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Fight takes place in the Rebuilt Jedi Enclave.

Just curious to see what people thought of this match-up.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Qui-Gon takes this easily.

Reasons, please.

Was able to hold off Darth Maul which is more impressive then anything Vrook could dream of even coming close to doing, the guy is virtually featless.

Vrook isn't featless, and how is Qui-Gon winning Force?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vrook isn't featless, and how is Qui-Gon winning Force?

Show me one thing that Vrook has done to put him above Qui-Gon's perfect mastery of the force?

and if you show me a quote from the guide, I will flip my desk.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Show me one thing that Vrook has done to put him above Qui-Gon's perfect mastery of the force?

and if you show me a quote from the guide, I will flip my desk.

I don't need quotes from the guide, lol. Vrook has placed the Exile in Stasis, and in the DS version of the game, he also pushes the Exile and her party down with TK before Stunning them all. He's also more powerful than Kavar, who has a slew of nice TK/Force Stun feats. And he's mastered the various Force Forms except Channel, which is an advantage.

Then there's Vrook, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell being collectively powerful enough to cut the Exile off from the Force, and the trio also telekinetically rebuilt the destroyed Jedi Enclave. It's all on my RT.

Qui-Gon's mastery of the Force is not perfect, and we're talking about combat-relevant powers. Telekinesis is probably the only power he can bring to a showdown between him and Vrook.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't need quotes from the guide, lol. Vrook has placed the Exile in Stasis, and in the DS version of the game,

Vat? That was with the help of the other masters.

DS isn't canon.



Non canon. Honestly, you wanna pull that stuff about "I view this as something that coulda happened but didn't"

But that disappears with Kyle becoming Emperor.

Jaden stalemating Kyle

and Bane moving a moon.




We've been through this...



Yes, i've seen the reaching bud.

1 - stasis that the Exile didn't even resist in the LS ending. DS is not canon.



the only power he even needs. At least he's got showing in that regard, versus Vrook being kinda featless.

Vrook puts him in stasis and pulls his head off.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Vat? That was with the help of the other masters.

DS isn't canon.

His hand is the only one that comes up. So he wasn't aided by the Masters for the Stasis, only the Sever Force. If you disagree, could you show me footage where all the Masters raise their hands in unison to place the Exile in Stasis?



If you can show me why they'd be a power disparity between Vrook's LS and DS storyline incarnations, then I'll agree to the feats not being usable. Otherwise, it's the same Vrook, just under different circumstances and in different incidents.

1. That has nothing to do with power, lol. As I said, it never happens, but it could happen in an alternate reality. That's basically how canon in most fictions work.

2. On a dark side nexus and with the Scepter of Ragnos, you mean?

3. That was outright retconned, and it's not a DS ending/counterpart to a game. That's a terrible example that's completely irrelevant to my point.



Nobody's reaching, lol.

You don't need DS to select the option that you don't want to be cut off from the Force (there are multiple non-DS options, and some of them involve you trying to resist). Whether you attempt to resist or not, you're put in Stasis.



Vrook TK'd the Exile's party down and he's telekinetically rebuilt the Jedi Enclave with the other Masters (which you didn't address, so concession accepted).

Nova, just admit you're a KOTOR wanker and we'll all agree Vrook wins

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nova, just admit you're a KOTOR wanker and we'll all agree Vrook wins

Saying that I wank/lowball any single era in general is pretty flawed. I wank every era.

Also, Fated would never agree that way, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Saying that I wank/lowball any single era in general is pretty flawed. I wank every era.

Also, Fated would never agree that way, lol.

You don't wank SWTOR enough, infidel.

You can be openly biased towards an era and still force people to bend the knee.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You don't wank SWTOR enough, infidel.

You can be openly biased towards an era and still force people to bend the knee.

1. I rank TOR characters higher than most here, lol. Also, calling me a KotOR fanboy in the presence of DarthAnt66 is insulting to him.

2. Not Fated.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I rank TOR characters higher than most here, lol. Also, calling me a KotOR fanboy in the presence of DarthAnt66 is insulting to him.

2. Not Fated.

1. Lol @ overwanking Revan being a thing.

2. Why not? Anyone can bend the knee in the face of a great argument. If not, then it's they who isn't objective.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Saying that I wank/lowball any single era in general is pretty flawed. I wank every era.

Also, Fated would never agree that way, lol.

Yeah, there's no problem with that. But there's a fine line between reaching, and facts lol.

Also, yeah, I'd never agree. QGJ is held at a high esteem.

Unfortunately, i work tomorrow. And i gotta wake up early(5 AM) so i'll respond as soon as I can.

