JLA Vs JSA (Pre-Flashpoint)

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Zack M
http://i59.tinypic.com/2vsrzpc.jpg

Which team is superior with these lineups?

Martian_mind
JLA.

riv6672
Close match.
Dr. Fate might swing it to the JSA though. He, CM and GL are all (magically) capable of taking out Superman.
After that, the line ups favor the JLA in terms of power versatility, BUT, Fate will then be the biggest gun in the fight.

So, JSA is my call.

StiltmanFTW
Spite because of this guy:

carver9
In the same story, a possessed Captain Marvel dropped Superman with a single hit.

beatboks
JLA wins and the thread also proves they are the inferior team.

11 JLAers vs 9 JSAers
A team of 8 mid herald plus characters vs a team of 4.

JLA can only win vs JSA by stacking the field.

Decter
JLA has too much power added with a numbers advantage

Fate is a big problem but he can't carry his team

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Zack M
http://i59.tinypic.com/2vsrzpc.jpg

Which team is superior with these lineups?

JLA
MM - HH
FS - MH
WW - HH
Superman - LT (base)
Kyle - HH
Flash - MH
Atom - LH
Plasticman - LH
Black Canary - HS
Green Arrow - HS
Batman - Omniversal Abstract

JSA

Atom Smasher - LH
Hawkman - LH
Hourman - HM
Powergirl - MH
Captain Marvel - HH
Dr. Strange - LT (base)
Mr. Terrific - HS
Alan - LT (base)
Jay - LH

The streets won't make a difference. JLA has 7 Herald level beings and one translevel, JSA has 5 Herald level beings and 2 translevel. I think that JLA takes a slight majority or Batman solos.

carver9
SMDSAH

beatboks
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
JLA
MM - HH
FS - MH
WW - HH
Superman - LT (base)
Kyle - HH
Flash - MH
Atom - LH
Plasticman - LH
Black Canary - HS
Green Arrow - HS
Batman - Omniversal Abstract

JSA

Atom Smasher - LH
Hawkman - LH
Hourman - HM
Powergirl - MH
Captain Marvel - HH
Dr. Strange - LT (base)
Mr. Terrific - HS
Alan - LT (base)
Jay - LH

The streets won't make a difference. JLA has 7 Herald level beings and one translevel, JSA has 5 Herald level beings and 2 translevel. I think that JLA takes a slight majority or Batman solos.

Atom smasher is at best mid meta he's an 70 to 80 tonner who can grow, alter his density and mass.
Hawkman is a low meta He's about a 5 tonner with a healing factor and good senses.
Hourman is also a low to mmid meta. On feats hes about a 20 tonner who can run 60mph and doesnt feel pain.
Hector Fate isnt Trans (too many lows ) and thats the one pictured.
Alan is only trans when possessed by the starheart which has only happened once.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by carver9
SMDSAH

One day you will break the internet ^^.

Digi
Probably JLA based on numbers. The JSA's heaviest hitters are the class of this fight, but I'm not sure it would be enough if they ended up in 2-on-1s or worse.

DarkSaint85
JLA.

Also, the Atom has proven that magic does not work on him when he is the size of a theoretical particle (against Gamanemnae, after she had absorbed everyone).

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
In the same story, a possessed Captain Marvel dropped Superman with a single hit.
Suckershot Carter. Cap also had Shazam's power at that point and casually strip Black Adam of his power.

riv6672
Originally posted by Decter
JLA has too much power added with a numbers advantage

Fate is a big problem but he can't carry his team
See, i think he can. Once Superman is out of the picture (and he WILL be) i dont think the numbers game will be a factor for long.
Fate is perfectly capable of dealing with any of the JLA's remaining heavy hitters (MM, FS, WW) on his own. GLs and Flashes match up.
The lower tier characters are just going to be killing time until the higher tiers suss things out.
And at that high level, advantage goes to JSA via Fate.

DarkSaint85
Barring PIS, though, not really sure they have an answer to the Atom. And he can be devastating.

riv6672
Devastating with the same caveat working for him, though.
In a no prep fight, i just dont see it.
Its like Stiltman posting Batman's pic, but not nearly as silly. In this type of fight, his biggest advantage isnt really a factor.
Just my take, though; not looking to argue it into the ground.

carver9
What can Adam do to someone like Captain Marvel?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
What can Adam do to someone like Captain Marvel?

