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Convicted Inmates beat Harvards debate team.

"In the match, inmates defended the premise that students whose parents entered the US illegally should be turned away from schools."

Whats even funnier is the inmates where black and hispanic and they destroyed a liberal college debate team on illegal immigration stances who were white, defending illegal immigrants.

Go figure.

Roll Tide.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34470767

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/07/harvards-prestigious-debate-team-loses-to-new-york-prison-inmates

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/07/living/harvard-debate-team-loses-to-prison-inmates-feat/

If only you were in prison you'd be a more convincing debater 131


Actual comment about the topic on my next post

Originally posted by Bentley
If only you were in prison you'd be a more convincing debater 131


Actual comment about the topic on my next post

How about you make a real post on topic instead of your usual bs?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
How about you make a real post on topic instead of your usual bs?

I do many serious replies actually, don't be so thin skinned. Just wait for my second post, it was even announced in the post you quoted.

Anyways, it seems that the argument they followed was based on poor levels of education in schools with children of illegal immigrants. Shame on the Harvard kids to buckle under that argument. This debate program is a very interesting idea to be honest.

I wonder if the inmates have much more time in their hands to prepare than the students mmm

Nice to see you throw in some excuses in there for Harvard's epic loss.

So you making excuses on their loss because it does not suit your agenda.

Good to go.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So you making excuses on their loss because it does not suit your agenda.

Good to go.

So I'm the one with an agenda... How?

You bring an argument, you push and angle to it and I actually talk about the loss while you splash water about the topic. My guess is that you didn't wanted to discuss about the debate? Open a thread about immigration and school then, stop trying to sneak your agendas into the forums

What argument did I bring, mind quoting my argument. I was just posting a topic in the news, you brought the argument, then started making excuses for the loss, bucko.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
What argument did I bring, mind quoting my argument. I was just posting a topic in the news, you brought the argument, then started making excuses for the loss, bucko.

You said I had an agenda didn't you?

I posted an article, and you immediately started making excuses on why Harvard loss instead of saying, "those white crackers got beat fair and square" like you should have. The lost, so that the L.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I posted an article, and you immediately started making excuses on why Harvard loss instead of saying, "those white crackers got beat fair and square" like you should have. The lost, so that the L.

So I should have a reaction?

Ok, that... Makes sense?

I'm sorry for not fitting in your expectations properly TI. Next time someone asks me to think just like them I'll make sure it's you

Let see your first post was a off topic troll post, the rest have been whining on why they lost.

Fine, whatever.

Edited for lack of arguments on my side.

This is actually a very cool story. It's great that this prison has access to such strong education to the point that they can stand toe to toe and actually beat the team that won the world championship. Even while arguing in favor of something they don't agree with.

This is a great example of people in prison being given a second chance and succeeding, and taking the necessary steps to turn their life around.

Lol @ TI promoting a progressive agenda while he thinks hes just spiting lib'ruls.

Originally posted by BackFire
This is actually a very cool story. It's great that this prison has access to such strong education to the point that they can stand toe to toe and actually beat the team that won the world championship. Even while arguing in favor of something they don't agree with.

This is a great example of people in prison being given a second chance and succeeding, and taking the necessary steps to turn their life around.

don't see 'beating harvad debators' as a good parole thou

The debates today have basically become sjw slam poetry.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
Lol @ TI promoting a progressive agenda while he thinks hes just spiting lib'ruls.

So you resort to trolling when you have nothing else to say.

I found the story extremely interesting, this has nothing to do with a progressive agenda, and I would like to see your pee brain make an argument for that so I can knock it down, just like I did you.

It's totally a cool story..for the inmates. A bit embarrassing for Harvard. Unless they were debating against some evil super geniuses.

Originally posted by BackFire
This is actually a very cool story. It's great that this prison has access to such strong education to the point that they can stand toe to toe and actually beat the team that won the world championship. Even while arguing in favor of something they don't agree with.

This is a great example of people in prison being given a second chance and succeeding, and taking the necessary steps to turn their life around.

I agree, very cool story. Hopefully those people can get out and make life better for themselves and all of us.

Originally posted by Surtur
It's totally a cool story..for the inmates. A bit embarrassing for Harvard. Unless they were debating against some evil super geniuses.

It says in the article:

"Students in the prison are held to the exact same standards, levels of rigor and expectation as students on Bard's main campus," said Max Kenner, executive director of the Bard Prison Initiative, which operates in six New York prisons. "Those students are serious. They are not condescended to by their faculty."

So, they are good, capable students, there's no shame in losing to them.

For Harvard? Sure there is.