P.S there's a reason why I asked for the rights to the QGJ RT

So you're saying that, no matter how good the argument, Qui Gon Jinn can't be inferior to Vrook?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Lol @ overwanking Revan being a thing.

2. Why not? Anyone can bend the knee in the face of a great argument. If not, then it's they who isn't objective.

1. lol @ Ant only wanking Revan amongst the KotOR pantheon.

2. And you're dealing with Fated, here.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah, there's no problem with that. But there's a fine line between reaching, and facts lol.

Also, yeah, I'd never agree. QGJ is held at a high esteem.

Unfortunately, i work tomorrow. And i gotta wake up early(5 AM) so i'll respond as soon as I can.

P.S there's a reason why I asked for the rights to the QGJ RT

1. The facts are the feats, which I've given you. The thing is, you keep trying to worm your way out of the facts with excuses, and it's getting frustrating.

2. Your indelible stance on certain characters means it'll be virtually impossible to persuade you that they'd lose a fight to another being of their class that you have less preference for, so I believe I'm wasting my time here.

3. I have Qui-Gon's main feats in my RT, lol. Also, I didn't give you rights to my RT itself, I just gave you permission to use my content and make your own.

4. You lacked an argument on Force Forms, so that's a concession, and it's accepted.

Agreed with Nova, Vrook should take a hard fight.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So you're saying that, no matter how good the argument, Qui Gon Jinn can't be inferior to Vrook?

Hmm, no not entirely. I'm sensible and open to all debates.

But bias isn't something that really matters to me, it's more less the over-rating of Vrook and the addition of his non-canonical feats that bother me.

Have I used said feats in the past? Yes with Jaden and Alora... when I was relatively new to debating, not anymore.

You can be biased to an era, or have a favorite character among them, and still be able to make a valid point for them.

But Vrook has nothing canonical to showcase in this regard. Add to this Nova's intent to regard Vrook as a master of several forms when his form is very much dependent on game mechanics and we go back to the same debate he and I had on Shaak vs Meetra.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The facts are the feats, which I've given you. The thing is, you keep trying to worm your way out of the facts with excuses, and it's getting frustrating.

2. Your indelible stance on certain characters means it'll be virtually impossible to persuade you that they'd lose a fight to another being of their class that you have less preference for, so I believe I'm wasting my time here.

3. I have Qui-Gon's main feats in my RT, lol. Also, I didn't give you rights to my RT itself, I just gave you permission to use my content and make your own.

4. You lacked an argument on Force Forms, so that's a concession, and it's accepted.

1 - Okay fine, I'm stuck in traffic. Here are the facts.

Vrook has shown no difference in power in the LS path or DS path.

Yes he has, he's dueled the Jedi Exile who by now has bested Zez, stalemated Sion and learned Drain. He's able to TK a party of three which he's never done in canon at all.

And lets take a moment here. Let's pretend I accept this feat.

It still doesn't change that the Exile had just fought several mercs and kinrath prior to this. So Vrook fought someone who had just come out of combat.

Vrook paralyzed the Exile!!?

Yeah... in the LS path... where she offered no resistance.. at all.

Also DS path? He died.

He helped rebuild the Enclave?

Coolio, he had help from others, perhaps they banded together to assist one another, perhaps they needed concentration, perhaps they struggled.

Impressive feat, no context to it.

He's mastered various force forms?

Show me, exactly where it say he mastered them.

Show me how that's relevant to a fight with QGJ's saber mastery?

Vrooks shown himself to be a bullrusher fighter by fighting Mercs and rushing to assist the Exile, he does this here and force combat won't even matter.

Ah but that seems like I'm just glancing at it, his force forms aren't really anything special, one will drain his power quickly and leave him exhausted, the other is too conservative and will only assist him in rejuvenating his force reserves...while under the onslaught of QGJ. And this is all assuming he even knows them.

My stance isn't permanent, I think quite a number of characters could best Qui-Gon, not Vrook. Just because I don't think YOUR character could beat QGJ doesn't mean I don't think others can, that is your assumption, not fact.

I don't hate Vrook, I dislike your insipid use of N-canon feats or vague feats, and how you pass them along as "facts" when it's not at all the case. KoTOR 2 is among my favorite games, I've talked with Sinious about it several times, even on occasion i(used to) speak with Sas and Skillz about it. Your assumption of me isn't fact.

I've nothing against you, your stance on DS canon and LS canon paths conflicts with how things on the true path were done. That's it.

Also, no thanks, I always go through all sources myself.

So, we're just gonna ignore a bunch of stuff.

