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Which warrior wins? Fight takes place on flat, neutral terrain.

What kind of legs does Maul have and what weapons?

Scourge should win. Mauls too emotional, Scourge would get a nice boost from him and he'd fight smarter than Maul. He also has better equipment than Maul, is certainly comparable in skill and has much more experience.

Maul, IMO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What kind of legs does Maul have and what weapons?

Scourge should win. Mauls too emotional, Scourge would get a nice boost from him and he'd fight smarter than Maul. He also has better equipment than Maul, is certainly comparable in skill and has much more experience. Interesting arguments tbh.

Maul takes Scourge, and then his successor.

Scourge wins

Maul hasn't fought anyone as skilled as Factory security droids, Darth Xedrix, and multiple Sith apprentices

Maul.

Maul brings Scourge down in all categories.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Maul takes Scourge, and then his successor re-bifurcates him.

Scourge stalemated the Hero of Tython without trying to win. He's been directly empowered by Vitiate and has hundreds of battles worth of experience. He is sent by the Emperor to kill any Sith too ambitious and any Jedi that are too powerful. He is meant to be stronger than Jadus, Malgus or Marr as well.

I am thinking Wrath Scourge.

Act II Hero is in no way on par with Maul, and Scourge probably isn't above any of those characters.

Assuming end of Act II HoT is much less than Act 3, who is more than on par with Maul. Except he is clearly capable of killing anyone in the Empire bar Vitiate himself.

Yeah, he kind of is inferior to his Act 3 incarnation. That's kind of how the game works - you progress through the story, and as you do, you grow more powerful.

Yes but the difference in time between end of Act II and Act III is essentially nil.

Based on what? The idea is that you progress throughout the game and constantly get stronger. You don't stop at Act II. It's comparable to the level-up system - it's a continuous improvement throughout the course of the entire game.

It's more reliable to just use the Hero's feats up to and of Act II as a measuring stick for Scourge. And that's not enough to beat Maul.

Because when Act II ends, obviously Act III begins. You realise how little actually takes place once you escape with Scourge right? Now if you had said end of Act II isn't as powerful as Act IV I would absolutely agree.

The Hero trains for an unspecified amount of time between Act II/Act III under Vitiate's influence. Also, HoT's feats are just better in Act III. His Dark Temple run, for instance.

Act II ends with Vitiate's training finished and his influence broken IIRC.

Isn't that the start of Act III? It's been too long, I don't remember.

Originally posted by carthage
Scourge wins

Maul hasn't fought anyone as skilled as Factory security droids, Darth Xedrix, and multiple Sith apprentices

LOL

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Hero trains for an unspecified amount of time between Act II/Act III under Vitiate's influence. Also, HoT's feats are just better in Act III. His Dark Temple run, for instance.
Not to support Scourge, but the HoT doesn't even remember the probably year of training that happened under Vitiate. They don't gain those memories back until Rishi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Isn't that the start of Act III? It's been too long, I don't remember.
Act III starts with taking Scourge to Tython i believe.

Act II Hero is still quite above the Barsen'thor. Sun, even you admitted that the latter could compare to Maul and have a close minority of wins. Act II Hero is a ****ing beast who's easily the best and most powerful Jedi combatant in the Order. If Scourge could stalemate the Hero, he's very comparable to Maul, especially since he'd be in fact greater than he was against the Hero since he'd be able to feed off of Maul's rage.

Scourge is getting sold short. He was already a saber prodigy in Revan in the academy who scared the shit out of his instructors and a high-end master of multiple forms since he was a Juyo master. He also outran automated speederfire, which was programmed to target and fire at incredible speeds and undoubtedly at highly fast targets and move faster than patrol droids could react. Add into that, that Nyriss and Revan both state that Scourge still possesses immense untapped potential and Scourge would be significantly greater as of Swtor. And his saber skills would be similarly immensely improved over the 300 year period he was the Emperor's assassin. If Scourge was already a master of 3 lightsaber forms in Revan in his, what, dozen years of training, then he'd be immeasurably improved by the game. He'd have plenty of time to polish his saber skills to perfection and obviously has the inclination. And the opportunity to test them with his over 1000 Sith kills and 100 Jedi kills. Scourge has the experience to analyse and pick apart Mauls technique. Considering Maul's kind of a dumb ass who is constantly screwing up with his arrogance and personal issues, Scourge obviously has the tactical edge.

Furthermore, TCW Maul was a veritable wellspring of anger. He was snarling like a ****ing lunatic at points. With Scourge's unique ability to draw off the rage of his opponent's, he'd receive a considerable boost from someone like Maul. Add into that that Scourge is also an immensely powerful Force User in his own right and that he's receiving a biochemical amp and an amp from Vitiate and Scourge has a shitton of cards stacked in his favor.

Scourge also has heavy armor and a shield generator. Even if Maul manages to get through Scourge's own immense power, I doubt his TK would actually do anything. He'd need to overcome Scourge's barrier and his shield generator and still TK Scourge hard enough to affect him through the armor. Bare in mind that even Malgus as of Deceived had armor capable of repelling direct lightsaber attacks and in Hope his armor survives the thermal deternator and Satele Kamehameha combo that defeats him. Scourge, as the Emperor's Wrath, would surely have the finest equipment he wanted. Obviously, these factors also help him in a lightsaber duel and are yet another advantage Scourge has over Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Act II Hero is still quite above the Barsen'thor. Sun, even you admitted that the latter could compare to Maul and have a close minority of wins. Act II Hero is a ****ing beast who's easily the best and most powerful Jedi combatant in the Order. If Scourge could stalemate the Hero, he's very comparable to Maul, especially since he'd be in fact greater than he was against the Hero since he'd be able to feed off of Maul's rage.

Scourge is getting sold short. He was already a saber prodigy in Revan in the academy who scared the shit out of his instructors and a high-end master of multiple forms since he was a Juyo master. He also outran automated speederfire, which was programmed to target and fire at incredible speeds and undoubtedly at highly fast targets and move faster than patrol droids could react. Add into that, that Nyriss and Revan both state that Scourge still possesses immense untapped potential and Scourge would be significantly greater as of Swtor. And his saber skills would be similarly immensely improved over the 300 year period he was the Emperor's assassin. If Scourge was already a master of 3 lightsaber forms in Revan in his, what, dozen years of training, then he'd be immeasurably improved by the game. He'd have plenty of time to polish his saber skills to perfection and obviously has the inclination. And the opportunity to test them with his over 1000 Sith kills and 100 Jedi kills. Scourge has the experience to analyse and pick apart Mauls technique. Considering Maul's kind of a dumb ass who is constantly screwing up with his arrogance and personal issues, Scourge obviously has the tactical edge.

