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Fight takes place aboard the Invisible Hand. Who wins?

Dooku schools them.

Dooku

Yes, Count Dooku schools this Strike Team because he is the league of Vitiate.

You don't have to be Vitiate to school this team, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You don't have to be Vitiate to school this team, lol.
These Jedi were chosen by the Jedi High Council among thousands of options to tackle the greatest threat to the Jedi Order in the galaxy in an era when Jedi were supposedly at the pinnacle of their preparedness and competence.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t607243.html

Logically, each is a powerhouse. Collectively, these Jedi are nearly unstoppable and/or capable of tackling most threats in the galaxy.

But since none of them have been depicted collapsing a bridge at individual level and they collectively lost to the most powerful being in the galactic history in a confrontation, so they must be collectively inferior to Count Dooku as well since he have collapsed bridges, lifted rocks, contended with some of the greats of his time and vice versa. Apparently every well-known Tom, D*** & Harry of PT/OT era can tackle a Strike Team of some of the most powerful Jedi because Vitiate managed to. Logic, official ground realities and power-scaling be damned.

LeGenD still raging. mmm


http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/56475416.jpg

Originally posted by Stigma
LeGenD still raging. mmm

Everything proceeds as I have forseen
No, I am pointing out the prevalent logical fallacy among fans who perceive well-known PT/OT era characters as considerably superior to everything ancient.

Didn't mention anything about PT/OT characters (so goodbye to the last paragraph of red herrings), and Dooku isn't schooling them, but that doesn't mean you have to be on par with Vitiate to school them. Your multi-paragraph post doesn't refute that.

Dooku isn't schooling them and he may lose.

Anyone think it's possible to rehabilitate LeGeND of his strawman habits?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anyone think it's possible to rehabilitate LeGeND of his strawman habits?
Strawman habits?

I have provided a summary of point-of-view of some members in this thread. Intended message is that responses of fans of PT/OT era characters are predictable.

Tell me! What makes you think that Count Dooku can challenge this Strike Team?

Your responses are equally predictable. It doesn't matter which era you're a fan of, because when you enter a level of tunnel-visioned fanboyism with regards to any era, then your responses will become predictable.

Leg, you posted a strawman. No one here claimed Dooku is on Vitiate's level and no one claimed you have to be on vitiate's level to beat these guys.

You do this habitually and its part of the reason that few people around here treat you with any respect.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Didn't mention anything about PT/OT characters (so goodbye to the last paragraph of red herrings), and Dooku isn't schooling them, but that doesn't mean you have to be on par with Vitiate to school them. Your multi-paragraph post doesn't refute that.
That is not red-herring. That is the expected response of some members who perceive well-known PT/OT era characters to be considerably superior to everything ancient.

Tell me, what is the minimum criteria of defeating a Jedi Strike Team of this caliber? Hero of Tython tackled these Jedi individually, FYI.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is not red-herring. That is the expected response of some members who perceive well-known PT/OT era characters to be considerably superior to everything ancient.

Tell me, what is the minimum criteria of defeating a Jedi Strike Team of this caliber? Hero of Tython tackled these Jedi individually, FYI.

There's just as many people here who seem to adhere to the philosophy of OR Jedi/Sith automatically being superior to their modern counterparts. And yes, it's a red herring because you predicted a response that was never stated or implied here. Anti-fanboyism acts right off the bat (despite no provocation) are always red herrings.

The criteria involves somebody of immense power and skill, it just doesn't have to be Vitiate-tier. You don't need to go into the highest of tiers to get somebody who could defeat this team.

And the Hero tackled them individually because they were located in different areas, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Your responses are equally predictable. It doesn't matter which era you're a fan of, because when you enter a level of tunnel-visioned fanboyism with regards to any era, then your responses will become predictable.
My responses are mostly grounded in logic and available evidence. Admittedly, sometimes I am not able to express a point in most convincing manner but a smart reader can get the memo.

Evidently, only Vitiate is capable of challenging and defeating a Jedi Strike Team of this caliber.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Leg, you posted a strawman. No one here claimed Dooku is on Vitiate's level and no one claimed you have to be on vitiate's level to beat these guys.
So what is the minimum criteria to overwhelm a Strike Team of some of the best of TOR era?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You do this habitually and its part of the reason that few people around here treat you with any respect.
This is an example of straw man. And you are also overreaching. I am well-respected in some communities but I don't feel the need to boast about it and neither I have the habit of resorting to personal attacks like you. How is my respect relevant in this thread?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My responses are grounded in logic. Evidently, only Vitiate is capable of challenging and defeating a Jedi Strike Team of this caliber. These Jedi were challenged again but individually. SWTOR sources do not promote the idea that any being 'lesser' then Vitiate can challenge and overcome these Jedi collectively.


lol Sidious would tear this team apart. Yoda as well. Vitiate's equivalents in other eras would also humiliate this team.

No, it's not an example of a strawman lol. I'm just pointing out to you that this attitude is not only stupid, it undermines your agenda. Hard to persuade people about the validity of SWTOR if no one will hear you out

I'm not personally attacking you, either. I'm stating a fact: very few people here treat your opinions with any respect.

Christopher Lee is rolling in his grave at the idea of this team being able to do shit but die.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's just as many people here who seem to adhere to the philosophy of OR Jedi/Sith automatically being superior to their modern counterparts. And yes, it's a red herring because you predicted a response that was never stated or implied here. Anti-fanboyism acts right off the bat (despite no provocation) are always red herrings.
Care to offer a list? Most of the fans of ancient era content in Star Wars (including me) don't even bother with many threads featuring well-known PT/OT era characters because they understand that a debate would be inconclusive.

I have stated the obvious and this seems to upset fans of PT/OT era characters. Most notably you and The_Tempest.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The criteria involves somebody of immense power and skill, it just doesn't have to be Vitiate-tier. You don't need to go into the highest of tiers to get somebody who could defeat this team.
Wait...

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Each among these Jedi have immense power and skill. Don't you think?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And the Hero tackled them individually because they were located in different areas, lol.
Tol Braga nearly stopped him . With other two in the picture, even the mighty Hero of Tython wouldn't stand a chance.

