didn't, so again what are you arguing. So really this entire paragraph is you questioning whether he was faking weakness which Lucas has already said so there is no real way around it.

You idiot. If you know about it and it's explained you know what to be ready for. If you I know of someone's fighting style and they actually explain it to you about what it can do you do know what it does and can prepare how to fight it. This is you worst attempt yet. The only difference woudl be that Sidiosu hasn't mastered it to the same depth as Windu, that's it. Mace fought sora a less proficient Vaapad master and guess what the baattle ended in a stalemate. Same with Deepa except wait didn't mace suffer more in that battle? Sidious knew about the style from the best master of it. He knows what it is cable of, doesn't master of he practiced it or not, all that means is that he just can pt use it. He can certainly gage how powerful Windu is. Also why should Sidious care, he's better than Windu so why should he care how powerful he is. All he should worry about is Yoda. If he here's that Widnu is on level of Dooku he knows damn well that Mace can't compete and then at the beginning of the duel Sidious already pushes Mace to his last leg at the first second, even letting him live.

So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2


So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

NO NO YOUUU WILL DIEEEE

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is being disingenuous and you know it. First, that line was added years later.. and I mean years later. Second, to even compare a line on the official site, to Lucas' own clear unambiguous statement is nonsensical. Not only logically are they not even close to the same level of canon or importance, it doesn't even make logical sense to try compare the two. Lucas' was clear, and very clear, when he said Mace overpowered him. That is way more clear and important than a star wars site saying... Things looked kind of suspicious Sorry, they aren't close to the same.

If you're going to subdue somebody and not kill them, yes, that could very well mean you're holding back. It should be obvious that going for the kill means you'll try other options and be more ruthless about it. That just stands to reason. Again though, I wouldn't be a Yoda apologist because Yoda came off superior in that fight. What would I have to apologize for? Me thinking yoda might have held back a little, is a far far cry from, people saying Sids threw the entire fight and could've won whenever he choose to. Those two aren't even in the same stratosphere on apologizing bud and you know it.


I'm not sure how being how being written years later is supposed to prove it false. In terms of contradictions newest is more important than oldest. Because things can get overwritten over time. Like since TCW it's Canon now that Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, not 1. And that he prefers using Dual Sabers to fight. So he almost certainly had that 2nd Saber on him when fighting Mace but didn't use it against Mace, not even when Mace disarmed him.

It's not just Any site. It's the Official site run by Lucasfilm. Whenever there's a new Official SW announcement we hear about it through the Official Site.

Also what Lucas says will always have a level of importance, but you do realise that Lucas isn't in charge of Star Wars Canon anymore right? He gave up that right when he sold it. Lucas also said Vader was a cripple when it came to a Saber fight, and ROTJ Luke was only half trained. Doesn't mean Disney will follow that.

In any case like I said I believe Windu did win the Saber fight. All I'm saying is you can't go around saying "there's absolutely nothing to suggest Sidious threw the fight, and Only a Sids Apologist would even suggest that", when the damn Official Site states it's a possibility.

Actually Yoda failed to Stop/Capture Dooku whilst Sidious succeeded in killing Mace and turning Anakin. So why's it ok for you to think Yoda was holding back on Dooku but not ok for others to think Sidious was holding back on Windu? You can say to them "Look if we're going to debate this we need to give proof and leave speculation out of it". Which would be fair. But you can't just reject the speculation of others concerning a combatant holding back for 1 fight, then come out with your own speculation concerning a combatant holding back for another fight.

My interpretation of some of the things being argued here from watching the movie?

Yoda did not hold back against Dooku. They fought, Dooku knew he was losing ground, so he retreated.

Windu beat Sidious. Sidious did not hold back. He is not a moron, he's not about to have a jedi disarm him when he knows full well he could get killed if he did. He had plans on top of plans, however. Had he beat Windu, he would have turned Anakin some other way (probably from a position of strength). He lost, so he turned Anakin that way. He may well have had a 2nd saber, but I am wagering to bet that the surest way to get killed would be to draw on a peer swordsman who has an overwhelming positional advantage. He knew that, so he played possum instead.

This is my take. All opinions tho, so take of it what you will.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
See here you go again acting like I'm the one whose wrong. I've demonstrated solid evidence for my side and you still rant your stubbornness. Let beat you once again.

Why would he need to know in advance? The moment he shot Windu and it was being reflected back at him, one can figure out that Windu could hold it for a substantial period of time. Also Sidious was bending his blade back at Windu yet stopped? So your entire point here is now crushed as this shows that he had a solid idea. Also he knew about Vaapad as I've already posted in my last post. Also what do you mean Anakin could do nothing about it. He CUT OFF WINDUS ARM.

You do understand his confirmed finning of weakness was after we see his nasty face correct? The first part was to be in a vulnerable position, then reveal his true face which to Anakin woudl gain his sympathy. You are once again wrong. Sidious did have a second blade as confirmed by Dave Filoni. So he had a second blade, but why not pull it out the moment he gets disarmed and we've seen how fast he can pull a saber out. He's a master of the force, so if he's just there without using his force powers what does that show. Also it could be that Windu said you have lost and that didn't go to well with Sidious so he shot lightning and guess what he almost killed Windu but didn't, so again what are you arguing. So really this entire paragraph is you questioning whether he was faking weakness which Lucas has already said so there is no real way around it.

You idiot. If you know about it and it's explained you know what to be ready for. If you I know of someone's fighting style and they actually explain it to you about what it can do you do know what it does and can prepare how to fight it. This is you worst attempt yet. The only difference woudl be that Sidiosu hasn't mastered it to the same depth as Windu, that's it. Mace fought sora a less proficient Vaapad master and guess what the baattle ended in a stalemate. Same with Deepa except wait didn't mace suffer more in that battle? Sidious knew about the style from the best master of it. He knows what it is cable of, doesn't master of he practiced it or not, all that means is that he just can pt use it. He can certainly gage how powerful Windu is. Also why should Sidious care, he's better than Windu so why should he care how powerful he is. All he should worry about is Yoda. If he here's that Widnu is on level of Dooku he knows damn well that Mace can't compete and then at the beginning of the duel Sidious already pushes Mace to his last leg at the first second, even letting him live.

So once again you fail to make your point and even come close to winning. You have lost.

The buffoonery here has reached epic levels. I mean epic. Let's begin...

Post ANY proof that he stopped bending his blade at Mace's face. You claimed he stopped doing so, there was never any reference made to such. Sure, he eventually stopped, but never was it mentioned he was actively trying to bend Mace's blade back at him, let alone that he stopped doing so.

MORON, Anakin could do NOTHING at the point where Mace had his sword at Sids throat. He had JUST walked in and was far away from them at that point. If mace wanted to kill Sids, he could've done so, or attempted to do so and Anakin could do nothing about it. Your claim was, that Sids knew Mace wouldn't kill him because Anakin had just walked in. This point has been utterly crushed. Which is the point, if his whole goal was to turn Anakin and he threw the fight... How would he knew Mace would hold his blade and not try and kill him? He wouldn't, he would have no clue one way or another. That seems like a big chance to take for an expert planner....

Your next moronic point is that Sids knew about Mace's style and thus he was prepared for exactly how good he was and what he'd be able to handle from Sids to give the appearance of a fair up and up fight? Wrong again clownshoes, he would have ZERO way of knowing exactly how good Mace was. None what so ever. He never fought a vaapad master before, let alone THE master of the form. Shit, Sids never fought anybody even remotely has good as Mace or Yoda before meeting them. To say he would know exactly what Mace is capable of, in order to EXACTLY know that he can block this strike or that strike... or would be able to dodge his force push.. or be able to sustain holding off his lighting is simply illogical. Think about it shoes....

I could be a black belt in Karate and Kung-Fu... I could hear about this thing called BJJ... I could read up on it and learn about it. Does that mean when I fight a BJJ black belt I'm prepared for what he's going to try, in exactly what way and which point in time? Of course not, I'd have a general idea of what he might try, but a real fight pays out much differently than a fantasy fight in your head. Sids would have ZERO clue what mace could and couldn't do to portray a up and up fight. I call bullshit.

Further, and you have no answer for this, WHY FIRE LIGHTING AT MACE AT ALL IF YOU"RE TRYING TO ACT WEAK IN FRONT OF ANKAIN? You have ZERO answer for that. He was already on the floor with a blade at his throat WITH NO WEAPON that Anakin could see. Why fire lighting at Mace at all? Why go no you will DIE.. DIE... and fire a powerful lighting blast at mace that you have no clue if he'll be able to block it... let alone block for awhile. Yoda got his saber disarmed by a lighting blast. Yet, Sids knew Mace could hold onto his, not just hold onto it, but hold onto it for awhile. More unsubstantiated nonsense from you. The buffoon you are, you come back with.. well he had to show Anakin his true face? WTF??? Are you retarded? Showing Anakin his true face changes nothing. Cite any reference to that having any significance at all. I call bullshit on your claim. Either prove it or concede you have no proof for this. That made no difference what so ever... Anakin already knew he was a sith.. he as well aware of it. He didnt' need to see his face to show that. That's ludicrous to even suggest so.

You again failed to answer this part... if you're TRYING TO THROW A FIGHT AND APPEAR WEAK... WHY DO YOU INCREASE YOUR FORCE SPEED TO SPEEDS never seen before? Why on God's green earth would you do that? You wouldn't you buffoon. Do you know what throwing a fight means? Have you seen boxing fights thrown.. or bball games thrown.. or any sport for that matter. Do you seem them playing the best they ever have when they are trying to lose? No, in fact you act the opposite, you UNDERPERFORM so you can lose. Yet here, Sids increases his speed dramatically to fight Mace. Why do so if your whole intent is to look weak? That's simply a retarded line of logic.

lastly, and I forgot about this for a second. In the novel it EXPILCTLY states Sids TRIED TO FORCE PUSH MACE OUT THE WINDOW. Mace countered said push with a push of his own to stop himself from flying out the window. How are you trying to push someone out the window if your intent is to lose the fight and show weakness? That doesn't jive with trying to throw the fight. It's beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. YOU DON'T TRY AND KILL SOEMONE YOU'RE TRYING TO LOSE TO YOU MORON. Jesus, are you like 8 and can't comprehend basic concepts ?

This debate has been over since it started. The only canon proof lies on my side. and abundantly on my side. It's not even close. Everybody can see it, everybody knows it. As I said, I have an open battlezone challenge to anybody who thinks Sids threw that entire fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
My interpretation of some of the things being argued here from watching the movie?

Yoda did not hold back against Dooku. They fought, Dooku knew he was losing ground, so he retreated.

Windu beat Sidious. Sidious did not hold back. He is not a moron, he's not about to have a jedi disarm him when he knows full well he could get killed if he did. He had plans on top of plans, however. Had he beat Windu, he would have turned Anakin some other way (probably from a position of strength). He lost, so he turned Anakin that way. He may well have had a 2nd saber, but I am wagering to bet that the surest way to get killed would be to draw on a peer swordsman who has an overwhelming positional advantage. He knew that, so he played possum instead.

This is my take. All opinions tho, so take of it what you will.

A logical and sensible post. We haven't always agreed, but I generally respect your logical line of progression. Accept when it comes to LOTR lol

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not sure how being how being written years later is supposed to prove it false. In terms of contradictions newest is more important than oldest. Because things can get overwritten over time. Like since TCW it's Canon now that Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, not 1. And that he prefers using Dual Sabers to fight. So he almost certainly had that 2nd Saber on him when fighting Mace but didn't use it against Mace, not even when Mace disarmed him.

It's not just Any site. It's the Official site run by Lucasfilm. Whenever there's a new Official SW announcement we hear about it through the Official Site.

Also what Lucas says will always have a level of importance, but you do realise that Lucas isn't in charge of Star Wars Canon anymore right? He gave up that right when he sold it. Lucas also said Vader was a cripple when it came to a Saber fight, and ROTJ Luke was only half trained. Doesn't mean Disney will follow that.

In any case like I said I believe Windu did win the Saber fight. All I'm saying is you can't go around saying "there's absolutely nothing to suggest Sidious threw the fight, and Only a Sids Apologist would even suggest that", when the damn Official Site states it's a possibility.

Actually Yoda failed to Stop/Capture Dooku whilst Sidious succeeded in killing Mace and turning Anakin. So why's it ok for you to think Yoda was holding back on Dooku but not ok for others to think Sidious was holding back on Windu? You can say to them "Look if we're going to debate this we need to give proof and leave speculation out of it". Which would be fair. But you can't just reject the speculation of others concerning a combatant holding back for 1 fight, then come out with your own speculation concerning a combatant holding back for another fight.

being written later is critically important. The further we get away from when the movie was made, the further we get away from Lucas' own words and intention. That was added only recently, and we all know how I feel about recently added material from "sources" that had ABSOLUTLEY nothing to do with the making of the movie in question. I strongly disagree with that line of thought. So when it was put up IS vitally important. However, let's say it was before Disney even bought Lucas, or even 3 years ago. That still, and you would agree, PAILS in comparison to Lucas' own words on the matter. Those two are even in the same stratosphere. You know that, and I know that. So what that site says, in the end, has little bearing on canonicity when compared to Lucas' own words.