Furthermore, TCW Maul was a veritable wellspring of anger. He was snarling like a ****ing lunatic at points. With Scourge's unique ability to draw off the rage of his opponent's, he'd receive a considerable boost from someone like Maul. Add into that that Scourge is also an immensely powerful Force User in his own right and that he's receiving a biochemical amp and an amp from Vitiate and Scourge has a shitton of cards stacked in his favor.

Scourge also has heavy armor and a shield generator. Even if Maul manages to get through Scourge's own immense power, I doubt his TK would actually do anything. He'd need to overcome Scourge's barrier and his shield generator and still TK Scourge hard enough to affect him through the armor. Bare in mind that even Malgus as of Deceived had armor capable of repelling direct lightsaber attacks and in Hope his armor survives the thermal deternator and Satele Kamehameha combo that defeats him. Scourge, as the Emperor's Wrath, would surely have the finest equipment he wanted. Obviously, these factors also help him in a lightsaber duel and are yet another advantage Scourge has over Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge is getting sold short.

Scourge has the experience to analyse and pick apart Mauls technique. Considering Maul's kind of a dumb ass who is constantly screwing up with his arrogance and personal issues, Scourge obviously has the tactical edge.Please, b*tch a little more for us while I call the butthurt police for you.

I'm not butthurt, it's just the truth. In one of his books he falls for the same trick twice because he's ****ing around too much. Bondara leads him over to a speeder and ignites it, almost taking him out and then at the end if the book Bondara's apprentice almost kills him by pulling the exact same trick and Maul falls for it for the exact same reason. Then obviously he gets bisected in TPM because he's screwing around with Obi-Wan. And then in TCW he has Obi-Wan at his mercy a bunch of times but doesn't follow through because of his personal vendetta. He lets Obi-Wan lead him into the cave and then he and Savage get whipped partially because he's trying to capture him. He gets killed by Vader by not finishing him and letting Vader surprise stab him.

More than any Sith I can think of, Mauls screwes up entirely due to his own twisted personality.

That was more those two using desperation tactics than Maul f*cking around, lol. And he wasn't killed either time. The TPM situation is irrelevant here because Maul isn't pissing around with Scourge. Likewise Maul has no personal vendetta against Scourge so he won't settle for capturing him. Again, Obi-Wan taking the fight into the cave was just smart thinking on his end, and also, as I'll continue to point out, Maul wasn't the one who lost an arm in that fight. As for Vader? He's just about the only person I can think of outside of true high-tiers that can afford to stab themselves in the stomach. None of this applies to Scourge in the slightest.

Another point, about all of these situations where Maul has "won" against plot-protected character but loses in the end? Maul still won the fights. Were Scourge to be put on his ass by Maul that would not only count as a valid loss, but he probably wouldn't be bailed out by plot like the likes of Vader and Kenobi. These are just tired excuses people draw on in order to avoid getting into a feat-war with Maul.. because that isn't really somewhere you want to be.

I get it. There's the overarching theme of arrogance in Maul's history. There's also an overarching theme in your debating of taking minor points and blowing them up further than your erection for Dessel's cue ball, hence why I rarely take you seriously outside of when your debating is confined to one era you're knowledgeable about. When you attempt to debate a character from another era you end up wanking one side furiously while lowballing the other, and failing to make any meaningful comparisons in the process.

With that said, Maul wins.

You sound bitter, ILS.

That's nice. Mauls still a dumbass who makes repeated tactical blunders. You can make excuses but the fact remains that this is a factor of Mauls character, as you admit, that paints him as tactically unreliable compared to Scourge's calm and analytical nature. Obviously Scourge can't replicate those exact circumstances, but it's a factor that could come into play. Also, those two only pulled off those desperation moves because Maul was prolonging the fight.

I'm not taking a minor point and blowing it out of proportion. I made a minor point in my larger argument and then supported it when you challenged it. It's still a minor point, I just elaborated. Calm down man, don't get your jimmies in a rustle.

Also some would say Kreia can tank stabbing herself in the stomach with the cut content.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's nice. Mauls still a dumbass who makes repeated tactical blunders.Mm.. I dunno. "Scheming mastermind" doesn't sound like a dumbass to me.
Excuses you failed to address in any way, shape or form.
Uh huh.. and I suppose Maul casually dictating the location of a duel with one of the most skilled swordsmen the Jedi have produced in 25,000 years and his apprentice at the same time just screams dumbass, right? How about throwing away ones lightsaber strategies and replacing them with brand new ones within the first clash of a blade? Idiot, right? How about taunting one of the most skilled defensive fighters in the mythos into fighting like a crazed animal and then kicking his ass to the curb? Clearly the mindset of a barbarian.

Let's not even get into the time Maul took a village of spear-wielding primitives and trained them into a force capable of slaughtering an army of armed soldiers within a couple of days. Or that other time Maul orchestrated the capture of the Separatist's political and military leaders using nothing other than the criminal underworld and a force of Mandalorians Maul spent all of maybe a few months in ranks with.

try reading the material before slabbering ignorance, bro. Maul was slaughtering Bondara and came within a strike of killing him before he stabbed the speeder (in fact, it was stated Maul's plan from the beginning was to tactically drive Bondara to the edge so he wouldn't have anywhere left to run - more idiotic tactics, no doubt). Darsha only lasted as long as she did because she fell into a state of extreme focus and played keep-away as best she could, not because of any tactical blunder on Maul's part.

And again, try considering the fact that all of these characters and situations mean jack shit in relation to Scourge, whose tactical track record up until this point is an accolade from you saying he's "cold and analytical"... yeah, that's nice.
Was she back up and fighting afterwards?

Also, according to both TPM and TCW Maul can as well. If anything the clone fight with Vader is an inconsistency.

Originally posted by Sinious
You sound bitter, ILS. This coming from the guy who formed his own wittle squad of SWTOR wankers because he got awl upset at the mean people saying your favourites suck?

Originally posted by ILS
This coming from the guy who formed his own wittle squad of SWTOR wankers because he got awl upset at the mean people saying your favourites suck? No, its coming from me.

