Lord Scourge vs Savage Opress

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Sinious
All out

Neutral ground.

Who is the superior dark sider?

Nephthys
Scourge "savages" him.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/c95f3fd1faac97fa2525963fdfc39c49/tumblr_nrp305Y0qe1usvsqco2_1280.png

Emperordmb
NEPH!!!! WTF ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT PICTURE?!!!! HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!! **** YOU NEPH!!!!!! I'M GONNA SPEND THE NEXT 2 PAGES INSULTING YOU FOR THIS YOU ******!!!!

Deronn_solo
Opress.

carthage
Savage kicks his ass

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Emperordmb
NEPH!!!! WTF ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT PICTURE?!!!! HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!! **** YOU NEPH!!!!!! I'M GONNA SPEND THE NEXT 2 PAGES INSULTING YOU FOR THIS YOU ******!!!!
That butthurt is worse than the butthurt Scourge is going to feel when Savage rapes him.

Deronn_solo
smile

Sinious
Hmm, so Carthage, Deronn Solo and Freshest have Savage > Scourge. I wonder if anyone objects with this other than Neph.

SunRazer
Yeah, the obvious counter is going to be "Savage's an unrefined, dumb brute", while "Scourge has three centuries of combat experience".

Jmanghan
Savage is like Shaak Ti level at max. :/

Deronn_solo
>Implyimg Scourge is better than Ti.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DC, I hope that you don't contract AIDS. smile

Nephthys
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, the obvious counter is going to be "Savage's an unrefined, dumb brute", while "Scourge has three centuries of combat experience".

Savage is certainly a dumb brute, yes. But it doesn't matter if he's unrefined, Scourge is still nautical miles more refined than him and just better in general.

Sinious
I'm siding Scourge myself tbh.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage is certainly a dumb brute, yes. But it doesn't matter if he's unrefined, Scourge is still nautical miles more refined than him and just better in general.
http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-01/enhanced/webdr03/3/18/anigif_enhanced-buzz-2405-1388792082-22.gif

What are feats anyway?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DC, I hope that you don't contract AIDS. smile
To late, I did when I clicked on this thread. sad

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
I'm siding Scourge myself tbh.

Deronn_solo
^^
LAL.

S_W_LeGenD
Lord Scourge WTFpwns.

carthage
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
^^
LAL.

Sinious
I wonder if people have Savage above HoT as well.

carthage
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
^^
LAL.

Nai
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What are feats anyway?

Feats are demonstrations of skill and power, made for people who can see and read quite well, yet, are seemingly incapable of thinking or using their imagination.

In this particular case, we could have a nice load of showings for Savage. But then, even without going through the Revan novel, the fact remains that Scourge has killed more than a thousand people that Vitiate judged "too powerful" or "too ambitious" to be left alive. If we go by the people that are still alive in the Sith Empire in the times of SW:ToR, we can conclude that Scourge faced at least some rather dangerous individuals in combat. Hell. From the idea that some of them were "too powerful" according to the judgement of Vitiate leads to the suggestion, that he was fighting some extremely powerful adversaries. And he vanquished them all in a career lasting three centuries.

And if you just think about those numbers for a brief moment and take into account that Scourge, even in the Revan novel, is described as a prodigious talent in terms of lightsaber combat and the force, I wonder how Savage does even register next to that.

Compared to Scourge, Savage is just lightsaber fodder.

FreshestSlice
Exactly. I should just imagine up how powerful Scourge must be, because the "load of showings" that Scourge has, like losing 2-v-1 to Nyriss, almost 1-v-1 to an Act II Hero of Tython, and killing a few Imperial Guards, he also killed a thousand randoms over 300 hundred years. And sure, those randoms have no name and showings of their own, and they totally don't exist just to hype the all-powerful-Scourge, but they must clearly be of note, because hey, Vitiate had them assassinated in an unknown manner.

SunRazer
I thought Nai dismissed a number of Palpatine's "most powerful" quotes on the basis that they could refer to political power or some other form of power, not necessarily Force Power. Mind explaining why that suddenly doesn't apply to those nameless unknowns that Vitiate considered "too powerful" for his liking? And for all we know, Vitiate could just be paranoid (which he pretty much is, anyway), so "too powerful" could well be, well, not that powerful at all in the grand scheme of things.