Moreover, these Jedi were individually so powerful that Vitiate granted each supervisory role in orchestrating events in different settings that would fuel his ritual.

1. That's the typical opinion of a TOR fan. The fanboyism debates are always an impasse, so don't bother.

2. "Strongest in the Order"? So were the Jedi assembled by Mace Windu to take down Palpatine, before they were all slaughtered like pigs.

3. Sure, but the HoT could quite possibly defeat Leeha and Warren together, seeing as he gets to bring a companion along. Also, what suggests Braga nearly stopped him?

Lol, and Braga didn't nearly stop the HoT. He just knocked him of balance. Once. They don't even compare.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. "Strongest in the Order"? So were the Jedi assembled by Mace Windu to take down Palpatine, before they were all slaughtered like pigs.
With exception of Mace Windu, his companions were renowned for their expertise in Jedi dueling arts. Nothing more.

And why are you pointing out feats of Darth Sidious? You think that Count Dooku is in his league?

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Sure, but the HoT could quite possibly defeat Leeha and Warren together, seeing as he gets to bring a companion along. Also, what suggests Braga nearly stopped him?
We are considering a single individual against the referred Strike Team.

Tol Braga was able to hold his own against Hero of Tython in an exchange of Force powers. What happened afterwards is open to speculation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
With exception of Mace Windu, his companions were renowned for their expertise in Jedi dueling arts. Nothing more.

And you think that Count Dooku is in the league of Darth Sidious and Vitiate?


We are considering a single individual here.

Tol Braga nearly overwhelmed Hero of Tython with his Force powers. You can check the footage on YouTube.

1. Saesee was renowned as one of the most powerful Jedi (in the Force) as well, and he threw a battle droid four kilometers.

2. That's an example of a strawman that Tempest was talking about, and an example of a red herring that I was talking about. Nowhere did I ever state or imply Dooku is in their league, and I never claimed Dooku would win this matchup either, so I have no idea why that would be relevant.

3. He knocked the Hero down with TK, but that's a common occurrence in pre-fight cutscene encounters with a boss in TOR.

You said nobody other than Vitiate could school them, lol.

Another red herring.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Saesee was renowned as one of the most powerful Jedi (in the Force) as well, and he threw a battle droid four kilometers.
Here is the official statement:

As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi. (Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #114)

This sounds similar to the case of Bastilla Shan and Battle Meditation. She was able to influence countless targets and turn the tide of entire battles with a single talent. Battle Meditation is officially identified as one of the most powerful applications of the Force.

However, Shan was noticeably inferior in comparison to the best of her era in single combat or offensive use of the Force.

---

Also, what kind of battle droid? B1? It weighed only 65 kg.

Even if we are to assume that Saesee Tiin was decent in offensive use of the Force, Darth Sidious didn't overwhelm him in an exchange of Force powers. Sidious chose to kill the referred Jedi with a lightsaber as soon as he felt the need to do so. Tiin didn't get the opportunity to bring his powers to bear in this encounter.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. That's an example of a strawman that Tempest was talking about, and an example of a red herring that I was talking about. Nowhere did I ever state or imply Dooku is in their league, and I never claimed Dooku would win this matchup either, so I have no idea why that would be relevant.
This is an excuse to cover your opinion and fanboyism. If you think that Count Dooku cannot win in this contest then say so and be done with it. No need to come up with excuses that a character doesn't needs to be on the level of Vitiate to handle the referred Strike Team. Your point of contention is obvious, even if you are not outright stating it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. He knocked the Hero down with TK, but that's a common occurrence in pre-fight cutscene encounters with a boss in TOR.
This is not common occurrence. I recall Hero of Tython getting dominated in this manner during his encounters with Tol Braga and Kira Carsen (possessed by Vitiate) in cut-scenes. Others failed to press him in this manner. Interestingly, Emperor's Wrath have a similar showing mid-fight but during gameplay session (though it might be credible because it is a scripted occurrence).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Evidently, only Vitiate is capable of challenging and defeating a Jedi Strike Team of this caliber.
Please tell me you meant that Vitiate is the only person who could defeat this team in that very specific timeline. If you honestly have this team above Sidious, Luke, Yoda etc. I'm speechless.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These Jedi were chosen by the Jedi High Council among thousands of options to tackle the greatest threat to the Jedi Order in the galaxy in an era when Jedi were supposedly at the pinnacle of their preparedness and competence.


Agen, Kit and Saesee were chosen to deal with the most power Sith Lord in history (ys, superior to Vitiate) in an era, that was called "Jedi Prime Era" and "Golden Age of Jedi".

Dooku takes this.

Originally posted by Sinious
Please tell me you meant that Vitiate is the only person who could defeat this team in that very specific timeline. If you honestly have this team above Sidious, Luke, Yoda etc. I'm speechless.
Vitiate is the only being in the galactic history who have actual history of overwhelming some of the most formidable Strike Teams with sheer raw power and Force abilities in confrontations.

How the others will perform against the referred Jedi Strike Team is open to speculation and debate. But nothing is certain.

Darth Sidious (Canon incarnation) pinned Savage Opress and Darth Maul simultaneously to a wall for a short while with his Force abilities but it is unclear if he can do this to powerful Jedi simultaneously and/or overwhelm them with just his Force abilities. For example, when 4 Jedi actually came to arrest Sidious, the Sith Lord chose to dispatch them with a Lightsaber. Similarly, I don't recall Yoda and Luke Skywalker overwhelming powerful Jedi simultaneously with their Force abilities at any point.

However, Sidious (Dark Empire incarnation) have command of Force powers under his belt which enable him to inflict devastation of apocalyptic proportions, if given the opportunity. So he have my vote under right circumstances.

An argument can be made for Sidious (Canon), Yoda and Luke Skywalker (Legends) for capable of defeating the trio of Tol Braga, Leeha Narezz and Warren Sedoru simultaneously, but I am reluctant to maintain this opinion if Hero of Tython is included in the referred Strike Team.

Vitiate spent hundreds of years honing his talents in the Dark Side and specializes in offensive use of the Force abilities unlike any Jedi and/or Sith, IMO.