Originally posted by Sinious
No, its coming from me. We've established that.Originally posted by AncientPower
No you certainly are not, he lacks your credibility. But this isn't really direct at you is my point. Me, Sin and Skillz are in the process of destroying one PT brigade piece of 'logic' at a time. You have nothing to worry about.

Nigga the day you form your own Star Wars hit squad is the day you lose the ability to call anyone else bitter.

Originally posted by ILS
We've established that.

Nigga the day you form your own Star Wars hit squad is the day you lose the ability to call anyone else bitter. Nigga you have a weird way of looking at things, I'll give you that.

And for a guy who likes to troll others so often, you indeed get upset way too fast.

Sin, chillax. You're getting way too upset about this. Neph's a grown man, he can handle himself.

If calling some else upset somehow makes me upset, you're the maddest of us all since half of your posts consist of accusing people of being mad.

Thanks for looking out for me though.

Now, now. There's no need to lash out indiscriminately. You should be far too preoccupied with the impending release of the Zakuul expansion and the debut of your coalition with AP and Skillz to be baited by ILS.

It's all good, man. Don't rise to the bait.

I haven't played SWTOR in 2 years bro and you know how right I am with my last post so don't try to bypass it.

To return the favor, one quick tip: You're weakness is trying too hard.

Yeah, I don't know why you're getting mad at me. All I'm saying is that it's an exciting time for a lot of posters, including yourself. If ILS knows he can bait you successfully, he's just going to continue to do it.

Don't squander your happiness by letting him win.

Now that Sinious has calmed down and Neph's outlandish claims have been settled, lets get back to the topic of discussion.

Given that Maul has:

-More strength than Scourge, both physically and in the Force by a sizeable degree.
-More extensive combat training from a wider variety of, and simply better, sources, and a higher dedication to training (comparing Scourge's training regime of practising every few days to Maul's hundreds of thousands of sequences every single day). Also much, much harsher training.
-Better, and more easily definable combat and Force feats.
-Superior accolades.

I would say that he has this in the bag. Scourge is comparable in some respects and will certainly give Maul a run for his money, but he's ultimately outmatched in all the areas that are worth mentioning.

Originally posted by ILS
Now that Sinious has calmed down and Neph's outlandish claims have been settled, lets get back to the topic of discussion.

Given that Maul has:

-More strength than Scourge, both physically and in the Force by a sizeable degree.
-More extensive combat training from a wider variety of, and simply better, sources, and a higher dedication to training (comparing Scourge's training regime of practising every few days to Maul's hundreds of thousands of sequences every single day). Also much, much harsher training.
-Better, and more easily definable combat and Force feats.
-Superior accolades.

I would say that he has this in the bag. Scourge is comparable in some respects and will certainly give Maul a run for his money, but he's ultimately outmatched in all the areas that are worth mentioning.

@ ILS

I believe both sides have a chance here and I know you're possibly the best person to defend Maul. Neph has made some good arguments so you should address to the entirety of his post imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, I don't know why you're getting mad at me. All I'm saying is that it's an exciting time for a lot of posters, including yourself. If ILS knows he can bait you successfully, he's just going to continue to do it.

Don't squander your happiness by letting him win. I could never be mad at you.

His post only really accounts for Scourge's accomplishments, and also had something to do with a discussion with Sun as the basis for Scourge is comparable to Maul, which I see as irrelevant. If you'd like I could simply combine my above post with the relevant material?

I'm curious to see how your debate with Neph will go on so I don't want to exhaust you tbh.

In that case I'll kill two birds with one stone. Post incoming.

I'm pleased that cooler heads have prevailed here, we are well on our way to true peace in our time.

Maul wins doe

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm curious to see how your debate with Neph will go on so I don't want to exhaust you tbh.
How they always do, with neither side actually considering the other's argument and a bunch of era wank.

Originally posted by ILS
Mm.. I dunno. "Scheming mastermind" doesn't sound like a dumbass to me.

His history makes a different case.

Originally posted by ILS
Excuses you failed to address in any way, shape or form.

Cuz I didn't care enough to refute them. I was hoping you'd drop this point but you're clearly assblasted as hell so that didn't happen. You didn't even excuse many of them, you can posted about how they didn't matter and couldn't be replicated. Which as I said, isn't the point, those examples just demonstrate how Maul bungles things by being dumb which can be exploited.

Originally posted by ILS
Uh huh.. and I suppose Maul casually dictating the location of a duel with one of the most skilled swordsmen the Jedi have produced in 25,000 years and his apprentice at the same time just screams dumbass, right? How about throwing away ones lightsaber strategies and replacing them with brand new ones within the first clash of a blade? Idiot, right? How about taunting one of the most skilled defensive fighters in the mythos into fighting like a crazed animal and then kicking his ass to the curb? Clearly the mindset of a barbarian.

Let's not even get into the time Maul took a village of spear-wielding primitives and trained them into a force capable of slaughtering an army of armed soldiers within a couple of days. Or that other time Maul orchestrated the capture of the Separatist's political and military leaders using nothing other than the criminal underworld and a force of Mandalorians Maul spent all of maybe a few months in ranks with.

You seem mad.

Maul also exposed himself as a Sith in front of a ship full of people and 1 Jedi just to attack Qui-Gon and let them escape back to Coruscant. Leading Qui-Gon to the force fields is the only time he demonstrates good tactics and that backfired spectacularly on him, didn't it?

Although, yeah Maul's such a braintrust for Dun Moching Obi-Wan. "I killed your master, u mad???"

Originally posted by ILS
try reading the material before slabbering ignorance, bro. Maul was slaughtering Bondara and came within a strike of killing him before he stabbed the speeder (in fact, it was stated Maul's plan from the beginning was to tactically drive Bondara to the edge so he wouldn't have anywhere left to run - more idiotic tactics, no doubt). Darsha only lasted as long as she did because she fell into a state of extreme focus and played keep-away as best she could, not because of any tactical blunder on Maul's part.

And again, try considering the fact that all of these characters and situations mean jack shit in relation to Scourge, whose tactical track record up until this point is an accolade from you saying he's "cold and analytical"... yeah, that's nice.

Slabbering? That's not a word, you mean slavering. And yeah, that was an idiot tactic considering what actually happened, isn't it? Trying to pin him against the bike proved to be a stupid idea. And yeah, it was a tactical blunder on Mauls part. He goes into the fight intending to enjoy himself then underestimates her and doesn't realise she's using the force to set up a trap by tossing fuel canisters together.

