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I will always enjoy this show..but I will admit the season opener had me disappointed. It wasn't necessarily bad..it was just more of the same. The Winchesters seem to be living some kind of twisted version of Groundhog Day where time passes, but they are caught in the same eternal cycle.

Big Bad released by one of the brothers? Check. The brothers already keeping secrets from each other despite time and time again this biting them in the ass? Check. One of the brothers suffering from some sort of potentially deadly affliction? Check.

I did like the parts with Crowley though.

Basically my thoughts word for word.

And the Darkness turns out to be a "Hot White Chick"........mmmyeah. Oh well. At least it wasn't just another Douche bag in a suit.

Well I doubt its true form is that chick, but they had to choose something.

I wonder if they are going to touch on the fact *Death itself no longer is alive*. Surely this would have some kind of effect on the universe? I mean Death was supposed to reap God.

I found the premiere to be underwhelming, and almost felt like I was watching the pilot for The Walking Dead again in some parts. Only entertaining bit for me was the Crowley orgy bit. Was good for a chuckle.

Better second episode. The season might have some hope yet.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well I doubt its true form is that chick, but they had to choose something.

I wonder if they are going to touch on the fact *Death itself no longer is alive*. Surely this would have some kind of effect on the universe? I mean Death was supposed to reap God. Wasn't the effect the darkness being released?

the darkness was released because the mark was destroyed.

as for the darkness' physical appearance, i figured that's the adult version of Amara she showed Dean. The Darkness likely doesn't have an actual appearance... it's probably just a cloud of smoke like demons and takes a host body.

That is the likely case, considering the Darkness even predates the concepts of time and space. It does make the whole timeline in the beginning a bit weird though. God and his Archangels fought the Darkness, but beings like Eve and the Leviathans predate even the Archangels. So the Darkness would have had to existed during the time they were created. Maybe that is the reason the Leviathans went bad in the first place. Got corrupted by the Darkness, so God had to create the Celestial host to defeat the Darkness and contain it, so that it wouldn't corrupt his future creations. Would make sense, considering we now know that it was in fact the reason for Lucifer's corruption.

history of the Darkness:

The Darkness "is born"

God "is born" Death "is born"... unknown which was "born" first

God creates Eve (i put her here because God apparently created something before the leviathans. not sure what else it could be.)

God created his first creatures, the leviathans... i assume for his own amusement.

(presumably) the darkness infected the leviathans

God created his second creatures, this time in his own image, the archangels (light)... in order to defeat the Darkness.

God created a seal for the darkness (the Mark) and gave it to Lucifer

God created more angels

God created purgatory because the leviathans were being naughty and (presumably) eating his angels.

God creates Heaven

God creates Earth and humans

the mark corrupts Lucifer who becomes jealous of humans

Lucifer gets booted from heaven

Lucifer creates the first demon, Lilith

(presumably) God creates hell and sends Lilith there

God replaces Lilith with Eve

Lucifer corrupts Eve, which cursed humanity with evil

Adam and Eve have Cain and Abel

Lucifer attempts to corrupt Abel, but Cain agreed to kill Abel in order for his soul to go to heaven and his own soul to go to hell.

Cain killed Abel with the first blade and Lucifer gave Cain the mark.

God got tired of Lucifer dicking around with his favorite creations and has Michael lock Lucifer in a cage in hell

Cain gets corrupted by the darkness and starts killing everything in his path

Cain kills himself and comes back as a demon and goes to hell and becomes the first knight

Cain meets his a woman, marries her and stops killing

the knights of hell kidnapped Cain's wife, forcing him to kill them all

Abaddon tricked Cain into killing his wife

Cain gives Dean the mark so that he can kill Abaddon

Crowley' mum destroys the mark

the Darkness is released

the Darkness take baby Amara as a host body and comes to Dean in a vision as adult Amara

Wait where was it said the darkness predates God? Or that it corrupted Lucifer?

Also yes I thought this episode was much better. I was also left wondering whether or not Billy the Reaper was in her own way trying to give Sam a hint on how to cure himself..or if she just slipped up in her wording.

The second episode was much, much better than the first. I loved the Ghostbusters line and Crowley stole every scene he was in. It was great when he suddenly reminded Dean just exactly who he is and as for that last scene... Well, let's just say that now I have hope for this season again.

Originally posted by Surtur
Wait where was it said the darkness predates God? Or that it corrupted Lucifer?


Death confirms both during his explanation in the season 10 finale. He says "Before there was light, before there was God and the Archangels, there wasn't nothing." There was a "destructive, amoral force" known as the Darkness. He then mentions how God sealed the Darkness with the Mark and passed it to Lucifer, but the mark revealed itself as the First Curse, and started to corrupt Lucifer, making him jealous of man.

Trying not to get my hopes up, but I have a feeling we might see some Archangels again in this season, at least in some aspect. We know they played a key role in stopping the Darkness last time. We've also been told that Michael and Lucifer are going apeshit inside the cage right now, because they can obviously feel that the Darkness is free, and when Sam asked God for a "sign" on what he needs to do, the imagery God sent him seemed eerily similar to when Lucifer and Michael were taking their frustrations out on him, when he was also trapped in the cage. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I would be surprised if we don't get at least a little Archangel action this season.

I am also glad Crowley is back to his old self..he was pretty much becoming this shows version of "Spike" from Buffy. At least Spike became whipped because of a chick instead of a bromance.

As for arch angels, at this point what arch angels are left? Gabriel and Raphael are both dead and Michael and Lucifer are locked up.

I also got the feeling the image had something to do with his time in the pit with Lucifer and Michael. Not that it was just similar imagery..but rather an actual memory.

It's possible that because Lucifer at one time was possessing Sam's body maybe deep down he has some of Lucifer's own memories locked away?

But yeah I thought there were only 4 arch angels. It would be REALLY stupid for the Winchesters to release Michael and Lucifer from the cage. Yet they have a habit of doing stupid things. I half expected Sam to be like "that might be for the best" when Billy told him that next time they died they'd be "accidentally" dropped into the void.

Also I made mention of Billy's wording and if she meant to give Sam a hint or not..I also wonder about the New Death and who it might be? Remember she said "the old death used to find it funny" implying there is a new Death.

Well, they left Gabriel's status a bit ambiguous. He seemingly dies at Lucifer's hand, but later makes an appearance during Metatron's whole thing with Castiel, and even though the whole thing was an illusion or something, Metatron remarks at the end that Gabriel played his part of "the trickster" perfectly. Jeremy Carver also said that some fan favourites are going to make a comeback in "surprising" ways. So maybe some visions of Pellegrino Lucifer getting back in Sam's head, or maybe some more porn tapes from Gabriel?

I agree that releasing Michael and Lucifer would be unbelievably stupid. Even if they managed to stop the Darkness, they'd pick up their own plans for the Apocalypse from where they left off last time.

And yeah, I also caught her saying "old" Death, which does imply that someone new took the mantel.

Also, the Crowley "candy" bit was brilliant. Good to see him finally acting like the King of Hell again.

You know I also did think at first Gabriel came back, especially because of the nature of what he is, but people kept telling me it was that Metatron chose to specifically create the illusion of Gabriel.

Which for me was odd because if Metatron was going to create illusions of someone to try to get Castiel on his side then why Gabriel? They showed no real connection. Hell Castiel had more of a connection to Meg then he did to Gabriel.

The angels brought up a good point too: Castiel has always chosen Sam and Dean over the other angels. I wonder if this is not out of just friendship, but guilt? The angels sat back and let events fold out in order for the Apocalypse to happen. Castiel himself is the one who freed Sam from Bobby's supernatural lock box..which allowed Sam to kill Lilith and all this stuff.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Death confirms both during his explanation in the season 10 finale. He says "Before there was light, before there was God and the Archangels, there wasn't nothing." There was a "destructive, amoral force" known as the Darkness. He then mentions how God sealed the Darkness with the Mark and passed it to Lucifer, but the mark revealed itself as the First Curse, and started to corrupt Lucifer, making him jealous of man.


oh, and in my summary of events, i meant to say that God created Lilith before the Leviathans, not Eve... but after thinking about it, that doesn't make sense because Lilith was a human and God didn't create humans until after the Leviathans.

Makes me wonder what those first creations were, if not the Leviathans were sent to purgatory.

Supernatural timeline isn't consistent.

Eve was supposed to have been before the angels and around with the Leviathans.

Which wouldn't make sense.

Wasn't the Eve in Supernatural the mother of all the different species of monsters including the leviathans from season 6?