Yeah, I'm not wasting my time anymore. Legend accusing me of blatant PT fanboyism is hypocrisy and irony beyond measure.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is the only being in the galactic history who have actual history of overwhelming some of the most formidable Strike Teams with sheer raw power and Force abilities in confrontations.

How the others will perform against the referred Jedi Strike Team is open to speculation and debate. But nothing is certain.
If that's the logic you're following, Starkiller freaking pulled down a Star Destroyer and Sidious one-shot him with the force. So since Vitiate has never done anything much more impressive than that with TK, Starkiller is easily on his level.

So since Sidious one-shot SK, Sidious >>> Starkiller/Vitiate >>> Braga Strike Team.

Yoda stalemated ROTS Sidious and Luke is easily on DE Sidious' level which means they are all vastly above Vitaite and this team as well. An argument can be made for Vitiate or the strike team of course.

This is why the logic you're following doesn't work tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
If that's the logic you're following, Starkiller freaking pulled down a Star Destroyer and Sidious one-shot him with the force. So since Vitiate has never done anything much more impressive than that with TK, Starkiller is easily on his level.

So since Sidious one-shot SK, Sidious >>> Starkiller/Vitiate >>> Braga Strike Team.

Yoda stalemated ROTS Sidious and Luke is easily on DE Sidious' level which means they are all vastly above Vitaite and this team as well. An argument can be made for Vitiate or the strike team of course.

This is why the logic you're following doesn't work tbh.
Starkiller didn't pull down any Imperial Star Destroyer; this is a misconception.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was in the process of crashing by itself after suffering extensive damage in a battle above Coruscant. Starkiller only managed to alter its trajectory with his Force abilities and this took some time.

If Starkiller was 'actually' capable of pulling down an Imperial Star Destroyer in perfect condition and mid-flight, he would have one-shotted Darth Vader and perhaps even Darth Sidious.

Luke Skywalker outdueled Sidious in a strictly melee-oriented clash and this is not surprising. Sidious's mistake was to assume that he could outduel Luke Skywalker in every setting after his earlier victory in a clash of similar nature.

If you are power-scaling then Tulak Hord, Darth Jadus and Darth Nihilus have some fantastic feats and they are officially inferior to Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Starkiller was 'actually' capable of pulling down an Imperial Star Destroyer in perfect condition and mid-flight, he would have one-shotted Darth Vader and perhaps even Darth Sidious.
Or... Vader and Sidious are that good?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, I'm not wasting my time anymore. Legend accusing me of blatant PT fanboyism is hypocrisy and irony beyond measure.
It was not my intention to offend you; perhaps you are different from those fans whom I am pointing a finger at. I am not mentioning names but they know.

However, if you think that you are different from those, then make your stance clear with direct statements. Whats with the subtle ways to challenge an argument and leveling accusations on the argument-maker?

Originally posted by Stigma
Or... Vader and Sidious are that good?
Your point could be entertained if Starkiller had actually pulled down an Imperial Star Destroyer in perfect condition with his sheer raw power and Force abilities from the space. But this is not the case.

Vitiate dies.

Dooku defeated a stronger strike team who had the element of surprise, while drugged.

I don't see how he possibly loses this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Starkiller didn't pull down any Imperial Star Destroyer; this is a misconception.

The Imperial Star Destroyer was in the process of crashing by itself after suffering extensive damage in a battle above Coruscant. Starkiller only managed to alter its trajectory with his Force abilities and this took some time.
I know what you are referring to, I was using that against SK a few weeks ago actually. Just thought I'd cut it short.



Even what he did is still uber impressive tbh.

Which is why I didnt say Luke > Sidious but he is still DE Sidious level.



And again, with you logic, Vitiate's feats actually elevate Sidious cause Vitiate is officially inferior to Sidious.

Originally posted by Selenial
Dooku defeated a stronger strike team who had the element of surprise, while drugged.

I don't see how he possibly loses this.

Lmao

Do any unbiased posters( i,e not Neph or Legend) really think this team could beat anyone other than low tier characters?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao

None of these combatants are even close to Ventress tier. As for the other two, Warren Sedoru said numerous times he wasn't a fighter, and Leeha was picked for her knowledge of Stealth Tech. They're obviously decent fighters, but not actually the three best warriors in the order.

The nightsisters that went with Ventress were however the two best fighters in a clan of warriors feared throughout the galaxy for their strength.

Please, explain what part of my sentence is "lmao" worthy. Surely not that you think those two sisters are featless, since this is ****ing Leeha Narezz. Surely not that the accolades mean nothing unless backed up.... Because this is ****ing Warren Sedoru.

Or maybe you think Tol Braga > Ventress. In which case, the only response really is just:
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao

Originally posted by Selenial
None of these combatants are even close to Ventress tier. As for the other two, Warren Sedoru said numerous times he wasn't a fighter, and Leeha was picked for her knowledge of Stealth Tech.

Warren wasn't the fighter he used to be. But he used to be the greatest Jedi warrior of his time, so that still leaves room for him to be extremely potent. And Leeha was able to fight through the lions share of the defenses on Vitiate's fortress. Meaning masses of elite Sith and Imperial Guardsmen, both groups I'd rank above nightsisters.

Anyway, quibble all you want, it's stated 3 seperate times that these were the cream of the crop.

Originally posted by Selenial
They're obviously decent fighters, but not actually the three best warriors in the order.

Three separate sources all explicitly state otherwise. As much as I don't respect your opinion compared to canon sources.... oh wait thats the end of that sentence.

Originally posted by Selenial
The nightsisters that went with Ventress were however the two best fighters in a clan of warriors feared throughout the galaxy for their strength.

Feared more than the Jedi? Who gives a shit, they're Nightsisters. When challenging someone to a lightsaber duel, I'll pick the Jedi over a Nightsister 80 times out of 10. Since you know, they actually use them.

Originally posted by Selenial
Please, explain what part of my sentence is "lmao" worthy. Surely not that you think those two sisters are featless, since this is ****ing Leeha Narezz. Surely not that the accolades mean nothing unless backed up.... Because this is ****ing Warren Sedoru.