Were you talking about Atom?

He can take out Alan, or Fate. Marvel and Supes can stalemate (though am sure Abhi will say Supes pushes his shit in).

That's two of the JSA's biggest hitters, potentially taken out by one of the JLA guys.

Same with Hawkman/Hourman/Terrific. Atome can take em.

Wally and Jay can stalemate, although Wally is by far Jay's superior. And THAT fight would only last miliseconds, so the winner of that duel (IMO, Wally) would be able to fight someone else almost straight away.

So almost off the bat, we have a Flash and an Atom, without any Fate or Jay or (potentially) Alan.

The JLA have the advantage of Batman's coordination, coupled with MM's telepathy keeping them all synced up (which they usually do in team battles anyway). Even GA has his uses.

carver9
How can Atom take out the heavy hitters though?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
How can Atom take out the heavy hitters though?

By giving them a concussion in their heads.

Magic does not affect him when he's that small. He can grow larger, KO them. Sue Dibny was killed when Jean miscalculated (she was attempting to copy Ray when he does the same thing) - but Ray won't, as he has way more experience (which Jean admitted).

riv6672
^^^PIS.

Start some specific Atom threads against board faves and said devastation would handily disappear.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
^^^PIS.

Start some specific Atom threads against board faves and said devastation would handily disappear.

Without their magic, the heavy hitters are human.

Magic does not affect him at tiny sizes - canon.
He can ride photons - canon.
He can ride inside one's body - canon.

So not sure where the PIS comes from?

riv6672
The fact that him taking out these characters is dependent on them not having the clout here that the JLA members do.
I was just answering the question with MHO, same as you.

Edit:
As to the PIS, you brought it up initially.

Martian_mind
J'onn literally drops half the JSA with his telepathy. Atom Smasher, Mr Terrific, Powergirl, Captain Marvel, Jay... None of them can defend against it.

The rest of the JLA just has to work clean up duty.

DarkSaint85
Anyways - here he rides mental energy into someone. Think MM's psi bolts were bad??? He can now be directed into aNYONE's head:

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o625/sclements1/ridesmentalenergy.jpg

What can he do? Well, Alan needs his concentration. Hard to focus when someone is tap dancing in your inner ear:
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o625/sclements1/eardrum.jpg

Nah, inner ear is too large. how about his central nervous system? How will Fate focus on his spells? Alan on his constructs?
http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/sclements1/media/cnscontrol.jpg

abhilegend
Both Alan and Fate have auto shields.

Not to mention green flame might just burn him. Originally posted by Martian_mind
J'onn literally drops half the JSA with his telepathy. Atom Smasher, Mr Terrific, Powergirl, Captain Marvel, Jay... None of them can defend against it.

The rest of the JLA just has to work clean up duty.
Hard to do that with green flame burning you.

J'onn doesn't has good record against chumps like John and Guy.

Alan just laughs at him and koes him with a blast.

DarkSaint85
WW - Powergirl
Superman - MArvel
Kyle - Alan
Flash - Jay
Green Arrow
Batman - Terrific

These guys will be the usual matchups, and will be fighting for at LEAST a few minutes. Except for the Flash fight, of course.

Which leaves:
Atom Smasher
Hawkman
Hourman

vs

MMH, Firestorm, the Atom, Plastic Man and Black Canary and Flash (who has beaten Jay in the first second or two of the fight, which took place across the US, lol).

MMH and Firestorm could take the remaining three out, at the speed of thought (immobilise them in promethium, as FS tried against Gamanemnae, or a psi bolt).

Then they all gang up on the other JSAers. Batman running strategies.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by abhilegend
Both Alan and Fate have auto shields.

Not to mention green flame might just burn him.
Hard to do that with green flame burning you.

J'onn doesn't has good record against chumps like John and Guy.

Alan just laughs at him and koes him with a blast.

While the rest of the JLA just sit there? Doubtful. The League has a massive speed and numbers advantage. By the time Alan got to him, half his team is gone.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
Both Alan and Fate have auto shields.