Originally posted by ILS
Was she back up and fighting afterwards?

Also, according to both TPM and TCW Maul can as well. If anything the clone fight with Vader is an inconsistency.

I'm pretty sure she does stand up and then go beat the shit out of the Exile's crew, yes.

Slabber is a word. It means dribbling at the mouth. Same thing as slaver, basically.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Slabber is a word. It means dribbling at the mouth. Same thing as slaver, basically.



I notice an increasing use of the word assblasted, which makes me giggle.

Scourge for his ass kicked by security droids has no skill feats outside of killing geriatric Sith Lords and Sith trainees. If he improved by the time to SWTOR he might be lucky to be Legends Quinlan Vos or Bane level.

Maul rapes

Before I start, just to clarify with your last post:

Originally posted by ILS
-More extensive combat training from a wider variety of, and simply better, sources, and a higher dedication to training (comparing Scourge's training regime of practising every few days to Maul's hundreds of thousands of sequences every single day). Also much, much harsher training.

Scourge could train every 5 days and still have a half dozen times the training Maul does. Maul trained like that because he was still an apprentice, Scourge was a full Sith Lord and had shit to do. I'm sure that when he was an apprentice he spent most of his time training, just like anyone else. I also doubt Maul's training was much harsher considering the insane conditions of Korribans training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Before I start, just to clarify with your last post:
Scourge could train every 5 days and still have a half dozen times the training Maul does. Maul trained like that because he was still an apprentice, Scourge was a full Sith Lord and had shit to do. I'm sure that when he was an apprentice he spent most of his time training, just like anyone else. I also doubt Maul's training was much harsher considering the insane conditions of Korribans training. Actually, no: Maul was a full Sith Lord by the age of 15-16, and yet he still spent absurd amounts of time perfecting his craft with a blade.


--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

As for how harsh Scourge's training was - give me your best and I'll respond with Maul's.

Yeah, Maul definitely takes this. Pretty impressive, ILS.

Originally posted by ILS
Actually, no: Maul was a full Sith Lord by the age of 15-16, and yet he still spent absurd amounts of time perfecting his craft with a blade.


--Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Yeah, no shit I gathered that from the Darth part. But he was still Sidious' apprentice and he had no duties other than training in between the missions Sidious sent him on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, no shit I gathered that from the Darth part. But he was still Sidious' apprentice and he had no duties other than training in between the missions Sidious sent him on. Precisely. And when he trained, he trained a shit-ton harder than Scourge.

ILS going hard in the paint, tbh.

Like I said, because Scourge had already left the academy. He wasn't an apprentice anymore.

It's not letting me quote your post. I'm gonna postpone a reply until later today.

There's a difference between being an apprentice Sith Lord to the Sith Lord, and being an academy apprentice who is yet to even take the title of Darth in the first place. Maul is of the same rank as Scourge - a fully fledged Sith Lord. And he was carrying out missions for Plagueis and Sidious when they arose - so Scourge isn't a special snowflake for being let out of his cage.

The point that isn't resonating with you is that despite being of equal rank, Maul just trained a ****-ton harder than Scourge. Ergo, it's another piece of supporting evidence for why he's better.

Neph, I admire your stamina for posting WOT still after all these years. Is it as enjoyable as it used to be?

Originally posted by ILS
There's a difference between being an apprentice Sith Lord to the Sith Lord, and being an academy apprentice who is yet to even take the title of Darth in the first place. Maul is of the same rank as Scourge - a fully fledged Sith Lord. And he was carrying out missions for Plagueis and Sidious when they arose - so Scourge isn't a special snowflake for being let out of his cage.

The point that isn't resonating with you is that despite being of equal rank, Maul just trained a ****-ton harder than Scourge. Ergo, it's another piece of supporting evidence for why he's better.

And it's clearly not resonating with you that Scourge had already passed that point. He wasn't a teenage Sith like Maul was, he was an actual adult. Scourge had already spent years of training of Korriban and had moved passed that to a full-time position. It's like comparing a university student to a professor. The student spends more time studying but the professor did the studying and moved on. You can't compare their training because you don't know how much training Scourge did when he was in Maul's position.

Either way you didn't respond to the point that Scourge trained a ****-ton longer than Maul did and fought a ****-ton more than Maul did. And he never got crippled like Maul did.

I get what Neph is saying here. Not that it matters as Scourge has probably been in actual combat more than Maul trained by himself lol

And why on earth would that matter?

Scourge trained on Korriban, becomes a Sith Lord. Maul trains under Sidious, becomes a Sith Lord.

I think we already established that training under Sidious to be the "ultimate weapon", or the "violent embodiment of their partnership", kind of shits on training at the academy.

I'm now comparing their dedication to dueling after that point - while they are Sith Lords; whereas you're trying to compare Maul's continued training of the lightsaber to what Scourge did at the academy.. which is because there's a severe lack of evidence for Scourge, as a Sith Lord, maintaining his lightsaber ability to the same degree as Maul. It's nice attempt at deflection, but it's not going to fly. Maul evidently just trains harder and better than Scourge.
And here we have the appeal to ignorance. As far as I'm concerned you have no grounds for suggesting Scourge's training was equivalent.
The quality of the training and experience matters a hell of a lot more than the length of it. It isn't time that improves a Force user as much as it is their experiences that mould them - hence why after becoming a Sith Lord, or after any particularly traumatic experience, Maul felt himself growing more powerful from it.

On your end, your argument amounts to "Scourge is really old and trains a few times a week!"
By all accounts Maul only became more powerful after TCW, not crippled. He spent that decade stewing in utter hatred and as a result it made him stronger. It's experiences like that, again, which mould a character, not simply time itself.

@ILS

Sith training standards of the Empire are officially harsh, brutal and unrelenting. To give you some perspective, thousands entered the Sith Academy at a time but few were able to endure the trials successfully and graduate. Many would perish during the trials.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia contains information about this subject.

No doubt they were hard, but I'd need specifics before I consider them comparable to Maul's training. I might check out my copy of the book for more info, so thanks.

Originally posted by ILS
Now that Sinious has calmed down and Neph's outlandish claims have been settled, lets get back to the topic of discussion.