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Wasn't the Eve in Supernatural the mother of all the different species of monsters including the leviathans from season 6? She didn't make the leviathans, but she made all the other monsters, at least the alphas.

The leviathans seemed to hold her in contempt, one even calling her a "whore". With this latest episode it seems like Crowley is starting to realise that he might have bitten off more than he can chew. But what did he expect when it took God, plus at least the 4 archangels we know of, just to imprison her the first time. I keep thinking back to what the one writer said at comic-con about favourites returning in "surprising ways", especially with the laptop acting weird and switching to "fortune nookie" when Castiel was trying to do research. Just feels awful Gabriel-like to me. Or it could be nothing, but the writers rarely put something like that in without reason.

Gabriel coming back would be one of the best things that could happen.

I still don't believe he let Lucifer kill him.

I hope we get a John appearance. If God comes back and John Winchester is his host body all the bad seasons would be worth it.

Nah, we already know Chuck is supposed to be God. They kind of bashed us over the head with it when he narrated the one episode and directly addressed the audience members before and after. Not to mention the fact that there can only be one Prophet at a time (which he initially claimed he was), yet we know he is still around (he shows up during the Fan fiction episode), but that there have also been other prophets, like Kevin.

Are we 100% sure there can only be one prophet at a time though? I realize Castiel said that, but if I remember correctly, Chuck was shown to be alive in the future where Lucifer took Sam as a host body and the Croatoa plague was infecting everyone. I realize that future technically never happened as Lucifer and Michael (and Adam) get locked away, but it was shown. Are we sure that God didn't just resurrect Chuck after Kevin died like he's resurrected Castiel multiple times?

Except it'd make no sense for God to just resurrect him again and again when there would be new prophets to take his place. Plus, the whole single prophet thing was part of the one plotline where I think it was still Crowley who was trying to round them all up, in case one of them is the next chosen one. Then there is also this:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/supernatural/images/e/ea/ChuckDisappearing.gif/revision/latest?cb=20110802111930

Him literally teleporting from the screen, after finishing writing the one Supernatural "manuscript" and directly talking to the viewer. That's not a power any Prophet I know of has displayed.

See, that's part of the problem with the story. Early on Castiel said that all angels know the names of all the prophets. The instance you're talking about with Crowley torturing an angel to gain all the names of the prophets so he could have the Angel tablet deciphered showed that to be true, and all the angels, Castiel, Raphael, and Zachariah included, knew Chuck as a prophet. Zachariah was even able to give Chuck false visions to set a trap for Sam and Dean. Are you saying that was all just God, who apparenlty was Chuck all along, playing along for effect, and also just playing along in that post apocalyptic future timeline where he was a survivor with Dean and Castiel, or that the real Chuck the Prophet died and passed the prophet mantle along to Kevin while God uses Chuck's body as his vessel after he died?

I always thought Chuck sort of "ascended" to some higher level, becoming more then just a prophet, which would explain his teleporting away. I know the people behind the show said Chuck was God, but it doesn't actually make any sense for him to 100% of been God. So maybe if Chuck was indeed real and did interact with the Winchesters, but God also took on Chuck's form to provide some extra help.

Since why the hell was God living in the future in a shithole with no toilet paper, or anything? What does God get out of that? It makes no sense. You could at least say God posing as Chuck allows him to help the Winchesters out without them knowing God was helping..since maybe they'd begin to rely on him too much if they knew he was actively helping.

The problem is since he is God you could hand wave all the shit that doesn't make sense with "he works in mysterious ways". But that isn't good enough and doesn't explain why Chuck was in the future shithole Lucifer was in control of.

Also other things with God make no sense like the necklace for tracking God. Why is this an item? He is God, if he doesn't want to be found it won't matter(they even say this) and if he DID want to be found he is God and could just appear to you.

I also refuse to believe God has such low taste he'd f*ck Becky and get involved with her. Strippers are one thing, but no..never Becky.

I was waiting for Crowley to point out to Amara there is no reason to fear God anymore..the dude has left the building.

Originally posted by Mindset
Gabriel coming back would be one of the best things that could happen.

I still don't believe he let Lucifer kill him.

I don't think he let Lucifer kill him either...most characters killed on this show don't actually sit back and let it happen. Now..if Lucifer is truly the one who taught him all his "tricks" it would be stupid for him to try to use those to kill Lucifer.

On the other hand Sam and Dean have tricked Gabriel on multiple occasions in the past so he's not really the brightest angel out there. I'd actually be curious to see what Kali is up to.

Well, would it surprise you that much if he was just going along with it for the sake of shits and giggles? He has apparently been dicking around ever since Gadreel let the Serpent into the Garden of Eden.

Besides, there were also instances where the Archangels were specifically trying to hide locations from him, yet he knew them anyway. And if he was God it would probably be well within his power to hide his true nature from others. As previously stated, he has been hiding for ages upon ages and no one in the show has any clue as to where he supposedly is or who he is. Also, he apparently washed his hands of everything, and has been willing to let the world fall into different versions of the Apocalypse numerous times now (Lucifer/Michael, Godstiel, Leviathans etc.). And like I said, it also doesn't explain the season 5 finale, where he displays abilities no other Prophet has ever come close to displaying. That, and all we know about Prophets says there can only be one at a time (anything else is speculation really), yet we know Kevin was the last Prophet.

Look, they never outright state he is God, but they do things to imply it. So it is up to personal interpretation. But for me, based on what we know, Chuck Shurley is the alias he is using to hide on Earth. At least currently. Your idea that he might really have been a former Prophet, but then was taken as God's vessel after he died, because there would already be a naturally strong link there, could certainly be the explanation.

But to be fair we were never given some in depth look at everything a prophet can or can't do and the show tends to flat out ignore shit they set up.

You know..like "prophets have arch angels protecting them" and Kevin was in danger multiple times without any arch angel showing up, even prior to heaven being locked.

In Supernatural it seems like the rules..aren't really the rules, just guidelines. But it also doesn't explain why he gets shits and giggles from staying in a shitty camp ground with dozens of people? That isn't God trolling anyone that is.well, just not sure what it does. Unless he just really wanted to remind Dean to remember toilet paper if the Apocalypse happens.

Originally posted by Surtur
I also refuse to believe God has such low taste he'd f*ck Becky and get involved with her. Strippers are one thing, but no..never Becky.



Good point. Well, the one way it'd make sense is if we look at MF's idea of Chuck really being a Prophet initially, but later being killed, and then resurrected to be used as God's vessel. But that also doesn't really make sense, because he did the whole teleport thing and shit in season 5, when he was supposed to still be just a Prophet, IIRC. **** it, this show isn't really that consistent in anyways.

On an unrelated note... angels... wtf... when did the average angel become hardly any better than the average foot slogging demon? When Castiel first appeared he was nigh-unstoppable, and now regular humans can trade punches with them sometimes. Hell, Cas' most impressive feat of actual mystical power recently was telekinetically removing a few pins from his head. Crowley does shit like that casually.

Also, would that shitty campground mean anything to him really? He has lived through things like the Black Plague and Abba, so how bad could it get?

I still think there was probably a real bonafide prophet named Chuck. He was probably murdered for helping the Winchesters and quite possibly by the same angels meant to protect him.

So Chuck is dead and God see's the perfect person to mimic in order to lend a hand. Remember when Chuck had a vision and was intent on telling Sam and Dean and then Zachariah forced him to not say anything? I dunno, feels like that was more Chuck then an actual God.

It also might fit in with God's dickish sense of humor. Remember Chuck thought he was a God when he first met Sam and Dean.

Or it is possible Chuck was indeed a real person, but was killed before Sam and Dean ever met him and God just took his place.

Well, I don't think we will have a definitive answer either way. The clear implication the writers are trying to create, at least nowadays, is that Chuck is/was God. Whether it was their initial intention, who knows? Remember, the show was actually supposed to end with the stopping of the Apocalypse at season 5, so that last word bit from Chuck, before he teleports away, was originally supposed to be the last words of the show. But in the 5 and a bit seasons since then, they have retconned or changed a ton of things, so who really knows what is going on?

Basically though, the real point I am trying to make is that the chances of getting a Jeffrey Dean Morgan version of God is very very unlikely (even though it'd be great, he's a good actor).

But seriously, am I the only one who is bugged by how shit angels have gotten? In earlier seasons, Castiel was able to shatter a heavy stone wall with a light tap, and lift and hold a 1 ton anvil like it was a paper cup. Yet nowadays he can't even KO Dean, even when bloodlusted.