Though why do I get this sick sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that we're giving the criminals better educations then law abiding citizens?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So you resort to trolling when you have nothing else to say.

I found the story extremely interesting, this has nothing to do with a progressive agenda, and I would like to see your pee brain make an argument for that so I can knock it down, just like I did you.

nope. the conservative attitude toward prisoners has nothing to do with compassion and rehabilitation. absolutely you are highlighting a progressive agenda with this topic, and on behalf of progressives everywhere: thank you. pretty soon you'll be driving a prius and eating granola on your way to chain yourself to a redwood tree, to stick it to the lumber industry.

I wonder how much tuition the students in prison pay for their education. You guys think it is a lot?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
nope. the conservative attitude toward prisoners has nothing to do with compassion and rehabilitation. absolutely you are highlighting a progressive agenda with this topic, and on behalf of progressives everywhere: thank you. pretty soon you'll be driving a prius and eating granola on your way to chain yourself to a redwood tree, to stick it to the lumber industry.

Quote me saying I did not believe in education for criminals or I will report you for lying and trolling.

Btw: I do drive a prius, dimwit.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Quote me saying I did not believe in education for criminals or I will report you for lying and trolling.

Btw: I do drive a prius, dimwit.

i thought you didnt identify as a conservative? i guess that was a mistruth, since you seem to take my comments on conservatives very personally.

prius huh? it begins.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
i thought you didnt identify as a conservative? i guess that wasnt true since you seem to take my comments on conservatives very personally.

prius huh? it begins.

Off Topic, No proof to back your claims Reported.

ok, good luck with that. *shrug*

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
ok, good luck with that. *shrug*

No proof to back your claims, you have no argument here but off topic personal attacks.

care to quote these "personal attacks" or are you going to report me 12 more times over nothing?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
pretty soon you'll be driving a prius and eating granola on your way to chain yourself to a redwood tree, to stick it to the lumber industry.

This was meant to be a personal attack as well as a insult, and its very stupid of you to try and weasel your way around it now that you have been caught.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This was meant to be a personal attack as well as a insult, and its very stupid of you to try and weasel your way around it now that you have been caught.

thats not a personal attack. however calling someone a "dimwit" is.

also, you're being like one of those fake-injury fifa players again. very childish.

I had hope for you in the past, now you just gonna be out of my screen.

Lol, it's cute that the word "compassion" is being thrown around when prisoners are involved, regardless of their crimes. But the liberals tend to do more to change things for change sake, than progress.

You go ahead and keep having "compassion" for criminals, while the rest of us will have compassion for the victims and their families.

Originally posted by Surtur
For Harvard? Sure there is.

Though why do I get this sick sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that we're giving the criminals better educations then law abiding citizens?

The US education system is messed up, putting people in deep debt, etc.
If the treatment of prisoners is better that is a sign that the treatment of everyone should be better, not that the treatment of prisoners should be worse.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Lol, it's cute the word "compassion" is being thrown around when prisoners are involved, regardless of their crimes. But the liberals tend to do more to change things for change sake, than progress.

thanks for helping to validate my claim

you're alright

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
thanks for helping to validate my claim

you're alright

Yup, I sure validated the difference between conservatives and liberals as far as prisoners are concerned. Thanks for validating MY claim as well

Originally posted by Surtur
For Harvard? Sure there is.

Though why do I get this sick sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that we're giving the criminals better educations then law abiding citizens?
Serious question: do you want prisoners to leave prison better than they came in or not?

If education allows them to do that, then their rehabilitation is working, and I'm not sure why that should leave you with a "sick sick feeling." I'd rather tax dollars paying toward making prisoners better people than paying just to keep them inside forever with no hope of rehabilitation, or even worse, making them more hardened than they were before.

Norway has a very low recidivism rate because their prisons actually make prisoners into better people. At the moment, ours don't.

That's not a serious question if there's no caveat. So if you're going to ask that question, specify what prisoners you're talking about.

Originally posted by psmith81992
That's not a serious question if there's no caveat. So if you're going to ask that question, specify what prisoners you're talking about.
I'm asking on general principle if he thinks prisons should be for rehabilitating inmates or not.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So you resort to trolling when you have nothing else to say.

I found the story extremely interesting, this has nothing to do with a progressive agenda, and I would like to see your pee brain make an argument for that so I can knock it down, just like I did you.
Bastard never has anything to say. He's an idiot.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm asking on general principle if he thinks prisons should be for rehabilitating inmates or not.

That's not an easy question even on general principles. So the response would be, "there should be prisons for rehabilitation and prisons where we throw away the key."