And LOL @ the idea that those unknowns being "too ambitious" somehow makes them impressive kills. Some of Korriban's acolytes are probably more ambitious than some Sith Lords, but that hardly makes them powerful.

We also have no idea how Scourge killed them. It could've well been assassinations the vast majority of the time, or legitimate confrontations. Who knows? Point being that killing some faceless unknowns that exist solely to hype Scourge doesn't fodderize other characters of impressive stature, such as Savage Opress. He's beaten powerful beings too, and we have objective, third-person sources claiming that they're some of the most powerful Jedi in all of history. So yeah, Scourge doesn't have any kills which make Savage look like fodder in comparison, and doing the same thing over and over for three centuries isn't a feat in of itself. Sure, Scourge is more experienced, but apart from that and his natural ability to engorge himself on others' emotions, he doesn't have any advantages here.

Nephthys
Yes, I'm sure Vitiate gives a shit about the ambitions of a Korriban acolyte.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I'm sure Vitiate gives a shit about the ambitions of a Korriban acolyte.

LMFAO. Don't know why the point was so difficult to get. Ambition means the square root of jack shit in terms of power. I could aspire to be the Prime Minister, but with no political experience, presence or followers, I'm not a genuine threat to him, and I have no chance of becoming the Prime Minister (for now).

Sinious
How do explain the Dark Council's fear of him then?

FreshestSlice
Explain how ask powerful Vowrawn got casually one-shot'd? Could it be that holding a position in the Empire doesn't make you powerful on its own?

SunRazer
Originally posted by Sinious
How do explain the Dark Council's fear of him then?

Reputation, perhaps?

Not that it matters, since Dooku considered Savage a threat as well, and Dooku is more skilled and more powerful than a vast majority of the Dark Council.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Explain how ask powerful Vowrawn got casually one-shot'd? Could it be that holding a position in the Empire doesn't make you powerful on its own? LOL @ lowballing a 1300 years old council consisted of Empire's very best based on 1 weak member. Originally posted by SunRazer
Reputation, perhaps?

Not that it matters, since Dooku considered Savage a threat as well, and Dooku is more skilled and more powerful than a vast majority of the Dark Council. Reputation based on nothing? LOL this is the Dark Council, not the common people in the empire.

Considering someone a threat is not the same as outright fearing someone.

NewGuy01
While thematically and holistically Scourge should be stronger than anyone on the Dark Council, from what we've seen this doesn't seem to be the case.

Rather, it seems more like he's inferior to quite a few of them. Namely Marr, Jadus, and Nox, but likely some others as well.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ lowballing a 1300 years old council consisted of Empire's very best based on 1 weak member. Reputation based on nothing? LOL this is the Dark Council, not the common people in the empire.

Considering someone a threat is not the same as outright fearing someone.
In other words, you have nothing to show why being on the Dark Council makes you comparatively superior or even on par with the higher ups of the mythos.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Sinious
Reputation based on nothing? LOL this is the Dark Council, not the common people in the empire.

Considering someone a threat is not the same as outright fearing someone.

Reputation potentially spread by the Emperor or reputation based on him killing select powerful beings in unidentified (and thus potentially clandestine) ways. So it's not baseless reputation, but hardly beyond Savage either.

As far as objective sources go, I believe it was only stated that the Dark Council was wary of Scourge, which is kind of the same as considering him a threat. Only Sajar outright states the Council was afraid of him, IIRC. And as NewGuy said, the likes of Marr and Jadus seem to be stronger than him and are unlikely to be afraid of him. I'd also expect a number of Nyriss-tier individuals over the years, and whilst Scourge would've grown over the years, I doubt it's by enough of a margin to compensate for the clear disparity shown between him and Nyriss in the novel.

And I know I'll catch flak for this from the TORists, but frankly, Savage is just better than most Dark Councillors anyway.

Sinious
@Newguy

At his peak, we only see him fight HoT and everytime HoT faced some hyped character, he had no problem defeating them, some way before his prime actually. Yet he only stalemated Scourge. I know HoT isn't that respected in these forums but that's a very impressive showing imo and there is nothing that contradicts with the hype Scourge has. But yeah, he isn't above all the DC members.