I'll have to check the novel again, but I'm sure there is a reference either there or for their vjun fight when it does say yoda was holding back. Further, even if I'm wrong and that Is never mentioned... Him trying to capture him, and not kill him, inherently implies a level of holding back. You full well know other options open up when you go for the kill as opposed to just trying to subdue somebody. Those are worlds apart really. So even then, I would be correct that Yoda was holding back to some degree, in that he wasn't going for the kill.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The buffoonery here has reached epic levels. I mean epic. Let's begin...

Post ANY proof that he stopped bending his blade at Mace's face. You claimed he stopped doing so, there was never any reference made to such. Sure, he eventually stopped, but never was it mentioned he was actively trying to bend Mace's blade back at him, let alone that he stopped doing so.

MORON, Anakin could do NOTHING at the point where Mace had his sword at Sids throat. He had JUST walked in and was far away from them at that point. If mace wanted to kill Sids, he could've done so, or attempted to do so and Anakin could do nothing about it. Your claim was, that Sids knew Mace wouldn't kill him because Anakin had just walked in. This point has been utterly crushed. Which is the point, if his whole goal was to turn Anakin and he threw the fight... How would he knew Mace would hold his blade and not try and kill him? He wouldn't, he would have no clue one way or another. That seems like a big chance to take for an expert planner....

Your next moronic point is that Sids knew about Mace's style and thus he was prepared for exactly how good he was and what he'd be able to handle from Sids to give the appearance of a fair up and up fight? Wrong again clownshoes, he would have ZERO way of knowing exactly how good Mace was. None what so ever. He never fought a vaapad master before, let alone THE master of the form. Shit, Sids never fought anybody even remotely has good as Mace or Yoda before meeting them. To say he would know exactly what Mace is capable of, in order to EXACTLY know that he can block this strike or that strike... or would be able to dodge his force push.. or be able to sustain holding off his lighting is simply illogical. Think about it shoes....

I could be a black belt in Karate and Kung-Fu... I could hear about this thing called BJJ... I could read up on it and learn about it. Does that mean when I fight a BJJ black belt I'm prepared for what he's going to try, in exactly what way and which point in time? Of course not, I'd have a general idea of what he might try, but a real fight pays out much differently than a fantasy fight in your head. Sids would have ZERO clue what mace could and couldn't do to portray a up and up fight. I call bullshit.

Further, and you have no answer for this, WHY FIRE LIGHTING AT MACE AT ALL IF YOU"RE TRYING TO ACT WEAK IN FRONT OF ANKAIN? You have ZERO answer for that. He was already on the floor with a blade at his throat WITH NO WEAPON that Anakin could see. Why fire lighting at Mace at all? Why go no you will DIE.. DIE... and fire a powerful lighting blast at mace that you have no clue if he'll be able to block it... let alone block for awhile. Yoda got his saber disarmed by a lighting blast. Yet, Sids knew Mace could hold onto his, not just hold onto it, but hold onto it for awhile. More unsubstantiated nonsense from you. The buffoon you are, you come back with.. well he had to show Anakin his true face? WTF??? Are you retarded? Showing Anakin his true face changes nothing. Cite any reference to that having any significance at all. I call bullshit on your claim. Either prove it or concede you have no proof for this. That made no difference what so ever... Anakin already knew he was a sith.. he as well aware of it. He didnt' need to see his face to show that. That's ludicrous to even suggest so.

You again failed to answer this part... if you're TRYING TO THROW A FIGHT AND APPEAR WEAK... WHY DO YOU INCREASE YOUR FORCE SPEED TO SPEEDS never seen before? Why on God's green earth would you do that? You wouldn't you buffoon. Do you know what throwing a fight means? Have you seen boxing fights thrown.. or bball games thrown.. or any sport for that matter. Do you seem them playing the best they ever have when they are trying to lose? No, in fact you act the opposite, you UNDERPERFORM so you can lose. Yet here, Sids increases his speed dramatically to fight Mace. Why do so if your whole intent is to look weak? That's simply a retarded line of logic.

lastly, and I forgot about this for a second. In the novel it EXPILCTLY states Sids TRIED TO FORCE PUSH MACE OUT THE WINDOW. Mace countered said push with a push of his own to stop himself from flying out the window. How are you trying to push someone out the window if your intent is to lose the fight and show weakness? That doesn't jive with trying to throw the fight. It's beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. YOU DON'T TRY AND KILL SOEMONE YOU'RE TRYING TO LOSE TO YOU MORON. Jesus, are you like 8 and can't comprehend basic concepts ?

This debate has been over since it started. The only canon proof lies on my side. and abundantly on my side. It's not even close. Everybody can see it, everybody knows it. As I said, I have an open battlezone challenge to anybody who thinks Sids threw that entire fight.

You must mean the buffoonery on your part because the things I have to reply to form you, make me think of a 5 year old with more brains and common sense than you.

Idiotic question. It's simple, did maces head get cut off? No, he stopped before it reached him, very easy question to answer. I never said he was actively on purpose trying to bend Mace's blade I'm only going by what was put in the novel, which said he was bending Mace's blade back. You basically conceded when you said he eventually stopped. He stopped that's the point.

Dumby, yes he could. He could have cut maces hand off at any point, or used a force push, or tackled. Not saying he woudl have but these are all possibilities of things he could have done. Actually no, considering Sidious had the force, so if mace tried he woudl have been stopped by either Sidious or Anakin, who counsel have easily used force speed, or screamed out no, which seems to work on these characters. Sidious also again could have used lightning then or any other one of his superior force powers, or pulled out his second, blade. Now you wanna know one thing that happens, Sidious letting Mace live. Remember around the start when Sidiosu had Mace at sword point but didn't take it. I know I do.

I don't say he knew exactly how powerful, I'm saying he wasn't going in the game complelelty unaware of his capabilities. See the difference. He knew what Vaaapd was and Mace gave him a basic summary of the style and explained it a little bit. Also he hear accolades from people like Yoda and Dooku and Anakin that Mace is overall a great warrior, and that he is second only to Yoda, knows he's about equal to Dooku, or somewhere in that general area, and he know is about Vaapad. He pretty much has a good gage about where Sidious is. Now wheel he won't know the specifics of the style to the core he sure does know about it, and isn't just unprepared.

Technically yes. You've studied all the traditional moves, studied the crafts, and maneuvers, so you should be ready for most if not all of his fighting, unless he's made some sort of adjustment to it in which you can still prepare for with critical thinking. You have a better game than if you woudl have never ever practiced it. Also you've learned, and studied, given all that time you sure the hell should be ready unless you're lazy.

Again yes I have an answer. What happened to Sidious after the lightning was deflected back? A mutation or taking down a mask or whatever you woudl rather. Then he goes"I can't hold on any longer, and I'm to weak". All of that is to get Aankins sympathy and for him to join his side. What about that don't you seem to understand. You always claim I never have an answer when I do. It's just not the answer you wanna here. Again I call you a bully. OMG. That only proves my point further. No weapon ANAKIN could see which only helps him look more vulnerable, when he has the force and a lightsaber to back himself up. Also Sidious has force perception just like every other Jedi, so if mace tried anything funny, sidiosu had a plan. Keep it coming.

Why the hell are you also get me this question when it's so obvious. Your side is that Sidiosu ramped up his speed first. Why woudl he when he's already faster. He adapted to what Mace was doing. If mace got faster than Sidiosu got faster. Do you understand? In both the novel and the movie, in the it shows Sidious has the upper hand at the start. Then Mace slips into Vaapad right? That right there is what made Mace go faster. With the hat Sidiosu woudl also go faster as to keep up with Mace. this only goes to further prove my point that Sidious is both naturally a better fighter and a better fighter than Mace as Mace needed an amp to even get there. Sidious didn't.

Considering once again the Movies>Books. He tried to push Mace out the window implying the window was already open. In the movie no such power was attempted. So really that's just something the author brought in.

Up there you go again thinking you're the only one whose right again. Of all the canon argument lied on your side then why are you making points that I find so easy to counter and you don't have an answer all you can do is waste time and repost the same question over and over and over again, with a couple new ones but much easier to counter. Keep trying kid. The debate isn't over, at least not yet. You beleive you're right, which is the wrong way to go. No scarce that. You think you're 100% right which is wrong. Keep it coming.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
being written later is critically important. The further we get away from when the movie was made, the further we get away from Lucas' own words and intention. That was added only recently, and we all know how I feel about recently added material from "sources" that had ABSOLUTLEY nothing to do with the making of the movie in question. I strongly disagree with that line of thought. So when it was put up IS vitally important. However, let's say it was before Disney even bought Lucas, or even 3 years ago. That still, and you would agree, PAILS in comparison to Lucas' own words on the matter. Those two are even in the same stratosphere. You know that, and I know that. So what that site says, in the end, has little bearing on canonicity when compared to Lucas' own words.


Not really. Lucas himself is always revamping SW for it to make more sense. In ROTJ from his notes, the script and the novel, it was clearly his intention to depict Luke being fully Trained and better than Vader.

However after the Prequels, he's now claiming Luke was only Half Trained, and not fully equipped to take on Vader.

Lucas has also revamped stuff about the prequels during the making of TCW. Heck he outright completely revamped his Clear Intention for Darth Maul to be Dead!

So you think he can't later revamp his intentions towards a scene he only made because Samuel L Jackson demanded an Awsome death for his character?

And that's just Lucas. Disney are definitely free to revamp some things.

In any case, like I keep saying, I personally think Mace Won the Saber fight. I just think there is a case to be made the other way. Especially now that we know Sidious fights with Dual Sabers (revamped by Lucas in TCW btw).



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'll have to check the novel again, but I'm sure there is a reference either there or for their vjun fight when it does say yoda was holding back. Further, even if I'm wrong and that Is never mentioned... Him trying to capture him, and not kill him, inherently implies a level of holding back. You full well know other options open up when you go for the kill as opposed to just trying to subdue somebody. Those are worlds apart really. So even then, I would be correct that Yoda was holding back to some degree, in that he wasn't going for the kill.


Dark Rendezvous is part of the Old EU and Not Canon to the movies.

Well like I already pointed out, Mace went to Arrest Palpatine. So it's the same thing. Heck Anakin defeated Dooku before killing him.

So as long as you're willing to chop off limbs if need be, there shouldn't be much of an issue.

No he couldn't you bumbling moron. Anakin could have done nothing at the point he initially walked in. He was so far away from him he could've done nothing. No, Sids also could've done very little. He was in a vulnerable position (lower ground and on his ass with no weapon in hand) You think that's a great position to defend yourself in case something goes wrong and Mace goes for the kill? Of course not you clown. That's a horrible position to be in to try and defend yourself. As tactical as you claim Sids is... he would know better than to try and bring out another saber. You keep talking about force perception, as if Mace doesn't also have that. You don't think he could react and beat to the punch, somebody on the ground who decides to go for their weapon.. ignite.. and could do all that before Mace could react? PLEASE.. That is so beyond idiotic to suggest it's silly. You can go with what is possible all you want, I choose to go with what's probable. What's most likely is, Sids won't be able to get his saber before one of the best duelist in the mythos could react. I don't buy it, and neither did Sids.

YOu keep citing this scene where Sids "let mace live" He did no such thing. This is never referenced in the movie... the scipt.. the novel... NO PLACE IS THIS EVERY MENTIONED. Again, yet again, something with no canon backing what so ever. He merely got close to Mace.. but wasn't close enough to land the killing blow. Mace was just out of his reach. Maybe you've never been in a fight before, but reach can mean you can quite make it to your opponent when throwing strikes at times. You're just out of range. Same thing here. It's like you've never seen a fight in the movies before. I could cite every action movie every made and show you scenes where the bad guy got close to killing the good... he just missed that gun shot.. he just missed that knife strike... Jesus do you even do movies? Either cite any referenced to Sids not killing Mace with his saber or STFU about your stupid theories. Nobody gives two shits what emperor Sidious thinks about the movie or his take on the movie. Literally, nobody. Either cite proof of your claim or concede you have none.

I never said he would be totally unaware, cite where I said such a thing. What I'm saying is, and what you have no answer for is, he had never ever in his life fought a Vaapad master.. Ever. Not only that, he never fought ANYBODY of the Caliber of Mace in his life. Nobody. He was ill prepared for what he was about to face. I'm not saying he wasnt' good at prep, he was. but you can't prep for what you don't know. The only way to KNOW how good somebody else is, and even himself, is to do it. He never did.