Originally posted by long pig
Bastard never has anything to say. He's an idiot.
Bashar, not bastard.

Originally posted by psmith81992
That's not an easy question even on general principles. So the response would be, "there should be prisons for rehabilitation and prisons where we throw away the key."
Except for the most serious offenders, I don't really see the point in making "throw-away-the-key" prisons. Other than psychotics, who are either kept in asylums or in special sections of regular prisons, pretty much anyone has the *potential* for rehabilitation. I think prisons should always be invested in the future of their inmates, not as much in their past or present. Granted, many inmates won't change no matter what opportunities you give them, but the opportunity should be there.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Except for the most serious offenders, I don't really see the point in making "throw-away-the-key" prisons. Other than psychotics, who are either kept in asylums or in special sections of regular prisons, pretty much anyone has the *potential* for rehabilitation. I think prisons should always be invested in the future of their inmates, not as much in their past or present. Granted, many inmates won't change no matter what opportunities you give them, but the opportunity should be there.

Not for murders (whether it's mass or first degree). No, I don't believe they in particular should have the opportunity.

So many liberal idiots on this page. Disgusting, they don't live in the real world.

Originally posted by Ionceknewu
So many liberal idiots on this page. Disgusting, they don't live in the real world.

get ready for lots of "'s", because thats what we do now on kmc. who needs valid points when you can just have a good facebook-style circlejerk.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Not for murders (whether it's mass or first degree). No, I don't believe they in particular should have the opportunity.
I think there are lots of possible gradations even in first degree murder. For lots of young men who grow up in gang-infested areas they get indoctrinated into a gang culture and end up killing someone before they're even an adult. In some cases (not all, mind you), this is analogous to what happens to child soldiers in wartorn countries, and very few people would say that child soldiers, even ones who've committed war crimes, don't at least deserve a fair chance at rehabilitation.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
get ready for lots of "'s", because thats what we do now on kmc. who needs valid points when you can just have a good facebook-style circlejerk. Must you add to the incessant stupidity?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Must you add to the incessant stupidity?

if you want to cure this forum of incessant stupidity, you should start by logging out forever.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
get ready for lots of "'s", because thats what we do now on kmc. who needs valid points when you can just have a good facebook-style circlejerk.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
if you want to cure this forum of incessant stupidity, you should start by logging out forever. Oh cute! I know you are but what am i? Thanks for proving my point

mmmhmmm

Originally posted by psmith81992
That's not an easy question even on general principles.
Actually, it's a very easy question answer, just ask yourself whether you'd want a prisoner who have served his time or gotten out on parole rehabilitated when released? And if your answer is "no" then you're an idiot.

Note that the countries with the lowest reincarceration rates per captia have the best prisons. In Scandinavian countries prisoners have access to vocational education and training that yield the same credentials as the education available to the general public, so when they get out they can start working honestly and contribute to society by paying tax.

Just to play Republican's advocate....I'm pretty sure psmith is pro-death penalty for murderers or at the very least pro them never getting out.

So he'd want to live under a government with the right to execute its citizens, or alternatively have the taxpayers provide food and housing for people convicted for murder for the rest of their lives?

Basically what you're saying is that he's an idiot.

Wow, you truly are a moron. And the fact that you throw out strawmans like you're trying to make it rain in the club is evidence of that.

No, I'd rather live in your fantasy world where anyone can commit any sort of a crime and be "rehabilitated". Talk about idiotic.


I suppose I should have posted this stupidity first to indicate your general lack of understanding of the topic and your inability to follow a discussion to the point where you have to throw out strawman arguments. So let's see if I can dumb it down for you.

Obviously a prisoner who has gotten out or is getting out fits the criteria of rehabilitation. That much was never in question. The argument was regarding everybody being eligible for rehabilitation or only a certain group of people.
So please, stop embarrassing yourself.


When you have strong evidence showing the strength of this correlation, then your argument will have merit.


I don't regard minors in this regard unless they did something heinous enough to be tried as adults. As for the victims of war crimes, you're getting into a slippery slope here. At what point do you think we should stop trying to "understand" and say "that's not good enough"? If your answer is "never", then you and I are on two different wavelengths and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by psmith81992


When you have strong evidence showing the strength of this correlation, then your argument will have merit. I won't get into the rest of this but he has demonstrated strong evidence by giving examples of countries where high access to rehabilitation has led to low retention in prisons.

We could also show a country the US where less access to these programs have lead to a high reincarceration rate for our prisoners.

Originally posted by Newjak
I won't get into the rest of this but he has demonstrated strong evidence by giving examples of countries where high access to rehabilitation has led to low retention in prisons.