@FreshestSlice

Savage is a TCW character where the fights are full of inconsistency. Maul for example, disarms him without any effort after 2-3 strikes but then he goes toe to toe with people who can keep up with Maul. Also, it specifically says, "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council" so I'm pretty sure Vowrawn is irrelevant here. thumb up

@Sunrazer

I'm not saying Scourge is more powerful than every single DC member ever lived and in the novel, Scourge hasn't neared his peak yet. In fact, he was far from it. Not to mention, he didn't just get more experience after the book or reached his natural potential but was also amped by the Emperor which made him an even more deadly combatant. On the contrary, I think its clear that SWTOR Scourge is far above his novel incarnation.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Sinious


@Sunrazer

I'm not saying Scourge is more powerful than every single DC member ever lived and in the novel, Scourge hasn't neared his peak yet. In fact, he was far from it. Not to mention, he didn't just get more experience after the book or reached his natural potential but was also amped by the Emperor which made him an even more deadly combatant. On the contrary, I think its clear that SWTOR Scourge is far above his novel incarnation.

I'm aware he improved dramatically. It doesn't change my stance.

Sinious
Nah, he left the academy 2 years before the novel so he was still a noob at that point (still got pretty decent feats though). You're comparing that version of Scourge to the one who reached his full potential+got amped+got 300 years of training and killing 1100 force users and still think that the difference isn't big enough for him to surpass Nyriss? laughing out loud

SunRazer
Where did I ever compare that version of Scourge to the game one? And no, he wasn't particularly impressive in the novel. Where's the part that says the Emperor amped him anyway?

In the end, it's down to feats, where Nyriss is just Scourge's superior. 300 years of training and experience doesn't change that. Killing numerous unknowns doesn't change that either. Show me what implies SWTOR Scourge is capable of doing what Nyriss did to novel Scourge and Surik at same time. Because he wasn't able to beat the HoT, who, as of Act II, I frankly don't see doing what Nyriss did.

And none of this shows that Scourge would fodderize Savage, either.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
Where did I ever compare that version of Scourge to the game one? And no, he wasn't particularly impressive in the novel. Where's the part that says the Emperor amped him anyway?

In the end, it's down to feats, where Nyriss is just Scourge's superior. 300 years of training and experience doesn't change that. Killing numerous unknowns doesn't change that either. Show me what implies SWTOR Scourge is capable of doing what Nyriss did to novel Scourge and Surik at same time. Because he wasn't able to beat the HoT, who, as of Act II, I frankly don't see doing what Nyriss did.

And none of this shows that Scourge would fodderize Savage, either.

What? That's what you've been doing in the entire page. IIRC, it was mentioned in the SWTORE.

Stalemating Act II Finale HoT(which is pretty close to endgame HoT) > Nyriss imo.

And I never said Scourge wold fodderize Savage.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SunRazer
LMFAO. Don't know why the point was so difficult to get. Ambition means the square root of jack shit in terms of power. I could aspire to be the Prime Minister, but with no political experience, presence or followers, I'm not a genuine threat to him, and I have no chance of becoming the Prime Minister (for now).

You're being stupid. If someone's ambitions warrant attention from Vitiate then they'd obviously have to represent an actual threat. You can aspire to be Prime Minister and no one would give a flying shit about it because you don't stand a chance in hell. If, however, you had large public support and were an serious political force then you would stand a chance and your ambition would need to be curbed. That would necessitate that you actually had political power. Just like for Vitiate to care about someone ambitions, they'd have to actually be a force to be recognised as significant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Reputation potentially spread by the Emperor or reputation based on him killing select powerful beings in unidentified (and thus potentially clandestine) ways. So it's not baseless reputation, but hardly beyond Savage either.

This is ridiculous. If Vitaite needed to fake Scourge a reputation then there's no reason he'd bother with him in the first place. He'd kill him and get a stronger enforcer. Also Scourge doesn't operate in a clandestine manner. He's a heavy armor warrior, not a steal assassin. When he goes to kill Sajar he walks up to a Republic base with the intent of killing everyone present in the open.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
While thematically and holistically Scourge should be stronger than anyone on the Dark Council, from what we've seen this doesn't seem to be the case.

Rather, it seems more like he's inferior to quite a few of them. Namely Marr, Jadus, and Nox, but likely some others as well.