Yeah, they seem to have cut back on a lot of superhuman physical abilities. At least with Castiel they had the excuse of losing his grace and whatnot, but none of the other angels or even Mark of Cain/Demon Dean was very impressive. Things have been watered down since the Leviathans.

I wonder if Rekha Sharma/Kali will ever make another appearance? Wasn't she the only godhead to survive Lucifer's massacre because Gabriel was in love with her and helped her escape?

Personally I just thought it was because there was a part of Castiel that was trying not to kill Dean. Remember Castiel is practically as close to being in love with Dean as he can be without it turning into something gay. But yeah it used to be that a human even punching an angel would hurt like hell.

Also wtf was with that random scene in the latest episode with a random demon and a random angel at a bar talking like friends? It actually made me interested in who they were, but I don't know if it was put there for a grander purpose or just to let us know both heaven and hell were clueless as to how to deal with the Darkness.

Originally posted by Surtur
Personally I just thought it was because there was a part of Castiel that was trying not to kill Dean. Remember Castiel is practically as close to being in love with Dean as he can be without it turning into something gay. But yeah it used to be that a human even punching an angel would hurt like hell.

See, that's the thing exactly. People should be breaking bones (or at least bruising them) punching angels. But a while back there were still those "elite" angels who were supposedly older and stronger than most others, yet in the end fight it was a 3-on-1 way bar room style brawl between it, Sam, Dean and Cas, with the brothers trading multiple punches with it. Dean could still be justified, because he had the Mark at the time, but how is human Sam rocking a millenia old celestial being with straight punches???

Originally posted by Surtur

Also wtf was with that random scene in the latest episode with a random demon and a random angel at a bar talking like friends? It actually made me interested in who they were, but I don't know if it was put there for a grander purpose or just to let us know both heaven and hell were clueless as to how to deal with the Darkness.

I think it was just to kind of show how everyone was at a loss with how to deal with the Darkness, and to show just how disorganised Heaven and Hell both are right now. I personally think it'd make a sweet Supernatural buddy comedy spinoff though.

Another random observation on the Chuck is God thing. Humanity was God's favourite creation apparently (at least based on the level of jealousy the angels show towards them, and their attitude of contempt), and the Apocalypse would have been literal Hell on Earth. All the events that occurred, including Chuck's contributions, led to the two key components of said Apocalypse being locked in an inescapable prison. So things turned out just like he wanted in the end. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to believe that he let certain things still happen, if he knew that his end game would remain unaffected. But that is just my personal interpretation.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
But seriously, am I the only one who is bugged by how shit angels have gotten? In earlier seasons, Castiel was able to shatter a heavy stone wall with a light tap, and lift and hold a 1 ton anvil like it was a paper cup. Yet nowadays he can't even KO Dean, even when bloodlusted. Winchesters have superhuman durability.

Unless you use their weakness, which seems to be getting pistol whipped in the back of the head.

Still though, you have to admit, if you look at Castiel's debut and early showings, he looked a lot more impressive there than current restored Seraph Castiel does 99% of the time. The only justification I can think of for this is that all angels affected by the Fall's power levels decreased permanently. We already know that they lost their ability to just swoop around on a whim, and need to drive/walk like normal people to get from place to place. But that wouldn't explain why Abaddon (one of the strongest demons in history) was still scared to face a weakened Gadreel.

So even after 11 years the show can still surprise you. This latest episode was quite good to me..and done from the point of view of the Impala.

The Castiel/Dean phone call bit was brilliant.

With regards to Sam's vision:

So some being seems to be communicating with Sam, but I don't personally think it is God. The fact that they said "I could never fool you" suggests a relationship that goes back awhile. And the whole torture, chains and torment thing suggests memories from the cage. Maybe Lucifer? He spent ages trying to corrupt Sam into being his vessel, and even later remained stuck in his head, tormenting and screwing with him. Also, maybe I am reading too much into the "only you two can stop it", but we also know that the brothers are the true vessels of Michael and Lucifer, two of the beings who initially fought and helped defeat the Darkness. Only problem is that Lucifer is supposed to be stuck in the cage, so I have no idea how he would be getting into Sam's head.

I was just thinking it would be hilarious if once the series ends..you have both Sam and Dean alive and they have stopped some big great evil and are ready to retire as hunters. Then..they are arrested for multiple cases of credit card fraud, impersonating police officers, impersonating fbi agents, etc. and thrown in prison for the rest of their lives.

Their biggest foe of all..Uncle Sam.

But yeah, Sam's vision actually being Lucifer would make the most sense, the "I could never fool you" line doesn't make sense coming from anyone else.

plot twist: it's YED.

Originally posted by Surtur
I was just thinking it would be hilarious if once the series ends..you have both Sam and Dean alive and they have stopped some big great evil and are ready to retire as hunters. Then..they are arrested for multiple cases of credit card fraud, impersonating police officers, impersonating fbi agents, etc. and thrown in prison for the rest of their lives.

Their biggest foe of all..Uncle Sam.

.

And then Dean quotes Bill Murray from Ghostbusters. "We go to prison, it will be quite , we will enjoy it" line.

Another thing to consider is that the episode where the Impala's story started being told was "Swansong", the season 5 finale where Lucifer & Michael got locked in the cage and Chuck did his disappearing act thing at the end.

Then in the story we have Sam's torture visions and the weird conversation with an entity who seems very familiar with him, and Castiel's whole "fortune nookie" thing, which all feels like archangel interference to me personally. The only problem is that we don't really know whether Gabriel is truly alive or dead, and Michael and Lucifer shouldn't really be able to do anything from the cage. The demons did say they could hear the two of them going crazy from inside the cage when they felt the Darkness being released, so maybe Lucifer still has enough power to reach out and speak to his true vessel?

Or hell, maybe Metatron figured out how to harness some of the power of the demon tablet and is commencing in some epic trolling.

It could be that the Darkness escaping maybe put a few cracks in the cage and thus Lucifer can communicate with Sam in certain ways. As for why Michael hasn't done something similar with Dean..could be Amara is preventing it. Or it could be when Death went and got Sam's soul he is the one who put the cracks in the cage and then with his death the cracks became unsealed.

This latest episode had a nice "monster of the week" feel and yet at the same time Amara isn't just some monster of the week so the episode had a nice tone. I actually liked the soul less guy and felt worse for him then I felt for anyone else in the episode to get soul sucked.

For me though the problem is that they allowed the guy to turn himself in for the murders..the problem being that sooner or later he is going to flip out and kill an inmate or a guard. It is more likely an inmate will die then a guard..and while true the person would be a criminal they might not necessarily be a murderer that deserves to die.

It sucks, but it would of been safer for everyone if they did indeed kill the guy. Or they locked him up in their "Men of Letters" lair. But just "yeah turn yourself in" seemed like Dean didn't put much thought into it. Perhaps he didn't want to put a lot of thought into it because he didn't want to kill the guy.

Actually best not to think about it because when I do..even if the guy had a lot of knowledge of the crimes due to his peeping..there would of still been a lot of evidence that would need to be lost or edited.

Well, as mentioned in the show, Michael and Lucifer have been kicking up so much noise inside the Cage that the entire Hell is getting nervous about it. So if the common demon can hear Lucifer's screams, it'd stand to reason that if he tried hard enough, he might be able to communicate with his true vessel. And as to Michael? He, quite frankly, is an even bigger dick than Lucifer. And given how the Darkness said that she and Dean are "connected", he is probably mistrustful of communication with someone who has the touch of the Darkness on them.

Yeah, the guy turning himself in bit was stupid. Kind of like they had to tie up a loose end but wasn't sure what to do with him. What I did find very interesting was how two people react so differently to having their souls removed.

I agree. I feel like Supernatural actually is at its strongest when it does the monster of the week thing, but with elements of the main plot interlaced into the story.

I wonder when Metatron is coming back though. They've shoehorned his name into way too many conversations over the last two episodes to just leave it at that. And he does still have the demon tablet, so that needs to be addressed.

Yeah there are a lot of potential villains running around. Amara, Crowley, Metatron. Then lets not forget the reapers have vowed to toss Sam and Dean into an empty void next time they die.

If I was a writer on this show I'd absolutely be pushing for a web series to follow Castiel's Netflix adventures. Though one potential plot hole: I thought Metatron put every story told into Castiel's head? Not a huge deal though.

So the Darkness is God's sister.

That's a pretty interesting twist.

Also looks like Lucifer may be coming back.

Yeah, and now I am curious as to why he had to lock her up to create the universe. And that last vision from Sam seems to pretty much confirm the suspicions that it has been Lucifer who was the one causing all of that. Now all we need are some more porn-related prophecy references to bring Gabriel into it as well.