We could also show a country the US where less access to these programs have lead to a high reincarceration rate for our prisoners.

I'd like to see a breakdown by crimes, whether low retention happened first or was as a result of rehabilitation programs, etc. Further, we need to stop taking a country that has a correlation of some kind, and say "we should do what they're doing." It sounds ridiculous each time. Great, we have the most millionaires on the planet, everyone should do what WE do because it works! No.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'd like to see a breakdown by crimes, whether low retention happened first or was as a result of rehabilitation programs, etc. Further, we need to stop taking a country that has a correlation of some kind, and say "we should do what they're doing." It sounds ridiculous each time. Great, we have the most millionaires on the planet, everyone should do what WE do because it works! No.

Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

You're missing the point. It's not as simple as saying "I like what this country is doing, lets do that!" They're not doing it because they don't care about it, they're not doing it because it's not possible in most places.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, if the goal of a country is to have the most millionaires then yes, they should do what the US is doing. That's just not usually a metric people care about as much.

This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

I think most places are not doing it because the policies that lead to such a high number of millionaires are actually harmful to most people in the country.

I don't know, I personally am a big believer in comparing policies (of course holistically) to see which ones are more successful at achieving certain goals than others.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

Volkswagen is not a country.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
This is rich coming from the country who earned record profits by cheating and lying to make money.

TIL VW is a country.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Volkswagen is not a country.

cease your lying, filthy Volkswagian.

I'm not because the comparisons are never equal. You may find a country with looser gun laws and less gun related deaths, but you don't see everyone screaming "enact more liberal gun control policies". Hence the need for conclusive proof regarding the strength of a correlation as opposed to the mere existence of one.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm not because the comparisons are never equal. You may find a country with looser gun laws and less gun related deaths, but you don't see everyone screaming "enact more liberal gun control policies". Hence the need for conclusive proof regarding the strength of a correlation as opposed to the mere existence of one.

You need to look at things holistically, like I said. But if there's so many places with gun control that have much lower rates, and even more, if rates drop in places when they go from little gun control to strict gun control, that is pretty much as strong an indication as you can get in policy making.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Wow, you truly are a moron. And the fact that you throw out strawmans like you're trying to make it rain in the club is evidence of that.
How the **** is it a straw man when I addressed Bardock's description of your position, and not your position specifically? Do you even know what a straw man is?

Originally posted by psmith81992
No, I'd rather live in your fantasy world where anyone can commit any sort of a crime and be "rehabilitated". Talk about idiotic.
This on the other hand is a straw man.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Obviously a prisoner who has gotten out or is getting out fits the criteria of rehabilitation.
What the **** are "the criteria of rehabilitation?" And how the **** does it apply to a rapist who has been sodomizing other inmates after serving the time he was sentenced for? Because he's getting out.

Originally posted by psmith81992
When you have strong evidence showing the strength of this correlation, then your argument will have merit.
And I suppose "strong evidence" is whatever you consider it to be. You know what? I'm done with you, you're not worth my time.

Yes, I do.. And that's what you did. I did not argue regarding those about to be released. That's already completely misrepresenting my position and what Bardock said. So no, you didn't address his description at all.


Looks like you're the one who doesn't understand what a strawman is. Shocking.


http://copsandcourts.com/wp-content/uploads/judge-300x255.jpg
"Once again the communication process broken down". The argument was does everybody deserve rehabilitation, not "these people are getting out, so shouldn't they be rehabilitated?"



Let me check off your debating tactics.

1. Make up ridiculous claims and then argue against said claims
2. Present very weak correlations and when questioned, huff and puff.
3. Claim the other participant isn't worth your time so you can ride safely into the sunset without doing an ounce of thinking.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You need to look at things holistically, like I said. But if there's so many places with gun control that have much lower rates, and even more, if rates drop in places when they go from little gun control to strict gun control, that is pretty much as strong an indication as you can get in policy making.

I will hold you to that then regarding our next debate on social policy.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I will hold you to that then regarding our next debate on social policy.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I HAVE given you examples of countries that while having less guns per capita, have infinitely less gun related violence and deaths.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I HAVE given you examples of countries that while having less guns per capita, have infinitely less gun related violence and deaths.
Well, but that's what people are saying, no? Less guns per capita leads to less gun related violence and deaths.

And no one said it was the sole contributing factor, just that it is a contributing factor, and one way to curb it, as seen in many, many other countries is by having stricter gun control.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Serious question: do you want prisoners to leave prison better than they came in or not?