Umm no you buffoon it wouldn't. Sidious did no such extensive studying on Vaapad. There is zero evidence to back up that claim. the only thing mentioned is that he had a convo about it, nothing more. There is zero narration even alluding to him taking the time to study it and delve into it. None. So I reject your notion that he was prepped for Vaapad and was ready for it. Post proof he actively studied it and learned a lot about it. If not, you'll have to make another concession.

He would've ALREADY had his sympathy.. He was lying on the floor... disarmed... in a vulnerable position. The point you don't get is... FIRING LIGHTING AND SAYING NO YOU WILL DIE... Doesn't make you look weaker at all. In fact, it gives the opposite impression. It would do a disservice to him to even try that. Plus the evidence points to something very different... Once Mace says he's going to arrest him and he's going to stand trial and his time is over.. HE VISIBLY gets pissed and goes ... No... No.... YOU WILL DIE!!! yet according to you, that was all for sure and he had already let the saber get kicked from his hand. I mean the depths you go to try and save face is hilarious. The evidence suggest it is just as we saw.. The emperor didn't want his reign to end.. was pissed off.. and tried to kill Mace. Do you know the best proof to back up his facial expressions when mace tells him this?? Guess... He even confirms his facial expression with not only words but actions... You will die... followed by powerful force lighting.

Wut??? That isn't how the fight went at all.... He actively increased his speed via the force INTIALLY when he fought Mace. That is why Mace had to counter that by breaking the window to slow him down. So I ask again, why ramp up your speed if you're trying to throw a fight. Does a boxer who's throwing a fight... tyr and look the best he's ever looked and go for the KO? Of course not... yet you expect me to believe Sids increased his speed and was throwing deadly saber strikes and force pushes... because he wanted to throw the fight? What a Moronivich you are

Ahhh the old it's in the book not the movie. Sorry bud, that excuse doesn't fly here. Lucas carefully went over every section of that book so that it meshed with his interpretation of the movie. he added stuff, deleted stuff.. it was a long process. So how do you throw a fight... when you actively try and throw somebody out the window? Does that make sense to you? Only a moron would think it does. Wut?? Window was already open.. WTF are your talking about now. It doesn't imply the window is open or not. Do you think the only way to throw somebody out the window is if it's open? You can't be this stupid.. can you? It doesn't imply a thing or contradict a thing. The only thing it contradicts is Sids throwing the fight. If Lucas has stover explicitly state Sids tried to force push Mace out the window.. Does that not contradict him trying to throw the fight?

Further damning proof.. Why illustrate HOW mace beat sids... Breaking the window.. rain... slowing the emperor force speed up down... shatterpoint... Why EXPLAIN exactly how he won IF HE WAS THROWING THE FIGHT THE ENTIRE TIME? You would do no such thing. Yet they did, and you still go, well he was throwing the fight...

The ownage is reaching epic levels here.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The ownage is reaching epic levels here.

Indeed it is.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No he couldn't you bumbling moron. Anakin could have done nothing at the point he initially walked in. He was so far away from him he could've done nothing. No, Sids also could've done very little. He was in a vulnerable position (lower ground and on his ass with no weapon in hand) You think that's a great position to defend yourself in case something goes wrong and Mace goes for the kill? Of course not you clown. That's a horrible position to be in to try and defend yourself. As tactical as you claim Sids is... he would know better than to try and bring out another saber. You keep talking about force perception, as if Mace doesn't also have that. You don't think he could react and beat to the punch, somebody on the ground who decides to go for their weapon.. ignite.. and could do all that before Mace could react? PLEASE.. That is so beyond idiotic to suggest it's silly. You can go with what is possible all you want, I choose to go with what's probable. What's most likely is, Sids won't be able to get his saber before one of the best duelist in the mythos could react. I don't buy it, and neither did Sids.

YOu keep citing this scene where Sids "let mace live" He did no such thing. This is never referenced in the movie... the scipt.. the novel... NO PLACE IS THIS EVERY MENTIONED. Again, yet again, something with no canon backing what so ever. He merely got close to Mace.. but wasn't close enough to land the killing blow. Mace was just out of his reach. Maybe you've never been in a fight before, but reach can mean you can quite make it to your opponent when throwing strikes at times. You're just out of range. Same thing here. It's like you've never seen a fight in the movies before. I could cite every action movie every made and show you scenes where the bad guy got close to killing the good... he just missed that gun shot.. he just missed that knife strike... Jesus do you even do movies? Either cite any referenced to Sids not killing Mace with his saber or STFU about your stupid theories. Nobody gives two shits what emperor Sidious thinks about the movie or his take on the movie. Literally, nobody. Either cite proof of your claim or concede you have none.

I never said he would be totally unaware, cite where I said such a thing. What I'm saying is, and what you have no answer for is, he had never ever in his life fought a Vaapad master.. Ever. Not only that, he never fought ANYBODY of the Caliber of Mace in his life. Nobody. He was ill prepared for what he was about to face. I'm not saying he wasnt' good at prep, he was. but you can't prep for what you don't know. The only way to KNOW how good somebody else is, and even himself, is to do it. He never did.

Umm no you buffoon it wouldn't. Sidious did no such extensive studying on Vaapad. There is zero evidence to back up that claim. the only thing mentioned is that he had a convo about it, nothing more. There is zero narration even alluding to him taking the time to study it and delve into it. None. So I reject your notion that he was prepped for Vaapad and was ready for it. Post proof he actively studied it and learned a lot about it. If not, you'll have to make another concession.

He would've ALREADY had his sympathy.. He was lying on the floor... disarmed... in a vulnerable position. The point you don't get is... FIRING LIGHTING AND SAYING NO YOU WILL DIE... Doesn't make you look weaker at all. In fact, it gives the opposite impression. It would do a disservice to him to even try that. Plus the evidence points to something very different... Once Mace says he's going to arrest him and he's going to stand trial and his time is over.. HE VISIBLY gets pissed and goes ... No... No.... YOU WILL DIE!!! yet according to you, that was all for sure and he had already let the saber get kicked from his hand. I mean the depths you go to try and save face is hilarious. The evidence suggest it is just as we saw.. The emperor didn't want his reign to end.. was pissed off.. and tried to kill Mace. Do you know the best proof to back up his facial expressions when mace tells him this?? Guess... He even confirms his facial expression with not only words but actions... You will die... followed by powerful force lighting.

Wut??? That isn't how the fight went at all.... He actively increased his speed via the force INTIALLY when he fought Mace. That is why Mace had to counter that by breaking the window to slow him down. So I ask again, why ramp up your speed if you're trying to throw a fight. Does a boxer who's throwing a fight... tyr and look the best he's ever looked and go for the KO? Of course not... yet you expect me to believe Sids increased his speed and was throwing deadly saber strikes and force pushes... because he wanted to throw the fight? What a Moronivich you are

Ahhh the old it's in the book not the movie. Sorry bud, that excuse doesn't fly here. Lucas carefully went over every section of that book so that it meshed with his interpretation of the movie. he added stuff, deleted stuff.. it was a long process. So how do you throw a fight... when you actively try and throw somebody out the window? Does that make sense to you? Only a moron would think it does. Wut?? Window was already open.. WTF are your talking about now. It doesn't imply the window is open or not. Do you think the only way to throw somebody out the window is if it's open? You can't be this stupid.. can you? It doesn't imply a thing or contradict a thing. The only thing it contradicts is Sids throwing the fight. If Lucas has stover explicitly state Sids tried to force push Mace out the window.. Does that not contradict him trying to throw the fight?

Further damning proof.. Why illustrate HOW mace beat sids... Breaking the window.. rain... slowing the emperor force speed up down... shatterpoint... Why EXPLAIN exactly how he won IF HE WAS THROWING THE FIGHT THE ENTIRE TIME? You would do no such thing. Yet they did, and you still go, well he was throwing the fight...

The ownage is reaching epic levels here.

Force speed. Jedi and Sith have used it cover great Distances in seconds. May I remind you of TPM where Qui Gon and Obi run from those droids. Anakin is much more powerful than they are, so he could defintlly run that fast if not faster, and run mace through, or use a force push. BS on Sidious not white able to do anything. It's called Force lightning. He sure was bending his saber being in "vulnerable" position.

https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:08 Sidious has his blade directly at Windu's chest, an inch or 2 away and just stays there. Keep in mind Sidious is much faster than Mace, so he could have ran him through at this point, but didn't. I'm starting to think that you can't think for yourself. Everything has to be said for you. If someone showed you a picture, no, a video, an actual recording, of the space shuttle going to the moon, but no one says anything, do you automatically say it's not mentioned, referenced, or shown, all because you didn't hear someone confirm it, but it's right there in your freakin face. Or if the teacher tells you how to do a certain problem. She shows you how to add, she ask you to add 5+2. She ask you what you get and you get 7. And she shows you a video of someone doing it and you see 7, but she never says it's right or wrong, do you doubt because she never says it? No you just go with it because you've seen her tell you how to add, and a video.

I never said he had in depth knowledge of Vaapad. I said he and an epoverall view. Now while he doesn't know the specifics of the style, he sure knwis a bout it, and some of its very important practices basically, a nice overall view.

There was doubt in Anakins mind. He wanted to make sure there was no doubt. By doing that, he puts Anakin in a position that he has to choose Sidious, if he wants to save his wife, and also after getting shocked Sidious put himself in the perfect light of a scarred person,Megan though, he was faking it as confirmed by Lucas. Oh and guess what wasn't he bending his lightsaber back toward mace, almost going to kill him p, but stopped as we have both agreed. So that's 2x that Sidious has let mace comeback.

That makes no sense. Sidious is already faster than Windu so why woudl he actually need to ramp up his speed first. His speed naturally was better than Mace so Mace ramped up hai speed with Vaapad and Sidious then adjusted to that. Do I need to simplify it for you. Sidious>Mace. Mace use Vaaapad to amp up speed. Sidious then ramps up speed to keep up with Mace, so they EQUALS.

Or do you mean that excuse doesn't fly with you? Lucas has made it pretty clear the movies are the main source of canon, so has Disney. That means Movies>Books. The books are canon where they align with the movie. So that means Mace getting force pushed out of a window is just what the author put in. Now what Lucas had planned. In fact the window is still up when we get there for the second part, and they aren't near a wall, but goigm to the window and break the window with their sabers. No one gets pushed.

Books describe how things happen all the time. Do you not read much. The author puts emphasis on what is going through Mace's head. The novel also states that Windu used Shatterpoint based off of Sidious' fear, even though he didn't have one. It was Anakins fear. Also Windu felt Anakins presence before Anakin got to the building so that woudl also mean that Sidious woudl too.

Shame. You get beat almost as bad as Quan does.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2


https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:08 Sidious has his blade directly at Windu's chest, an inch or 2 away and just stays there. Keep in mind Sidious is much faster than Mace, so he could have ran him through at this point, but didn't.


Honestly that doesn't mean much. Ventress had Kenobi with her blade a couple of inches from his neck here from 1:37-1:42 yet she failed to kill him, or even cut him:

?v=cNiB1tk0wvo

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Force speed. Jedi and Sith have used it cover great Distances in seconds. May I remind you of TPM where Qui Gon and Obi run from those droids. Anakin is much more powerful than they are, so he could defintlly run that fast if not faster, and run mace through, or use a force push. BS on Sidious not white able to do anything. It's called Force lightning. He sure was bending his saber being in "vulnerable" position.

https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 1:06-1:08 Sidious has his blade directly at Windu's chest, an inch or 2 away and just stays there. Keep in mind Sidious is much faster than Mace, so he could have ran him through at this point, but didn't. I'm starting to think that you can't think for yourself. Everything has to be said for you. If someone showed you a picture, no, a video, an actual recording, of the space shuttle going to the moon, but no one says anything, do you automatically say it's not mentioned, referenced, or shown, all because you didn't hear someone confirm it, but it's right there in your freakin face. Or if the teacher tells you how to do a certain problem. She shows you how to add, she ask you to add 5+2. She ask you what you get and you get 7. And she shows you a video of someone doing it and you see 7, but she never says it's right or wrong, do you doubt because she never says it? No you just go with it because you've seen her tell you how to add, and a video.

I never said he had in depth knowledge of Vaapad. I said he and an epoverall view. Now while he doesn't know the specifics of the style, he sure knwis a bout it, and some of its very important practices basically, a nice overall view.

There was doubt in Anakins mind. He wanted to make sure there was no doubt. By doing that, he puts Anakin in a position that he has to choose Sidious, if he wants to save his wife, and also after getting shocked Sidious put himself in the perfect light of a scarred person,Megan though, he was faking it as confirmed by Lucas. Oh and guess what wasn't he bending his lightsaber back toward mace, almost going to kill him p, but stopped as we have both agreed. So that's 2x that Sidious has let mace comeback.

