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I think it's possible we've been underestimating his power and/or overestimating those above him; or at least, I have been personally.

Why? Well, we are told by Minato that Six Paths Madara was (much?) stronger than Six Paths Obito. Which makes sense, he had much more of the Kyuubi's and Gyuuki's chakra.

My original hypothesis was that Naruto was, by demonstration, stronger than Rikudo Madara until the latter absorbed the Shinju. Now that I think about it, though, that doesn't make sense.

Why did the Juubi/Biju exist inside Obito/Madara after the former pulled out the Shinju? It wasn't like Obito was massively weakened afterward, and he didn't have Rinne Sharingan beforehand. Yet absorbing it somehow gave a huge power boost, despite Madara already having the Juubi in him?

What?

1) A piece of a Bijuu is enough for the Juubi. Bijuu chakra seems to regenerate.

2) The Juubi showed the ability to split itself earlier in the war. Same ability IMO.

3) The Tree form served as an extension of Obito. However, Madara couldn't control/use the Tree form.

EDIT: I'm surprised Minato could sense the Juubi's power when Naruto couldn't.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) A piece of a Bijuu is enough for the Juubi. Bijuu chakra seems to regenerate.

It's enough to form the Juubi, but it's power is incomplete without all of Kurama's and Gyuuki's power. Madara obtaining them *did* make his Rikudo Sage Mode more powerful, and he was much stronger than Obito to begin with. Minato was certainly not wrong, and that's not the point that I'm confused about...



Good point.



Still, though, Madara without the Shinju had more Sage power than Obito with it; most of the Juubi should be in the Shinju, so why...?

I would assume that the Shinju lost it's power as Obito did, but when Madara absorbed the Shinju he received a power boost and the Rinne Sharingan.

Why didn't Obito have the Rinne Sharingan before splitting with the Shinju?

The tree was just a split off "clone" of the Juubi so the tree could initiate the IS. The reason Obito didn't get the Sharinnegan was because he was not a reincarnation of Indra or Ashura. And the reason Madara probably got a massive boost in power likely had to do with all of the chakra the tree had absorbed from the army.

It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju.

Probably because it was in the tree.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Still, though, Madara without the Shinju had more Sage power than Obito with it; most of the Juubi should be in the Shinju, so why...?

As you said, Madara was a lot more powerful than Obito, and he acquired the Rinnegan/Hagoromo's chakra 'naturally'. He also had Gyuuki's chakra, Yang-Kurama's chakra, and Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra.
Obito also lacked control at first, and the control he later had wasn't perfect. He harboured doubts.
Madara had no such problems.

The Juubi seems to be able to exist as a separate entity from the rest of the Bijuu. There was that Rabbit thing that appeared later on with the Rinne Sharingan. I'm speculating at this point to be honest.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I would assume that the Shinju lost it's power as Obito did, but when Madara absorbed the Shinju he received a power boost and the Rinne Sharingan.

That eye in the flower remained open, so it didn't lose its power.
Madara also needed to get his left Rinnegan though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why didn't Obito have the Rinne Sharingan before splitting with the Shinju?

Presumably because he wasn't a true wielder of the Rinnegan (Madara needed both eyes).
Or the Juubi didn't want him to have it. Bijuu don't always grant their Jinchuurikii all of their power.

Madara didn't need both eyes. He awakened it as he absorbed the Shinju...

Madara, Black Zetsu (via tablet) & the 4th Databook disagree with you.

Absorbing the Tree form to get it makes more sense, but that wasn't what was shown when Madara opened the eye.

I always found it funny how Naruto's power-up seems a lot more all encompassing that Obito's even though the latter should've been closer to Hagoromo's power. I mean he still had more of the Juubi that Naruto, the ability to summons the Shinju, and a Rinnegan.

Exactly leading into my next point.

Have we been underestimating Juubito? Could he be as strong/stronger than Naruto/Sasuke at their peak?

I mean, just the remnant of Obito's Six Paths Chakra was able to give Kakashi an amp similar to the one Naruto/Sasuke received from Hagoromo. It didn't last as long, but still...



Quote pls

Also, the Shinju seemed to contain Kaguya's personality too, heh.

Well yeah Juubito is strong. Frankly if it weren't for statements I'd sure as hell would find him more impressive than Juubidara. Ripped the Hokage barrier down like wrapping paper, created a similar barrier like it was an afterthought, has more impressive Truth Ball showings. Only reason he lost was the numerical advantage and the fact that he was feeling regret for what he was doing. He had no reason to engage Naruto and Sasuke the way that he did.

I agree that Obito's use of the Gudoudama was much more creative and useful.

But is he as strong as Naruto/Sasuke with the Yin/Yang seals? (Sans Chibaku Tensei ofc)

Also, do you guys think Obito was "capable" of using the Six Paths? He used the black chakra receiver rods, and the Outer Path--but never Deva or Preta. He wasn't able to use Kamui as a Juubi Jin either...