Not to mention green flame might just burn him.
Hard to do that with green flame burning you.

J'onn doesn't has good record against chumps like John and Guy.

Alan just laughs at him and koes him with a blast.

Light still goes through them. Atom rides photons in.

The Green flame is magic. Magic does not affect the Atom at tiny sizes.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Martian_mind
While the rest of the JLA just sit there? Doubtful. The League has a massive speed and numbers advantage. By the time Alan got to him, half his team is gone.
Oh JLA wins. J'onn still gets KTFO somehow. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Light still goes through them. Atom rides photons in.

The Green flame is magic. Magic does not affect the Atom at tiny sizes.
Atom doesn't go for killing people.

Not to mention green flame burned him when he went inside Alan's brain in JLA JSA secret files.

riv6672
Magic can still affect him indirectly.
Like when/if Scott is powerless against wood in this scenario. He cant blast a tree. He can still pick up a rock and smash said tree.
Just an example of your point not being fool proof.
Basic knowledge applies here.
The JSA know who they need to battle creatively. They have one of the smartest people on the planet on their side, too.
What they dont have is fan support.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh JLA wins. J'onn still gets KTFO somehow.



The hate is strong in this one.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh JLA wins. J'onn still gets KTFO somehow.
Atom doesn't go for killing people.

Not to mention green flame burned him when he went inside Alan's brain in JLA JSA secret files.

Agreed on J'onn.

Agreed Atom doesn't kill. I posted scans of him not killing, just incapacitating.

Was Secret Files before or after Obsidian Age? I'd argue since Secret Files, he became better in his powers (he even mentions how he was testing a theory, implying he had not done so before).

@riv: Another thing they don't have are numbers and power on their side.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Martian_mind
The hate is strong in this one.
Hate? You can't have a JLA fight without someone beating the shit out of J'onn to prove how powerful the are.

Just before Superman beats the shit out of them. It's tradition!!!!!

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed on J'onn.

Agreed Atom doesn't kill. I posted scans of him not killing, just incapacitating.

Was Secret Files before or after Obsidian Age? I'd argue since Secret Files, he became better in his powers (he even mentions how he was testing a theory, implying he had not done so before).

@riv: Another thing they don't have are numbers and power on their side.
After Obsidian age IIRC.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hate? You can't have a JLA fight without someone beating the shit out of J'onn to prove how powerful the are.

Just before Superman beats the shit out of them. It's tradition!!!!!


...Shit.


*Sigh*

It's hard when your favorite is the benchmark.

DarkSaint85
Sounds like a fun read, got the scan?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Martian_mind
...Shit.


*Sigh*

It's hard when your favorite is the benchmark.

I know right. It's always "I'm as powerful as Superman".

Here's something to cheer you up.


Originally posted by abhilegend
http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17522086_9530384.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17522087_283474.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17522088_8811083.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17522089_010-Green_Lantern_Rebirth_003Rembrandt-DCP.jpg

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like a fun read, got the scan?
Not atm. It's part 1 of virtue and vice.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By giving them a concussion in their heads.

Magic does not affect him when he's that small. He can grow larger, KO them. Sue Dibny was killed when Jean miscalculated (she was attempting to copy Ray when he does the same thing) - but Ray won't, as he has way more experience (which Jean admitted).

Alan can put up a shield. Captain Marvel has been turned inside out with his brains floating in space and he was still not koed. Can't see that working.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Alan can put up a shield. Captain Marvel has been turned inside out with his brains floating in space and he was still not koed. Can't see that working.

Never said Cap. I like how you're attempting to twist my words.

Atom bypasses shields. Unless you're going to show how light does not get through his shield? Then how would he see? Does oxygen not get in? How does he breathe?

Zack M
Originally posted by carver9
Alan can put up a shield. Captain Marvel has been turned inside out with his brains floating in space and he was still not koed. Can't see that working.

Atom has been so small before that he can slip between the cracks of reality.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Zack M
Atom has been so small before that he can slip between the cracks of reality.

*Cue Carver's attempts to twist your words into self-BFR*

Zack M
Lol.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said Cap. I like how you're attempting to twist my words.