Scourge isn't inferior to Marr. Jadus and Nox are clearly exceptional as well.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Explain how ask powerful Vowrawn got casually one-shot'd? Could it be that holding a position in the Empire doesn't make you powerful on its own?

Vowrawn is the exception. He makes up for his lack of personal ability with political and manipulative genius and by surrounding himself with bodyguards. Numerous sources state that the position of the Dark Council requires one to face immense hardship and only the most powerful Sith last very long at all. In fact, contrary to your assertion, it's directly stated that the Sith on the council are among the most powerful Sith in the Empire.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vowrawn is the exception. He makes up for his lack of personal ability with political and manipulative genius and by surrounding himself with bodyguards. Numerous sources state that the position of the Dark Council requires one to face immense hardship and only the most powerful Sith last very long at all. In fact, contrary to your assertion, it's directly stated that the Sith on the council are among the most powerful Sith in the Empire.
People are on the Dark Council for weeks at a time, and you expect me to believe that Vowrawn is literally the only one of his relative level that uses his head to stay alive? Complete and utter bullshit, Neph, and you know it.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Sinious
Also, it specifically says, "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council" so I'm pretty sure Vowrawn is irrelevant here. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Yeah, and even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear Imperial Guards. Is every member of the Imperial Guard also superior to Savage, Sinious or DMB? There's no indication that Vowrawn isn't considered powerful for that matter either, or his placement in power relative to everyone else.

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
People are on the Dark Council for weeks at a time, and you expect me to believe that Vowrawn is literally the only one of his relative level that uses his head to stay alive? Complete and utter bullshit, Neph, and you know it.

People are on the Dark Council for weeks because the competition is that tough (or you know, war happens). I said that Vowrawn was the exception, not that he's some unparalleled genius. I'm sure that every few generations theres someone who can play the game well enough to survive on guile alone, but they are not the norm. The overwhelming majority of the council is made up of the most powerful Sith alive.

Also, Vowrawn has contended with a number of conflicts from schemes to surprise attacks. He's formidable in his own right.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
People are on the Dark Council for weeks because the competition is that tough (or you know, war happens). I said that Vowrawn was the exception, not that he's some unparalleled genius. I'm sure that every few generations theres someone who can play the game well enough to survive on guile alone, but they are not the norm. The overwhelming majority of the council is made up of the most powerful Sith alive.

Except we know that quite a bit of them are not, and they die on a consistent basis. They live because they play the game AND perpetuate a since of superiority, but they are not inherently more powerful than their underlings just because they are on the Dark Council. But them being powerful wasn't even the claim being made. The claim being made is that because the Dark Council has a fear of Scourge, he must be comparable to Savage. Which isn't true, because going by that logic, Cipher Nine is comparable to Savage. If Scourge is going to defeat Savage, it will have to be on his own merit, and by that I mean proven showings, not the opinion of randoms in TOR.

And he still gets oneshotted by someone who is probably below Scourge.

Zenwolf
Tbh the DC is overrated aside from a few notable members, sure they are the most powerful in the Empire. ....But how exactly is that impressive? More powerful compared to...who exactly and what would those guys show that would be considered a wow factor?

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except we know that quite a bit of them are not, and they die on a consistent basis. They live because they play the game AND perpetuate a since of superiority, but they are not inherently more powerful than their underlings just because they are on the Dark Council.

Not really, they die constantly to Swtor protags or Vitiate. Thats not a mark against them. Also "quite a bit are not?" We've seen two who aren't that strong and one of them was just weakened from age and used to be massively powerful. When we see a DC members abilities they're usually very, very strong.

And since statements do say that the DC are the most powerful Sith then yeah actually, it's a safe assumption that they're more powerful than their underlings. It might not be 100% certain, but being on the DC is strong evidence for a Sith to be an immensely powerful badass.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But them being powerful wasn't even the claim being made.The claim being made is that because the Dark Council has a fear of Scourge, he must be comparable to Savage. Which isn't true, because going by that logic, Cipher Nine is comparable to Savage. If Scourge is going to defeat Savage, it will have to be on his own merit, and by that I mean proven showings, not the opinion of randoms in TOR.