Given that Maul has:

-More strength than Scourge, both physically and in the Force by a sizeable degree.
-More extensive combat training from a wider variety of, and simply better, sources, and a higher dedication to training (comparing Scourge's training regime of practising every few days to Maul's hundreds of thousands of sequences every single day). Also much, much harsher training.
All of this is mere speculation.

Yes, Darth Maul received excellent training by all accounts. But we need to keep in mind that ancient Sith Empires defined the standards of Sith training in the first place.

Originally posted by ILS
-Better, and more easily definable combat and Force feats.
Because Darth Maul is one of the best explored characters of the mythos. In contrast, most TOR timeline characters are (unfortunately) not explored in as much depth; not even close. It is virtually impossible and impractical to compare many characters to Darth Maul on pound-for-pound basis in different aspects, my friend.

Originally posted by ILS
-Superior accolades.
No.

Leg, as the spokesperson for the SWTOR movement, could you kindly explain your policy on feats?

Because it looks like you use feats as long as it benefits a SWTOR character but when somebody like Maul has better feats, you cry foul due to an alleged lack of exposure for the other guy?

Just trying to make notes so I can more coherently follow present developments.

#conspiracy

Originally posted by ILS
No doubt they were hard, but I'd need specifics before I consider them comparable to Maul's training. I might check out my copy of the book for more info, so thanks. So, while pooping, I delved into the SWTOR:E and there was conveniently an entire chapter dedicated to Sith Training. Unfortunately, after I read it, I found that it was overall, pretty generic stuff. The training is hard, it routes out the weak, only the best become Sith, etc etc. Sith go out into the wild and only the most cunning and strong return.

By all accounts, Maul's trials at the Orsis Academy, and especially Hypori, blow this kind of stuff out of the water.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
All of this is mere speculation.

Yes, Darth Maul received excellent training by all accounts. But we need to keep in mind that ancient Sith Empires defined the standards of Sith training in the first place.But it's not, Leg. Maul's the kind of guy who gets cut in half and survives purely because of how strong and knowledgeable he is in the Dark Side, and only becomes more powerful because of it. The kind of guy whose sinister presence ripples galaxy-wide through the Force upon his return. The kind of guy who tears the head off of mini-dinosaurs without even calling on the Force. There's three feats for you that exceed Scourge's capabilities. Scourge has more than three feats to draw from, correct?
That isn't exactly much of an argument, and also not necessarily true. Scourge has any number of codex entries, reference books, SWTOR fights or novel feats to draw on to demonstrate how great he is. Maul does have a lot more to draw on, but I don't need to draw on much to show why he's better.
Except.. when you think their feats are better.
Yes. I'll compile them in another post, time limit would probably run out before I get them together for an edit.

Originally posted by ILS
So, while pooping, I delved into the SWTOR:E and there was conveniently an entire chapter dedicated to Sith Training. Unfortunately, after I read it, I found that it was overall, pretty generic stuff. The training is hard, it routes out the weak, only the best become Sith, etc etc. Sith go out into the wild and only the most cunning and strong return.

By all accounts, Maul's trials at the Orsis Academy, and especially Hypori, blow this kind of stuff out of the water.
That is the maximum you will get in an encyclopedia.

I doubt that authors have time and patience to provide detailed accounts of experiences of each acolyte in the Empire.

In-fact, SWTOR is primarily game-focused content. Books and Comics are just value-additions.

Or maybe... academy training just isn't up there with what personal tutoring from the greatest Sith to ever exist will do for you.

Where, then, should he look for proof of scourge's training being more intensive than Maul's?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Leg, as the spokesperson for the SWTOR movement, could you kindly explain your policy on feats?

Because it looks like you use feats as long as it benefits a SWTOR character but when somebody like Maul has better feats, you cry foul due to an alleged lack of exposure for the other guy?

Just trying to make notes so I can more coherently follow present developments.

#conspiracy
I assess characters on the basis of feats (and) other bits of information such as reputation, accomplishments, known characteristics and implied potential.

I cite feats whenever applicable which is norm for a debater.

There isn't much information about capabilities of Lord Scourge to draw from for a lengthy pound-for-pound comparison purpose in a debate. We have some feats to cite from his early days (during the times of his service to Darth Nyriss) but we don't have much to tell about his capabilities during his prime days as Emperor's Wrath. At best, information about him - during the times of his service to the Emperor - implies that Scourge emerged as one of the Sith finest in galactic history. Insofar, I know that Scourge acquired new powers including shatterpoint abilities during his prime days.

Ok. Thing is, Maul's pretty kickass in all of the criteria you mentioned. So how is it ok to use Scourge's "superior" feats but disregard Maul's on the basis of lack of exposure? Looks a lot like a double standard to me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok. Thing is, Maul's pretty kickass in all of the criteria you mentioned. So how is it ok to use Scourge's "superior" feats but disregard Maul's on the basis of lack of exposure? Looks a lot like a double standard to me.
I am not disregarding Darth Maul's feats; I am pointing out that there isn't much to cite in case of Lord Scourge for a pound-for-pound comparison.

Ok, so what does that mean?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok, so what does that mean?
If somebody is demanding a pound-for-pound comparison of training experiences of both characters in question to determine which character have received superior training in the Dark Arts then it shall be kept in mind that Darth Maul's training experiences are documented in great detail in multiple sources but same is not true for Lord Scourge. There is a lot of content to cite about Maul's experiences and accomplishments during the times of his training sessions but same is not the case with Lord Scourge.

Therefore, this is useless argument. Their is no way to determine whom was better trained. Simple.

Ok but that doesn't make sense. Scourge's training has been documented, we just have fewer examples of it.

I mean, by that reckoning, I could say that Palpatine's dark side adepts - who are said to be extremely powerful - could very well rival members of Vitiate's dark council, they just have far less exposure.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok but that doesn't make sense. Scourge's training has been documented, we just have fewer examples of it.
Enlighten me.

I have most SWTOR sources at my disposal and I haven't found much information about Lord Scourge's training experiences. What is known is that Lord Scourge proved to be among the best students of his batch and was particularly renowned for his dueling skills.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I mean, by that reckoning, I could say that Palpatine's dark side adepts - who are said to be extremely powerful - could very well rival members of Vitiate's dark council, they just have far less exposure.
We don't know.

Isn't it stated somewhere that Palpatine provided limited training to his Dark Side adepts?

Well that's just it: we have tidbits from Revan and SWTORE.

