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Who wins?

Finally a fight Johnny can win

Torch

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Finally a fight Johnny can win

Yeah, trouble with Torch is he's hard to put in a Vs forum match.... he can either insta-barbeque whoever he's fighting or he has no chance, not a lot of middle ground.

True ..he's the epitome of a glass cannon

In a featureless environment, he can beat CC fairly easy.

*shrugs* call me crazy but I wouldn't think it would be that easy. He's easily beaten tarpit and heatwave. Torch is not going to go Nova off the bat, while cold has no problems going for the kill shot

Originally posted by -K-M-
*shrugs* call me crazy but I wouldn't think it would be that easy. He's easily beaten tarpit and heatwave. Torch is not going to go Nova off the bat, while cold has no problems going for the kill shot

True mungi...but i think john can tank what cold can dish

At absolute zero he shouldn't be able to as it literally stops the molecules (but comics). He's been "snuffed" out by far less too

Depends on who gets in the first strike.

Originally posted by -K-M-
At absolute zero he shouldn't be able to as it literally stops the molecules (but comics). He's been "snuffed" out by far less too

His equip can reach absolute zero?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
His equip can reach absolute zero?

Yep

http://i.imgur.com/9on3ILN.png
--------
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/COLDBLOOOOODED.png

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yep

http://i.imgur.com/9on3ILN.png

Does Flash have hands growing out of his shoulders these days?



And the way his left hand is gripping Freeze's pipe ( ) seems anatomically very difficult/impossible/painful

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yep

http://i.imgur.com/9on3ILN.png
--------
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/COLDBLOOOOODED.png

Well that makes it tricky .hows johnnys demeanor post negative zone

thought current johnny is powerless now? oh and wasnt he turned into the BW sun?

Dunno last time i read f4 johnny had just lost the ccr

Classic Cold wtf pwns Johnny.

Johnny

Can CC shoot blasts that are absolute Zero or does he just create fields around himself? Don't think the latter would give him the win against HT.

Originally posted by carver9
Can CC shoot blasts that are absolute Zero or does he just create fields around himself? Don't think the latter would give him the win against HT.

Y not?

Because Torch can attack from a distance.

Lol the scan literally says how CC created a cold field by firing his weapon on a widebeam setting....

So yes, he shoots blasts that are absolute zero. If needed, he can shoot wide beam blasts that create entire fields around him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol the scan literally says how CC created a cold field by firing his weapon on a widebeam setting....

So yes, he shoots blasts that are absolute zero. If needed, he can shoot wide beam blasts that create entire fields around him.

Do you have scans of him doing this?

KM has posted it - he fired a wide beam blast.

From his gun.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
KM has posted it - he fired a wide beam blast.

From his gun.

That stayed within a certain length. What I'm asking is, if Human Torch is a couple of 100's of ft in the air, could CC hit him with his below 0 blast. It staying in a vicinity isn't wasn't I'm asking.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yep

http://i.imgur.com/9on3ILN.png Read the scan carefully. Cold's tech can generate temperatures below Absolute Zero.

Here is Cold blocking an attack from Weather Wizard. I'm assuming he could do the same to HT.

http://i61.tinypic.com/30t13x4.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
That stayed within a certain length. What I'm asking is, if Human Torch is a couple of 100's of ft in the air, could CC hit him with his below 0 blast. It staying in a vicinity isn't wasn't I'm asking.

Ok, so your question is one of range?

Cold Grenades, that can freeze an entire building (well, the entire prison building), stopping even Black Lantern Zoom:

http://i.imgur.com/TXir3nR.png

Or he can just expand his field over an entire buidling:

http://i.imgur.com/FcVR0ON.png

But whilst he's figuring all this out (remember, he fights Flashes - being outreacted is rare for him), his field will still protect him:

http://i.imgur.com/RHbFprR.png

Nothing short of a Flash has enough momentum to break through.

And yes, he can project it:

http://i.imgur.com/xW1UfIg.png

Yeah, he can probably solo Val Armorr, Iron Fist, and Gorgon all at the same time.

Hell, he could probably flash freeze Simon, or maybe even Hulk.

One of the most powerful mooks, and he dresses like a reject from.GI Joe and calls himself "Captain Cold".

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, so your question is one of range?