That makes no sense. Sidious is already faster than Windu so why woudl he actually need to ramp up his speed first. His speed naturally was better than Mace so Mace ramped up hai speed with Vaapad and Sidious then adjusted to that. Do I need to simplify it for you. Sidious>Mace. Mace use Vaaapad to amp up speed. Sidious then ramps up speed to keep up with Mace, so they EQUALS.

Or do you mean that excuse doesn't fly with you? Lucas has made it pretty clear the movies are the main source of canon, so has Disney. That means Movies>Books. The books are canon where they align with the movie. So that means Mace getting force pushed out of a window is just what the author put in. Now what Lucas had planned. In fact the window is still up when we get there for the second part, and they aren't near a wall, but goigm to the window and break the window with their sabers. No one gets pushed.

Books describe how things happen all the time. Do you not read much. The author puts emphasis on what is going through Mace's head. The novel also states that Windu used Shatterpoint based off of Sidious' fear, even though he didn't have one. It was Anakins fear. Also Windu felt Anakins presence before Anakin got to the building so that woudl also mean that Sidious woudl too.

Shame. You get beat almost as bad as Quan does.

More unsubstantiated nonsense from you, it gets old having to correct you over and over.

MORON, Mace is GREATER than Anakin... He was SO FAST that Anakin couldn't even PERCEIVE him it was so fast. Yet somehow, he's going to cover that ground.. and stop Mace before Mace can react... even when his blade is already a foot away from Sids? Do you honestly believe that? That is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say, and you've said some dumb stuff let me tell you. The fact is, there is absolutely NO WAY for him to cover that distance faster could cover the distance of a foot. Anakin is not faster than Mace, nor better or more skilled. It's beyond idiotic to think he could've done a thing to Mace when he first walked in, then again, it's you.

Okay so you don't watch any movie then... Okay why didn't you just say so... We could've ended this discussion long ago. I'll ask a simple question.. Is it not routine for the good guy to almost get killed by the bad guys in an action movie? Is that not routine? Answer that question honestly, and then come back to me with ... Sids could've killed him with a straight face. It's simply ludicrous. There is ZERO narration ANYWHERE stating he could've killed him.

What's worse and even more damming about the above. If there was narration about sids throwing the fight... that would've been the PERFECT place to include that little tid bit... yet NOTHING. You even admit they go into great detail in the book about what people are thinking... Yet, the whole major plot point you say exists.. is NEVER EVER NOT ONCE MENTION IN THE SCRIPT.. the BOOK or the MOVIE. Seems like this point where Sids could've killed Mace according to you, would've been an ideal place to put such narration... Guess what.. they put NOTHING there. Case closed.

Who cares if he has knowledge of it, that means absolutely nothing. My point still stands, he has NO EVIDENCE to know how good mace is and what he'd be able to block or not block or counter or not counter. NONE. Concession accepted

he stopped because HIS FACE WAS GETTING FRIED AND HE WAS GETTING HIS LIGHTING SHOVED BACK IN HIS FACE. He was VISIBLY in pain your moron. That wasn't for sure, it was being reflected back at him. God damn you're dumb. He stopped because he realized it wasn't working and he had to try a different approach. So he stopped and pretend to be void of energy, nothing more. He didnt' stop because he could've killed him but choose to let him live.

You fail to realize this wasn't the only opportunity to turn Anakin. He still had the trump card of Padame... At any point he could use that to lure him to the darkside. It didnt' have to be done right then, it would've happened eventually. There's zero proof or narration stating it needed to happen then. You keep insisting he did, with nothing to back it up. He simply got his ass kicked and went for plan b... no amount of whining can change that.

You're too stupid to even continue the discussion at this point. You keep saying it contradicts the movie. It contradicts nothing. THE WINDOW DOESN'T HAVE TO BE OPEN FOR HIM TO FORCE PUSH HIM OUT. Are you honestly this dumb or just acting this dumb? It's a serious question. Do you honestly think the only way to push someone out the window is if its open? Are you 5? I mean serious, are you? The isn't a contradiction there at all, you want there to be, because that along with everything else crushes your argument. You don't try and force push somebody out the window you're trying to lose to. Answer the question.... do you try and force push someone out the window you're trying to lose 2? Simple question. If you refuse to answer I'll only respond with this question over and over till you do.

What??? Lucas didn't see that part or go over the book??/ It was just thrown in by Stover??? WTF are you talking about. Post proof of that Lucas didn't go over this part of the book. Lucas explicitly has said he went over the book over and over and edited it. He had the final say on EVERYTHING in the book. Now either post proof he didn't read this part and thus didn't know it was there or STFU about it.

Owned again kid.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Honestly that doesn't mean much. Ventress had Kenobi with her blade a couple of inches from his neck here from 1:37-1:42 yet she failed to kill him, or even cut him:

?v=cNiB1tk0wvo

I think he's like 10 or 11 honestly. It's like he's never seen a movie in his life. Literally, almost every single action movie ever made has the good guy close to dying. Like literally every one. He acts like this is the first time he's seen such a scene. It's hilarious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Honestly that doesn't mean much. Ventress had Kenobi with her blade a couple of inches from his neck here from 1:37-1:42 yet she failed to kill him, or even cut him:

?v=cNiB1tk0wvo

Thing is though he never tried. He never even budged the whole time is what I'm saying.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think he's like 10 or 11 honestly. It's like he's never seen a movie in his life. Literally, almost every single action movie ever made has the good guy close to dying. Like literally every one. He acts like this is the first time he's seen such a scene. It's hilarious

Well in terms of age you're actually warm. From the highest number your 3 years low.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Mace is GREATER than Anakin...


Probably, but not by much tbh.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He was SO FAST that Anakin couldn't even PERCEIVE him it was so fast.


Not Canon. Because Anakin never witnessed the fight.

Sounds about right, and as I suspected. Try watching more action movies. You'll notice a consistent theme in them....

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Probably, but not by much tbh.





Not Canon. Because Anakin never witnessed the fight.

Incorrect, this is very much canon to Lucas' view of the fight. As you know, he careful went over every line of the book. Adding stuff, taking stuff out, he was the final authority. As you are also aware, Lucas' views on the movies and scenes in question are exponentially worth more than Disney saying they don't like it anymore. It's that simple.

I agree, he's not that much better, but he's better none the less. The point is, sidious is claiming Anakin could move so fast that he could reach Mace (from his position in the door) before Mace could strike down Sids... with his sword a foot away. I reject such a notion that Anakin is that fast much faster than Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
More unsubstantiated nonsense from you, it gets old having to correct you over and over.

MORON, Mace is GREATER than Anakin... He was SO FAST that Anakin couldn't even PERCEIVE him it was so fast. Yet somehow, he's going to cover that ground.. and stop Mace before Mace can react... even when his blade is already a foot away from Sids? Do you honestly believe that? That is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say, and you've said some dumb stuff let me tell you. The fact is, there is absolutely NO WAY for him to cover that distance faster could cover the distance of a foot. Anakin is not faster than Mace, nor better or more skilled. It's beyond idiotic to think he could've done a thing to Mace when he first walked in, then again, it's you.

Okay so you don't watch any movie then... Okay why didn't you just say so... We could've ended this discussion long ago. I'll ask a simple question.. Is it not routine for the good guy to almost get killed by the bad guys in an action movie? Is that not routine? Answer that question honestly, and then come back to me with ... Sids could've killed him with a straight face. It's simply ludicrous. There is ZERO narration ANYWHERE stating he could've killed him.

What's worse and even more damming about the above. If there was narration about sids throwing the fight... that would've been the PERFECT place to include that little tid bit... yet NOTHING. You even admit they go into great detail in the book about what people are thinking... Yet, the whole major plot point you say exists.. is NEVER EVER NOT ONCE MENTION IN THE SCRIPT.. the BOOK or the MOVIE. Seems like this point where Sids could've killed Mace according to you, would've been an ideal place to put such narration... Guess what.. they put NOTHING there. Case closed.

Who cares if he has knowledge of it, that means absolutely nothing. My point still stands, he has NO EVIDENCE to know how good mace is and what he'd be able to block or not block or counter or not counter. NONE. Concession accepted

he stopped because HIS FACE WAS GETTING FRIED AND HE WAS GETTING HIS LIGHTING SHOVED BACK IN HIS FACE. He was VISIBLY in pain your moron. That wasn't for sure, it was being reflected back at him. God damn you're dumb. He stopped because he realized it wasn't working and he had to try a different approach. So he stopped and pretend to be void of energy, nothing more. He didnt' stop because he could've killed him but choose to let him live.

You fail to realize this wasn't the only opportunity to turn Anakin. He still had the trump card of Padame... At any point he could use that to lure him to the darkside. It didnt' have to be done right then, it would've happened eventually. There's zero proof or narration stating it needed to happen then. You keep insisting he did, with nothing to back it up. He simply got his ass kicked and went for


You're telling me. Having to answer all these idiotic questions you put in my face does get tiresome.

Well actually according to the stunt coordinator Anakin is a 9, so I wouldn'tsay greater, since Dooku and Windu are equals and Anakin beat Dooku. Again Aankin didn't see them fight so he couldn't perceive anything as according to the movie which beats the books. You make that sound like that's something Mace could replicate on a everyday basis. You yourself have said you concede that Mace had a lot of factors that woudlnt be replicated again. If Windu fights Anakin and he gets that same amp again call me, but until then leave. So now mace can just pull that speed out of his butt. He's not fighting Sidious so he's not reflecting the dark energy required to move that fast. How about you actually think first before you post.

Ohhhh noo. So now you give the excuse that's how movies normally go? BS. That doesn't matter. That just shows Sidious let him go. Just concede instead of being a brick wall. Trust me I've seen plenty of movies that the hero almost dies before a big moment, but that's not a good excuse to bring in. If that's the case this shouldn't even be a discussion, since the only reason mace lasted that long was because Samuel L Jackson wanted a good death, not just a lame stabbed in the back death, he wanted it to be dramatic and spectacular, as stated by Lucas in the commentary. You don't need commentary when the freakin film shows that to you.

Why woudl they need to put something you can obviously see onscreen in a commentary? Now Lucas needs to explain every little thing now? This only further strengthens my point because, we see Sidious could have killed Widnu there, but didn't, but Lucas says this scen always started with Mace overpowering Palpatine, which shows he's jaunt describing what we see, not settling a debate. Any idiot can go and watch ROTS and see that Sidious didn't take the killing blow when he had the chance. Apparently you are worse than an idiot.

Again you are wrong. You say Sidious has no idea how good mace is. He has spent 13 years around the Jedi, has spent several years practicing the blade, and had Dooku. All of which were connected to Windu and lightsaber combat. Sidiosu woudl know that Windu is second one to Yoda who has plenty of feats to his name, knows about Vaapad and that Mace created it. Creating it is not an easy deal, and Sidious knows this. He also had Dolku who could have spoken very highly of Mace, or stated his skill. So again you're wrong about Sidious not knowing how skilled Sidious is. He had an idea, and well solidly built one.

Again, Lucas says he was faking weakeness, and as seen in the movie he was still shooting and his face had gotten as fired as it was going to get. Also, not something trying to debate just throwing it out there, Sidious could have had a Sith mask, the novel sort of implies this, but feel free to take it or leave it doesn't matter. Point is, that wouldn't matter. Sidious faked all of that, and goes from being all damaged to unlimited power in seconds. Incredibly short time to recover from torrents of force lightning. Wasn't working?!?! What do you call sending his blade back at him and almost kilometers him? I call that working you moron. You call me dumb, look at your post. They make pieces of shot look like einsteins.

What does of matter of that was his only time or not. That was the time he choose, or the time, fate had placed. Either way it doesn't matter. Now if you're saying he could have made another time, I'm willing to agree, but why wait. No need in waiting. Did you not hear the line of "I have the power to save the one you love". Sidious knew that Padme was vital and used her to biggest extent. Shame you do. Understand this.


I'm the stupid one. I'm not the one trying to say the books take place over the movies. I've taken every argument you've thrown, and crushed it head on. Answered every question, without backing down. If anything you're the stupid one who now falls back on insults because you've lost. Now I'm going to ask you this question. Did I ever say a window had to be open to push someone through it? Now I say this because I have actually been pushed fairly hard against Windows and other glasses frames and I did not fall through it. I'm not saying my instance and this instance compare, but just a little FYI. Also the movie never really shows that instance, while its possible it could ahve happened offscreen it's highly doubtful and pretty much speculation to say that it happened. Now if the books and the movies lined up perfectly then I would take your argument, but here they don't, and I'm still confused on how you don't understand the movies>novels.