Atom bypasses shields. Unless you're going to show how light does not get through his shield? Then how would he see? Does oxygen not get in? How does he breathe?
Magic.

I mean...MAGIC!


I gave my take on how that'd still not be enough.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
Magic.

I mean...MAGIC!


I gave my take on how that'd still not be enough.

Magic, eh?

http://s5.postimg.org/vhd51otuf/WP_20151006_20_17_22_Pro.jpg

Zack M
Atom inside the brain isn't a pretty site.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Magic, eh?
Magic!

StiltmanFTW
Theoretical particle!

shadowknight
JLA wins a large majority

riv6672
More italicized words!

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by beatboks
Atom smasher is at best mid meta he's an 70 to 80 tonner who can grow, alter his density and mass.
Hawkman is a low meta He's about a 5 tonner with a healing factor and good senses.
Hourman is also a low to mmid meta. On feats hes about a 20 tonner who can run 60mph and doesnt feel pain.
Hector Fate isnt Trans (too many lows ) and thats the one pictured.
Alan is only trans when possessed by the starheart which has only happened once.

Good breakdown. Using Hector (as pictured) and Alan with no Starheart really tips it.

beatboks
Originally posted by riv6672
See, i think he can. Once Superman is out of the picture (and he WILL be) i dont think the numbers game will be a factor for long.
Fate is perfectly capable of dealing with any of the JLA's remaining heavy hitters (MM, FS, WW) on his own. GLs and Flashes match up.
The lower tier characters are just going to be killing time until the higher tiers suss things out.
And at that high level, advantage goes to JSA via Fate.

Your aware its Hectormin the picture right?
He simply doesnt have the showings to support this.
He has a lot of "implied power" but next to nothing substantiated.
Must of his tenure as Fate was him brooding over his lost love Fury and being completely ineffectual because of the distraction.
Hell Mordru led him down the garden path and almost made him free him for this reason.
Everytime he accomllished anything was with someone dragging him back into the here and now (often kicking and screaming).
Given his distraction he simply wont be able to do anything before Superman or Flash speed blitz him.
Add that to the fact that in one JLA/JSA crossover it was Atom who took down CLASSIC Fate (who's vastly more formidable). Granted that's pre COIE and no longer canon.

Hector Fate really isnt the problem otyer Fates are.

Also re the JSA not having a fan base, I'm about the biggest JSA fanboy anywhere and one of their biggest defenders on many sites. This line up simply isn't up to the task. There are plenty of line ups that are, this isn't one of them.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by riv6672
More italicized words!

laughing out loud

KMC won't survive that for long.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by beatboks
Your aware its Hectormin the picture right?
He simply doesnt have the showings to support this.
He has a lot of "implied power" but next to nothing substantiated.
Must of his tenure as Fate was him brooding over his lost love Fury and being completely ineffectual because of the distraction.
Hell Mordru led him down the garden path and almost made him free him for this reason.
Everytime he accomllished anything was with someone dragging him back into the here and now (often kicking and screaming).
Given his distraction he simply wont be able to do anything before Superman or Flash speed blitz him.
Add that to the fact that in one JLA/JSA crossover it was Atom who took down CLASSIC Fate (who's vastly more formidable). Granted that's pre COIE and no longer canon.

Hector Fate really isnt the problem otyer Fates are.

Also re the JSA not having a fan base, I'm about the biggest JSA fanboy anywhere and one of their biggest defenders on many sites. This line up simply isn't up to the task. There are plenty of line ups that are, this isn't one of them.

We need more JSA fanboys...

DarkSaint85
Which JSA lineup would be a better fit?

beatboks
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which JSA lineup would be a better fit?

Drop Hawkman, Atom Smasher and Hourman and replace them with Stargirl (or either starman), Miss America, and Obsidian and even with the number disadvantage the JSA would have a bloody good chance of taking it. Add Jesse Quick and I'd say even more so. Judo master could literally solo all the street levelers. Hell the current (sorry latest) crimson Avenger with her magic guns could take down half the JLA alone.

Need I mention Johnny/Jakeem (who could solo). Lets also remember Spectre was a charter member.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.