This has been the most entertaining season for a couple years imo.

I felt like they dropped the ball with leviathans and mark of Cain, which is disappointing because those were good concepts to work with.

Yeah, I was disappointed by season 10, but season 11 has been one of the better seasons for a long time so far.

I had one thought about the Cage though. Wouldn't those have been Michael's hands showing actually, considering he is the one still actually inside a vessel in there, as Sam got pulled out?

It's almost like demons on the show that aren't named Crowley have forgotten they have telekinetic powers.

That actually just reminded me... that TK arm snap had one of the worst prosthetics I have seen in a very long time. You could clearly see it was a fake rubber hand when Crowley's arm bent. But yeah, Angels and Demons have all seemingly forgotten that they have mystical powers to draw on, and don't need to punch everything. I remember the days when the average foot soldier Demon had tk and enough strength to toss around both Winchesters at once, and Angels being nigh-unstoppable celestial avatars that made all other mystical creatures cower in fear. It's probably the only real gripe I have with the show right now. A lot of beings have gotten watered down in terms of power over the years.

I have to say I noticed that as well with the hand thing..almost as if it was meant to be comical. Which...I suppose with this show there is that chance.

Sam and Dean used to rightfully fear demons. I know they have seen and done a lot, but Sam was trying to take them on using friggin handcuffs, alone.

I thought it would say the Darkness was God's child, but it's his sister. So then who are their parents?

It's also painfully obvious Amara wants to undo everything God created. I don't know if that means Earth or the entire universe. We know planets with other life exist in this universe just based on the comments of the more cosmic scale characters.

If nothing else, it's a very impressive healing feat for Crowley, as he doesn't have a single mark on him the next time we see him, and Amara messed him up badly.

I also was thinking where the heck did God and his sister come from then? Unless it is a Galactus/cosmically empowered survivors from the previous universe type thing. But I guess it will all be revealed with time.

I still want to know what the point of the cuffs were as well. Was he just trying to show off or something? He was still like "Eh... two out of three" after he was forced to kill one. And I know Sam is a big strong guy, but he should not be manhandling three demons like they are fodder. Hell, just consider how hard Dean had to fight against 3 demons just to beat them and earn Cain's respect. But Sam is taking on three and is so confident he decides to capture instead of kill. So even between then and now the demons have taken a dive in power.

Yeah, and seemingly suck up all the souls of every living being while she is at it. But definitely, just based on Gabriel's conversation with Kali from season 5 IIRC, about "ditching" Earth, because of the whole Apocalypse thing, and heading off to one of the other planets to have some fun indicates that there is definitely more beyond Earth. Death's previous comments about how Earth is also only one little planet under his gaze in the grand scheme of things also strongly indicates the same.

The show has been on long enough that various plot holes begin to creep up. Like in the first season demons did not have to smoke into and out of bodies, it was just one way to possess. Normal demons took over bodies via touch as well. Then when they encountered that first demon on the airplane it had the whole thing of getting stronger if removed from the body and turning into some larger black cloud then it was already. I guess it's like the "Vampire Diaries" where early in the series Damon could fly and conjure smoke and ravens.

That is the first season, so it might be excusable, but now we have Amara, who feeds on souls, feeding on demons. Yet during the whole thing in season 7 with Kevin and the tablet it was pointed out Crowley doesn't have a soul due to being a demon. He tried to sell his soul to the God of Greed.

Also with the cuffs maybe they had symbols carved on them to lock the demon in? Like they have on their trunk. They also have an out for why Sam can do this even though they don't use it: demon blood. Sam doesn't need to drink it to get powers from it. It's what made him immune to Croatoan. They could at least say it gave him some small level of supernatural strength left over from all the demon blood he did chug in the past. His demon blood is also how I originally thought he'd beat the Darkness infection.

I guess it could be the shows way of showing Sam is the more skilled hunter, which I guess technically he is on a purely physical level. Which okay hunting comes down to physicality, knowledge, and instinct so I guess you could say Sam overall is the better hunter.

I kind of missed the YED, he was cool. He had a way about him...and he could do crazy shit like possess reapers.

The brothers have used 'demon" cuffs in the past so that not a big deal though I'd argue Sam being able to fight them 1v1 is a big deal.

Also I believe that demons were rectonned to battered ghosts when the whole demon cure thing was introduced.

I would not call it a retcon..it's just their origins were fleshed out more. Especially since it just made sense since they are the souls of people who went to hell. Just like ghosts are the souls of people who didn't go to heaven or hell.

I did take issue with the whole "destroy their bones" thing working on demons. For me it made more sense for ghosts because they were sort of bound here and didn't want to leave. It also makes me wonder if you sold your soul and then when you are killed by hell hounds..if they salt and then burn your bones do you still go to hell?

Also notice people sell their souls for really shitty things? At least ask for super powers, not to be really good at being an architect or something.

The salt/burning bones working on demons is pretty dumb. Though that whole thing was just an excuse to flesh out Crowley's character and kind of annoyed that its a staple now.

Based on Sam's own admission though, Dean is the better hunter. Dean certainly has the better kill list. Admittedly, my memory of earlier seasons has some holes, but the only really big bads I can remember Sam killing were Lilith and Alastair. In comparison, Dean took out Azazel, Zachariah, Dick Roman, Eve, Abaddon, Cain and even Death. Dean has also solo'd entire vampire nests on his own before, and survived a year in Purgatory. There is a reason Dean is the one people/monsters generally seem more afraid of.

I'd argue Sam's best feat is a willpower feat, when he briefly overcame Lucifer to pull him and Michael into the cage.

One thing that does bug me a little bit is that the brothers are sitting on a giant magical arsenal of spells and things, yet make no efforts to learn any of it. James Frampton showed that magic can be used without the person being corrupted, and the brothers are happy to cast spells when they really need to. Seems like they are wasting a lot of useful resources.

I am not suggesting they go full Rowena or anything but, considering how often they end up looking for people or items, you'd think that they would have taught themselves some basic scrying/tracking spells by now.

But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I am not suggesting they go full Rowena or anything but, considering how often they end up looking for people or items, you'd think that they would have taught themselves some basic scrying/tracking spells by now. If you've been doing something for decades and it works, why change?

And it's just a mindset thing, there was always a divide between the Men of Letters and hunters. They are trained hunters, so that's what they do, hunt.

Originally posted by Surtur
But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.

Dean has flat out Batman'd several villains though. He is the better hunter imo, but it should also be remembered that he does have more experience due to Sam going off to try to have a normal life.

What happened to Crowley's Mom?.

Originally posted by Surtur
But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.

True, but at the same time, Sam was hopped up on Demon Juice when he took out both Lilith and Alastair, so he had a huge advantage there as well.

The Colt was opportunity yes, but a lot of the others weren't. For example, it was Dean's plan to swallow the phoenix ashes and trick Eve into biting him. And he had to first earn Cain's respect to get the mark, and then defeated both knights of hell individually. And as mentioned, Sam himself has said that Dean is a better hunter than he is. Hell, IIRC, Dean is even better than John in Sam's opinion.

Both are formidable, but Dean has more consistent showings of pulling off the big important things than Sam does. But again, as we all seemingly agree, neither of them should be so formidable that they can take on 3 demons at once with little more than handcuffs, magical ones or not.

Originally posted by Mindset
If you've been doing something for decades and it works, why change?

And it's just a mindset thing, there was always a divide between the Men of Letters and hunters. They are trained hunters, so that's what they do, hunt.

I get the whole "If it isn't broke, then don't fix it" idea. But I still feel like they could make their lives and job a lot easier if they simply expanded their basic magical knowledge and arsenal. For example, why did they never ask Kevin to teach them how to make those demon killing bombs? Seems like those would be extremely useful.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
True, but at the same time, Sam was hopped up on Demon Juice when he took out both Lilith and Alastair, so he had a huge advantage there as well.

Well yeah those aren't things I am going to cite for Sam. Sam did a good job fighting vamp Gordon and stuff though.



Dean came up with a good plan to defeat Eve yeah, but they have both come up with good plans for defeating people.

I am not trying to take credit away from Dean, just saying that a lot of the things weren't things that would necessarily be stuff Sam couldn't of done.



I know, but a lot of those big important things you talk about were not truly Dean. Dean was involved, but it wasn't just him.

I think both have come up with good schemes and iced bad guys and all that stuff. I guess if anything they are equal. Dean consistently gets a big win with help, but on average the effectiveness of them seems to wax and wane depending on the episode and the season.

Sam also looks up to Dean..of course he thinks Dean is better.