Qui-Gon being trained by Dooku, holding off Maul.

I don't think you appreciate how impressive that is when compared to someone like Vrook Lamar.

Nice post, Xtasy; though I have an even better one. This face:

http://img.actucine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Liam-Neeson.jpg

I'll make my response later.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy

1 - Okay fine, I'm stuck in traffic. Here are the facts.

Vrook has shown no difference in power in the LS path or DS path.

Yes he has, he's dueled the Jedi Exile who by now has bested Zez, stalemated Sion and learned Drain. He's able to TK a party of three which he's never done in canon at all.

See, a character having few feats and the getting more doesn't constitute a power disparity. I was asking you to give me reasons as to why his DS incarnation would suddenly be more powerful. Otherwise, it's the same Vrook, under different circumstances and events. There's absolutely no reason why the creators would have the Jedi Masters get stronger in the DS version.

Also, the Exile doesn't necessarily have to have fought Zez or Sion first before fighting Vrook.



With fellow party members, and fighting Mercs is supposed to tire you? Just because you left combat earlier doesn't mean you're tired/strained/going to perform worse, especially given that the Exile is clearly a being of high stamina and may have already learnt Force Affinity before this.



LS path doesn't mean you have to select "I submit to this punishment". You can select the non-DS option of resistance, which is "I won't give up the Force - stop this". Even if you choose to resist, you get placed in Stasis. I believe the same occurs if you select "The first one who touches me dies".



We all know DS paths constitute story differences for almost every character. Power differences, however? Not for every character at all, usually just the protagonist and certain party members.



Even assuming it's a struggle, it's a feat beyond Qui-Gon. Do we have reason to believe that three Qui-Gon's are powerful enough to telekinetically reconstruct the Jedi Enclave? And that's assuming Zez and Kavar are Vrook's equals in the Force/TK, which they aren't based on portrayal alone.



Maybe "mastered" is a strong word, but he was fluent in their use, which is something he can use against Qui-Gon in a Force-related battle. He was at least skilled enough to teach Surik how to use them and then comment on her sloppy technique.



I said in a Force fight. Regarding lightsaber combat, aside from multi-Form Mastery, Vrook's a confirmed superior to Kavar, who was one of the Order's most famed Jedi Warriors and experienced war fighters in an era said to be the Jedi Order's "summit". It may not be accurate, but it does at least suggest that the average Jedi of the time are rather skilled, and Kavar was among their best. Vrook being his superior means he can at least hold his own against Qui-Gon in sabers only.



We don't even see his fights on-panel, so we have no idea whether or not he integrates Force powers into combat.



Affinity will let him regenerate his Force reserves more efficiently, and under the demands of Ataru, Qui-Gon would tire more quickly. Whether Vrook would last long enough to take advantage of this is up for discussion.

As for Potency, in a Force-related contest, that's a viable option. Vrook already has the better Force feats, so Potency could just make it a more conclusive victory on his part.

Ironic that you should use the term "onslaught", because that's exactly how the Prima Guide describes Vrook's lightsaber attacks.



Which he does.



Well, these debates always revolve around our take on game-related canon. I just don't see a reason as to why his DS incarnation would be written to be any more powerful than his LS counterpart. It's really just the same Vrook doing different things as a result of the different story.

Even the likes of "I" am surprised by SunRazor's argumentation in favor of Vrook Lamar.

http://rs1209.pbsrc.com/albums/cc392/geekinblue/Indiana%20Jones%20Livejournal%20Icons/hmm.jpg~c200

@SunRazor

Now that you are closer then ever at experiencing the Dark Side, join the TOR camp and help it in spreading its glory and reach across the galaxy.

http://i0.wp.com/www.xamxamsays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Valkorion-capture.jpg

Before you join, you will have to swore an oath to never ever debate in favor of a PT/OT/Legacy era character until "I" give you permission to.

LMFAO

BONUS ROUND: H2H, BOTH ARE SHIRTLESS AND SWEATY!

Decent arguments.

Looks like Vrook might have a shot at all-out

Qui gon wins sabers though

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even the likes of "I" am surprised by SunRazor's argumentation in favor of Vrook Lamar.


@SunRazor

Now that you are closer then ever at experiencing the Dark Side, join the TOR camp and help it in spreading its glory and reach across the galaxy.

Before you join, you will have to swore an oath to never ever debate in favor of a PT/OT/Legacy era character until "I" give you permission to.

Surprised in a positive or negative way, lol?