So now you're saying that Lucas should look for every tiny little detail? Is that what you're saying. Nothing is ever going to be the exact same. Movies and books see this the most. Whether an movie or book adaptation is made, the author or director will make slight differences to the stories. Have you not read a single book or seen a single movie. If you did you woudl understand this. The Book woudl put more detail into its pages, while the movie would make things more fit for a cinematic screen. So Lucas can read the story and approve it, but the movies are top, the book isn't. If it doesn't align with the movie than its not canon. Once again, you're telling me that we have 2 separate universe. One where Anakin walks in when they aren't fighting, and one where they walk in where they are fighting. You can't fo with both, you go with the one which and the highest version of canon, and that is the movies. How many times must k expa,in this to you. So I ask you this question. Are you dumb, or are you pretending. I'm dead serious if i have to expa,in this simple canon hierarchy to you. Are you 3? How old are you? It doesn't freakin matter of he went over the book. He's speciffacly said that the movies are the highest form of canon, so has Disney. That means if the movies has one thing and the book has something different then the movie wins everytime. You dumbass that's not hard to figure out. When have I ever said he never looked over the book?

How many times, must I own you.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Probably, but not by much tbh.





Not Canon. Because Anakin never witnessed the fight.

Thank you. Kurupt doesn't seem to understand this. Movies>Books

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sounds about right, and as I suspected. Try watching more action movies. You'll notice a consistent theme in them....

Again that's a lame excuse. If you use that, I have the right to use why Mace lasted that long in the first place. Samuel L Jackson just didn't want to go down that fast. Oh and while we are at it watch the movie adaptations of certain books and read the book adaption of a movie and you'll notice that they aren't 100% the same.

kurupt thanosi:

First off, you must be a real chore to deal with in real life. you think calling people a moron over and over will make your argument stronger or something?

Second, to address your argument about Sidious using his lightning but not trying to kill Mace, the logic s very simple:

In order to turn Anakin on the spot it had to be a do or die choice; if Palpatine dies, the secret to save Padme dies with him, up until the point of lightning usage, Mace only wanted to arrest the Chancellor, he says it when the 4 Jedi show up in his chamber and again when he has him at sword point. That tactic wouldn't work for Sidous' plan so he hit him with the lightning so that Mace was left with no choice but to kill the Emperor, thus forcing Anakins hand...watch the movie bud its all there, if you care to pay attention that is....

^ Yeah the Lightning was required to force Anakin to choose. Palpatine didn't fear going to prison. He would have got out as Windu even states later: "He controls the Senate and the Courts"



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect, this is very much canon to Lucas' view of the fight. As you know, he careful went over every line of the book. Adding stuff, taking stuff out, he was the final authority. As you are also aware, Lucas' views on the movies and scenes in question are exponentially worth more than Disney saying they don't like it anymore. It's that simple.

I agree, he's not that much better, but he's better none the less. The point is, sidious is claiming Anakin could move so fast that he could reach Mace (from his position in the door) before Mace could strike down Sids... with his sword a foot away. I reject such a notion that Anakin is that fast much faster than Mace.


No not necessarily. Because if it never happened in the film them it's equivalent to a deleted scene. And deleted scenes get contradicted all the time. No point going on about what Lucas "thinks", because we don't know what he thinks, and he contradicts his own words constantly, let alone his thoughts. All we know is that scene isn't canon. And we also know the idea that Anakin couldn't even react to Sidious's or Mace's movements is kind of ludicrous given he beat Dooku who fended off Yoda.

You're right Anakin's not faster than Mace. In fact Dooku actually seems slightly faster than Anakin in their fights, and Mace and Dooku are probably similar in regards to speed and skill.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
More unsubstantiated nonsense from you, it gets old having to correct you over and over.

MORON, Mace is GREATER than Anakin... He was SO FAST that Anakin couldn't even PERCEIVE him it was so fast. Yet somehow, he's going to cover that ground.. and stop Mace before Mace can react... even when his blade is already a foot away from Sids? Do you honestly believe that? That is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say, and you've said some dumb stuff let me tell you. The fact is, there is absolutely NO WAY for him to cover that distance faster could cover the distance of a foot. Anakin is not faster than Mace, nor better or more skilled. It's beyond idiotic to think he could've done a thing to Mace when he first walked in, then again, it's you.

Okay so you don't watch any movie then... Okay why didn't you just say so... We could've ended this discussion long ago. I'll ask a simple question.. Is it not routine for the good guy to almost get killed by the bad guys in an action movie? Is that not routine? Answer that question honestly, and then come back to me with ... Sids could've killed him with a straight face. It's simply ludicrous. There is ZERO narration ANYWHERE stating he could've killed him.

What's worse and even more damming about the above. If there was narration about sids throwing the fight... that would've been the PERFECT place to include that little tid bit... yet NOTHING. You even admit they go into great detail in the book about what people are thinking... Yet, the whole major plot point you say exists.. is NEVER EVER NOT ONCE MENTION IN THE SCRIPT.. the BOOK or the MOVIE. Seems like this point where Sids could've killed Mace according to you, would've been an ideal place to put such narration... Guess what.. they put NOTHING there. Case closed.

Who cares if he has knowledge of it, that means absolutely nothing. My point still stands, he has NO EVIDENCE to know how good mace is and what he'd be able to block or not block or counter or not counter. NONE. Concession accepted

he stopped because HIS FACE WAS GETTING FRIED AND HE WAS GETTING HIS LIGHTING SHOVED BACK IN HIS FACE. He was VISIBLY in pain your moron. That wasn't for sure, it was being reflected back at him. God damn you're dumb. He stopped because he realized it wasn't working and he had to try a different approach. So he stopped and pretend to be void of energy, nothing more. He didnt' stop because he could've killed him but choose to let him live.

You fail to realize this wasn't the only opportunity to turn Anakin. He still had the trump card of Padame... At any point he could use that to lure him to the darkside. It didnt' have to be done right then, it would've happened eventually. There's zero proof or narration stating it needed to happen then. You keep insisting he did, with nothing to back it up. He simply got his ass kicked and went for


You're telling me. Having to answer all these idiotic questions you put in my face does get tiresome.

Well actually according to the stunt coordinator Anakin is a 9, so I wouldn'tsay greater, since Dooku and Windu are equals and Anakin beat Dooku. Again Aankin didn't see them fight so he couldn't perceive anything as according to the movie which beats the books. You make that sound like that's something Mace could replicate on a everyday basis. You yourself have said you concede that Mace had a lot of factors that woudlnt be replicated again. If Windu fights Anakin and he gets that same amp again call me, but until then leave. So now mace can just pull that speed out of his butt. He's not fighting Sidious so he's not reflecting the dark energy required to move that fast. How about you actually think first before you post.

Ohhhh noo. So now you give the excuse that's how movies normally go? BS. That doesn't matter. That just shows Sidious let him go. Just concede instead of being a brick wall. Trust me I've seen plenty of movies that the hero almost dies before a big moment, but that's not a good excuse to bring in. If that's the case this shouldn't even be a discussion, since the only reason mace lasted that long was because Samuel L Jackson wanted a good death, not just a lame stabbed in the back death, he wanted it to be dramatic and spectacular, as stated by Lucas in the commentary. You don't need commentary when the freakin film shows that to you.

Why woudl they need to put something you can obviously see onscreen in a commentary? Now Lucas needs to explain every little thing now? This only further strengthens my point because, we see Sidious could have killed Widnu there, but didn't, but Lucas says this scen always started with Mace overpowering Palpatine, which shows he's jaunt describing what we see, not settling a debate. Any idiot can go and watch ROTS and see that Sidious didn't take the killing blow when he had the chance. Apparently you are worse than an idiot.

Again you are wrong. You say Sidious has no idea how good mace is. He has spent 13 years around the Jedi, has spent several years practicing the blade, and had Dooku. All of which were connected to Windu and lightsaber combat. Sidiosu woudl know that Windu is second one to Yoda who has plenty of feats to his name, knows about Vaapad and that Mace created it. Creating it is not an easy deal, and Sidious knows this. He also had Dolku who could have spoken very highly of Mace, or stated his skill. So again you're wrong about Sidious not knowing how skilled Sidious is. He had an idea, and well solidly built one.

Again, Lucas says he was faking weakeness, and as seen in the movie he was still shooting and his face had gotten as fired as it was going to get. Also, not something trying to debate just throwing it out there, Sidious could have had a Sith mask, the novel sort of implies this, but feel free to take it or leave it doesn't matter. Point is, that wouldn't matter. Sidious faked all of that, and goes from being all damaged to unlimited power in seconds. Incredibly short time to recover from torrents of force lightning. Wasn't working?!?! What do you call sending his blade back at him and almost kilometers him? I call that working you moron. You call me dumb, look at your post. They make pieces of shot look like einsteins.

What does of matter of that was his only time or not. That was the time he choose, or the time, fate had placed. Either way it doesn't matter. Now if you're saying he could have made another time, I'm willing to agree, but why wait. No need in waiting. Did you not hear the line of "I have the power to save the one you love". Sidious knew that Padme was vital and used her to biggest extent. Shame you do. Understand this.


I'm the stupid one. I'm not the one trying to say the books take place over the movies. I've taken every argument you've thrown, and crushed it head on. Answered every question, without backing down. If anything you're the stupid one who now falls back on insults because you've lost. Now I'm going to ask you this question. Did I ever say a window had to be open to push someone through it? Now I say this because I have actually been pushed fairly hard against Windows and other glasses frames and I did not fall through it. I'm not saying my instance and this instance compare, but just a little FYI. Also the movie never really shows that instance, while its possible it could ahve happened offscreen it's highly doubtful and pretty much speculation to say that it happened. Now if the books and the movies lined up perfectly then I would take your argument, but here they don't, and I'm still confused on how you don't understand the movies>novels.

So now you're saying that Lucas should look for every tiny little detail? Is that what you're saying. Nothing is ever going to be the exact same. Movies and books see this the most. Whether an movie or book adaptation is made, the author or director will make slight differences to the stories. Have you not read a single book or seen a single movie. If you did you woudl understand this. The Book woudl put more detail into its pages, while the movie would make things more fit for a cinematic screen. So Lucas can read the story and approve it, but the movies are top, the book isn't. If it doesn't align with the movie than its not canon. Once again, you're telling me that we have 2 separate universe. One where Anakin walks in when they aren't fighting, and one where they walk in where they are fighting. You can't fo with both, you go with the one which and the highest version of canon, and that is the movies. How many times must k expa,in this to you. So I ask you this question. Are you dumb, or are you pretending. I'm dead serious if i have to expa,in this simple canon hierarchy to you. Are you 3? How old are you? It doesn't freakin matter of he went over the book. He's speciffacly said that the movies are the highest form of canon, so has Disney. That means if the movies has one thing and the book has something different then the movie wins everytime. You dumbass that's not hard to figure out. When have I ever said he never looked over the book?

How many times, must I own you.

You literally posted nothing of substance, like nothing. It's almost getting ridiculous now how you'll discount canon evidence for your theory. I have neither the time nor patience for people that retarded and illogical. I'll just ask one further question to see how you'll answer...

Would it not be correct that Lucas' intention when the movie was made... when the book was written... that Mace beats Sids. Do you agree with that? I don't care if you believe things change, and he later changed his mind, I'm only interested if you agree Lucas' original intent was the Mace winning?

Originally posted by relentless1
kurupt thanosi:

First off, you must be a real chore to deal with in real life. you think calling people a moron over and over will make your argument stronger or something?

Second, to address your argument about Sidious using his lightning but not trying to kill Mace, the logic s very simple:

In order to turn Anakin on the spot it had to be a do or die choice; if Palpatine dies, the secret to save Padme dies with him, up until the point of lightning usage, Mace only wanted to arrest the Chancellor, he says it when the 4 Jedi show up in his chamber and again when he has him at sword point. That tactic wouldn't work for Sidous' plan so he hit him with the lightning so that Mace was left with no choice but to kill the Emperor, thus forcing Anakins hand...watch the movie bud its all there, if you care to pay attention that is....

None of that was ever even commented on IN ANY PLACE. The novel.. the script... the movie.. nothing. The book went into GREAT detail to talk about people's thoughts and fears and plans. Yet, they never, not once decided to share with the audience that the entire fight was a rouse... That makes sense to you? Surely, you don't believe that. That wasn't the only opportunity to turn Anakin, why do people keep insisting on this point. It wasn't. He wasn't firing the lighting for show. He was VISIBLY upset and pissed. If according to you this was all some big rouse and a fake... Sids likely would be laughing or grinning.. knowing this is going as he planned. Instead he was visibly pissed Mace said his reign was over... then fires lighting. We've seen sidious (even with Yoda laughing and grinning... with Maul and Savage... Other times he's pissed and mad) The reality is.. he was pissed and fired lighting.. we can VISIBLY see all these things. For your theory there isn't ONE SHRED of evidence to back up the claim that the lighting was all show. Not a line in any place backing up your claim. I have the highest form of canon backing up mine with words and actions

Let me ask you this, if we know Lucas' careful made edits to the book and took stuff out and put stuff in. It was a long process. So why would he leave a line in the book that:

1. Sids attacked Windu with all his dark fury/might?
2. Why would he have Sids trying and force push Mace out the window, which windu was BARELY able to counter. Why would he put that in there is Sids was trying to throw the fight the entire time?
3. Why would the book go into great detail about how Mace won... Breaking the window so the floor was wet... thus slowing down Sids..It even talks about how Mace used shatterpoint to figure out the way to beat Sids (by slowing him down). Why would it mention all of this if their intention was to write a fight where Sids was faking the whole time.