Dean is better than Sam.

This is a Supernatural fact.

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I think the way to beat Amara will be Dean having to die. It would be a better explanation as to why she saved Dean from Crowley.

Well, I will say that the Winchesters are both pretty boss in the show, except the times when PIS/CIS requires them to get clobbered over the head and tied to something, so that one of the guest stars of the episode can have some epiphany, find inner strength, and save them. Sam was pretty boss that time he killed a hell hound one-on-one though, considering you can't even see those f****** normally.

I mean I think Sam was good when he killed Gordon too. Also remember the second Trickster episode. Sam was on his own for months before time was rewound and Dean came back. We hear Sam was taking out entire vamp nests alone, etc.

Probably the weakest episode so far this season. Sam is kind of a dick though with the whole "the fat soccer mom?" comment.

Though it had me wondering if the person that contacted Sam in his visions was not Lucifer, but maybe the YED who somehow returned from the dead? Think about it, the "I could never fool you" line makes even more sense coming from YED then it does Lucifer. Remember when Sam got his visions in the past it usually had to do with the YED.

We also know the YED worked for Lucifer and wanted him free, so maybe he is trying to manipulate Sam into opening up the cage again to free Lucifer? By making him think Lucifer could help with the Darkness. Though I guess it is more likely it is just Lucifer himself doing it.

I like this season better than the past 2-3 seasons but this show still needs to end soon. The repetition is killing me.


And Sam is a better hunter than Dean. Not even talking about his solo kills but he's much better at research, which would make a huge difference. Dean's cooler/more popular though, so he gets lip service.

Completely wrong.

So Dean's a better researcher than Sam, research isn't important and Dean's not cooler/more popular? Really?

Sam's smarter, but Dean's more lethal and more likely to get the job done, particularly when things get messy. It's like picking Ryu or Ken.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Sam's smarter, but Dean's more lethal and more likely to get the job done, particularly when things get messy. It's like picking Ryu or Ken.

See, I disagree here. Sam's more lethal than Dean because he's so smart. Dean might be quicker to try and kill something but Sam would have the better chance of getting it done.

Also, when Sam goes "dark," he's a whole lot scarier than Dean. That's because, as the characters have mentioned, Sam is more like their father. He can become so focused on a target, he'll risk losing his soul (so to speak) to accomplish his mission of vengeance. Look at how he was when he was after Lilith or when tracking down the Trickster.

I disagree that Sam is "smarter" than Dean. Dean has on plenty of occasions shown himself to be a very intelligent, as well as a capable strategist and leader, and has sometimes even surprised Sam with his knowledge of obscure lore Sam wasn't even aware of. They just have different areas where they excel at. Sam has the more researcher's mind (unsurprising, considering his plans for college etc), where as Dean has more of a soldier/military mindset. It's what makes them such an effective team. They compliment each other.

On to the actual episode... those costumes were creepy as f***.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
See, I disagree here. Sam's more lethal than Dean because he's so smart. Dean might be quicker to try and kill something but Sam would have the better chance of getting it done.

Also, when Sam goes "dark," he's a whole lot scarier than Dean. That's because, as the characters have mentioned, Sam is more like their father. He can become so focused on a target, he'll risk losing his soul (so to speak) to accomplish his mission of vengeance. Look at how he was when he was after Lilith or when tracking down the Trickster.
I'd disagree there as well because, as has been shown in various seasons, Sam is more likely to hold back. He's capable of "going dark", but he's very apprehensive about doing so, and those instances of being so focused he's willing to lose his soul are few and far between. Dean, on the other hand, doesn't have as many reservations. That is why, as mentioned before, Dean was able to thrive in Purgatory, and is more likely to get jobs done. In the field having to adapt on the fly I'm rolling with Dean. If I have time to prepare I'm asking Sam to assist, but Dean's likely going to end up saving our asses if the plan falls through.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I disagree that Sam is "smarter" than Dean. Dean has on plenty of occasions shown himself to be a very intelligent, as well as a capable strategist and leader, and has sometimes even surprised Sam with his knowledge of obscure lore Sam wasn't even aware of. They just have different areas where they excel at. Sam has the more researcher's mind (unsurprising, considering his plans for college etc), where as Dean has more of a soldier/military mindset. It's what makes them such an effective team. They compliment each other.

On to the actual episode... those costumes were creepy as f***.

Akin to the Ken vs. Ryu analogy, in intelligence they're Reed Richards (Sam) vs. Tony Stark (Dean).

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'd disagree there as well because, as has been shown in various seasons, Sam is more likely to hold back. He's capable of "going dark", but he's very apprehensive about doing so, and those instances of being so focused he's willing to lose his soul are few and far between. Dean, on the other hand, doesn't have as many reservations. That is why, as mentioned before, Dean was able to thrive in Purgatory, and is more likely to get jobs done. In the field having to adapt on the fly I'm rolling with Dean. If I have time to prepare I'm asking Sam to assist, but Dean's likely going to end up saving our asses if the plan falls through.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
So Dean's a better researcher than Sam, research isn't important and Dean's not cooler/more popular? Really? Sam isn't really a better researcher, Dean just doesn't like doing it so he makes Sam do it, this has been touched on in the episodes.

Dean comes up with plans just as well as Sam does.

I don't think Dean is more popular, actually. They seem to have the same amount of fans.

I think Sam is overall the smarter of the two, but that is just me. Notice I said overall though and didn't specify the smarter hunter. But I think the theme here is that Sam has the capability..he just doesn't have the drive. Not like Dean does.

Whoever brought up purgatory, that was a good example. I think Sam could of survived purgatory, but I think the difference is a part of Dean enjoyed it.

That is why I could never see Dean settling down long term. Yeah he had that year with Lisa, but he'd gone through a lot the previous 5 years. When Sam was with Amy or Emily or Amelia or whatever her name was..he was with her, fully. He didn't try to save Dean or bring him back. Dean can't say the same thing about his year with Lisa.

Being "smarter" is very subjective though. For example, who is really "smarter"? A renowned scientific researcher, or a renowned military general? I haven't seen anything to suggest to me either brother is smarter overall, but they do certainly each have areas where they excel over the other. Like I mentioned earlier, they are kind of the yin to each others yang, in that they provide a very good balance as a team. Both would have made awful original Men of Letters though. They aren't capable of sitting on their asses that long doing nothing while just hoarding books and artifacts.

I don't think it could be YED aka Azazel, unless the writers plan to really butcher their own canon, considering he was killed by the Colt, which means he should be very very dead and not coming back. I personally still feel it is Lucifer sending Sam messages.

Also, Dean, on the Cage, in the end of the previous episode: "Not gonna happen". Famous last words.

It being the yellow eyed demon would be incredibly stupid.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Being "smarter" is very subjective though. For example, who is really "smarter"? A renowned scientific researcher, or a renowned military general? I haven't seen anything to suggest to me either brother is smarter overall, but they do certainly each have areas where they excel over the other. Like I mentioned earlier, they are kind of the yin to each others yang, in that they provide a very good balance as a team. Both would have made awful original Men of Letters though. They aren't capable of sitting on their asses that long doing nothing while just hoarding books and artifacts.

I don't think it could be YED aka Azazel, unless the writers plan to really butcher their own canon, considering he was killed by the Colt, which means he should be very very dead and not coming back. I personally still feel it is Lucifer sending Sam messages.

Also, Dean, on the Cage, in the end of the previous episode: "Not gonna happen". Famous last words.

But how can Sam not be smarter over all, didn't he get into somewhere like Stanford? Something tells me Dean isn't smarter then Sam when it comes to math, science, or non-paranormal history.

Originally posted by Mindset
It being the yellow eyed demon would be incredibly stupid.

It would be stupid, but then I could overlook it because I like the YED.

Sam was getting his law degree. I don't know if they ever said what his undergrad was, but unless it was a STEM degree, he just did the intro level science/math classes and those are easy as shit.

Originally posted by Surtur
But how can Sam not be smarter over all, didn't he get into somewhere like Stanford? Something tells me Dean isn't smarter then Sam when it comes to math, science, or non-paranormal history.

Absence of evidence isn't really evidence though. We have no real idea what Dean would have done if he wasn't a hunter and raised the way he was by John. And both brothers have shown an understanding of things like science and chemistry, like when they make homemade explosives and things. And the history thing is not really the best example, considering we know Sam is a history geek and that Dean doesn't care much for that stuff.

And I didn't say Dean is smarter than Sam. I actually said they both have areas they excel at. For example, let's say Sam might be better at math. On the flip side, based on what we know, he doesn't have anywhere near Dean's knowledge of fixing and repairing, mechanical things etc.