Or maybe you think Tol Braga > Ventress. In which case, the only response really is just:

Lol, you're so assblasted.

Originally posted by carthage
Do any unbiased posters( i,e not Neph or Legend) really think this team could beat anyone other than low tier characters?
Of course not. The team promptly dies.

Neph, when you mean you'd put Imperial Guardsmen above Nightsisters, you're not referring to the two that attacked Dooku, are you?

Originally posted by carthage
Do any unbiased posters( i,e not Neph or Legend) really think this team could beat anyone other than low tier characters?

This is my very first post on this site, so I'd say I'm pretty unbiased. That said, I don't think these three could beat Dooku. Leeha and Warren aren't even Jedi Masters. If they really were among the strongest members of the order, you'd think they would have received the order's highest rank. Neither of them ever shows any skills or powers that your average run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight doesn't have. It's also worth mentioning that Braga built this team to turn Vitiate to the light side, not to kill him. Warren and Leeha were chosen less for their combative skills than for their negotiation and insight. To the extent that the team had to fight, it was pretty clear that Braga and HoT were the ones who were supposed to do the majority of the work.

The way I see this playing out is Warren and Leeha are taken out fairly early by Dooku's superior swordsmanship or a blast of Force lightning. Then it's just a 1 on 1 with Braga, who could probably hold out for a while, but just doesn't have anything that could really threaten Dooku.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
This is my very first post on this site, so I'd say I'm pretty unbiased. That said, I don't think these three could beat Dooku. Leeha and Warren aren't even Jedi Masters. If they really were among the strongest members of the order, you'd think they would have received the order's highest rank. Neither of them ever shows any skills or powers that your average run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight doesn't have. It's also worth mentioning that Braga built this team to turn Vitiate to the light side, not to kill him. Warren and Leeha were chosen less for their combative skills than for their negotiation and insight. To the extent that the team had to fight, it was pretty clear that Braga and HoT were the ones who were supposed to do the majority of the work.

The way I see this playing out is Warren and Leeha are taken out fairly early by Dooku's superior swordsmanship or a blast of Force lightning. Then it's just a 1 on 1 with Braga, who could probably hold out for a while, but just doesn't have anything that could really threaten Dooku. Welcome and well said.

I like him. He will serve me well.

Nothing serves you well you a****le.

hateful

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
This is my very first post on this site, so I'd say I'm pretty unbiased. That said, I don't think these three could beat Dooku. Leeha and Warren aren't even Jedi Masters. If they really were among the strongest members of the order, you'd think they would have received the order's highest rank. Neither of them ever shows any skills or powers that your average run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight doesn't have. It's also worth mentioning that Braga built this team to turn Vitiate to the light side, not to kill him. Warren and Leeha were chosen less for their combative skills than for their negotiation and insight. To the extent that the team had to fight, it was pretty clear that Braga and HoT were the ones who were supposed to do the majority of the work.

All of this is pretty dumb, tbh.

All of this is pretty spot-on.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
Braga, who could probably hold out for a while, but just doesn't have anything that could really threaten Dooku.
Dooku's lightsaber... takes its Tol.

Beanzz we should be friends.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, when you mean you'd put Imperial Guardsmen above Nightsisters, you're not referring to the two that attacked Dooku, are you?

I mean that the average IG > the average Nightsister. I do think 1 of the sisters that attacked Dooku would likely have been butchered by the fortresses defenses though, were she to take Leeha's place.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
hateful I'm sorry, man.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
This is my very first post on this site, so I'd say I'm pretty unbiased. That said, I don't think these three could beat Dooku. Leeha and Warren aren't even Jedi Masters. If they really were among the strongest members of the order, you'd think they would have received the order's highest rank. Neither of them ever shows any skills or powers that your average run-of-the-mill Jedi Knight doesn't have.
Ranks do not exclusively determine skill and power. Yes, a Jedi Master is supposed to be more learned and experienced then a Jedi of lesser rank on average, but this is not necessary in practice. Jedi get promoted to the rank of Jedi Master for different reasons and not strictly on the basis of their prowess in combat.

For example, Revan became the most powerful and experienced Jedi of the Order during the course of Mandalorian Wars and he still held the rank of Jedi Knight during this time. He was granted the rank of Jedi Master after the Jedi Civil War.

When Mandalorian Wars are officially discussed in the lore in-universe fashion], Revan, Malak and Meetra Surik are hailed as the greatest heroes of the Jedi Order. Members of the Jedi High Council of this era do not match the fame and accomplishments of Revan, Malak and Surik.

Prior to confrontation with Vitiate, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz were not Jedi Masters but they were battle-hardened Jedi Knights nonetheless. Sedoru, in particular, could read the minds of others .

Though Sedoru and Narezz may lack in showings in comparison to many characters, they are officially stated to be among the finest of the Jedi Order. As neutral observors, we should take official disclosures seriously.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
It's also worth mentioning that Braga built this team to turn Vitiate to the light side, not to kill him. Warren and Leeha were chosen less for their combative skills than for their negotiation and insight. To the extent that the team had to fight, it was pretty clear that Braga and HoT were the ones who were supposed to do the majority of the work.
It was Tol Braga's idea to attempt to turn Vitiate to the Light Side but the Jedi Strike Team was officially tasked to arrest Vitiate using any means necessary.

MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order. (From Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Do you really think that the Jedi would take the risk of infiltrating an Imperial fortress and fight through its defenses, only to proceed to negotiate with the Emperor?

This was a daring and extremely risky mission and Jedi lacking in experience, power and/or skill would not be ideal candidates for it. By all accounts, Vitiate posed greatest threat to the existence of the Jedi Order in galactic history.

Sedoru and Narezz weren't just supposed to negotiate with Vitiate; they were supposed to assist Braga and Hero of Tython in the confrontation, if it occurs. Evidently, Sedoru and Narezz activated their Lightsabers to confront Vitiate after sensing his hostility; watch the footage on YouTube.