Cold Grenades, that can freeze an entire building (well, the entire prison building), stopping even Black Lantern Zoom:

http://i.imgur.com/TXir3nR.png

Or he can just expand his field over an entire buidling:

http://i.imgur.com/FcVR0ON.png

But whilst he's figuring all this out (remember, he fights Flashes - being outreacted is rare for him), his field will still protect him:

http://i.imgur.com/RHbFprR.png

Nothing short of a Flash has enough momentum to break through.

And yes, he can project it:

http://i.imgur.com/xW1UfIg.png

Great post

I knew Mungi wouldn't resist posting that below absolute zero scan for the 31197th time...

I'm pretty sure Mungi sniped that particular scan from me. It's a high-quality scan, and that filthy Canadian doesn't tend to dabble in anything of high-quality... Ergo his creepy love for Alpha Flight.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Great post

When carver bows out of the thread, I know my work is done.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm pretty sure Mungi sniped that particular scan from me. It's a high-quality scan, and that filthy Canadian doesn't tend to dabble in anything of high-quality... Ergo his creepy love for Alpha Flight.

Here's a pretty decent feat:

http://i.imgur.com/B1rTakG.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When carver bows out of the thread, I know my work is done.

Pretty much. At least he did so with dignity this time lol

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm pretty sure Mungi sniped that particular scan from me. It's a high-quality scan, and that filthy Canadian doesn't tend to dabble in anything of high-quality... Ergo his creepy love for Alpha Flight.

I aint even mad, as it is your scan. The one I originally posted distorted the page. For me liking low quality things? I find that offensive and you sicken me...sicken me!!!

*continues to rummage through the dumpster* Oh no way a limited edition Alpha Flight #01 signed by my mom.

I actually think captain cold could win but with Johnny speed in flight and at a certain temperature it's highly unlikely. He is a FLASH villain tho so he's hit faster.

Torch can be taken out by cold blasts. Absolute zero fists for the win

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/MachineMan616/MachineMan15-15.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Read the scan carefully. Cold's tech can generate temperatures below Absolute Zero. Awesome - "my technology can generate temperatures lower than the lowest possible temperature!" He should call his weapon the paradox gun.

DC is full of things like that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, so your question is one of range?

Cold Grenades, that can freeze an entire building (well, the entire prison building), stopping even Black Lantern Zoom:

http://i.imgur.com/TXir3nR.png

Or he can just expand his field over an entire buidling:

http://i.imgur.com/FcVR0ON.png

But whilst he's figuring all this out (remember, he fights Flashes - being outreacted is rare for him), his field will still protect him:

http://i.imgur.com/RHbFprR.png

Nothing short of a Flash has enough momentum to break through.

And yes, he can project it:

http://i.imgur.com/xW1UfIg.png

Don't think you know the starting distance between these two. I asked you to show he can produce absolute 0 attacks at range. None of your scans show this. Never said he could shoot building length attacks (lol) but nothing has been displayed with him shooting his most deadly attack at the distance these two are starting off at.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't think you know the starting distance between these two. I asked you to show he can produce absolute 0 attacks at range. None of your scans show this. Never said he could shoot building length attacks (lol) but nothing has been displayed with him shooting his most deadly attack at the distance these two are starting off at.

With the range they have, and the reaction speed of Cold, what can Torch do

Blast him from above.

Originally posted by carver9
Blast him from above.

Originally posted by Zack M
Here is Cold blocking an attack from Weather Wizard. I'm assuming he could do the same to HT.

http://i61.tinypic.com/30t13x4.jpg

A lightening bolt generates heat upwards of 30,000 K or 29,727 Celsius (°C)

The cold field stops Flashes.

Johnny doesn't exactly go Nova at opponents he has no clue about, let alone those he DOES know.

And even then, its hardly the best attack.

He can shoot the field at range. I showed him shooting it. You want to argue RL physics and say the further it goes the less effective it is?

Then the further Storm is, the less effective his heat.

Originally posted by -K-M-
A lightening bolt generates heat upwards of 30,000 K or 29,727 Celsius (°C)

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11/118356/2529219-2529218-ht_bullets.jpg

Also, this would kill CC.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/149056/4223891-johnny+supernova.jpg

It would, but HT doesn't kill people.

Which is what I said on page one. He is not going Nova

Lol. Carver loves debating out of character.

Johnny at a certain temp is deadly to cold just by being within range. Colds gun could do him in but so could storms flame from a distance and Johnny is obviously faster with the power of flight.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Johnny at a certain temp is deadly to cold just by being within range. Colds gun could do him in but so could storms flame from a distance and Johnny is obviously faster with the power of flight.