If education allows them to do that, then their rehabilitation is working, and I'm not sure why that should leave you with a "sick sick feeling." I'd rather tax dollars paying toward making prisoners better people than paying just to keep them inside forever with no hope of rehabilitation, or even worse, making them more hardened than they were before.

Norway has a very low recidivism rate because their prisons actually make prisoners into better people. At the moment, ours don't.

The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but that's what people are saying, no? Less guns per capita leads to less gun related violence and deaths.

And no one said it was the sole contributing factor, just that it is a contributing factor, and one way to curb it, as seen in many, many other countries is by having stricter gun control.

You have refugees killing women in your own country. How about you deal with that first and less us and the US worry about our guns which btw is part of the second amendment.

Originally posted by Surtur
The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

Good point.

Originally posted by Surtur
The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.

It's an interesting thing. People who have broken the law getting access to education that the average person in their same life circumstances wouldn't have. Meaning someone with the same life history would likely be less aware of benefits or less able to receive them.

There are some great programs that are basically stepping stones to college, in the range of $2000 for the entire thing, if not less. We'll be a much better country when everyone is provided the tools to start down that path from childhood and at least given the option and ability to continue their education no matter their circumstances.

It is hard to argue that it's not worthwhile to make sure that people who are coming from a history of criminal behavior have alternative means to succeed after being released, but so should people of any circumstance who want to do more with their lives.

The entire thing just leaves me with an unsettling feeling. I know people still paying student loans, I know people who never went to college because they just couldn't afford it. Some of these people literally could of enriched their lives by breaking the law. Not just via ill gotten gains via breaking the law, but also by being sent to prison. They'd get the free education, 3 meals a day, probably internet access, etc.

Prisoners live better then some actual non criminals I know.

I am really impressed by these Inmates, I think that when there time has been served they should go to Harvard and continue what they have started.

Originally posted by Surtur
The entire thing just leaves me with an unsettling feeling. I know people still paying student loans, I know people who never went to college because they just couldn't afford it. Some of these people literally could of enriched their lives by breaking the law. Not just via ill gotten gains via breaking the law, but also by being sent to prison. They'd get the free education, 3 meals a day, probably internet access, etc.

Prisoners live better then some actual non criminals I know.

Again, very good points.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I am really impressed by these Inmates, I think that when there time has been served they should go to Harvard and continue what they have started.

Now imagine what this country could do if everyone had access to free education of the quality these inmates had.

I'm all for rehabbing prisoners as long as their crimes aren't too heinous. I just wish we'd treat the law abiding citizens as well.

Originally posted by Surtur
Now imagine what this country could do if everyone had access to free education of the quality these inmates had.

I'm all for rehabbing prisoners as long as their crimes aren't too heinous. I just wish we'd treat the law abiding citizens as well.

Yes it is interesting how well of education they received. If criminals can receive free education from good schools on tax payers dime, so should everyone else that is a law abiding citizen.

Originally posted by Surtur
The sick feeling comes with the fact I know law abiding citizens that are still paying student loan fee's and the like. If we are spending tax dollars to educate criminals then why not give *everyone* a college education then? A free one, at that. Since something tells me once they get out of prison they aren't suddenly being forced to pay for the education they received.
Well, in that case, I agree with you. I think America should try to be like Germany where all college education is free for all citizens. In a true democracy, education should be a fundamental right, not a privilege for those with money.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You have refugees killing women in your own country. How about you deal with that first and less us and the US worry about our guns which btw is part of the second amendment.
This is downright silly. Please stop trying to delegitimize Bardock's arguments simply because you can't rebut them.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well, in that case, I agree with you. I think America should try to be like Germany where all college education is free for all citizens. In a true democracy, education should be a fundamental right, not a privilege for those with money.

This is downright silly. Please stop trying to delegitimize Bardock's arguments simply because you can't rebut them.

He had no argument, and his comment was sillier, btw why are you backseat modding?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
He had no argument, and his comment was sillier, btw why are you backseat modding?
He did have an argument, one you refused to recognize.

It's not backseat modding, it's calling on a friend to stop being obtuse to another friend. You don't have to like Bardock, but you shouldn't do all this petty deflection to avoid an earnest debate with him.

His comment on less guns makes zero sense. The only thin less guns will do is empower criminals who i can assure you have guns. debating guns is silly.

2nd Ammendment is what it is.

I would like to see someone try and repeal it

Why do you care about gun violence anyways?

How about curing cancer? Or banning tobacco.

They kill more people then guns.

People will always kill people.

Who the hell brough up guns in this thread anyways? Oh I forgot it was Bardock trying to derail the thread.

Go figure.

based on recent trends in the academic debate world, i'm guessing the inmates employed some sort of 'alternative debate tactic' such as attacking their opponents with sharpened tooth brushes.