Well like Dmb is trying to bring to attention, it's actually that even the most powerful among the council fear him. Which is certainly more impressive that you're giving it credit for. Also, don't be silly. No-one is solely relying upon just that piece of evidence to indicate Scourge > Savage. It's simply the topic under discussion. It's reductive to act like thats all Scourge has going for him.

Also Cipher 9 probably is comparable to Savage honestly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And he still gets oneshotted by someone who is probably below Scourge.

A few minutes before Draagh gets killed by Vowrawns ally, yeah.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah, and even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear Imperial Guards. Is every member of the Imperial Guard also superior to Savage, Sinious or DMB? There's no indication that Vowrawn isn't considered powerful for that matter either, or his placement in power relative to everyone else. LOL @ "every member of the Imperial Guard". You sure its not meant collectively?

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Exactly! The Imperial Guard is feared as an organization, not on individual level.

Nephthys
Well some are on an individual level. Like that one dude who'd killed a dozen Sith Lords.

S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Yes, members of the Imperial Guard are among the best warriors in the galaxy.

If a single member of the Imperial Guard can give a Yoda-tier Force-user a pause, imagine a dozen of them swarming a single opponent. Nobody stands a chance against large groups of them with conventional means.

Nephthys
You mean, other than the Hero of Tython. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Yes, members of the Imperial Guard are among the best warriors in the galaxy.

If a single member of the Imperial Guard can give a Yoda-tier Force-user a pause, imagine a dozen of them swarming a single opponent. Nobody stands a chance against large groups of them with conventional means.
Vat?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, they die constantly to Swtor protags or Vitiate. Thats not a mark against them. Also "quite a bit are not?" We've seen two who aren't that strong and one of them was just weakened from age and used to be massively powerful. When we see a DC members abilities they're usually very, very strong.

Losing consistently to people who are around Scourge's level when they're defeated is a mark against them. But I'll go over the list.
Vowrawn, Acina, Zhorrid. I'm also not a huge fan of wanking Thanaton, Arkous, Jadus, etc, who are all people who lose consistently, and badly, to people who aren't miles above Savage when they lose to them.

No it's not. Otherwise their underlings wouldn't murder them on a consistent basis and powerplays wouldn't be destroying the Empire. If a Darth is more powerful than their underlings just because, they shouldn't be going missing on a consistent basis.


Which doesn't change my point at all. Also i'm still waiting for a single feat by Scourge, and I mean feat, that would make him comparable to Savage in any area besides skill. Even there all Scourge has is accolades that boil down to, "He's powerful because he killed randoms." Like most of TOR, Scourge has next to no showings, and that's all I actually care about. Accolades mean shit on their own.

Also this is pretty retarded even for you, honestly.

Who is a protag. "That's not a mark against ."

Zenwolf
What the f**k? Uh....Guards giving Yoda-tiers pause?....Riight....no.

Also if dozens of them have to swarm a single opponent that's just laughable.

But then again, they weren't entirely bright as they ran straight into a wall of blaster fire soo...I wouldn't put it passed them to do that.

Sinious
Scourge eats Imperial Guards for breakfast tbh.

Originally posted by Zenwolf

But then again, they weren't entirely bright as they ran straight into a wall of blaster fire soo...I wouldn't put it passed them to do that. More like Drew isn't bright.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Sinious
Scourge eats Imperial Guards for breakfast tbh.

More like Drew isn't bright.

Why not both?

Sinious
Cause they're confirmed to be the opposite of that.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Sinious
Cause they're confirmed to be the opposite of that.

Where tho? Never seen anything to note in regarding their tact capability. Just that they were in top form, feared by Sith Lords(which at times I have a hard time believing, except martial wise) and taken from troopers and slaves.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vat?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
What the f**k? Uh....Guards giving Yoda-tiers pause?....Riight....no.
You guys don't read books?

I am pointing a finger towards Revan.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Also if dozens of them have to swarm a single opponent that's just laughable.

But then again, they weren't entirely bright as they ran straight into a wall of blaster fire soo...I wouldn't put it passed them to do that.
SWTOR(E) reveals that it is suicidal for a single individual to resist a group of Imperial Guard.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


SWTOR(E) reveals that it is suicidal for a single individual to resist a group of Imperial Guard.