As for your offer, I must decline to maintain my all-era wankage.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even the likes of "I" am surprised by SunRazor's argumentation in favor of Vrook Lamar.

http://rs1209.pbsrc.com/albums/cc392/geekinblue/Indiana%20Jones%20Livejournal%20Icons/hmm.jpg~c200

@SunRazor

Now that you are closer then ever at experiencing the Dark Side, join the TOR camp and help it in spreading its glory and reach across the galaxy.

http://i0.wp.com/www.xamxamsays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Valkorion-capture.jpg

Before you join, you will have to swore an oath to never ever debate in favor of a PT/OT/Legacy era character until "I" give you permission to.

LMFAO.

Also, interesting response. I'll get to it once I'm done with work for the day.

Eh... DF Jedi Knight may take priority, pretty interesting book.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Surprised in a positive or negative way, lol?
Positive! Most positive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for your offer, I must decline to maintain my all-era wankage.
According to my Intel, you fit the description of the (most wanted) Bounty Hunter then.

By my offer stands.

Who lied and told you that you lead the SWTOR brigade though?

Legend is the Vitiate of SWTOR debating imho

I kinda miss Star Wars Logic tbh

Originally posted by ILS
Legend is the Vitiate of SWTOR debating imho
Legend isn't even the Baras of SWTOR debating. http://r27.imgfast.net/users/2716/29/35/50/smiles/1751224631.png

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who lied and told you that you lead the SWTOR brigade though?

Damn that's cold af tbh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who lied and told you that you lead the SWTOR brigade though?
You dare question my authority?

"You are a blind insect. Contemplating the void of space."

Now shoo before I fap you with my trustworthy fly swatter.

All hail the LeGenDary Valkorian.

http://i0.wp.com/www.xamxamsays.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Valkorion-capture.jpg

You've gone off the deep end, tbh. Turn back and save yourself from this madness.

he wants to fap you

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You've gone off the deep end, tbh. Turn back and save yourself from this madness.
There is no madness, Only the Valkorian.

Damn maybe LeGenD is Valkoron kek

Nah, I recognize Skillz as the only leader of the SWTOR brigade as he's pretty much the sole source of any credibility it has.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I recognize Skillz as the only leader of the SWTOR brigade as he's pretty much the sole source of any credibility it has.
Your arrogance clouds your judgment.

Skillz is just a means to an end.

I am the end of all things kek

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There is no madness, Only the Valkorian.
Your heresy is only compounded by the fact that you do not spell the name of your glorious emperor correctly.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
he wants to fap you
And you wonder why I've made it my life's goal to destroy you and all you hold dear.

That goal isn't worth your life.

its worth way more.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And you wonder why I've made it my life's goal to destroy you and all you hold dear. LOL

He's not bluffing.

EDIT: That edit was LAME Joker.

quick and efficient sinny. quick and efficient.

Not like you didn't know that side of me already.

Originally posted by Sinious
Not like you didn't know that side of me already. Xtasy is far more familiar than I with that side of you.

Sinious how much was fated paid to clean your shaft

Xtasy wishes he was as familiar with that side of Sinny as Bantha was tbh

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sinious how much was fated paid to clean your shaft The thing with Xtasy is that he does it for free

Please, he pays me to do it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Xtasy wishes he was as familiar with that side of Sinny as Bantha was tbh

Jeez I didn't think you were running a whorehouse Sinious

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Jeez I didn't think you were running a whorehouse Sinious You didn't?

He may run it, but I still get my 60% cut.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Jeez I didn't think you were running a whorehouse Sinious I hope this doesn't affect our friendship tbh.

You're a waste of life Slice

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why? Because I'm an upstanding citizen who only deals in completely legitimate business practices.

Both of his statements are wrong tbh. He's not getting a cut but he is also far from an upstanding citizen.

I don't get my cut, then I cut you loose, and we all know you're a wreck without your xanax.

(****ING ROASTED)

I only use cocaine.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Xtasy is far more familiar than I with that side of you.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sinious how much was fated paid to clean your shaft

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Xtasy wishes he was as familiar with that side of Sinny as Bantha was tbh

Originally posted by Sinious
Please, he pays me to do it.



https://media.giphy.com/media/C0FcwaopmfsfC/giphy.gif


The **** guys!?

http://i.imgur.com/vFny0.gif

watch?v=Tj8NFgkB7fI

:no1: I hate you for derailing my debate with Nova.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://i.imgur.com/vFny0.gif

:no1:

LMFAO.

up

Why is this a thing? Jinn stomps.

Vrook takes Force, but Qui-Gon takes sabers and all-out.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Damn maybe LeGenD is Valkoron kek

He's Valkmoron, is what he is.