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I always found it funny how Naruto's power-up seems a lot more all encompassing that Obito's even though the latter should've been closer to Hagoromo's power. I mean he still had more of the Juubi that Naruto, the ability to summons the Shinju, and a Rinnegan.

Well, Naruto got his power-up directly from Hagoromo, the Bijuu co-operated with him (tying into the whole Hagoromo prophecy), and Obito's transformation didn't seem to be perfect. So maybe all of that had something to do with it.

But the real answer is that Kishimoto decides his power levels at random, obviously.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well yeah Juubito is strong. Frankly if it weren't for statements I'd sure as hell would find him more impressive than Juubidara. Ripped the Hokage barrier down like wrapping paper, created a similar barrier like it was an afterthought, has more impressive Truth Ball showings.

Madara's Chibaku Tensei and regeneration were hella impressive though.

Plus, you know, Infinite Tsukuyomi, which Obito never got the chance to use. 313

When the most impressive thing you've got in regen you've become Wolverine. No one wants to be Wolverine.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Well, Naruto got his power-up directly from Hagoromo, the Bijuu co-operated with him (tying into the whole Hagoromo prophecy), and Obito's transformation didn't seem to be perfect. So maybe all of that had something to do with it.

But the real answer is that Kishimoto decides his power levels at random, obviously.


It still seems odd when you compare who has what.

Juubito: Six path senjutsu, Rinnegan, Juubi vessel, 1-7 w/8-9 fragments for biju, and Shinju

vs

EoS Naruto: Six path senjutsu, 1/2 9 w/1-8 fragments for biju

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
It still seems odd when you compare who has what.

Juubito: Six path senjutsu, Rinnegan, Juubi vessel, 1-7 w/8-9 fragments for biju, and Shinju

vs

EoS Naruto: Six path senjutsu, 1/2 9 w/1-8 fragments for biju

Naruto had almost half of Hagaromo's power though. And Hagaromo defeated the ten tails before he even became it's jinchuriki. That's something that even Hashirama couldn't do, and even Tobirama was still able to contend with Jyuubito, once he got serious.

So Hagaromo's chakra/powers made a huge difference, when Naruto and Sasuke were already super OP.

But in regards to the Madara/Obito thing, the reason Madara was so much stronger was because instead of just the Jyuubi, he also had the Shinju, which had been gathering chakra for fifteen minutes, and had nearly become able to use Infinite Tsukiyomi. That had to be generating a ton of chakra.

SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Trained) >Rikudou Madara > SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Untrained) > Juubi Obito

I'm not sure what you mean by "trained" when neither character got what you could call down time.

I think he's implying they kept their powers.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, the Shinju seemed to contain Kaguya's personality too, heh. Originally posted by NewGuy01
I agree that Obito's use of the Gudoudama was much more creative and useful.

But is he as strong as Naruto/Sasuke with the Yin/Yang seals? (Sans Chibaku Tensei ofc)

Also, do you guys think Obito was "capable" of using the Six Paths? He used the black chakra receiver rods, and the Outer Path--but never Deva or Preta. He wasn't able to use Kamui as a Juubi Jin either... i think jubito will win this

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju. Originally posted by AuraAngel
Probably because it was in the tree. i think jubito will win here

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju. Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju. i think juubito will win here

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju. Originally posted by AuraAngel
When the most impressive thing you've got in regen you've become Wolverine. No one wants to be Wolverine. i think juubito will win here

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's implied strongly that Madara himself didn't get the RS until he absorbed the Shinju. Originally posted by BeyonderGod
SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Trained) >Rikudou Madara > SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Untrained) > Juubi Obito i think jubito will win here

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) A piece of a Bijuu is enough for the Juubi. Bijuu chakra seems to regenerate.

2) The Juubi showed the ability to split itself earlier in the war. Same ability IMO.

3) The Tree form served as an extension of Obito. However, Madara couldn't control/use the Tree form.

EDIT: I'm surprised Minato could sense the Juubi's power when Naruto couldn't. Originally posted by BeyonderGod
SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Trained) >Rikudou Madara > SO6P Naruto and Sasuke (Untrained) > Juubi Obito i think jubito will win here

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) A piece of a Bijuu is enough for the Juubi. Bijuu chakra seems to regenerate.

2) The Juubi showed the ability to split itself earlier in the war. Same ability IMO.

3) The Tree form served as an extension of Obito. However, Madara couldn't control/use the Tree form.

EDIT: I'm surprised Minato could sense the Juubi's power when Naruto couldn't. Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
1) A piece of a Bijuu is enough for the Juubi. Bijuu chakra seems to regenerate.

2) The Juubi showed the ability to split itself earlier in the war. Same ability IMO.

3) The Tree form served as an extension of Obito. However, Madara couldn't control/use the Tree form.

EDIT: I'm surprised Minato could sense the Juubi's power when Naruto couldn't. i think jubito will win here