Originally posted by red g jacks
based on recent trends in the academic debate world, i'm guessing the inmates employed some sort of 'alternative debate tactic' such as attacking their opponents with sharpened tooth brushes.

Seems like the win was fair and square. I know this bothers people though. You know minorities raining on the rich white kids PC parade.

Priceless.

Goes to show you that over priced education means jack shit when it comes to real world problems.

well, i'm sold.

to hell with university graduates. from here on out , i'm only hiring ex-cons.

And who is footing the bill for this?

Originally posted by psmith81992
And who is footing the bill for this?

All citizens, since they benefit from a well educated populace.

TI's lie about people's reaction:

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Seems like the win was fair and square. I know this bothers people though. You know minorities raining on the rich white kids PC parade.


The actual reaction:



Liar, you have no honor.

Originally posted by Bardock42
All citizens, since they benefit from a well educated populace. So healthcare and education should be free in this country?

Originally posted by psmith81992
So healthcare and education should be free in this country?

Yes. "Free" as in covered by taxes.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes. "Free" as in covered by taxes.

But that means we'll have what, a 55% tax rate?

Originally posted by psmith81992
But that means we'll have what, a 55% tax rate?

Well a 55% top income tax rate doesn't seem outlandish, tbh, but I don't think that would need to happen. The bargaining power of the government, and the added government oversight could take care of certain abuses in the medical industry (taking the recent Daraprim price hike scandal for example). Americans already pay more for healthcare than any other nation by a wide margin, this could be made better by single payer systems or completely tax payed health care.


The top tax rate in the UK is 45% I believe and they offer free health care.

You sure it's 45%? I was reading somewhere closer to 50% and that's a little more than I'm comfortable with.

Yes, as far as I can tell it is 45% for 2015/2016.

The US system appears more complicated to me, with payroll taxes, etc.

I guess for me it's more of a moral reason, I believe that all people should have access to good health care and education. I also believe that it has a big, positive benefit on a countries citizens as a whole.

Originally posted by Bardock42
TI's lie about people's reaction:



The actual reaction:



Liar, you have no honor.

You clearly missed the point o was talking about the PC brigade here, liar. Also was I talking to you, fool?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You clearly missed the point o was talking about the PC brigade here, liar. Also was I talking to you, fool?

No, you were lying to another poster. But on a public forum, so anyone can point out what a dishonorable, disingenuous person you are.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, you were lying to another poster. But on a public forum, so anyone can point out what a dishonorable, disingenuous person you are.

No you can't tell my my intent. Liar.

Like you lied about the tragic murder of a 11 year old and said it was misogcrap. You are a pathetic, anti feminist who's only goal it to lie about everything he posts.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
No you can't tell my my intent. Liar.

Like you lied about the tragic murder of a 11 year old and said it was misogcrap. You are a pathetic, anti feminist who's only goal it to lie about everything he posts.

a lie is not the same as a hasty conclusion. you should be able to empathize with that since you practically have a p.h.d. in making hasty conclusions.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
a lie is not the same as a hasty conclusion. you should be able to empathize with that since you practically have a p.h.d. in making hasty conclusions.

Like Brdock when he claimed Officer Wilson was a murder and a racist before all the facts came out? Or like when he said an 8 year old was misogcrap?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, as far as I can tell it is 45% for 2015/2016.

The US system appears more complicated to me, with payroll taxes, etc.

I guess for me it's more of a moral reason, I believe that all people should have access to good health care and education. I also believe that it has a big, positive benefit on a countries citizens as a whole.

See, you and I disagree with the level of access all people should have. I do believe everyone should have access to basic healthcare/emergency room/etc. As far as education, I wouldn't go as far as higher learning, at least not "free" but heavily discounted.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Like Brdock when he claimed Officer Wilson was a murder and a racist before all the facts came out? Or like when he said an 8 year old was misogcrap?

I still think Officer Wilson is a murderer and a racist. And I said an 11 year old was partly influenced by a culture of misogyny...


Originally posted by psmith81992
See, you and I disagree with the level of access all people should have. I do believe everyone should have access to basic healthcare/emergency room/etc. As far as education, I wouldn't go as far as higher learning, at least not "free" but heavily discounted.

Yeah, I mean we obviously generally fall on different sides of the political spectrum, definitely within different parties as far as the US is concerned.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I still think Officer Wilson is a murderer and a racist. And I said an 11 year old was partly influenced by a culture of misogyny...




Then you are clearly wrong when facts prove otherwise. And you lied about the article.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Then you are clearly wrong when facts prove otherwise. And you lied about the article.