I somehow don't find that particularly impressive, because a single individual against a group of well trained guys wouldn't bold well regardless.

Sinious
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Where tho? Never seen anything to note in regarding their tact capability. Just that they were in top form, feared by Sith Lords(which at times I have a hard time believing, except martial wise) and taken from troopers and slaves. Hmm, fair point. IG simply needs more exposure like most things in SWTOR lol

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm, fair point. IG simply needs more exposure like most things in SWTOR lol

Plus the Sith Warriors(least in the Hope/Deceived trailer) seemed to follow the same, they had some god complex and charged straight into blaster fire too.

But yeah, though I doubt were gonna get anything more now considering the Guard has all been wiped out.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Where tho? Never seen anything to note in regarding their tact capability. Just that they were in top form, feared by Sith Lords(which at times I have a hard time believing, except martial wise) and taken from troopers and slaves.

'The Empire's ultimate non-Force sensitive warriors, the Imperial Guard is a selfless army devoted to the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Clad in blood-red armor and wielding deadly weaponry designed to exterminate Force users, the Imperial Guard sweep across the Galaxy at the Emperor's command, destroying his enemies both outside and inside the Empire. When confronted by the Imperial Guard, the mightiest of Sith have laid down their lightsabers and surrendered to the inevitable death offered by a guardsman's electrostaff. Even members of the Dark Council fear the Imperial Guard, though many would die before confessing such weakness."

'unmatched in martial skill.'

"According to Imperial databanks, Guardsman Lassicar was born to slave parents in the conquered system of Begeren. He gained the Empire's attention when he personally executed his parents and exposed their terrorist cell to Moff Harvus. Lassicar's subsequent rise through the ranks of the Imperial Guard is the fastest on record.

He has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the fatal mistake of crossing the Emperor. A team of SIS agents sent to assassinate him returned to Coruscant in a series of small containers. Lassicar's survival instincts and combat skills should not be underestimated."

Note that Lassicar isn't even a Captain.

Nyriss also thinks that theres no chance of her beating the Imperial Guard.

Zenwolf
Ok Neph, that doesn't tell me anything regarding the tactical ability that is used, just that they are great martial combatants...which is obvious and I noted. If you're referring to the fear thing, I noted that as pure martial wise then yeah, there would be something to fear...but if including vast Force powers, I don't see that point.

Nephthys
I was more replying to your doubts about them being feared. Don't much care about tactical abilities because the scene you mentioned is obviously Drew being a raging incompetent.

The IG's can draw on Vitiates power to resist even Revan caliber Force powers also btw, if they're near him. But considering the statements, the Force isn't something that trumps them regardless.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was more replying to your doubts about them being feared. Don;y much care about tactical abilities because the scene you mentioned is obviously Drew being a raging incompetent.

Never said I doubted as them being feared, as martial wise sure they are, but including Force Powers? I can't see that.

The one Guard resisted a TK push and even then as I recall he was pushed back, he just wasn't sent flying.

But how does that defend them from things like Force Lighting/Force Storm?

Also if they have to be near him, then I still don't see how it makes much sense for Force Powers not to work on them generally when not near him.

Nephthys
The Guards fight Sith Lords all the time. Obviously they can beat Force powers.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Guards fight Sith Lords all the time. Obviously they can beat Force powers.

Or said Sith Lords just go straight for martial attacks, there's no real basis for them to withstand Force powers other than they having to be near their Master just to resist being Force Pushed...which wouldn't be the same as Force Lighting anyway.

In a neutral ground setting, yeah martial wise sure I can see a Guard taking wins...including Force powers though? I don't see that.

But anyway were trailing off topic here, so I don't wanna derail anymore.

Nephthys
Didn't you read the part where Sith lay down their sabers because their loss is inevitable? If all it took was the Force that wouldn't be the case. Non Force sensitives can defeat Force users through conventional battle tactics and abilities.

The Empire includes huge numbers of Sith who rely on the Force over their martial abilities. Even Nyriss couldn't beat the Guards and her Force powers were hefty indeed.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't you read the part where Sith lay down their sabers because their loss is inevitable? If all it took was the Force that wouldn't be the case. Non Force sensitives can defeat Force users through conventional battle tactics and abilities.