Answer the above and truly ask yourself if that makes logical sense. Do you actually believe, considering the above, that their intention was to show Sids throwing the entire fight? When you add the above to Lucas' own commentary, where he literally, point blank says "Mace overcame Sids" Why would he say that if the entire fight was a fake? Why would he just say, and so easily, Sids faked the right.. he let mace win. Yet, he never did, ever, nor did he add that into the book. Don't you think that makes little sense if that was his intent?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah the Lightning was required to force Anakin to choose. Palpatine didn't fear going to prison. He would have got out as Windu even states later: "He controls the Senate and the Courts"






No not necessarily. Because if it never happened in the film them it's equivalent to a deleted scene. And deleted scenes get contradicted all the time. No point going on about what Lucas "thinks", because we don't know what he thinks, and he contradicts his own words constantly, let alone his thoughts. All we know is that scene isn't canon. And we also know the idea that Anakin couldn't even react to Sidious's or Mace's movements is kind of ludicrous given he beat Dooku who fended off Yoda.

You're right Anakin's not faster than Mace. In fact Dooku actually seems slightly faster than Anakin in their fights, and Mace and Dooku are probably similar in regards to speed and skill.

We most certainly DO know what he thinks. He outright stated Mace overcame Sids. We all know what Lucas' intent was when the book and movie were made. He made it crystal clear to us all in so many ways it's not funny. You can claim it's non canon because Disney bought the franchise, that doesn't mean we don't know Lucas' thoughts... we certainly do.

NO that is not a deleted scene. The book expands on what we see on film. Same thing here. If lucas wanted that out of the book... he would've taken it out. He didn't. You know very well he carefully edited that book. It stayed, it's canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You literally posted nothing of substance, like nothing. It's almost getting ridiculous now how you'll discount canon evidence for your theory. I have neither the time nor patience for people that retarded and illogical. I'll just ask one further question to see how you'll answer...

Would it not be correct that Lucas' intention when the movie was made... when the book was written... that Mace beats Sids. Do you agree with that? I don't care if you believe things change, and he later changed his mind, I'm only interested if you agree Lucas' original intent was the Mace winning?

Well one thing you probably weren't understand is we both type so much so it's probably I had to take out some of your stuff to make mine fit so you didn't get the full message or confused my stuff with yours.

What canon have I disregarded. If anyhring I'm doing a better job with canon than you are. You're attempting to discredit the Official site, trying to put the books on level or above the movies. You're doing everything wrong. So how do you live with yourself if you do all these things. You place the books above or equal to the movies, you trample others opinions, and say they are wrong even though you know it's all an opinion thing, ask ill thought questions, use straw man arguments to a very high degree, don't use common sense, run away when people respond to your questions with answers that defeat you, and then use profanity and other rude words(yes I use it to) to accomplish your ill faited ends, and are just plain stupid? So again I ask, how do you live with yourself? Well based on these post, you have a fair amount of time on your hands if you can type up these comments some back to back. Most of the ones I've seen from you have been pretty lengthy. Also I have a feeling your running from me. We had a big debate going, and it seems you've abandoned your quest. So I take it I'm the victor then.

I'm not Lucas, so I really can't say without a doubt what his original intent was. I don't have my own I dea on what it is. I only focus on what is now, sense that's really the only thing that matters is the CURRENT information, not something he originally had, or possibly had. What he has ow is what we all should look at. The fact that you don't, is a question I ponder. So that is my answer. I don't know what his original intent was. I don't wonder about it, because it doesn't matter. Also I'll give you some advice free of charge. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR POLICY ABOUT WHAT YU ACCEPT AND DONT ACCEPT. NO ONE CARES HOW YOU VIEW THE BOKKS AND THE MOVIES. MOVIES ARE GREATER THAN THE BOOKS. NOVELS ARE ONLY CANON WHEN ALIGNED WITH THE MOVIES. SO ANAKIN SHOWING UP WHILE THEY ARE DUELING IS NOT IN THE MOVIE. ANAKIN SHOWS UP AFTER THEYRE DONE. THE MOVIE BEATS EVERYTHING.

if its not explained or shown in the movies then its a lower form of canon if any at all. You think regular people read the novels? No they don't, the only medium of Star Wars that reaches the masses are the films and if you watch the movies, then you will see all the point I have made are correct and Sidious threw the fight expressly to turn Skywalker against the Jedi. If one form of canon contradicts the other then you have to go with which one is the higher level of canon. In Star Wars case the highest level of canon is the movies. If it didn't happen on screen then it didn't happen.

Kurupt you have let your mind become clouded by these conflicting sources of information. Search your feelings, you will know this to be true.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We most certainly DO know what he thinks. He outright stated Mace overcame Sids. We all know what Lucas' intent was when the book and movie were made. He made it crystal clear to us all in so many ways it's not funny. You can claim it's non canon because Disney bought the franchise, that doesn't mean we don't know Lucas' thoughts... we certainly do.

NO that is not a deleted scene. The book expands on what we see on film. Same thing here. If lucas wanted that out of the book... he would've taken it out. He didn't. You know very well he carefully edited that book. It stayed, it's canon.


How can it be Canon KT when it never happened in the film?

Assuming that line came from Lucas (and it wasn't instead a line of Stover's which Lucas allowed) the fact that it clearly never happened in the film makes it no better than a deleted scene.

The book can't expand on something that never happened.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
How can it be Canon KT when it never happened in the film?

You know what else didn't happen in the film?

Sids throwing the fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You know what else didn't happen in the film?

Sids throwing the fight.


Debateable. But I agree Mace genuinely put Sidious on his ass. I just think it was a One off.

As for Lucas's thoughts and true intentions KT, he had 6 seasons of SW:TCW animation to show us that. Heck we've even seen Mace, Yoda and Sidious fight in that animation. And Not Once were any of them portrayed as moving at the kind of speeds you are talking about. Not Once.

So don't cling to this supposed "invisible" speed from a Non-Canon scene when Lucas has made his true and canon speed depictions very clear.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Debateable. But I agree Mace genuinely put Sidious on his ass. I just think it was a One off.

As for Lucas's thoughts and true intentions KT, he had 6 seasons of SW:TCW animation to show us that. Heck we've even seen Mace, Yoda and Sidious fight in that animation. And Not Once were any of them portrayed as moving at the kind of speeds you are talking about. Not Once.

So don't cling to this supposed "invisible" speed from a Non-Canon scene when Lucas has made his true and canon speed depictions very clear.

Wait, when did I talk about their speeds?

I think you're talking to the wrong person here...

Originally posted by relentless1
if its not explained or shown in the movies then its a lower form of canon if any at all. You think regular people read the novels? No they don't, the only medium of Star Wars that reaches the masses are the films and if you watch the movies, then you will see all the point I have made are correct and Sidious threw the fight expressly to turn Skywalker against the Jedi. If one form of canon contradicts the other then you have to go with which one is the higher level of canon. In Star Wars case the highest level of canon is the movies. If it didn't happen on screen then it didn't happen.

Kurupt you have let your mind become clouded by these conflicting sources of information. Search your feelings, you will know this to be true.

You act like I don't use the movies. That's is the first source I've quoted. I've DIRECTLY shown Lucas outright stating in his commentary of the movie that Mace overcame sids. If his intent was to have sids throw the fight why say that. Wouldn't that be the point you would say, yeah.. here we see Sids throwing the fight. Yet, he says something directly contradicting that. Yet you go, oh yeah he threw the fight, and then have the nerve to tell me I'm not relying on the highest form of canon. Buddy, that's exactly what I rely on. I throw in the book reference because they REINFORCE the case even more convincingly. When Lucas has a book written and edits said book and approves said book, and it also talks about mace winning and how he won. You can still sit here with a straight face and go he threw the fight. It's pretty amazing actually. You literally have next to nothing on your side when it comes to canon, and yet you talk from a position of power. If you honestly think about it, to even argue Lucas' intent was to have Sids throw the fight, and not have one high canon source ever say so, is well, pretty damming.

Why did you avoid my questions? Was it because you know deep down Lucas really meant for Mace to win. All the conjecture and theories you guys put forth has never EVER been backed up by Lucas. I on the other hand have Lucas directing a movie showing mace kicking the saber from Sids and disarming him. We see it, a 5 year old could watch that scene and go Mace disarmed Sids. Correct? Then we have Lucas outright saying mace overcame him. Like literally spot on with the movie, and you have the nerve to say I don't have any highest form of canon on my side? Really? LMAO. Are you serious? I have all the evidence. All the book does is reiterate what we already see. To not recognize that fact is kind of scary.

firstly, overcame is a lot different then overpowered, second Lucas changed his mind a lot about a lot of things regarding Star Wars so he's an iffy source when it comes to this stuff. He also says at one point that you'd have to be Yoda or Mace to even compete with the Emperor, almost making it sounds as if Sidious was above the two of them. So right there he contradicts his own comments.

Originally posted by relentless1
He also says at one point that you'd have to be Yoda or Mace to even compete with the Emperor, almost making it sounds as if Sidious was above the two of them. So right there he contradicts his own comments.

Actually sounds like they were peers more than it sounds like he above was the two of them....

Literally meaning no one other than Yoda or Mace can compete with him...

^ Mace and Sidious are definitely not peers. Maybe in Saber skills, but definitely not even it comes to Power Levels.



Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wait, when did I talk about their speeds?

I think you're talking to the wrong person here...


I specifically addressed that part of my post to KT.

^ That's Silver's commentary from ComicVine.

Wait, didn't the 2 of you contend against the use of novelization/Lucas comments as evidence in debates?

Now it's all of a sudden valid use as evidence?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Mace and Sidious are definitely not peers. Maybe in Saber skills, but definitely not even it comes to Power Levels.

Good thing all he needed was Saber "skills" to defend against it, eh?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I specifically addressed that part of my post to KT.

Didn't know what the KT part was about til later and by then it was too late to edit.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ That's Silver's commentary from ComicVine.

yes it is, he went more into depth than I ever could, but a lot of what he said is the same thing I've been saying, he just had the better quotes. More specifically the ones for KTs argument about Lucas' commentary

Originally posted by relentless1
yes it is, he went more into depth than I ever could, but a lot of what he said is the same thing I've been saying, he just had the better quotes. More specifically the ones for KTs argument about Lucas' commentary

Which, for anyone who reads it, is still based entirely on conjecture.

so is your side of the debate

Originally posted by relentless1
so is your side of the debate

Wrong.

Here are the indisputable facts:

Windu engaged Sids in saber combat.

Windu disarms Sids in saber combat.

Windu knocks Sids on his ass in saber combat.

Windu deflected Sid's lightning back at him.

Now, there is no other way to interpret the scene besides the above. Your "side" INSERTED the "he threw the fights" argument (based on pure conjecture) to try and put circumstances that were not even alluded to in the said scene.

Beyond that, without conjecture, one must interpret the above factual information and try and determine if Windu won the fight or not.

I can post the movie clip if you want.

Relentless, are you the Carver of Star Wars/Sidious?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wait, didn't the 2 of you contend against the use of novelization/Lucas comments as evidence in debates?

Now it's all of a sudden valid use as evidence?



Good thing all he needed was Saber "skills" to defend against it, eh?




I Only argued against it where it can't possibly align with the movie.

Can Mace defend against TK with his Saber skills as well? Wow that Purple Saber can do all sorts.

Even the Saber win was a One Off IMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
OMG! Such an accurate depiction of what happened in the movie! Look how close the saber BENT towards Mace's face in the movie:

http://i.imgur.com/f9QtC3Z.png

I mean with another maybe 10 inches it would have been close enough to cut him up real bad.

Your sarcasm aside there's nothing in the film that contradicts the idea that Mace was struggling to hold on to his Saber, and that Sidious's Lightning was Beyond Mace's abilities.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I Only argued against it where it can't possibly align with the movie.

Can Mace defend against TK with his Saber skills as well? Wow that Purple Saber can do all sorts.

Even the Saber win was a One Off IMO.

You mean you only argued against it when it fits your interpretation of how things should go? Aka. argue for it when it's convenient for you? Double standards. Double standards everywhere!

We'll never know since Sids didn't use it. Did he? Read what I typed. Notice the term "needed". The use of the word is very important as it specifies what argument I am pertaining to. Hint: It is not used to address a future/hypothetical scenario. You'll notice that my argument is entirely based on the question: "Did Mace beat Sids?" and "Did Sids throw the fight?". Think about it a second and you'll get what I mean.