So you're saying you wouldn't deny the very real possibility that the Emperor's dark side adepts are on a level with Vitiate's Dark Council members?

It is said in the Dark Empire Handbook (iirc) that though they are no match for Palpatine, many of them grew to be "extremely powerful" indeed.

But I'm on my iPhone so I can't look it up for you.

Scourge is "immensely" powerful. Immense > extreme.

Says you. Come at me.

It says so in the dictionary.

Proof.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well that's just it: we have tidbits from Revan and SWTORE.
Exactly.

Therefore, this defeats the purpose of trying to prove who is better trained among the two.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So you're saying you wouldn't deny the very real possibility that the Emperor's dark side adepts are on a level with Vitiate's Dark Council members?

It is said in the Dark Empire Handbook (iirc) that though they are no match for Palpatine, many of them grew to be "extremely powerful" indeed.

But I'm on my iPhone so I can't look it up for you.
I admit that I haven't focused much on capabilities of Palpatine's Dark Side adepts thus far but I am willing to check some sources.

Insofar, I get the impression (from what I have read) that Palpatine minimized competition for himself in the Galactic Empire and offered limited training to his Dark Side adepts. His Dark Side adepts were tools to promote his agenda rather then work for advancement of the Sith cause.

---

Members of the Dark Council tend to be among the most accomplished and learned Sith in the Empire. In absence of Vitiate, some of these Sith even had the potential to become the Emperor.

That doesn't answer my question, though.

You're telling me that something is inconclusive without proper exposure of certain feats and elements. That means that since Palps' dark side adepts are stated to be extremely powerful but lack the exposure of other characters, we can't eliminate the possibility that they're on par with other heavyweights from other eras.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That doesn't answer my question, though.

You're telling me that something is inconclusive without proper exposure of certain feats and elements. That means that since Palps' dark side adepts are stated to be extremely powerful but lack the exposure of other characters, we can't eliminate the possibility that they're on par with other heavyweights from other eras.
We need more then a single accolade to determine their standing in the grand scheme of things.

They are extremely powerful? If yes, then in comparison to whom or is this someone's assumption? Are they proper Sith Lords? Any notable accomplishments?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul brings Scourge down in all categories.

Wait, wait. Accolades, accomplishments? So exposure does matter after all?

Originally posted by ILS
Or maybe... academy training just isn't up there with what personal tutoring from the greatest Sith to ever exist will do for you. This is true.

However, I don't understand why their training matters that much since both sides had at least average training. Scourge's experience as a combatant however, will indeed be a problem for Maul.

Proof his experience means shit when compared to Maul's vastly superior combat feats?

Originally posted by Sinious
This is true.

However, I don't understand why their training matters that much since both sides had at least average training. Scourge's experience as a combatant however, will indeed be a problem for Maul. An argument that hasn't really been substantiated yet. It's like saying Thor can outbox Batman if they had equal physical stats because he's millions of years old.. yet he's actually a very sloppy combatant compared to Bruce.

I put an emphasis on quality and specifics; as in, the quality of one's training and how profound their various trials and tribulations have been. At least with dark siders, it matters more how much shit they've gone through and overcome than how long they've been around - hence why Maul, for his relatively young age, is competing with people who have been around far longer. He's very powerful, and he's been stretched to his limits at every turn.

All we know about Scourge is that he's got a few wrinkles on his track record and killed a lot of vaguely important beings.

Originally posted by ILS
An argument that hasn't really been substantiated yet. It's like saying Thor can outbox Batman if they had equal physical stats because he's millions of years old.. yet he's actually a very sloppy combatant compared to Bruce.
. Comic book stories never really made sense tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
Comic book stories never really made sense tbh. Well, they do in this case. Bruce had much better training than Thor and has been put into situations that strained him far more as a fighter. Thor has been swinging his weapon longer but only at easier targets. It appears to be the same case here.

Not that I need to rely just on this training argument. There's plenty of other reasons Maul wins.

Originally posted by ILS


I put an emphasis on quality and specifics; as in, the quality of one's training and how profound their various trials and tribulations have been. At least with dark siders, it matters more how much shit they've gone through and overcome than how long they've been around - hence why Maul, for his relatively young age, is competing with people who have been around far longer. He's very powerful, and he's been stretched to his limits at every turn.

All we know about Scourge is that he's got a few wrinkles on his track record and killed a lot of vaguely important beings. Scourge was sent after only the ones worthy of the Emperor's notice. Obviously, the enemies he fought were powerful combatants. Killing 1000 Sith and 100 Jedi in this regard is definitely a beneficial experience. Not to mention he made the Dark Council s***their pants.

Originally posted by ILS
Well, they do in this case. Bruce had much better training than Thor and has been put into situations that strained him far more as a fighter. Thor has been swinging his weapon longer but only at easier targets. It appears to be the same case here.

Not that I need to rely just on this training argument. There's plenty of other reasons Maul wins. Its entirely a different case actually. First of all, we don't even know what Thor did in those years. Scourge faced enemies that have the same powers/abilities with Maul as they're Sith/Jedi force users and are confirmed to be powerful/dangerous enough to worry Vitiate himself.

Originally posted by Sinious
Scourge was sent after only the ones worthy of the Emperor's notice. Obviously, the enemies he fought were powerful combatants. Killing 1000 Sith and 100 Jedi in this regard is definitely a beneficial experience. Not to mention he made the Dark Council s***their pants. No doubt he has a lot of decent kills on his record.. but be careful not to exaggerate. I'm sure these weren't people Maul would have much trouble with. He's already comfortably defeated some very good, well documented swordsmen, he doesn't need to do it a thousand times to show he's capable of it.
Originally posted by Sinious
Its entirely a different case actually. First of all, we don't even know what Thor did in those years. Scourge faced enemies that have the same powers/abilities with Maul as they're Sith/Jedi force users and are confirmed to be powerful/dangerous enough to worry Vitiate himself. I'm just not seeing how this experience helps Scourge against Maul specifically. Like I said, quality of experience matters.

For example, I'd argue Scourge's Soresu wouldn't be too troubling for Maul given that he's kind of the rival of Star Wars' best Soresu duelist.

Maul wins this.

Originally posted by ILS
And why on earth would that matter?

It seems I need to spell it out for you.

Maul trains for x number of years and then gets bisected and turned into the guy from Lost in Space.

Scourge trains for x number of years and then gets promoted and goes and does his thing under Nyriss and stuff.