It's a difference of opinion, I am not claiming that he was sentenced for murder, I'm saying he should have been. And no, I did not lie about the article.

Originally posted by psmith81992
See, you and I disagree with the level of access all people should have. I do believe everyone should have access to basic healthcare/emergency room/etc. As far as education, I wouldn't go as far as higher learning, at least not "free" but heavily discounted.

Without open access to that level of education there will always be people who are simply at a disadvantage in life. What's funny is that the U.S. uses a school system designed to indoctrinate the masses into a worker system, to make them complacent, to accept that role and to never question it. In countries where even entry and mid-level workers as well as lower income earners are able to get higher education with little to no cost the overall happiness of the countries--there is actually an index for measuring this--the quality of life there, and the satisfaction of the populous is higher. Crime rates are also lower.

Free education should be the norm. There should not be a cutoff in terms of having access to a means of being taught higher strata of how the world in which a person operates works. It is not part of the average high school curriculum to learn and fully discuss philosophy, sociology, higher math, science, and the like, but they are all part of our reality. Even master, graduate, and PHD programs should be free or supplemented for those who demonstrate the ability for them and would benefit both themselves, their communities, and future employers by having access to them.

There are certainly unnecessary costs that could be cut in the realm of higher education in order to make it more affordable for everyone. Cost is the only issue, is it not? Is there any other legitimate reason to say that anyone who wishes to should not be able to attend college and earn a degree other than that the cost to achieve that at this point is too high?

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's a difference of opinion, I am not claiming that he was sentenced for murder, I'm saying he should have been. And no, I did not lie about the article.

Prove he was racist, lair.

TI, cut this nonsense out. This is becoming outright harassment and I will ban for it. If you have an issue with Bardock, take it to PMs.

Let's get this whole thing back on topic.

Originally posted by Bardock42
TI's lie about people's reaction:



The actual reaction:



Liar, you have no honor.
And this post here? He started it, where is his warning, USH?

Seems you missed who started it here.

He was directly responding to something you said; you are now just stalking him around and posting the same attacks over and over, regardless of the sense of it. There's a difference, and if you can't understand that difference you should not be posting here.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
He was directly responding to something you said; you are now just stalking him around and posting the same attacks over and over, regardless of the sense of it. There's a difference, and if you can't understand that difference you should not be posting here.

And he's stalking me and posting the same thing over and over. Yet you do nothing.

Look who started it here.

I was minding my own business when he started harassing with the "liar!" Stuff, I don't see one warning for him?

In fact, I took a week off, and came back to him harassing me.

clearly they're in league with obama.

I could be a bit less confrontational, I'll try to do that. But on the whole I just don't agree with you on most topics, I definitely don't follow you around to attack you though.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I could be a bit less confrontational, I'll try to do that. But on the whole I just don't agree with you on most topics, I definitely don't follow you around to attack you though.

You have been following me around and starting fights. I took a week off and when I came back, said nothing to you until you started with the harassment. While I was gone you were baiting and trolling. You end up posting in accuracate facts about a 11 year old killed and blatantly call Wilson a racist and a murderer when you have zero evidence to back your claim. If you want to be less confrontational maybe you should check your bias.

I'll just drop this, I don't think there's a point arguing this, but I won't stop posting my opinion on topics.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'll just drop this, I don't think there's a point arguing this, but I won't stop posting my opinion on topics.

If you agree to stop with the liar bullshit, I'll stop. I don't appreciate you acting innocent either.

ugh...from now on, just say "deliberate mistruth".

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
ugh...from now on, just say "deliberate mistruth".

Look at you playing both sides, should I post your weeping ninnys post about hm and rob?

if you want to get more weird and stalkerish, i have no authority to stop you. so do as you will, i guess. *shrug*

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
if you want to get more weird and stalkerish, i have no authority to stop you. so do as you will, i guess. *shrug*

No it just proves you troll both sides and you really have contempt for anyone and everyone.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
No it just proves you troll both sides and you really have contempt for anyone and everyone.

i am indiscriminate with my contempt, i'll give you that. don't know why that computed as "playing both sides" in your brain. what if i just call BS, regardless of whether or not the culprit happens to be my special internet bro-friend?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
i am indiscriminate with my contempt, i'll give you that. don't know why that computed as "playing both sides" in your brain. what if i just call BS, regardless of whether or not the culprit happens to be my special internet bro-friend?

I thought you were my bro friend in this hughbox.

I agree 100% with Surtur. Even though this thread was made by TI for obvious reasons, I'm glad the important part of this topic was addressed.