By the way, Narezz and Hero of Tython independently fought through the defenses of the Imperial fortress to reach the position of Vitiate. Not sure about Braga and Sedoru though.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
The way I see this playing out is Warren and Leeha are taken out fairly early by Dooku's superior swordsmanship or a blast of Force lightning. Then it's just a 1 on 1 with Braga, who could probably hold out for a while, but just doesn't have anything that could really threaten Dooku.
Your assumptions are far-fetched.

Legend is right, neither were there to negotiate. They immediately ignite their sabers when Vitiate starts talking and don't even try to say anything. Neither are diplomats, they were brought to fight through the defenses and detain Vitiate in combat. As is made clear by their power, strength, resolve and for not knowing the meaning of failure being repeatedly touted as why they were chosen.

I disagree with that notion too. They were indeed among the most capable jedi of their era. However, to say that only Vitiate is guaranteed a victory against them is something I disagree with far more strongly.

Of course. I mean, Tulak Hord could beat them obviously.

Why do you hate Sidious Neph? Or do you simply hate Tempest?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Warren wasn't the fighter he used to be. But he used to be the greatest Jedi warrior of his time, so that still leaves room for him to be extremely potent. And Leeha was able to fight through the lions share of the defenses on Vitiate's fortress. Meaning masses of elite Sith and Imperial Guardsmen, both groups I'd rank above nightsisters.

Anyway, quibble all you want, it's stated 3 seperate times that these were the cream of the crop.

Wrong. He "wasn't a warrior". There is nothing about him simply deteriorating, he says himself that he is not a fighter any more.

And no, actually, it's not definitively said they're the best merely among the best, there's a difference.



Shame these sisters trained in Jedi Combat and held off Count Dooku then, your argument's pretty invalid there Neph.



Idk how you define "The Jedi are better because Jedi are better than Nightsisters" as "assblasted" but ok

Actually it definitely said that they're best. It doesn't say their some of the best, the exact words are:

"I'm putting together a team of our best and brightest. Jedi that don't know the meaning of failure." - Tol Braga

"MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order." - TOR loading screen

"With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side."

"I can't even fight droids, but I'm totes one of the best Jedi in the Order."

"I got beat up by some random politician, but I'm totes the Chosen One."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ranks do not exclusively determine skill and power. Yes, a Jedi Master is supposed to be more learned and experienced then a Jedi of lesser rank on average, but this is not necessary in practice. Jedi get promoted to the rank of Jedi Master for different reasons and not strictly on the basis of their prowess in combat.

For example, Revan became the most powerful and experienced Jedi of the Order during the course of Mandalorian Wars and he still held the rank of Jedi Knight during this time. He was granted the rank of Jedi Master after the Jedi Civil War.

When Mandalorian Wars are officially discussed in the lore in-universe fashion], Revan, Malak and Meetra Surik are hailed as the greatest heroes of the Jedi Order. Members of the Jedi High Council of this era do not match the fame and accomplishments of Revan, Malak and Surik.

Prior to confrontation with Vitiate, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz were not Jedi Masters but they were battle-hardened Jedi Knights nonetheless. Sedoru, in particular, could read the minds of others .

Though Sedoru and Narezz may lack in showings in comparison to many characters, they are officially stated to be among the finest of the Jedi Order. As neutral observors, we should take official disclosures seriously.

There are always exceptions to granting ranks, but in this case, there doesn't seem to be any reason to not have granted Warren and Leeha that rank if they really were that strong. They weren't schismatics who defied the Council like Revan and Co. They were two ordinary Jedi who went on missions and evidently completed them to the satisfaction of the Council. There is no discernable reason for the Council to withhold that rank if they truly deserve it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It was Tol Braga's idea to attempt to turn Vitiate to the Light Side but the Jedi Strike Team was officially tasked to arrest Vitiate using any means necessary.

MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order. (From Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Do you really think that the Jedi would take the risk of infiltrating an Imperial fortress and fight through its defenses, only to proceed to negotiate with the Emperor?

This was a daring and extremely risky mission and Jedi lacking in experience, power and/or skill would not be ideal candidates for it. By all accounts, Vitiate posed greatest threat to the existence of the Jedi Order in galactic history.

Sedoru and Narezz weren't just supposed to negotiate with Vitiate; they were supposed to assist Braga and Hero of Tython in the confrontation, if it occurs. Evidently, Sedoru and Narezz activated their Lightsabers to confront Vitiate after sensing his hostility; watch the footage on YouTube.

By the way, Narezz and Hero of Tython independently fought through the defenses of the Imperial fortress to reach the position of Vitiate. Not sure about Braga and Sedoru though.

Warren and Narezz were expected to defend themselves to some extent. There's no doubt they were capable enough in combat to get to the throne room. But once the team was assembled, they initially tried to talk to Vitiate rather than fight him. They straight up invited him to Tython. They asked him to join them of his own free will.

If it came down to a fight though, Warren and Leeha were clearly much weaker than Braga and HoT. Any direct, combative help they could provide would be minimal. Unless they so severely underestimated Vitiate's power that they thought that minimal help was all the extra help they needed, then the inference to be drawn is that they were there because their strengths were in areas other than direct combat. Warren's ability to sense thoughts and intentions would come in handy as an early warning system for example. Braga and HoT engage Vitiate physically while they hang back and offer Force-based support. Instead, though, Vitiate forced the issue by launching a massive lightning attack that they were forced to directly contend with, and they crumbled quickly.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your assumptions are far-fetched.
But still backed up the actual evidence and reasonable inferences drawn from the evidence.

The Hero of Tython wasn't a Master either and she could kicks all their asses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"I got beat up by some random politician, but I'm totes the Chosen One."
Yeah, Anakin is pretty featless, just like Warren...oh wait.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually it definitely said that they're best. It doesn't say their some of the best, the exact words are:

"I'm putting together a team of our best and brightest. Jedi that don't know the meaning of failure." - Tol Braga

"MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order." - TOR loading screen

"With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side."

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

Saesee Tiin > Yoda > Anakin > Obi-Wan. That's some pretty impressive logic.