Also, knowledge =/= wisdom or intelligence. I know plenty of people who know a lot of facts, but are not necessarily that intelligent.

So it isn't really a case of one being smarter than the other IMO. More a case of one just having more knowledge and skill in some areas than the other one does. Hence why I said they balance each other out well as a team.

Originally posted by Mindset
Sam was getting his law degree. I don't know if they ever said what his undergrad was, but unless it was a STEM degree, he just did the intro level science/math classes and those are easy as shit.

Not only was he in law school, Sam apparently scored ridiculously high on his LSAT.

On a different note, I agree the brothers both excel at different things. IMO, they should go in the direction of training the next generation of hunters. Dean is great with children and has a lot of experience in watching over youngsters. It's a character trait (like Sam is better with animals.) Sam is perfect for rebuilding the MoL organization. With all their accumulated knowledge/skills, the Winchesters should be able to create something pretty epic.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
Not only was he in law school, Sam apparently scored ridiculously high on his LSAT.

On a different note, I agree the brothers both excel at different things. IMO, they should go in the direction of training the next generation of hunters. Dean is great with children and has a lot of experience in watching over youngsters. It's a character trait (like Sam is better with animals.) Sam is perfect for rebuilding the MoL organization. With all their accumulated knowledge/skills, the Winchesters should be able to create something pretty epic. Pretty sure the lsat doesn't have math or science.

Originally posted by 80sBaby
On a different note, I agree the brothers both excel at different things. IMO, they should go in the direction of training the next generation of hunters. Dean is great with children and has a lot of experience in watching over youngsters. It's a character trait (like Sam is better with animals.) Sam is perfect for rebuilding the MoL organization. With all their accumulated knowledge/skills, the Winchesters should be able to create something pretty epic.

I can see the young adult spin-off series already...

Supernatural Presents: Sam & Dean's Hunter Academy

I gave up after season eight. Just lost interest entirely.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I gave up after season eight. Just lost interest entirely.

That's fair really. After season 5 the show was all over the place, and had a few poor seasons between then and the current one, but season 11 has been better so far.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I gave up after season eight. Just lost interest entirely. You really aren't missing much, I'm enjoying this season though.

Season 8 was awful because of Amelia and all the flashbacks of her Sam would have at the most inappropriate times. Then the whole thing with Dean and Castiel in purgatory but then Dean doesn't actually remember what happened because...reasons.

I am curious to see how the next episode plays out. Looks pretty insane from the promo, and is directed by Richard Speight, Jr., who actually plays Gabriel in the show.

7Jpe3c-TGkU

The premise certainly sounds like some stuff Gabriel would do.

Though am I the only one who is curious to see an actual trickster? We know they aren't actually as powerful as Gabriel, but we also know they do exist.

They do?

Pretty sure Gabriel was the original Loki.

Originally posted by Mindset
They do?

Pretty sure Gabriel was the original Loki.

Yeah, you're right in terms of Gabriel being Loki. All the Pagan Gods still refer to him as such, thinking he is one of them, during the episode Lucifer decides to clean house a bit. So either he created the alias of Loki while hiding, or he killed the real Loki and took his title. But if the latter is the case, he has been Loki for so long that it doesn't make any real difference IMO in anyways.

But based on Castiel's comments I think it was, there are also supernatural beings called "tricksters" who posses some low level reality warping powers. They initially thought Gabriel was one of them, but then realised he is far too powerful to actually be one.

Gabriel was the original Loki, but it was never said Loki was the original or only trickster. I'm not even sure if he was the original Loki. He could of just as easily of killed him and taken his place.

Gabriel didn't seem like the kind of guy to just kill Loki and take his place. Also, the other gods would know if Gabriel killed Loki and took his place, his vessel wouldn't look the same.

There isn't actually a race of tricksters, it would just be other mythological beings or gods that are tricksters like Loki/Gabriel. Also, pretty sure Bobby thought he was a trickster, Castiel wasn't introduced until like 2 seasons later. Iirc, Gabriel made up the info about tricksters and how to kill them.

You are right on the Bobby thing. It was actually Bobby with them during both the original encounters with Gabriel. He is the one who tells them about tricksters originally, and then is with Sam, hunting Gabriel, during the Dean death-loop episode.

I mixed him up with Castiel, because he is the one in the episode when they discover Gabriel's true nature. And he is the one who basically confirms tricksters are real. It's during that TV show episode, where Gabriel traps them into all the different programs. Castiel still remarks something along the lines of "Something is not right. This thing is much more powerful than it should be." To which Dean responds "What thing? The trickster?", and Castiel replies "If it even is a trickster."

So based on what Castiel said, there are actual tricksters, but they aren't anywhere close to as powerful as Gabriel is.

He could have been talking about one of the many trickster deities.

There's not an actual race of tricksters.

Tricksters are described as "demigods" in anyways, and supposedly all share similar powers, so by their very definition they are a group of divine beings. I personally see "tricksters" as being a kind of a subcategory to classify a certain group of gods/demigods, from various pantheons, who share similar powers, characteristics and weaknesses. So I think it is a bit more complicated than just a simple yes or no answer, but that is just my personal take on the matter.

Also, don't think anyone here other than you used the word "race". We are simply saying that there are other beings out there who hold the title "trickster" as well, based on the comments and info in the show.

hahaha! 'Drop Dead Fred' reference in this last episode.

we fckin loved that movie when we were kids.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Tricksters are described as "demigods" in anyways, and supposedly all share similar powers, so by their very definition they are a group of divine beings. I personally see "tricksters" as being a kind of a subcategory to classify a certain group of gods/demigods, from various pantheons, who share similar powers, characteristics and weaknesses... We are simply saying that there are other beings out there who hold the title "trickster" as well, based on the comments and info in the show.

There are many tricksters from all over the world according to folklore and mythology. The most famous in modern society is probably Loki from Norse mythology, but in West Africa Anansi is just as famous, while Coyote is probably best known in the US as he is part of native American culture.

There was never anything that said Gabriel made up the Tricksters. I suppose he could of..or he could of just co-opted their identity. He says he was in "witness protection" and all that, but he never says he made up the entire thing about Tricksters.

Castiel flat out says he is too powerful for a trickster, NOT that tricksters don't exist. So Castiel saying it the way he said it makes utterly zero sense if Tricksters don't exist outside of Gabriel.

It's also silly to say the other gods would know if Gabriel killed the real Loki and took his place. His entire thing is tricking people. They also didn't even know he was an angel until very recently, and he STILL ended up tricking them again after they knew what he was. You are talking about vessels that look the same but gods don't use vessels, they aren't possessing bodies like angels and demons. Gabriel can look however he chooses to look.

This also assumes he took on the guise of Loki only after the gods had met the possibly original. But why? Kali said there were billions, it's not like they all know each other. This could of been a group of gods he befriended after going into witness protection.

Or hell if you want to take another potential scenario: Gabriel can make people out of thin air and overall warp reality. It's possible he took on the guise of the Trickster and then actually created a few actual tricksters himself. Less powerful then he is and with specific weaknesses..all to sell the fact tricksters were a thing.

Anyways I liked this latest episode. The character of "Sully" actually grew on me, I'm not sure why. But I was glad he wasn't shanked by the girl.

Though just one thing, the girl said she found a witch who gave her the spell to see the Xana, the witch also told her they were good beings, but then also gives her a special knife in which to kill them?

The episode also hammers in just how terrible of a father John Winchester truly was. Come on now, first you leave your 9 yr. old kid alone..then you invite him to come hunt monsters with you. Being upset over his wife's death doesn't excuse crazy ass behavior like that. Why does everyone act like he was a good man?!

It just reminds me of that episode with the Striga where it was revealed it attacked Sam as a kid. In a flashback you see John getting upset at Dean for not protecting Sam. WTF you left your damn kids alone to go fight monsters, blame yourself dickbag. The guy couldn't even get them Christmas presents.

The Winchesters are essentially a military family. John was off to war (hunting), and when Dean was of age, he enlisted as well. Eventually Sam's time came, but he grew up with his Dad off fighting a war. Doesn't make John a bad father, but he was an absent father. Saving people from monsters came first.

But they weren't really given a choice. That goes beyond just being absent. Sam was 9 when we see him being called to help, that is "of age" ? You can't join the military at age 9.

This is like if your dad was fighting in World War 2 against the nazi's and you were 9 and he decided to enlist you and bring you along.

Have the writers like forgotten Michael/Adam was locked in the cage with Lucifer? Like really where is Adam?