Maul trains harder in x number of years than Scourge did in his time after Korriban. That doesn't imply that he trained harder than Scourge did in his own apprentice days. In fact, Scourge probably spent longer training even though he "slacked off" simply because he didn't spend 10 years as a spider. And that's only as of Revan. Scourge has something like 20 times an amount of time to train until his peak in the game.

Originally posted by ILS
Scourge trained on Korriban, becomes a Sith Lord. Maul trains under Sidious, becomes a Sith Lord.

I think we already established that training under Sidious to be the "ultimate weapon", or the "violent embodiment of their partnership", kind of shits on training at the academy.

Nai covered this.

Originally posted by ILS
I'm now comparing their dedication to dueling after that point - while they are Sith Lords; whereas you're trying to compare Maul's continued training of the lightsaber to what Scourge did at the academy.. which is because there's a severe lack of evidence for Scourge, as a Sith Lord, maintaining his lightsaber ability to the same degree as Maul. It's nice attempt at deflection, but it's not going to fly. Maul evidently just trains harder and better than Scourge.

I'm pretty sure Scourge maintained his lightsaber skills a great deal better than Maul did. Since you know, he didn't get bisected and turned into a spider for 10 years.

Originally posted by ILS
And here we have the appeal to ignorance. As far as I'm concerned you have no grounds for suggesting Scourge's training was equivalent.

Nai again.

Originally posted by ILS
The quality of the training and experience matters a hell of a lot more than the length of it. It isn't time that improves a Force user as much as it is their experiences that mould them - hence why after becoming a Sith Lord, or after any particularly traumatic experience, Maul felt himself growing more powerful from it.

On your end, your argument amounts to "Scourge is really old and trains a few times a week!"

Which is hilariously ironic considering the fact that the Sith Empire's training greatly draws upon such a concept. Just as much as the acolytes are drilled in lightsaber and force techniques they are thrown into ridiculous suicide missions to forge the absolute best Sith possible. The kind of lunatic training is designed to push Sith passed their limits.

And as we're told, Scourge outdid his trials spectacularly such that even his instructors feared to face him.

Originally posted by ILS
By all accounts Maul only became more powerful after TCW, not crippled. He spent that decade stewing in utter hatred and as a result it made him stronger. It's experiences like that, again, which mould a character, not simply time itself.

It sure is a good idea of you to bring up how Maul spent a decade stewing in hatred, against someone like Scourge who draws on his opponents anger to empower himself. Maul gaining more power from reaching new depths of rage only translates into more power for Scourge to draw upon. He'd gorge himself on the dude.

I like how you guys are legit actually trying to overwhelm ILS with a bunch of responses. Kind of pathetic, tbh.

I like how you think I actually talked to Neph today or to Nai in my life.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how you guys are legit actually trying to overwhelm ILS with a bunch of responses. Kind of pathetic, tbh. It will only hasten their defeat.

But I need to go to sleep and then celebrate becoming 18 tomorrow.. expect a full response in a day or two.

Originally posted by Sinious
I like how you think I actually talked to Neph today or to Nai in my life.
Where did I say you did that? No one's taking the conspiracy shit seriously, but you all need to calm down, is all I'm saying. It's obnoxious, and I know obnoxious, living it every day.

Sticking up for your boyfriend, FS?

I just got done playing DS2 and I still can't quote his other reply so I wanted to at least write something. I already had half of it ready to go.

Edit: Congrats ILS. No prob on waiting. Have fun, mate.

Originally posted by ILS

But I need to go to sleep and then celebrate becoming 18 tomorrow.. expect a full response in a day or two. Wow congrats

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Where did I say you did that? No one's taking the conspiracy shit seriously, but you all need to calm down, is all I'm saying. It's obnoxious, and I know obnoxious, living it every day. LOL on the contrary, you need to calm down. I'm having a civilized discussion with ILS, thats it.

Nah, it's a common trend in anything involving ToR, just like the PT crowd does it when Bane's involved. Soon we have six people responding to one person, which at that point the six people think they "won."
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sticking up for your boyfriend, FS?

Don't imply I have emotions, Neph. I cast them aside a long time ago.

Thanks chaps.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Don't imply I have emotions, Neph. I cast them aside a long time ago. I believe it.

Kek @ the notion of beating ILS in a Maul debate

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Kek @ the notion of beating ILS in a Maul debate

tbh.

Even if you're going to try, why with Scourge? Lmao

> implying Scourge needs to lift a finger to choke/ragdoll the Zabrak

Originally posted by ILS
No doubt he has a lot of decent kills on his record.. but be careful not to exaggerate. I'm sure these weren't people Maul would have much trouble with.
You are speculating again.

Darth Maul end up split in half in his second major confrontation against the Jedi. And you think that he will last 3 centuries without a single defeat? He is powerful but not Emperor's Wrath material.

Originally posted by ILS
He's already comfortably defeated some very good, well documented swordsmen, he doesn't need to do it a thousand times to show he's capable of it.
So Lord Scourge's phenomenal kill count is now meaningless? Experience gained from defeating 2 notable Jedi does not equals experience gained from defeating hundreds of quality opponents.

Originally posted by ILS
I'm just not seeing how this experience helps Scourge against Maul specifically. Like I said, quality of experience matters.
Lord Scourge not just have superior experience in the matters of survival in a cutthroat environment and combat situations, he also have powers that grant him advantage over most in combat situations such as Shatterpoint and Consume Essence.

Confirmation of Shatterpoint:

In his many decades as the Emperor's personal executioner, Scourge has developed a unique view of people, and a fatalistic view of the galaxy at large. He possesses an uncanny ability to analyze those around him to discover their weaknesses, and use that knowledge to his advantage. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet)

Originally posted by ILS For example, I'd argue Scourge's Soresu wouldn't be too troubling for Maul given that he's kind of the rival of Star Wars' best Soresu duelist.
Obi-Wan Kenobi is the finest Form III duelist in opinion of Mace Windu; not promoted as such in neutral manner. On top of this, Darth Maul never broke through Kenobi's defenses with his melee skills. Therefore, your point is meaningless.

Lord Scourge became an expert swordsman before his prime, and he had enormous time at his disposal to hone his combat skills that would be tested time and again in the position of Emperor's Wrath.

Maul eats Scourge for breakfast.

Originally posted by Stigma
Scourge eats Maul for breakfast.