You should probably revisit a few basic "How to's" on the English Language.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
There are always exceptions to granting ranks, but in this case, there doesn't seem to be any reason to not have granted Warren and Leeha that rank if they really were that strong. They weren't schismatics who defied the Council like Revan and Co. They were two ordinary Jedi who went on missions and evidently completed them to the satisfaction of the Council. There is no discernable reason for the Council to withhold that rank if they truly deserve it.
My friend, Hero of Tython also held the rank of Jedi Knight prior to/during the time of his confrontation with Vitiate in spite of his earlier accomplishments.

I get the impression that the Jedi Order does not rush into promoting Jedi to the rank of Jedi Master in strenuous times; the Jedi Order of TOR era was preoccupied with war and issues of the Republic, and its ceremonial events would take a back seat under the shadow of more pressing matters.

As for Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, I cannot say much about why they haven't been promoted to the rank of Jedi Master prior to confrontation with Vitiate. Perhaps they were not willing to train padawans and/or take additional responsibilities affiliated with the rank? Perhaps they have controversial history? In contrast, Hero of Tython was tutoring Kira Carsen and Tol Braga was tutoring Sedoru (among other undisclosed padawans).

Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Narezz, in particular, had the reputation of never failing in her missions. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Sedoru and Narezz weren't lacking in quality or combat prowess.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
Warren and Narezz were expected to defend themselves to some extent. There's no doubt they were capable enough in combat to get to the throne room. But once the team was assembled, they initially tried to talk to Vitiate rather than fight him. They straight up invited him to Tython. They asked him to join them of his own free will.
If I remember the chain of events correctly; When Sedoru, Narezz and Braga reached Emperor's throne, Hero of Tython reacted with surprise and excitement. Sedoru and Braga then communicated with Hero of Tython (one of them stated that the Force is a powerful ally or something similar). Then Vitiate joined the conversation and Braga attempted to reason with him, to no avail. Sedoru and Narezz did not try to reason with Vitiate at any point though, they were ready to attack him instead.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
If it came down to a fight though, Warren and Leeha were clearly much weaker than Braga and HoT. Any direct, combative help they could provide would be minimal. Unless they so severely underestimated Vitiate's power that they thought that minimal help was all the extra help they needed, then the inference to be drawn is that they were there because their strengths were in areas other than direct combat. Warren's ability to sense thoughts and intentions would come in handy as an early warning system for example. Braga and HoT engage Vitiate physically while they hang back and offer Force-based support. Instead, though, Vitiate forced the issue by launching a massive lightning attack that they were forced to directly contend with, and they crumbled quickly.
Braga and Hero of Tython were evidently stronger then Sedoru and Narezz but I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Sedoru and Narezz were weak. Yes, Sedoru and Narezz were no match for Vitiate but this doesn't imply that they were actually weak or average (both are officially above-average).

It is important to understand that majority in the mythos cannot contend with Vitiate; most would drop like flies in a confrontation with him. It is not a stretch to assume that Vitiate can one-shot even the likes of Count Dooku.

Braga and Hero of Tython managed to resist Vitiate's assault to some extent because both were unusually strong. Right before this confrontation, Emperor's Wrath admitted that in a span of centuries, he found Hero of Tython most challenging and superior to any Jedi he have encountered before.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
But still backed up the actual evidence and reasonable inferences drawn from the evidence.
It is all speculation, my friend.

We don't know if Dooku can outduel Jedi of such repute simultaneously. An argument can be made that Dooku might be superior duelist then each Jedi in question but a Strike Team of competent warriors is a different matter.

Braga can occupy Dooku on his own while the other 2 Jedi use their powers to attack Dooku from behind. I don't see Dooku lasting under such pressure.

It shall be kept in mind that Sedoru, Narezz and Braga weren't (individually) fodder for Hero of Tython; they were boss-level opponents instead. And I don't think that Dooku is better then Hero of Tython.

Dooku slaughters these featless losers

Dooku in a decent fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My friend, Hero of Tython also held the rank of Jedi Knight prior to/during the time of his confrontation with Vitiate in spite of his earlier accomplishments.

I get the impression that the Jedi Order does not rush into promoting Jedi to the rank of Jedi Master in strenuous times; the Jedi Order of TOR era was preoccupied with war and issues of the Republic, and its ceremonial events would take a back seat under the shadow of more pressing matters.

As for Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, I cannot say much about why they haven't been promoted to the rank of Jedi Master prior to confrontation with Vitiate. Perhaps they were not willing to train padawans and/or take additional responsibilities affiliated with the rank? Perhaps they have controversial history? In contrast, Hero of Tython was tutoring Kira Carsen and Tol Braga was tutoring Sedoru (among other undisclosed padawans).

Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Narezz, in particular, had the reputation of never failing in her missions. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Sedoru and Narezz weren't lacking in quality or combat prowess.

HoT had been a Jedi for only about a year by that point. Warren and Leeha had been around much longer. The Council had plenty of time to promote them. If they were offered the promotion and turned it down, that's one thing. But there's nothing that indicates that.

In any case, by this point both Warren and Leeha have shown a distinct lack of combat prowess. Warren admits to HoT that he can't keep up with simple battle droids anymore. On Hoth, Leeha gets beaten by turrets. Turrets. Not even droids. She has to depend on HoT to get out of that situation. She may have "never known failure" in the sense that she hasn't gotten killed, but she only succeeded in that particular mission by the skin of her teeth, and only because she relied on the merits of a more powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If I remember the chain of events correctly; When Sedoru, Narezz and Braga reached Emperor's throne, Hero of Tython reacted with surprise and excitement. Sedoru and Braga then communicated with Hero of Tython (one of them stated that the Force is a powerful ally or something similar). Then Vitiate joined the conversation and Braga attempted to reason with him, to no avail. Sedoru and Narezz did not try to reason with Vitiate at any point though, they were ready to attack him instead.

They also really didn't have much time to say anything. Vitiate's response to Braga was a quick evil villain rant and then BOOM! Lightning storm! It was an idiotic plan to begin with, but Vitiate didn't even give them time to implement it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Braga and Hero of Tython were evidently stronger then Sedoru and Narezz but I wouldn't go as far as to assert that Sedoru and Narezz were weak. Yes, Sedoru and Narezz were no match for Vitiate but this doesn't imply that they were actually weak or average (both are officially above-average).