Can Sids beat Windu? Reasonable speculation, peers can beat peers after all. However, that is not what happened in the movie and there is no proof that he "threw" the fight.

Bottom line, Windu beat Sidious in a fight. Their one and only movie fight. Ppl just need to accept that and move on.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Your sarcasm aside there's nothing in the film that contradicts the idea that Mace was struggling to hold on to his Saber, and that Sidious's Lightning was Beyond Mace's abilities.

Sure, he was struggling, it's there on screen for all to see.

Did he struggle enough for ppl to throw around crazy notions like "Sids could have beat Mace with lightning at any time by bending his light saber"?

No. Not really.

Edit. As for Sid's lightning being "beyond Mace's abilities", sure didn't look like it when he deflected Sid's lightning back to his face. Unless you think Sids allowed himself to be cooked medium well on purpose. Essentially: prove it.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sure, he was struggling, it's there on screen for all to see.

Did he struggle enough for ppl to throw around crazy notions like "Sids could have beat Mace with lightning at any time by bending his light saber"?

No. Not really.

Edit. As for Sid's lightning being "beyond Mace's abilities", sure didn't look like it when he deflected Sid's lightning back to his face. Unless you think Sids allowed himself to be cooked medium well on purpose. Essentially: prove it.

He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.

Proof's in the novel.

And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.

So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers. And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

1) He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.

Proof's in the novel.

2) And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.

3) So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers.

4) And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.

1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.

2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.

3) Except he didn't.

4) Except he didn't.

It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.

If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch, Sidious woudl win in an all out match and a pure saber match. Windu's Vaapad wouldn't elevate him to the same level of power I believe. My reasoning is this.

The factors making up Vaapad were Sidious' dark side power and Mace's inner darkness. I don't believe his inner darkness woudl be nearly as strong, due to it not being an "in the moment" situation. This would be a second duel, and since they were proven to be dead equals, anything less than what Windu got last time woudl mean a loss of him. Even 1% less, mean Sidious has the edge and woudl ultimately win, at least that's how I see it. Then if Sidious abuses the force than yes Windu is done.

Originally posted by relentless1
firstly, overcame is a lot different then overpowered, second Lucas changed his mind a lot about a lot of things regarding Star Wars so he's an iffy source when it comes to this stuff. He also says at one point that you'd have to be Yoda or Mace to even compete with the Emperor, almost making it sounds as if Sidious was above the two of them. So right there he contradicts his own comments.

This getting ridiculous now, and it's truly painful. I mean painful to watch. Let me get this straight relentless, and tell me this makes logical sense.

Lucas decides:

1. He's going to write a script for ROTS, and not one did he EVER talk about or even hint at a fight being thrown

2. Has a book written on movie, to add even more thoughts and details to the story to expand on things maybe not seen. He careful edits said book, and has it goes through edits and edits. Never in the book does he include anything about Sids throwing the fight, instead he includes:
A. how sids attacked Mace with all his dark side might, even makes note of a force push intending to kill mace (clearly implying the opposite of him holding back or throwing the fight and dismissing the notion that he wasn't trying to kill mace)
B. explains how Mace beat Sids, through shatterpoint and slowing him down by breaking the window and letting the rain in. So instead of explaining how the fight was thrown, he instead has a book written explaining how Mace was able to win.

3. Then in his commentary he explicitly states that Mace overcame him. Not only does he say that, but he shows EXACTLY that in the movie. We visibly see Mace disarm him. Very clear and unambiguously at that. Instead of discussing how the fight was thrown and a rouse, he instead reaffirms that Mace beat Sids.

Now honestly, you honestly believe all that happened, and yet Lucas' true thought were that Sids threw the fight? I mean really? Do you honestly believe that?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He did the same in the novel. But it was beyond Mace to keep it up.

Proof's in the novel.

And let's not forget this was Sidious shooting Lightning from a position of being on his Ass and right under Mace's blade.

So yes Sidious definitely could have won by going all out with his Force Powers. And there's even the possibility Sidious would win a Saber rematch.

It wasn't beyond anything, he kept it up and resisted it. It's all there for us to see. Somebody commenting that it was beyond Vaapad, is just narration to invoke drama. Think about it, and answer honestly, how many times have we heard or read the lines I can't hold out any longer... I'm giving it all I got.. THEN they give more and that isn't all the got. A non omnipotent narrator saying such language doesn't mean he couldn't have held out long enough for sids to official **** himself up. If he wanted to show us that, he very well could have, guess what he did.. he showed us Mace maintaining

Also, if you're using the book, all I need to use is one line, Sids trying to force push Mace out the window and windu having to counter to barely survive. You don't try and kill somebody you're intentionally trying to carry and have live till you can turn him. That would be the definition of counter productive to that. So if you use the book it gets even worse for the throwing the fight argument. Much worse.

Originally posted by Placidity
Relentless, are you the Carver of Star Wars/Sidious? HaHa that was good

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch, Sidious woudl win in an all out match and a pure saber match. Windu's Vaapad wouldn't elevate him to the same level of power I believe. My reasoning is this.

The factors making up Vaapad were Sidious' dark side power and Mace's inner darkness. I don't believe his inner darkness woudl be nearly as strong, due to it not being an "in the moment" situation. This would be a second duel, and since they were proven to be dead equals, anything less than what Windu got last time woudl mean a loss of him. Even 1% less, mean Sidious has the edge and woudl ultimately win, at least that's how I see it. Then if Sidious abuses the force than yes Windu is done.

All speculation, buddy. Heck, the movie was not specific on the reason on how Mace beat Sids. Excluding novelization (which has been found very inconsistent with regards with the movie), one can just argue that he beat Sids via pure saberplay via a kick to the face. Then deflected his lightning back at him via pure saber/force ability.

Without any kind of novelization help (w/c has again been inconsistent), this would actually be a very reasonable analysis of the fight.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.

2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.

3) Except he didn't.

4) Except he didn't.

It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.

Owned. Well done. I also hate debating with this could have happened or that could happened guys all the while ignoring WHAT DID HAPPEN.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Except the novel is not proof in a movie VS forum.

So movie canon doesn't count? LOL

But Funny you didn't say that to KT, when he was claiming Mace moves faster than Anakin can even perceive, based on a part of the novel that didn't even happen in the film.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Which ended up cooking him and doing no damage to Windu, yes.

Because Sidious stopped firing. And he only stopped because he was pretending to be weak (as confirmed by George Lucas in the Movie audio commentary).



Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) Except he didn't.


Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters forcing Sidious into Saber combat.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) Except he didn't.

Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters.


Originally posted by Nibedicus
It's funny that you deal in conjectures and I deal in things that actually happened on screen.




Actually no, I deal with Star Wars Movie Canon, which I clearly have far more knowledge of than you if you're claiming Mace Windu is as Powerful as Sidious, and 1 circumstantial fight is the all and end all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It wasn't beyond anything, he kept it up and resisted it. It's all there for us to see. Somebody commenting that it was beyond Vaapad, is just narration to invoke drama.

Or maybe it actually was beyond Mace, since you know Sidious actually is more powerful than Mace. And Sidious's Lightning even managed to disarm Yoda off his Saber.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Think about it, and answer honestly, how many times have we heard or read the lines I can't hold out any longer... I'm giving it all I got..


Difference here is we don't know if he could have kept resisting it, because Sidious stopped firing, pretending to be weak, as per Lucas. So all we know is before Sidious stopped (pretending to be weak), Sidious was slowly(but surely) overpowering Mace.


Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If you think about it, if Mace and Sidious did have a rematch.


Good point, they had the Saber match up first, where Mace began the fight with 3 other Masters aiding him.

Then once Mace eventually won that, and Anakin walked in, they had a second contest of Sidious's Lightning vs Mace's Saber, which we know Sidious was winning until he pretended to be too weak to continue.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
All speculation, buddy. Heck, the movie was not specific on the reason on how Mace beat Sids. Excluding novelization (which has been found very inconsistent with regards with the movie), one can just argue that he beat Sids via pure saberplay via a kick to the face. Then deflected his lightning back at him via pure saber/force ability.

Without any kind of novelization help (w/c has again been inconsistent), this would actually be a very reasonable analysis of the fight.

I'm pretty sure vaapaad woudl be the reason. That is what we have all agreed upon, and know that Mace posses. The book really, I agree can be inconsistent, but it is canon none the less where it aligns with the movie. Vaapad is so thing we all know mace has, so I'm not sure why this a problem. What is fact are the two factors that made up Vaapad, Mace's inner darkness, and Palpatine's darkness. If he uses Vaapad at 100%, he will get Palpatine's energy the same, but his inner darkness wouldn't be as high, due to him already having a first appearance. He has already had a first fight with him, so his inner darkness, wouldn't be as strong due to it being a second fight. Since they were dead equals, anything less on any of their parts than what they brought to the table last time woudl mean that one woudl loose if they brought less. Sidious as proven can bring that power by himself. Windu used Vaapad. Windu possibly won't get the same inner darkness for the reasons stated above.

Also Sidious=Yoda>Windu, all of this is canocially proven. So really the notion that without Vaapad Windu is on level it's Sidious is far fetched. Also we woudl agree that Dooku and Windu are very closely matched, if not complete equals right? Windu</=Dooku>Yoda=Sidious.

Aside from that how have you been man? It's been a while.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) So movie canon doesn't count? LOL

2) But Funny you didn't say that to KT, when he was claiming Mace moves faster than Anakin can even perceive, based on a part of the novel that didn't even happen in the film.

3) Because Sidious stopped firing. And he only stopped because he was pretending to be weak (as confirmed by George Lucas in the Movie audio commentary).

4) Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters forcing Sidious into Saber combat.

Perhaps because Mace began the fight with help from 3 other Masters.

Actually no, I deal with Star Wars Movie Canon, which I clearly have far more knowledge of than you if you're claiming Mace Windu is as Powerful as Sidious, and 1 circumstantial fight is the all and end all.

1) Novelization is not canon to the movies, especially when it had instances of it DIRECTLY contradicted by the movie (bent saber anyone?). Only the desperate would cling to inadmissible evidence and then go pretend that it's some sort of irrefutable logic. Here, let me copy/paste the MvF golden rule for you:

"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"

If you want, I can ask for a mod ruling to determine if novelizations (especially novels that have scenes that DIRECTLY contradict with what happened on screen) are admissible here?

2) Not my job to do that as I am arguing a separate point. Why should I do your job for you? Don't be lazy.

3) Conjecture. We do not know the reasoning of why he stopped firing as it was never mentioned in the movies. Nor do we know what would have happend had he continued firing. You are grasping at staws.

And FYI, what Lucas may have referred to him "pretending to be weak" is the actual statement he made that he was "too weak" (which was pretense as he still wasn't too weak at the time).

3:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

What we DO know is that he got cooked and horribly scarred the more he fired and Windu suffered no damage whatsoever.

4) "Perhaps" this, "perhaps" that. Hehe. Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. That is all you have. Let me then present what ACTUALLY happened:

The "help" you seem to be talking about lasted less than 10 seconds (0:40-0:49) with the first 2 jedis killed within the first 2 seconds. From there, he had EVERY opportunity to use his force powers or to win the saber match.

But he didn't.

So stop using your maybes' and perhaps' while presenting ZERO proof to support your argument. It is desperate and we both know you're better than that. Conjecture is all you have. Conjecture that (I'm sure you know) withers before actual direct evidence.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1) I'm pretty sure vaapaad woudl be the reason. That is what we have all agreed upon, and know that Mace posses.

2) The book really, I agree can be inconsistent, but it is canon none the less where it aligns with the movie. Vaapad is so thing we all know mace has, so I'm not sure why this a problem.

3) What is fact are the two factors that made up Vaapad, Mace's inner darkness, and Palpatine's darkness. If he uses Vaapad at 100%, he will get Palpatine's energy the same, but his inner darkness wouldn't be as high, due to him already having a first appearance. He has already had a first fight with him, so his inner darkness, wouldn't be as strong due to it being a second fight. Since they were dead equals, anything less on any of their parts than what they brought to the table last time woudl mean that one woudl loose if they brought less. Sidious as proven can bring that power by himself. Windu used Vaapad. Windu possibly won't get the same inner darkness for the reasons stated above.

4) Also Sidious=Yoda>Windu, all of this is canocially proven. So really the notion that without Vaapad Windu is on level it's Sidious is far fetched. Also we woudl agree that Dooku and Windu are very closely matched, if not complete equals right? Windu</=Dooku>Yoda=Sidious.

5) Aside from that how have you been man? It's been a while.

1) What is agreed upon in the forum is irrelevant, what matters is direct evidence and highest canon material (movie).