Finally, you start to make sense.

The in-game quest description says that the HoT and Scourge had fought to a standstill. Also Scourge wasn't trying to kill the Hero either.

With your example there's actually cause to dismiss the description of it as a stalemate because Ventress went on to win. With the Hero and Scourge they fight did not continue so the only available evidence says standstill. What seems to you doesn't matter because it's not based on anything but your opinion.

If you want to discuss the Hero vs Maul make a thread for it. I'm obviously not going to discuss two comparisons with you when it's already so annoying with my browser not working. Suffice to say the Hero's position above all Jedi at the time ranks her above Maul's capabilities.



Spare me, you know there's no info on his instructors. And yes, the training on Korriban very much compares to Sidious'. Not that Sidious' prowess implies that he's a stellar instructor. Especially when he treated Maul like an expendable tool. But I digress, the only point of bring up Scourge's accomplishment during training was to establish that Scourge is a lightsaber prodigy. One could argue that sheer experience and technical ability doesn't match up to prodigious talent. What I am establishing is that Scourge possessed all three. Perhaps Maul surpasses him in natural talent, but Scourge has polished his own considerable talent infinitely moreso than Maul has.

I've no idea what you mean by combat disciplines. As far as I'm aware Scourge was a master of just as many lightsaber forms as Maul by the time of Revan. Given 300 extra year's I'm certain he far eclipsed Maul in trained disciplines.

Also even if Maul has a stronger force connection, despite Scourge getting greatly praised by mother****ing Revan and Nyriss for his power, Scourge has 3 amps to his combat prowess to more than make up for that.



Like I said, this was automated speeder blaster fire. Meaning that it was built to be targeting and firing at targets while moving at speeds of hundreds of kilometers per hour, often at other speeders moving at the same speeds. The fact that Scourge could still outpace it demonstrates his considerable speed.

Also you seem to be forgetting that Scourge did this in Revan. Yes, Maul's speed feats are better than Scourge's as of that time, but Scourge was massively below his full potential. Given 300 years of frequent fighting and building up to his betrayal of Vitiate, Scourge obviously would have filled in most or all of his potential.



Meh.



Cannon's designed to be fired at hundreds of kilometers per hour > training droids. Also, see above. Scourge did it hugely out of his prime and without any of his amps.



Jesus Christ stfu. This one point was half your post.

That was Maul's own opinion about his speed. Unless he was seeing himself attacking from everywhere at once it's not exactly that valid. And Maul's increase in power is largely irrelevant since it came with his reaching new depths of hatred, which will only increase Scourge's power in kind. And Scourge increased far more than Maul did.



Oh wow. A hair faster than a normal person. That's uh. That's just great. Having minutely faster reflexes, not speed, than a normal person isn't impressive in SW. I thought that most high-end droids had reflexes far above that of human optimum anyway. Maul probably had to decrease it to reach that tbh, lmao. Also that doesn't actually say that Maul saw that attack in slow motion. And there's no actual planning there.

Oh gee, "some" experience? Let's not oversell it here.

Scourge has more combat experience than almost anyone in the mythos. Experience is an incredibly valuable asset in combat. It's knowing how to react to situations, knowing your own abilities so perfectly that you do them without thought or effort. It's pretty much what Maul's was trying to achieve in your quote about his training.

Also you do realise that hitting his ceiling as a duelist would mean perfecting his abilities with every lightsaber form, right? That's the ceiling of what you can accomplish as a duelist. Which is more than Maul ever achieved. And I've already given you statements from Revan and Nyriss exclaiming Scourge's immense potential. He still had an immense amount of power to achieve. Hitting his ceiling as a force wielder would be doing so and it's what I've been arguing for.



You're kidding right? He's still possessed "immense potential" in Revan and then he had 300 years of fighting the most powerful Jedi and Sith. And he was working to help the Hero of Tython and save the galaxy from Vitiate himself. He had every reason to push himself to be as ready and able as he could, plenty to aid him in doing so with his 1100 powerful opponents and the almost unlimited resources at his disposal (since Vitiate would obviously give Scourge the absolute best to make his Wrath as effective as possible) and ridiculous amounts of time in order to achieve all of this. Scourge was already a master swordsman and lightsaber prodigy in Revan. He clearly has the means, motive and opportunity to massively improve his swordsmanship.



Ridiculous. You really don't think Scourge ran into anyone with Maul's skillset in those 300 years? Don't delude yourself. It's stated that Scourge's experience allows him to analyse someone and identify their flaws merely in a brief observation. He can do the same to Maul.



No, Maul's stupid. Sorry to say. Firstly, Maul's never even registered to "the best Jedi of the era". Qui-Gon Jinn is nowhere near the best. And being a good duelist doesn't make it impressive to get manoeuvred. Lightsaber skill has nothing to do with tactics. And throwing away strategies on a whim is supposed to impress me how? Lastly, scheme's aren't combat tactics, duh. Vitiate is a scheming mastermind but you guys still lapoon him for his bad tactics.



Scourge has appeared in one book immensely below his prime and in a game. Nothing embarrassing about it. In fact it's more embarrassing that even with all his exposure, Maul's still going to lose to Scourge.



Did you even read the rest of my post?

"But even the heaviest suits of armor allow Sith to quickly move across the battlefield and swiftly crush their foes." - Swtore.

The Sith's armor is designed to allow quick movement in the legs and arms while still being capable of resisting lightsaber blows.



Advanced shield generators can repel lightsabers (I think this was established even in Kotor) and Swtore says they can repel lightsabers and heavy weapons with ease. And obviously it can both be used in combat (literally the whole point of it) and can be used to block directly force attacks like pushes, force waves and shoves, but not things like grips.

LMAO @ Kenobi being highly skilled in force defenses.

Maul can't choke out Scourge, don't be stupid. Scourge is too powerful for that. He's no Kenobi.



Which was my point, a direct hit only caused Malgus to wince. Not, you know, die. That counts as tanking lightsaber hits. Scourge's armor is likely better than Malgus' was. And TK usually is blunt force.



And I'm not sure that having a half dozen advantages stacked in his favor counts as "arbitrary." Scourge is just a better Maul than Maul. He was unbeaten for 300 years. Maul's career was an embarrassment by comparison. He's comparably powerful, has everything stacked in his favor and eclipses Maul's saber mastery. The only thing Maul's better at is losing his legs.