It doesn't matter how many times Braga or any other source say they are among the best in the Order: nothing we've seen them do actually justifies those accolades. Unless you want us to assume they have some vast well of Force-potential and fencing techniques, and that we should ascribe to them every possible Force power that they could theoretically have but just never bother to use, then we'll work with what we actually see. And from what we actually see, they're average, at best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is important to understand that majority in the mythos cannot contend with Vitiate; most would drop like flies in a confrontation with him. It is not a stretch to assume that Vitiate can one-shot even the likes of Count Dooku.

Braga and Hero of Tython managed to resist Vitiate's assault to some extent because both were unusually strong. Right before this confrontation, Emperor's Wrath admitted that in a span of centuries, he found Hero of Tython most challenging and superior to any Jedi he have encountered before.

That all speaks well for Braga and HoT, but it doesn't change the fact that Warren and Leeha still have not shown anything beyond what an average Jedi Knight could accomplish.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is all speculation, my friend.

We don't know if Dooku can outduel Jedi of such repute simultaneously. An argument can be made that Dooku might be superior duelist then each Jedi in question but a Strike Team of competent warriors is a different matter.

Braga can occupy Dooku on his own while the other 2 Jedi use their powers to attack Dooku from behind. I don't see Dooku lasting under such pressure.

Only insofar as any hypothesis is technically speculation.

We know Dooku is capable of dealing with as many as four Jedi comfortably. His entire fighting style in that situation revolves around maneuvering so that only one opponent can come at him at a time. Of these three, the actual evidence strongly suggests that only Braga would be able to keep up with him for any appreciable time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It shall be kept in mind that Sedoru, Narezz and Braga weren't (individually) fodder for Hero of Tython; they were boss-level opponents instead. And I don't think that Dooku is better then Hero of Tython.

It shall also be kept in mind that other boss-level opponents for HoT include: battle droids, pirates, wampas, and non-Force-sensitive Imperials. Would all of those actually be legit threats to a Jedi of HoT's caliber? If so, then what does it say about the quality of the Jedi when any two-bit Imp could be considered a "boss-level opponent?" Or is it just a game mechanic to keep the game interesting and not actually indicative of the skills those opponents actually possess?

@ Darth Beanzz, I see you learn the hard way about LeGenD.

Good luck and a lot of patience, my friend.

@DarthBeanzz

Your debating skills are impressive. Credit where due.

I admit that you have caught me off-guard here. I'll see if I can find some counterarguments.

Originally posted by Stigma
@ Darth Beanzz, I see you learn the hard way about LeGenD.

Good luck and a lot of patience, my friend.
I think that you should learn a thing or two from him about debating.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I think that you should learn a thing or two from him about debating. Thus far we all learned that you are wrong. Nothing new.

Now, go on and entertain us with LeGenD!logic

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@DarthBeanzz

Your debating skills are impressive. Credit where due. http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkhwy6SSZZ1qe74fm.gif

To be fair, anyone's debating skills compared to LeGenD's are impressive.

Still, DarthBeanzz seems like a cool guy that knows his staff.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
On Hoth, Leeha gets beaten by turrets. Turrets. Not even droids. She has to depend on HoT to get out of that situation.

Wasn't that a trick to trap the Imperial forces? Also they were heavy turrets, nothing to sneeze at.

Originally posted by Stigma
To be fair, anyone's debating skills compared to LeGenD's are impressive.
Really?

I have seen nothing from so far that gives the impression that you are a gifted debater.

You are only good at trolling and your just doing that in this thread as expected.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Count Dooku schools this Strike Team because he is the league of Vitiate.

I just ask, why do you debate if it's so obvious that you will choose TOR characters over anyone else at least the majority of the time? In every debate I've seen you in you've tend to go for those characters. Why?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These Jedi were chosen by the Jedi High Council among thousands of options to tackle the greatest threat to the Jedi Order in the galaxy in an era when Jedi were supposedly at the pinnacle of their preparedness and competence.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t607243.html

Logically, each is a powerhouse. Collectively, these Jedi are nearly unstoppable and/or capable of tackling most threats in the galaxy.

But since none of them have been depicted collapsing a bridge at individual level and they collectively lost to the most powerful being in the galactic history in a confrontation, so they must be collectively inferior to Count Dooku as well since he have collapsed bridges, lifted rocks, contended with some of the greats of his time and vice versa. Apparently every well-known Tom, D*** & Harry of PT/OT era can tackle a Strike Team of some of the most powerful Jedi because Vitiate managed to. Logic, official ground realities and power-scaling be damned.

Really Dooku is known as one of the greatest force weilders of all time, and one of the greatest duelist having dueling feats greater than anyone here even as a team. He's been described by Yoda as being the greatest student in all of the Jedi orders 25,000 year old history. Coming from Yoda that's pretty big. Also being able to go toe to toe with Yoda is also very impressive. Also Dooku IMHO is above the majority to all of the old republic Duelsit and a lot of their force weilders. I say a lot, but I don't say all.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I just ask, why do you debate if it's so obvious that you will choose TOR characters over anyone else at least the majority of the time? In every debate I've seen you in you've tend to go for those characters. Why? Tbf, almost everyone's alignment and choices are transparent and predictable at this point.

Originally posted by Sinious
Tbf, almost everyone's alignment and choices are transparent and predictable at this point.

Completely irrelevant to his post.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I just ask, why do you debate if it's so obvious that you will choose TOR characters over anyone else at least the majority of the time? In every debate I've seen you in you've tend to go for those characters. Why?
I do not favor TOR timeline characters in debates just for the sake of them being TOR timeline characters, if this is your intended point.

I do take an issue with lowballing of TOR timeline champions at times.

As far as preferences are concerned; if my history is tilted towards TOR timeline based content, your history is tilted towards PT/OT/Legacy timeline based content. So why point the finger at me?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not favor TOR timeline characters in debates just for the sake of them being TOR timeline characters, if this is your intended point.

I do take an issue with lowballing of TOR timeline champions at times.