Yes, because Cold has no idea how to fight speedsters.....

And agreed on the certain temp thing - but Storm does not go into battle saturating the entire battlefield with his nova flame. Anything he hurls at Cold, well, Cold has the reflexes to be shot at FROM THE BACK, dodge, and then put up ice walls.

Not to mention anything that gets near him gets taken out by his cold field.

Will he? Depends on his temp I think. Either could one shot the other. Either could hit one another from range. Either could widen their beams of or immerse themselves in their own respective temp based powers for protection or offense. But only one is faster. Only one has flight.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Will he? Depends on his temp I think. Either could one shot the other. Either could hit one another from range. Either could widen their beams of or immerse themselves in their own respective temp based powers for protection or offense. But only one is faster. Only one has flight.

Is Johnny faster? Again, not sure how flight helps?

@Galan and Stilt:
http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-gas-goes-below-absolute-zero-1.12146

In flight? Yes. That's also your answer to the other question. Creating range better for evasion as well.

Originally posted by namorsubby
In flight? Yes. That's also your answer to the other question. Creating range better for evasion as well.

AoE attacks.

I'm sorry I don't get your reference I assume you're alluding to recent showings in a comic book story arc I haven't read everything consistently in a while. Please illuminate me.

Originally posted by namorsubby
I'm sorry I don't get your reference I assume you're alluding to recent showings in a comic book story arc I haven't read everything consistently in a while. Please illuminate me.

Oh, sorry.

http://i.imgur.com/TXir3nR.png

Cold Grenade

Edit: That's Black Lantern Zoom. And he was trapped.

He could definitely hit johnny based on his flash exploits. But who is more likely to hit whom first?

How cold is that grenade?

By the way, I thought we go by current versions? This is DCNU CC.

True. DCnU Cold stomps.

Edit: we only uses DCNU versions IF they have enough showings and feats.

Originally posted by carver9
How cold is that grenade?

It flash froze Zoom, and the entire Iron Heights penitentiary in a milisecond.

Considering he routinely boasts about his absolute zero gun, I would wager it's absolute zero. Unless you want to argue his grenade, which is far more impressive than his gun, uses inferior tech?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It flash froze Zoom, and the entire Iron Heights penitentiary in a milisecond.

Considering he routinely boasts about his absolute zero gun, I would wager it's absolute zero. Unless you want to argue his grenade, which is far more impressive than his gun, uses inferior tech?

Doesn't mean that the grenade was absolute zero and it probably wouldn't work on human torch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True. DCnU Cold stomps.

Edit: we only uses DCNU versions IF they have enough showings and feats.

We still go by the latest though unless specified by the OP.

Originally posted by carver9
We still go by the latest though unless specified by the OP.

NOPE.

From the rules thread:


Originally posted by carver9
Doesn't mean that the grenade was absolute zero and it probably wouldn't work on human torch.

Scans he used inferior tech?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
NOPE.

From the rules thread:




Scans he used inferior tech?

Why would I need to provide scans of ALL of his equipment being Absolute 0? Also, DCNU CC have a lot of appearances.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
DC is full of things like that. DC is full of awesomeness that doesn't need to make sense you slanderous fiend.

Originally posted by carver9
Why would I need to provide scans of ALL of his equipment being Absolute 0? Also, DCNU CC have a lot of appearances.

You are the one casting doubt.

True, DCnU Cold is pretty much Iceman....he's created ice sculptures in the blink of an eye, which extend hundreds of feet into the air.

How fast is DCnU Cold?

Pre-Deathstorm, he was able to do this. Note how Barry isn't slowed down at all - he's able to vibrate his hand through a guy's chest. Therefore, Cold's null field isn't affecting him. Yet, before his very eyes, the guy is entombed in ice. That's pretty fast, and Cold didn't even need to produce ice from his hands to do so:

http://www.abload.de/img/2hlb7i.jpg

Flying hundreds of feet in the air?

http://upic.me/i/zn/szh24.jpg

Another speed feat here. Cold is able to flash freeze an entire skyscraper, in the blink of an eye. note how thick the ice is, too:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LoQylk0iAtc/VRYS-wCGk_I/AAAAAAAJOGA/n2aWEpDOozM/s1600/p8_16+copy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BtPWM.jpg

And if anyone wants to argue he was depowered post Deathstorm, need I remind them that Johnny was depowered too. And had no powers.