I still wanna know what happened to Crowley's mom.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
There are many tricksters from all over the world according to folklore and mythology. The most famous in modern society is probably Loki from Norse mythology, but in West Africa Anansi is just as famous, while Coyote is probably best known in the US as he is part of native American culture.

Yeah, Anansi is specifically mentioned in the Supernatural lore as well. But that's the point. We know of at least one other named trickster that exists. And the fact that Castiel also uses "trickster" specifically shows that the term is considered to be some form of classification.

Originally posted by Kento
Have the writers like forgotten Michael/Adam was locked in the cage with Lucifer? Like really where is Adam?

Yeah, and Lucifer was using Sam as his vessel to boot IIRC. So not sure how Lucifer, in his old vessel, ended up in the cage, seemingly alone.

Originally posted by Kento
Have the writers like forgotten Michael/Adam was locked in the cage with Lucifer? Like really where is Adam?

For me I just get the feeling Michael and Lucifer were put in different cages...somehow.

Though it was kind of awesome seeing Amara smite people. She is kind of right, God doesn't give a shit.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, and Lucifer was using Sam as his vessel to boot IIRC. So not sure how Lucifer, in his old vessel, ended up in the cage, seemingly alone. I think the form he has is just a, way to see him. Cause he said if he got out he would need a vessel or he'd be all smoke up top. Originally posted by Surtur
For me I just get the feeling Michael and Lucifer were put in different cages...somehow.

Though it was kind of awesome seeing Amara smite people. She is kind of right, God doesn't give a shit. They kind of jumped in together. There wasn't suppose to be a cage in the final battle to destroy the planet between Michael and Lucifer. The Winchesters got that up and going.

Chuck didn't even care when the Apocalypse was happening. Except in saving Dean and Sam at times. And putting Castiel back together. If Amara wants his attention she just needs to start smiting Cas, and Sam.

I actually have a bit more respect for Sam after basically giving Lucifer the finger. Though Lucifer was 100% right about what he said with regards to Sam and Dean. Also, Castiel is an idiot.

And I find the whole "Michael went crazy due to prison" thing a bit dumb. God's first Archangel, most likely been alive for billions of years, led God's forces in his absence etc... given his age, his time in the Cage should have been a proverbial eye blink, and certainly not long enough to totally drive him off the deep end.

Yeah but remember Michael never had to experience that. He'd been pretty much the most powerful being in creation(save for God and a few others) for his entire life and then suddenly he finds himself trapped in a cage.

Also consider this: it's not just Michael, but Adam as well. A normal human kid who wasn't meant to ever be imprisoned forever, etc. It's possible the emotions of the host body took a toll on poor Mikey.

Or consider this: who told us Michael was crazy? Lucifer. Is the guy trustworthy? Of course he'd try to paint Michael as unusable. Remember we never actually see Michael anywhere. Another reason for Lucifer to want Michael kept away: Michael already has a host body. Lucifer, even though he appears as Nick, didn't actually go into the pit with Nick's body, he had Sam's and then lost it. So they wouldn't really even need to worry about a host body since Michael was already in Adam.

If you want to talk about things that bother me then it is the assumption that Lucifer wants to destroy the world and cause the Apocalypse. Remember the chat Lucifer and Michael have at the end of the 5th season? Lucifer didn't want to fight, he didn't want to nuke the entire world. It was MICHAEL who was more insistent upon that. So actually yeah..I could believe Lucifer wouldn't try to start the Apocalypse. Of course it doesn't mean he wouldn't turn the world into his own personal playground, but it was pretty much a plot point that Lucifer didn't want to go along with the whole plan of the apocalypse. Since think about it..if Lucifer really truly wanted to destroy everything he could of just used Death to do that.

Also I am beginning to think Castiel is now the angelic version of the Winchesters. Where Sam and Dean tend to have all their friends die sooner or later..with Castiel it seems now guaranteed that any angel he meets is going to be horribly killed.

I am not sure Adam would cause much of a hindrance. Michael is the kind of dick to probably vacate any remaining shred of Adam from the premises before taking over his body, or at least lock him so far deep down inside that Adam's screams can barely be heard. As you also pointed out with the final showdown, Michael is arguably the bigger jerk of the Two Big angelic brothers actually.

I rather think it is Lucifer exaggerating, as you said. I still find it hard to believe that a being that is probably almost as old as the universe itself would break in such a relatively short amount of time, when a normal human like Dean withstood active torture for 30 years before breaking, and John went even longer without actually breaking IIRC. Most likely Lucifer doesn't want Michael to be pulled into things. He has a host now, but it isn't his true host, so I'm afraid meatsuit-Jimmy is going to start falling apart at some point. Adam, while not Dean, is still from the right family line at least, and a suitable host for Michael. Which is also probably partly why he made sure no one else could open or close the cage again before killing Rowena (the other part obviously being so that no one could shut him in again). Because if Michael did get out you would be damn sure he WOULD try to kick off the Apocalypse again, especially if he is in fact slightly off the rails now.

But I assume Rowena is unaware of the fact that there is another way to open and close the cage again, considering the brothers have done exactly that in the past. Though not sure how they would manage to obtain Death's ring this time.

Wasn't Michael also taking part in the Sam punching-bag while Sam was still in the cage. Maybe getting Adam caught in the mix while having to be stuck in a cage for the first time may have been more damaging to his psyche.

Pretty sure Lucifer doesn't actually want to destroy the Earth as he said that it was the last great creation of God in the alternate timeline where he wins. Not sure how Jimmy is going to hold up having both Cas and Lucifer bunking inside. Then again it did hold the purgatory souls for a bit so there's that.

Also with Rowena dead how's the Book going to make itself useful.

This show needed to end once Lucifer died, that was the logical closure point.

Except at no point has he ever been dead. But Supernatural was originally supposed to end at season 5, with Lucifer and Michael getting locked up. But due to popularity and fan demand it kept going. And it will probably still be going for another few seasons yet. After seasons 6-10 were very hit-and-miss, season 11 has been pretty good again.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Wasn't Michael also taking part in the Sam punching-bag while Sam was still in the cage. Maybe getting Adam caught in the mix while having to be stuck in a cage for the first time may have been more damaging to his psyche.

We don't know if Michael took part on torturing Sam. He definitely seems like the type that would, but it seems like Lucifer and Michael are kept in separate cages.



Yes he doesn't want to destroy the earth itself. Humanity on the other hand..he kinda does. Or at the very least he wants to kill most of them and infect those who remain with the croatoan virus.



Remember Jimmy is gone. He is no longer inside Castiel, it's just Cas now. Or at least Cas and Lucifer now.

Also remember it wasn't the souls of people that were causing Castiel problems, it was the fact he unknowingly also took in the souls of the Leviathans.

The thing that bugs me this time about Cas is that we know Lucifer didn't fight the Darkness by himself. He had the help of God and the other arch angels. Yet this fact isn't really pointed out until the last minute. It's like Castiel feels Lucifer is so utterly powerful he can compensate for not having arch angels or friggin God himself on their side. Except we know that Lucifer isn't the most powerful angel..since if he was Michael wouldn't of been able to beat him down back in the day.

It is also implied that Lucifer turned evil because of the mark or whatever. Yet everyone seems to pretend like he was just born a prick.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller But I assume Rowena is unaware of the fact that there is another way to open and close the cage again, considering the brothers have done exactly that in the past. Though not sure how they would manage to obtain Death's ring this time.

Well yeah, but Lucifer already knows about the rings, so he was taking care of the one wild card by killing her. The only other way we've seen someone get in is death himself.

I am curious about if the Leprechaun Sam encountered in season 6 was telling the truth about being able to get into the cage and free Sam's soul. I've been waiting for a while now for someone/something from the fairy realm to show up as a recurring villain. Especially when the faeries obviously have a devil figure of their own that is definitely not Lucifer.

The point about the Jimmy thing is that Jimmy's body is not meant to host someone like Lucifer. We saw what happens when an Archangel takes a body it's not meant to. The vessel starts to deteriorate and weaken. And maybe Lucifer believes that he can defeat the Darkness solo because she probably isn't quite at full power yet. But yeah, would think that Michael > Lucifer, considering Michael kicked Lucifer's ass out of Heaven, despite Lucifer presumably still having the Mark on top of his own angelic powers.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except at no point has he ever been dead. But Supernatural was originally supposed to end at season 5, with Lucifer and Michael getting locked up. But due to popularity and fan demand it kept going. And it will probably still be going for another few seasons yet. After seasons 6-10 were very hit-and-miss, season 11 has been pretty good again. They are never ever going to top that season again.