2) This is where you are wrong. A book is NOT automatically canon to a movie. And novelizations have to be 100% consistent with the source material (movie) for it to be considered canon. Any inconsistency/contradiction whatsoever and it falls apart as canon material. This is also applicable vice versa. Example: LoTR books cannot be used as evidence for the movie as there are some inconsistencies with book portrayal vs movie portrayal.

3) Conjecture and irrelevant.

4) There are many ways a person can be greater and obviously Yoda has a higher rank than Windu due to his age and tenure as well as his power and skill. And Sidious is a master manipulator and a master force user as well. Overall, in combat, however, they are all peers.

5) Doing good, buddy. Hehe. Glad to still have you here. Was busy for a better part of 5 months. Time is starting to free up tho.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Novelization is not canon to the movies, especially when it had instances of it DIRECTLY contradicted by the movie (bent saber anyone?). Only the desperate would cling to inadmissible evidence and then go pretend that it's some sort of irrefutable logic. Here, let me copy/paste the MvF golden rule for you:

"What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!"

If you want, I can ask for a mod ruling to determine if novelizations (especially novels that have scenes that DIRECTLY contradict with what happened on screen) are admissible here?


Firstly it doesn't contradict the scene in question. Because Mace's Saber was pushed back, and Mace clearly was struggling to hold onto his Saber.

Whilst you're acting as if the whole scene was completely different. It wasn't.

Secondly you're bringing up Movie versus rules, and ignoring SW movies has a very established set of Canon rules in and of itself, which includes the movie novelizations where they align with the movies.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Not my job to do that as I am arguing a separate point. Why should I do your job for you? Don't be lazy.


I've already done that job. Just pointing out your double standards. You see KT use a scene in the novel that doesn't even occur in the film as Proof, and Ignore it. Then you see me use descriptions of a scene that does happen in the film, and jump all over me for it.


Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) Conjecture. We do not know the reasoning of why he stopped firing as it was never mentioned in the movies. Nor do we know what would have happend had he continued firing. You are grasping at staws.

No it's not conjecture. It's in the damn movie commentary Lol.


Originally posted by Nibedicus
And FYI, what Lucas may have referred to him "pretending to be weak" is the actual statement he made that he was "too weak" (which was pretense as he still wasn't too weak at the time).

3:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

What we DO know is that he got cooked and horribly scarred the more he fired and Windu suffered no damage whatsoever.


Yes that's all that happened, that Sidious was getting "cooked". Mace was just fine right? Which is why he was the one screaming LOL



Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) "Perhaps" this, "perhaps" that. Hehe. Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. That is all you have. Let me then present what ACTUALLY happened:


Oh please do.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The "help" you seem to be talking about lasted less than 10 seconds (0:40-0:49) with the first 2 jedis killed within the first 2 seconds.


And 10 seconds makes no difference in a fight? LOL





Originally posted by Nibedicus
From there, he had EVERY opportunity to use his force powers or to win the saber match.


No, because he was forced into close up Saber combat right from the get go. There was no other way to take out 3 Jedi that quickly.

On the other hand, how did Sidious's fight start with Yoda? Because IIRC it began with Sidious Shooting at Yoda from a distance sending him flying. And then Yoda giving Sidious a dose of Force Powers back. And THEN they engaged in Sabers.



Originally posted by Nibedicus
So stop using your maybes' and perhaps' while presenting ZERO proof to support your argument. It is desperate and we both know you're better than that. Conjecture is all you have. Conjecture that (I'm sure you know) withers before actual direct evidence.


Hmm let's see what direct evidence you have exactly? That Mace can beat Sidious in a Saber match up when he begins the fight with 3 other Jedi Masters.

That Mace can then "Overpower" Sidious's Lightning, when Sidious is Pretending to be Weak.

But for you're argument You're Assuming that neither of those 2 factors made any difference at all.

So it's in fact YOU whose being desperate, You whose full of Conjecture, if you're using all of that as some kind of evidence that Mace =/> Sidious in a fair 1 v 1 match up.

Whilst I have the Attack of the Clones movie featurette as proof that Mace is SECOND in combat abilities to Yoda - You know the guy who fought dead evenly with Sidious. I also have the Revenge of the Sith audio commentary Proving Sidious was Pretending to be WEAK against Mace Windu. I have the Revenge of the Sith Novel, Line Edited by Lucas, stating Sidious was Too Powerful for Mace.

Heck I even have TCW animation (Canon to the movies) as proof Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, which is MORE PROOF he wasn't as helpless as he made out on the floor, Playing Weak.

So you need to stop shouting "Conjecture Conjecture" and actually bring something solid to this argument yourself. And actually make it clear exactly what it is you're arguing. Are you honestly arguing Mace > Sidious? I don't even know. At least Quanchi is clear on that. Whilst you just seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Whats up Mr. Ed?

Jedi win every time. Dooku gets crushed. Sidious is also Windu's *****.

Originally posted by DTM
Is there really any doubt that Palpatine faking his weakness during his duel with Windu was an act? Clearly Palpatine goes from a weak, feeble and broken man begging for his life to screaming UNLIMITED POWER in a matter of seconds. This was obviously done to get Anakin to take action, his final test to turn him to the Dark Side, which once he did, and the ruse no longer needed, Palpatine once more showed his True Power and blasted Windu out the window. This literally couldnt be more obvious when you watch the movie. Im not saying Mace couldnt beat Palpatine in a duel, Im more saying that its pretty clear that he didnt Really beat him in ROTS. Ridiculous and Lucas already said Windu overpowered him. Sheev feigned weakened only after he couldn't do anything about defending himself against Windu in his current situation. He needed Anakin because he was at Mace's mercy.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Or maybe it actually was beyond Mace, since you know Sidious actually is more powerful than Mace. And Sidious's Lightning even managed to disarm Yoda off his Saber.





Difference here is we don't know if he could have kept resisting it, because Sidious stopped firing, pretending to be weak, as per Lucas. So all we know is before Sidious stopped (pretending to be weak), Sidious was slowly(but surely) overpowering Mace.





Good point, they had the Saber match up first, where Mace began the fight with 3 other Masters aiding him.

Then once Mace eventually won that, and Anakin walked in, they had a second contest of Sidious's Lightning vs Mace's Saber, which we know Sidious was winning until he pretended to be too weak to continue.

You're right, we don't know, and that is the entire point. Absence of proof isn't proof. Nor is using that line to prove that Mace couldn't hold out, he DID in fact hold out. Who knows how long Sids could've kept on going, you have zero idea on that point, and thus makes your theory invalid. It was obviously negatively impacting Sids as well, so who knows how long he could've. The point is, if I had a quarter for every time I heard the line... "I can't hold on any longer" "That is all I can give" "he's too strong for me" and yet they end up holding out or winning.... I'd be a rich guy. Nothing in that line is proof Sids could've beat Mace had he continued.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Firstly it doesn't contradict the scene in question. Because Mace's Saber was pushed back, and Mace clearly was struggling to hold onto his Saber.

Whilst you're acting as if the whole scene was completely different. It wasn't.

Secondly you're bringing up Movie versus rules, and ignoring SW movies has a very established set of Canon rules in and of itself, which includes the movie novelizations where they align with the movies.




I've already done that job. Just pointing out your double standards. You see KT use a scene in the novel that doesn't even occur in the film as Proof, and Ignore it. Then you see me use descriptions of a scene that does happen in the film, and jump all over me for it.




No it's not conjecture. It's in the damn movie commentary Lol.





Yes that's all that happened, that Sidious was getting "cooked". Mace was just fine right? Which is why he was the one screaming LOL






Oh please do.




And 10 seconds makes no difference in a fight? LOL








No, because he was forced into close up Saber combat right from the get go. There was no other way to take out 3 Jedi that quickly.

On the other hand, how did Sidious's fight start with Yoda? Because IIRC it began with Sidious Shooting at Yoda from a distance sending him flying. And then Yoda giving Sidious a dose of Force Powers back. And THEN they engaged in Sabers.






Hmm let's see what direct evidence you have exactly? That Mace can beat Sidious in a Saber match up when he begins the fight with 3 other Jedi Masters.

That Mace can then "Overpower" Sidious's Lightning, when Sidious is Pretending to be Weak.

But for you're argument You're Assuming that neither of those 2 factors made any difference at all.

So it's in fact YOU whose being desperate, You whose full of Conjecture, if you're using all of that as some kind of evidence that Mace =/> Sidious in a fair 1 v 1 match up.

Whilst I have the Attack of the Clones movie featurette as proof that Mace is SECOND in combat abilities to Yoda - You know the guy who fought dead evenly with Sidious. I also have the Revenge of the Sith audio commentary Proving Sidious was Pretending to be WEAK against Mace Windu. I have the Revenge of the Sith Novel, Line Edited by Lucas, stating Sidious was Too Powerful for Mace.

Heck I even have TCW animation (Canon to the movies) as proof Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, which is MORE PROOF he wasn't as helpless as he made out on the floor, Playing Weak.

So you need to stop shouting "Conjecture Conjecture" and actually bring something solid to this argument yourself. And actually make it clear exactly what it is you're arguing. Are you honestly arguing Mace > Sidious? I don't even know. At least Quanchi is clear on that. Whilst you just seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.

Correction, Sids was not pretending to be weak when firing lighting the entire time. He only "pretended" to be weak once his face was being fried and taking damage, prior to that, there is zero evidence to support it being "fake" lighting.

Correction again... How close the blade is, is VITAL important and a similar comparison here. Think about it... The claim is the blade was mere inches from his face and he was breathing in the fuse from his sword. When dealing with things THAT close... it actually being 2 feet away is hugely significant. I'll remind you, close like Anakin seeing a fight through a window of fast saber combat, while in the book, they were so fast they appeared like a haze. You can't have it both ways, and they are very much the same in this respect. What's good for Goose is good for the gander.

I've corrected you on this before, and I'll do so again. Saying somebody could've fought differently and thus won, isn't allowed on this forum. That is conjecture and you scripting the fight. It's ASSUEMD combatants are fighting to the best of their abilities. I've corrected you a few times on this, and you tried to repeat it again, but you know I won't allow that bud. You feeling like Sids could've done this or that, doesn't mean he fought dumb, or had he fought as you claim he would've won. Nope, not even close. Sids fought as best as he could, and he lost, it's that simple. You feeling like he could've done this or that, changes absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ridiculous and Lucas already said Windu overpowered him. Sheev feigned weakened only after he couldn't do anything about defending himself against Windu in his current situation. He needed Anakin because he was at Mace's mercy.

Why should anyone take anything you say seriously? I mean your past performances show you aren't one to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Why should anyone take anything you say seriously? I mean your past performances show you aren't one to be taken seriously. Nah, my argument is being supported here against you biased Sheev fanboys. Everything you fanboys say is conjecture. I rely on facts, kid.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) What is agreed upon in the forum is irrelevant, what matters is direct evidence and highest canon material (movie).

2) This is where you are wrong. A book is NOT automatically canon to a movie. And novelizations have to be 100% consistent with the source material (movie) for it to be considered canon. Any inconsistency/contradiction whatsoever and it falls apart as canon material. This is also applicable vice versa. Example: LoTR books cannot be used as evidence for the movie as there are some inconsistencies with book portrayal vs movie portrayal.

3) Conjecture and irrelevant.

4) There are many ways a person can be greater and obviously Yoda has a higher rank than Windu due to his age and tenure as well as his power and skill. And Sidious is a master manipulator and a master force user as well. Overall, in combat, however, they are all peers.

5) Doing good, buddy. Hehe. Glad to still have you here. Was busy for a better part of 5 months. Time is starting to free up tho.


1. Books are canon when they align with the movies. Actually things that are agreed here are important. There are things we will never understand, so we have to come to some sort of agreement. Also aren't the fighting styles canon? It's pretty established that Vaapad is out their.

2. Well you're partly wrong. It doesn't have to be 100% with the movie to be canon. That's why I say it's canon where it aligns with the movie. So we both agree that those parts are canon.

3. It's actually proven. Vaapad has been explained how it works. It reflects the darkness from the opponent and also uses your own inner darkness to make a "superconducting loop". Now that's fact. It's also a common sense thing. Once you've gone at it with someone once, your feelings aren't as intense as the first time. That being said one of those factors for Vaapad isn't as high so your power, speed, and strength won't be as high. Fact leads to common sense for this one.

4. With Vaapad Windu is Sidious peer. With it he's not Yoda's due to his inner darkness and Yoda's dark energy not being nearly high enough. Look at me being all technical.

5. Good to hear from you again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah, my argument is being supported here against you biased Sheev fanboys. Everything you fanboys say is conjecture. I rely on facts, kid.

I mean you say you rely on facts, but you didn't answer the question. Why should anyone listen to you since your persona has been shown to be idiotic, so why listen to you.

Movie feats only. Quit ignoring the rules you fanboy.