Bravo

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Bravo

Ty.

Captain Cold wins this easily, poor Johnny he gets no respect.

Human Torch.

I actually voted for torch myself but superior arguments swayed me

Yeah, cold wins on average.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I actually voted for torch myself but superior arguments swayed me

What else can you be swayed to do?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What else can you be swayed to do?

Just about anything...if the arguments are sound

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Just about anything...if the arguments are sound

http://media.giphy.com/media/tjwzClJM6fyEw/giphy.gif

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yep

http://i.imgur.com/9on3ILN.png


Below absolute zero? /facepalm

If we have a system at a given non-zero temperature, the energies of its individual particles are not all equal: some have higher energy, some lower. Particle collisions redistribute the energy until a certain thermal equilibrium distribution of energies has been reached: this is called the Boltzmann distribution (of particle energies).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Translational_motion.gif

According to the Boltzmann distribution, the number of particles possessing energy E is

https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/3/9/a39f5d633f3d9da1523f7bff6b0a337c.png

This distribution is characterized by a parameter T, which in statistical thermodynamics is the DEFINITION of absolute temperature (k is a physical constant, Boltzmann constant). For example, the distribution tells us that if the amount of particles having the energy E1 = kT is F(E1) = 100, then the amount of particles having twice that energy (i.e. E2 = 2E1 = 2kT) is only F(E2) = 37.

(Proof: according to the eq above, F(E2)/F(E1) = e^(-E2/kT) / e^(-E1/kT) = e^(-2)/e^(-1) = e^(-1) = 0.368.)

This makes only sense when the temperature T is positive: then the number of particles at higher energies is smaller than the number of particles at lower energies. But if the absolute temperature of the system was negative we would end up in a paradox: the number of particles with a given energy would be an exponentially increasing function of energy! Thus, if a (non-empty) system had negative absolute temperature, it would have an infinite amount of infinitely energetic particles. Such a system would be, not extremely cold, but extremely hot. It would release infinite amounts of heat to its surroundings. In fact, creating a negative absolute temperature anywhere within the universe would collapse the entire universe into a giant black hole ("big crunch".

I highly doubt captain Cold's weapon is a universe-buster.

Originally posted by Magnon
Below absolute zero? /facepalm

If we have a system at a given non-zero temperature, the energies of its individual particles are not all equal: some have higher energy, some lower. Particle collisions redistribute the energy until a certain thermal equilibrium distribution of energies has been reached: this is called the Boltzmann distribution (of particle energies).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Translational_motion.gif

According to the Boltzmann distribution, the number of particles possessing energy E is

https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/3/9/a39f5d633f3d9da1523f7bff6b0a337c.png

This distribution is characterized by a parameter T, which in statistical thermodynamics is the DEFINITION of absolute temperature (k is a physical constant, Boltzmann constant). For example, the distribution tells us that if the amount of particles having the energy E1 = kT is F(E1) = 100, then the amount of particles having twice that energy (i.e. E2 = 2E1 = 2kT) is only F(E2) = 37.

(Proof: according to the eq above, F(E2)/F(E1) = e^(-E2/kT) / e^(-E1/kT) = e^(-2)/e^(-1) = e^(-1) = 0.368.)

This makes only sense when the temperature T is positive: then the number of particles at higher energies is smaller than the number of particles at lower energies. But if the absolute temperature of the system was negative we would end up in a paradox: the number of particles with a given energy would be an exponentially increasing function of energy! Thus, if a (non-empty) system had negative absolute temperature, it would have an infinite amount of infinitely energetic particles. Such a system would be, not extremely cold, but extremely hot. It would release infinite amounts of heat to its surroundings. In fact, creating a negative absolute temperature anywhere within the universe would collapse the entire universe into a giant black hole ("big crunch".

I highly doubt captain Cold's weapon is a universe-buster.

http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-gas-goes-below-absolute-zero-1.12146

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-gas-goes-below-absolute-zero-1.12146
From the comments section of that article:

"There does seem to have been a lot of confusion caused by this article, possibly because some of its content was incorrect. In the original Science article, the authors explained quite lucidly what they had achieved and justified their claims with correct thermodynamic arguments. Unfortunately, in this piece by Zeeya Merali, she made the grave error of claiming the researchers had achieved temperatures below absolute zero. This was simply untrue as the original paper showed. Temperatures below absolute zero are simply not possible; achieving them would necessitate violating both the Second and Third Laws of Thermodynamics. No; odd as it may seem, due to the definition of temperature, negative temperatures are hotter than positive temperatures. This has been well known and accepted since the pioneering work of Purcell, Pound and Ramsey in the 1950's."