Season 5, I mean.

If it had ended there, that might have been one of the best endings to any show ever.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They are never ever going to top that season again.

Season 5, I mean.

If it had ended there, that might have been one of the best endings to any show ever.

Have to agree with you there actually. The first 4 seasons specifically built up to season 5 to be the climax. And Chuck still did his farewell message about the show and everything at the end of the last episode.

And that was the issue with seasons 6-10 IMO. They kept the show going after the "peak", so to speak, but then had to try and think up villains and plots that would still seem relevant after literally stopping Lucifer and the Apocalypse. And sadly, the majority of those villains (like the Leviathans and Metatron, for example) ended up being really stupid and lame. But they've brought it back full circle to the Archangels etc. with season 11, so I am optimistic.

I still don't think they'll ever top season 5, but I do think they're doing good currently.

I flat out lol'd when that other angel genuinely seemed to think that he had a chance against Lucifer, in the latest episode.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The point about the Jimmy thing is that Jimmy's body is not meant to host someone like Lucifer. We saw what happens when an Archangel takes a body it's not meant to. The vessel starts to deteriorate and weaken. And maybe Lucifer believes that he can defeat the Darkness solo because she probably isn't quite at full power yet. But yeah, would think that Michael > Lucifer, considering Michael kicked Lucifer's ass out of Heaven, despite Lucifer presumably still having the Mark on top of his own angelic powers.

Yeah but remember though, Lucifer was in Nick for pretty much the entire 5th season and even when he left his body it's not like the body was in horrible shape. It certainly wasn't in good shape, but it didn't seem to be near death.

On the other hand Castiel now isn't really a normal angel though. He's not an angel possessing a human anymore. He's been utterly destroyed and reformed on at least two occasions. Actually potentially three times, he was destroyed by Raphael, he was destroyed by Lucifer, and then it seems like his body was destroyed once the leviathans escaped. Castiel tends to get exploded a lot. Rather his soul is now the main occupant of his body. So it is possible the body might not break down. Or since we know Castiel's body doesn't begin to break down it could be that this vessel will hold up because there is still technically a soul inside of it that belongs there.

Though I do like how Cas asks "Can you really beat the darkness?". Of course Lucifer is going to say yes..he's friggin Lucifer.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I flat out lol'd when that other angel genuinely seemed to think that he had a chance against Lucifer, in the latest episode.

I like how Lucifer was so unconcerned about the threat the guy posed that he actually turns his back on him.

When the angel was following Casifer I was thinking to myself 'Why are you following Lucifer. Don't tell me they are going to somehow forget they can see the other beings true self in the bodies.' But nope the angel was just an idiot and tried to kill Lucifer.

So can Lucifer still fly as I'm not sure if he and Michael were effected by the "fall".

Also the Winchesters met a hunter that didn't get horribly murdered in the same episode so there's that.

You would think he could.... But it hasn't shown if he's driving Cas' car or flying as of yet... But I can't picture Lucy driving a car.

Too be fair, the cop chicks are technically hunters now and have survived.

He could drive a car for comedic purposes. Though now that Lucy's back, when's the show going to make good on Gabriel making another appearance.

Those cop chicks are still the exception and not the rule. They weren't introduced as hunters either.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah but remember though, Lucifer was in Nick for pretty much the entire 5th season and even when he left his body it's not like the body was in horrible shape. It certainly wasn't in good shape, but it didn't seem to be near death.

On the other hand Castiel now isn't really a normal angel though. He's not an angel possessing a human anymore. He's been utterly destroyed and reformed on at least two occasions. Actually potentially three times, he was destroyed by Raphael, he was destroyed by Lucifer, and then it seems like his body was destroyed once the leviathans escaped. Castiel tends to get exploded a lot. Rather his soul is now the main occupant of his body. So it is possible the body might not break down. Or since we know Castiel's body doesn't begin to break down it could be that this vessel will hold up because there is still technically a soul inside of it that belongs there.

Though I do like how Cas asks "Can you really beat the darkness?". Of course Lucifer is going to say yes..he's friggin Lucifer.

I suppose that is possible. I was wondering about that especially considering the Darkness also commented on how she was trying to understand why God took such a personal interest in Castiel. Or they might just gloss over the deterioration thing completely without explanation. Wouldn't be the first time.

Originally posted by Surtur
I like how Lucifer was so unconcerned about the threat the guy posed that he actually turns his back on him.

Initially I thought he was just going to try to talk to him and figure out why he is there, but when he pulled the blade all I could think was "Oh you dumb bastard."

I don't think either Michael or Lucifer should have been affected by the fall really. The angels seemed to all have gotten injured (some even dying) during the fall itself. But Lucifer and Michael never fell, being locked in Hell at the time.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
He could drive a car for comedic purposes. Though now that Lucy's back, when's the show going to make good on Gabriel making another appearance.

Those cop chicks are still the exception and not the rule. They weren't introduced as hunters either. They should leave Gabriel dead.

This is true. But they've survived longer than I thought they would.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So can Lucifer still fly as I'm not sure if he and Michael were effected by the "fall".

Was it said angels can't fly? I thought they were locked out of heaven, but what does that have to do with flying?



It's happened before. It just means she should pray that she never runs into Sam and Dean again. Being around Sam and Dean the first time is like playing russian roulette with a pistol with 6 chambers and 1 bullet. Every time after that a character encounters them the number goes up: 6 chambers with 2 bullets. 6 chambers with 3. Until sooner or later their death is inevitable.

I think Bobby had some kind of mystical item that protected him for so long.

It's also kind of funny, considering your remark about Castiel being the angel version of the Winchesters, that another one of the heavenly host got splattered because he let Lucifer take the driving seat. That's 2 in 2 episodes for Cas now.

Originally posted by Surtur
Was it said angels can't fly? I thought they were locked out of heaven, but what does that have to do with flying?



It's happened before. It just means she should pray that she never runs into Sam and Dean again. Being around Sam and Dean the first time is like playing russian roulette with a pistol with 6 chambers and 1 bullet. Every time after that a character encounters them the number goes up: 6 chambers with 2 bullets. 6 chambers with 3. Until sooner or later their death is inevitable.

I think Bobby had some kind of mystical item that protected him for so long.
Angels that fell has their wings heavily damaged and were unable to fly/teleport in S9. While unlikely, I was curious as to whether or not Lucifer and Michael were affected by the fall.

Well if Officer Jody can make it past this season then she will be tied with Bobby for longest lived non-Winchester hunter. Not sure about Donna though.

I guess there is a chance they might not of been affected by it, but heaven is open now.

Wow Sheriff Jody and the 2 girls managed to live through another Winchester visit.

Jody has officially upgraded her plot armor to Bobbi tier with this episode.

Through the whole episode I was thinking 'If Claire gets Jody killed I am going to hate her even more.' but none died.. I was shocked

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Jody has officially upgraded her plot armor to Bobbi tier with this episode.

The plot armour lower body coverage isn't full proof though.

The second I saw it was one of Jody's kids and she had a boyfriend I knew the guy would either be killed or turn out to be a monster or both and...yup.

Though nobody be happy for the girls, it's quite obvious Clare is going to get herself murdered or put in jail sooner or later. She just plain doesn't have what it takes to hunt.

Also Jody might of been lucky enough to pick up a plot shield. Someone has to stay behind once the show is over to tell the Winchesters story, probably after the Winchesters themselves have been horribly killed. At first I thought Bobby might be the one, but obviously that torch has been passed. Just kidding she'll probably be horribly killed sooner or later. If Charlie wasn't safe nobody is.

Yeah, at the time, Charlie was the one person (after Bobby initially) I thought who might actually have a shot at not dying horribly at some point. But nope, the rule of Winchester hit its mark on that one.

I agree about Claire though. She is almost too jumpy and paranoid to be a hunter. She's either going to get herself killed, or get an innocent person killed, in which case she will probably either go to prison or on a downward spiral.

I'm waiting for her to find Casifer and her to take a dark turn

To be honest, I'd rather the character of Clare just get set off to the side and never mentioned again. Nothing against her, but there are far too many other characters who have appeared in the past that I would like to see again.

First off, what the hell happened to Jesse? He was this massively powerful kid. He is off doing..whatever. Also curious to see that witch that could age/de-age people again. He was an interesting character. Speaking of witches just a more in depth look at the witch scene, like we got in the episode where you have the female who turns into a dog that is a familiar to a wizard cop. Okay that was a weird sentence to type.

Also I want more Ghostfacers.