I too, was ill with madness when I analysed the notion of convicts obtaining a better education than an average citizen.

It made me sick to my stomach, I must admit. And I'm not exaggerating.

Why? Well let's take a closer look:
I work around 50 hours a week in order to gain a miserable wage to pay to get into a college. I literally bust my ass all day, my fingers are worn out by the end of Monday, by the end of the week I can't even move the joystick from my Playstation controller because my fingers hurt quite a lot; and I'm not the type to complain about physical pain.

While prisoners that commit crimes are given an education for doing me harm, I'll be paying for their education with my tax dollar. How is that fair? We not only get hurt by them, but we also have to give them money for it.

The typical argument I see is prisoners should be given a second chance at life. Why should they have a higher priority than people that are hard workers and that follow the rules? What type of value is this? Honest-working-lawful citizens should be held to a greater priority than a petty or hard criminal.


If you want to play the circumstance game, then we can all play. You can say that Tommy was in a rough neighborhood when he was a kid, therefore his actions are justified and he should receive more government help due to unfortunate circumstances.

But what about Jill? She is a hardworking- lawful citizen that due to unfortunate circumstances decided to do things which hindered her grades at school so she didn't get scholarships.

Or Mickey? He, under unfortunate circumstances, was raised in a humble, but poor family. Poor Mickey had no money for college so he worked all his life in a miserable job that he detested.

All of these people had unfortunate circumstances, which some, effected their decisions; others were just unfortunate. Given the premise that people that commit bad choices should get a free (high level) education,. In such a case everyone should get should get a free education of the same level.

My problem with this isn't based on statues, it's based on priority based on statues. Should inmates receive basic human needs to make them better people? Of course. Should they receive a better lifestyle and education than good citizens? Of course not.

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but I think some of you need to think about this subject in a more critical manner and should try to look at this from a different lens. I will also like to apologize for a very bad articulated rant.

its interesting to see how the system works. Instead of blaming the injustice that you are required to work so hard to get something as basic as education, your anger is redirected at these convicts instead.

Rather than " hey, this is unfair, we all should get a good thing" your reaction is "hey, this is unfair, they should have a bad thing as well!"

Originally posted by Bardock42
its interesting to see how the system works. Instead of blaming the injustice that you are required to work so hard to get something as basic as education, your anger is redirected at these convicts instead.

Rather than " hey, this is unfair, we all should get a good thing" your reaction is "hey, this is unfair, they should have a bad thing as well!"

Would be nice if I could get a piece of that pie.

Originally posted by Bardock42
its interesting to see how the system works. Instead of blaming the injustice that you are required to work so hard to get something as basic as education, your anger is redirected at these convicts instead.

Rather than " hey, this is unfair, we all should get a good thing" your reaction is "hey, this is unfair, they should have a bad thing as well!"
That's not quite my position or point.

I do see your point, everyone should have a good education (I even made this point), but what are the odds of that happening? Are they higher than switching the positions that are currently in play? I highly doubt it.

This is why I asked people to use a different lens. You live in Germany, correct? To my understanding you had a free education. In the USA people are taught at school how to deal better with the unavoidable debt most of us will acquire (they even recommend good ramen), socially this is something that is a norm( they didn't mention doing time, though). It's not even that obscure of a thing, it's like saying politicians are corrupt; it's nothing new or surprising. Military members go recruiting into classes promising an education as long as you sign the dotted line, yes that is a norm.

How is there going to be an improvement of this country with people like TI concentrating more in making petty smears instead of addressing the real problems. This is the crap we have to live with on the regular.

Do you understand my pain now?

P.S. I'll probably be better off moving to Germany or other country in the Scandinavia.

Called me out for what? I think the story is interesting. And so do other people.

Call away boy!

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Called me out for what? I think the story is interesting. And so do other people.

Call away boy!
I'm not going to play this game with you, I've done it enough and arguing against fools is redundant.

I'd just wish you'd grow a pair and admit your true motives. At least Donald Trump can do that much, being less than Trump should be an embarrassment.

Ive never even talked to you before. Im sorry you have a problem with the article, reported for personal attacks though.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Ive never even talked to you before. Im sorry you have a problem with the article, reported for personal attacks though.
How are you not following the conversation we're having?
I never said I had a problem with the source, I clearly stated you had other motives. How do you not compute something that is in the same page?

Typical sissy liberal move, reporting me for hurting your feelings.

Lol, me a liberal

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Lol, me a liberal
I'm mocking you, idiot.

You will be banned soon, and we will all be mocking you.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You will be banned soon, and we will all be mocking you.
If that makes you sleep better, mkay.