Please in particular note the part "negative temperatures are hotter than positive temperatures" just as I said in my previous post.

I personally feel this is the most scientifically accurate article to go by

http://www.howitworksdaily.com/can-dogs-look-up/

Human Torch wins.....

Originally posted by Galan007
Read the scan carefully. Cold's tech can generate temperatures below Absolute Zero. lol, that's stupid as phuck.

You guys are arguing real life physics with a Flash character of all things?

Comic logic =/= real life logic

Originally posted by -K-M-
You guys are arguing real life physics with a Flash character of all things?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW




Agreed

Yah. We all know Cold wins this, handily!

Originally posted by -K-M-
You guys are arguing real life physics with a Flash character of all things?
Well, I, for one, wasn't actually arguing as much as *explaining* what temperature is, and what *below absolute zero* would mean.

If F(E) is the number of particles within the system having energy E, then at negative absolute temperatures *by definition* this F(E) would be an exponentially increasing function of energy. I.e. the higher the energy the larger the number of particles with that energy. At the limit of infinite energy you would have infinite number of particles.

A (non-empty) negative-temperature system would thus have infinitely many infinitely energetic particles, and it would therefore be infinitely hot; releasing infinite amounts of heat to its surroundings.

If in DCU negative absolute temperature doesn't correspond to the above situation, then it means their very definition of temperature must be dramatically different from our scientific one. And if that is the case, any DC reference to e.g. absolute or below-absolute zero temperatures is meaningless since we don't know what they mean by those. In DC those might mean something very unimpressive. We'd only know that those are not the same things as our concepts with the same name.

Originally posted by Magnon
Well, I, for one, wasn't actually arguing as much as *explaining* what temperature is, and what *below absolute zero* would mean. lol, the ego.

I can't speak for everybody, but I understand absolute zero, and I can follow the science and the absurdity of below absolute zero temperatures...

... but I also understand that comics ask me to suspend my disbelief, and accept that Captain Cold can, through superscience, reach theoretically impossible temperatures.

EDIT: KMC has seen similar arguments about superluminal travel, including hypotheses that DC universe has a different standard for C, much like your conclusion that DC may have a "dramatically different" definition of temperature.

These arguments make big leaps and bound to avoid the very simple ideas put forward by authors. In a medium as varied and, again, absurd as comics, all we have to discuss are the ideas of the writers and artists.

Originally posted by Smurph
lol, the ego.

I can't speak for everybody, but I understand absolute zero, and I can follow the science and the absurdity of below absolute zero temperatures...

... but I also understand that comics ask me to suspend my disbelief, and accept that Captain Cold can, through superscience, reach theoretically impossible temperatures.

EDIT: KMC has seen similar arguments about superluminal travel, including hypotheses that DC universe has a different standard for C, much like your conclusion that DC may have a "dramatically different" definition of temperature.

These arguments make big leaps and bound to avoid the very simple ideas put forward by authors. In a medium as varied and, again, absurd as comics, all we have to discuss are the ideas of the writers and artists.

Lol, you didn't understand my post at all, it seems.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What else can you be swayed to do?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Just about anything...if the arguments are sound

This is also important.

I've seen a scan floating around where one of the Firestorms created an absolute zero ice cage.. And it seemed to be inside of the sun.

Wonder if that means an ice shield/field from Cold can tank a nova?

How's his defenses hold up against Heatwave? (Who I realize is less powerful then a nova burst.)

Just wanted to stop by and let everyone know that Smurph does, in fact, not know what absolute zero is.

It's time for the lies to stop, I've been keeping his secret for years.

Originally posted by cdtm
I've seen a scan floating around where one of the Firestorms created an absolute zero ice cage.. And it seemed to be inside of the sun.

Wonder if that means an ice shield/field from Cold can tank a nova?

How's his defenses hold up against Heatwave? (Who I realize is less powerful then a nova burst.)

Well, here you can see his ice sculptures still standing despite Heat Wave torching everything:

http://i.imgur.com/3AnP9Me.png

But yeah, Heat Wave is no Storm.