As far as preferences are concerned; if my history is tilted towards TOR timeline based content, your history is tilted towards PT/OT/Legacy timeline based content. So why point the finger at me?

mmm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even the likes of "I" am surprised by SunRazor's argumentation in favor of Vrook Lamar.

http://rs1209.pbsrc.com/albums/cc392/geekinblue/Indiana%20Jones%20Livejournal%20Icons/hmm.jpg~c200

@SunRazor

Now that you are closer then ever at experiencing the Dark Side, join the TOR camp and help it in spreading its glory and reach across the galaxy.

http://i0.wp.com/www.xamxamsays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Valkorion-capture.jpg

Before you join, you will have to swore an oath to never ever debate in favor of a PT/OT/Legacy era character until "I" give you permission to.

mmm

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
HoT had been a Jedi for only about a year by that point. Warren and Leeha had been around much longer. The Council had plenty of time to promote them. If they were offered the promotion and turned it down, that's one thing. But there's nothing that indicates that.
It is unclear when Hero of Tython joined the Jedi Order but he was a padawan prior to his arrival on Tython (the "starting point" of his story in SWTOR). Therefore, he had been a Jedi for much longer duration by that point.

One of the strongest padawans the Jedi have seen for generations races into peril when a surprise attack by savage native warriors nearly devastates the Order on Tython. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

---

Leeha Narezz was also young. No?

---

Yes, Warren Sedoru had been around for much longer period but he suffered a setback from several near-death experiences in battles of the Great Galactic War and felt that his connection to the Force had waned as a consequence. Due to this, he volunteered to be retrained in the ways of the Jedi and Tol Braga took the responsibility of fixing his issues. Therefore, becoming a Jedi Master was not on the cards for him until his issues had been addressed.

Yes, I feel that Sedoru's story does not makes much sense but a lot about Star Wars does not makes much sense.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
In any case, by this point both Warren and Leeha have shown a distinct lack of combat prowess. Warren admits to HoT that he can't keep up with simple battle droids anymore. On Hoth, Leeha gets beaten by turrets. Turrets. Not even droids. She has to depend on HoT to get out of that situation. She may have "never known failure" in the sense that she hasn't gotten killed, but she only succeeded in that particular mission by the skin of her teeth, and only because she relied on the merits of a more powerful Jedi.
To be honest, I also felt (during my gameplay session) that Sedoru and Narezz had been poorly depicted in Balmorra and Hoth respectively. This is in total contradiction to their reputation in the lore as elite Jedi warriors. However, we need to keep in mind that the game itself lacks in realism. Balmorra and Hoth had been turned into battlegrounds between the Republic and Sith Empire (for years) and it is likely that Sedoru and Narezz had been posted there for a prolonged time and could have been strained from stresses of combat. Therefore, it makes sense for the Jedi Order to dispatch Hero of Tython to assist them in story.

Regardless, I blame authors for poor story-telling.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
They also really didn't have much time to say anything. Vitiate's response to Braga was a quick evil villain rant and then BOOM! Lightning storm! It was an idiotic plan to begin with, but Vitiate didn't even give them time to implement it.
Vitiate granted the Jedi sufficient time to express their intent. Though only Tol Braga and Hero of Tython conversed with him.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
It doesn't matter how many times Braga or any other source say they are among the best in the Order: nothing we've seen them do actually justifies those accolades. Unless you want us to assume they have some vast well of Force-potential and fencing techniques, and that we should ascribe to them every possible Force power that they could theoretically have but just never bother to use, then we'll work with what we actually see. And from what we actually see, they're average, at best.
I understand your point of view but is it wise to restrict our judgment to limited portrayal of Sedoru and Narezz?

Sometimes well-known characters have bad days (e.g. Count Dooku captured by pirates) or are can be poorly portrayed in a game (e.g. Marka Ragnos in Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy).

If we evaluate Marka Ragnos on the basis of his depiction in Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (only), we will get the impression that he sucks or is average. However, Marka Ragnos is officially among the most powerful Sith in galactic history and ruled the Empire for 100 years.

We should be fair and balanced in our judgments, my friend. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
That all speaks well for Braga and HoT, but it doesn't change the fact that Warren and Leeha still have not shown anything beyond what an average Jedi Knight could accomplish.
See above

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
Only insofar as any hypothesis is technically speculation.

We know Dooku is capable of dealing with as many as four Jedi comfortably. His entire fighting style in that situation revolves around maneuvering so that only one opponent can come at him at a time. Of these three, the actual evidence strongly suggests that only Braga would be able to keep up with him for any appreciable time.
4 Jedi at a time? Any event that I am missing?

While your point is interesting, I don't see how Dooku can prevent each Jedi in the Strike Team from attacking him while contending with one of them.

If Braga occupies Dooku, the other two Jedi would logically get the opportunity to use their Force powers against Dooku to disorient him.

Of-course, we can only speculate about this hypothetical contest. However, it stands to reason that 3 powerful Jedi can overwhelm Dooku in a confrontation.

Originally posted by DarthBeanzz
It shall also be kept in mind that other boss-level opponents for HoT include: battle droids, pirates, wampas, and non-Force-sensitive Imperials. Would all of those actually be legit threats to a Jedi of HoT's caliber? If so, then what does it say about the quality of the Jedi when any two-bit Imp could be considered a "boss-level opponent?" Or is it just a game mechanic to keep the game interesting and not actually indicative of the skills those opponents actually possess?
While I understand that some characters are boss-level for the sake of increasing the difficulty of the game and make it interesting, but it isn't difficult to identity true bosses in a game since the in-game lore hypes them and highlight them as major threats.

---

B/W This have been a good debating experience. I hope that KMC gets more debaters like you.

Originally posted by Selenial
mmm



mmm
http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/excuse-me.jpg

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not favor TOR timeline characters in debates just for the sake of them being TOR timeline characters, if this is your intended point.

I do take an issue with lowballing of TOR timeline champions at times.

As far as preferences are concerned; if my history is tilted towards TOR timeline based content, your history is tilted towards PT/OT/Legacy timeline based content. So why point the finger at me?

What makes you so sure that's where my preferences are?I'm fair in all my judgements. I have made choices for TOR republic Jedi and Sith in the past over characters in PT/OT/Legacy time lines. Ask before you assume, but thank you for answering my question.