The Empire includes huge numbers of Sith who rely on the Force over their martial abilities. Even Nyriss couldn't beat the Guards and her Force powers were hefty indeed.

I did, but that quote seems to suggest then that the average Sith Lord doesn't have any huge Force Powers to display and is mostly a martial combatant.

The thing with Nyriss as you noted, it wouldn't be against 1 Guard as I recall there being a large number of Guardsmen which would be a swarming tact, which of course then she wouldn't be able to kill them all if they swarmed. N

Sinious
So could Savage stalemate Act II Hot?

FreshestSlice
Not that Scourge can, but probably.

Sinious
He did erm and probably not erm

Nai
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Exactly. I should just imagine up how powerful Scourge must be, because the "load of showings" that Scourge has, like losing 2-v-1 to Nyriss, almost 1-v-1 to an Act II Hero of Tython, and killing a few Imperial Guards, he also killed a thousand randoms over 300 hundred years. And sure, those randoms have no name and showings of their own, and they totally don't exist just to hype the all-powerful-Scourge, but they must clearly be of note, because hey, Vitiate had them assassinated in an unknown manner.

Welcome to Nai's logical errors 101. This time we deal with the "feature positive effect", that leads to this precise line of thinking. Our brains have serious problems with imagining and noticing "nonoccurances". For example: Assuming that you don't have any form of pain right now, you won't usually notice that fact and think about how glad you are, that you don't suffer from any form of pain in the moment. Because the pain is something that does not occur to you.

The same effect takes place here: You can observe Savage doing stuff and automatically your brain puts that actions over the actions of Scourge that you can't observe. In fact, you completely ignore the idea that something noteworthy happened that hasn't been narrated or depicted en detail, leading to your precise line of thought. There are no direct observeable feats for Scourge that are impressive, there are some for Savage, thus Savage > Scourge.

And you don't even spot the outright hilarity of that line of thought. Of couse the 1,000 Sith and 100 Jedi just exist in order to "hype" Scourge, because the makers of SW:ToR didn't have the option to let him kick serious ass with onscreen time. But if you outright ignore the implications made by that single statement, that obviously doesn't work in contrast to another character who has observeable feats.

But: Just think about the sheer number of individuals that Scourge faced in combat. Even if their level of skill and competence was following the rules of normal destribution - despite the fact that they were labelled "too powerful or too ambitious" according to Vitiate's judgement, which pretty much contradict the idea of "average joes" among them - you would end up with the three-sigma rule for their skill levels.

That would mean that about 68.2 % of Scourge opponents were "average", with 13.6 % being one tier better / worse; 2.1 % being two tiers better / worse and 0.1 % being 3 tiers better / worse. Now you could equate those "standard deviations" from the norm with ranks that Force users rise through:

Acolyte / Padawan > Sith Lord / Jedi Knight > Jedi Master / Darth > Council Members

But if we do actually consider the things stated about Scourge's targets and the outright fear that other people, even members of the Dark Council, had for him, one might consider Acolytes / Padawans not worthy of Scourge's attention. That would leave the other ranks, meaning that Scourge would have killed, about:


682 Sith Lords, 68 Jedi Knights
136 people with a "Darth" ranking, 14 Jedi Masters
21 Council Members, 2 Jedi Council Members
one exceptionally powerful Sith


This is, of course, just statistic and speculation. It's just there to illustrate a very simple point: Scourge has personally killed more Force users than any other character in the entire mythos outside the realm of RPG mobs, with Vitiate (8,000+ Sith Lords) and possible Tulak Hord (1,000 Jedi, singlehandly slaughtered) being the only exceptions. He had 300 years to perfect his already considerable duelling abilities and realize his above average force potential. Not even mentioning the augments (alchemy, cybernetics) that were designed to make him stronger for combat specifically. So do you really want to ignore that and go by his appearance in the Revan novel, which is, pretty much, what you've done so far?


@SunRazer
Originally posted by SunRazer
I thought Nai dismissed a number of Palpatine's "most powerful" quotes on the basis that they could refer to political power or some other form of power, not necessarily Force Power. Mind explaining why that suddenly doesn't apply to those nameless unknowns that Vitiate considered "too powerful" for his liking? And for all we know, Vitiate could just be paranoid (which he pretty much is, anyway), so "too powerful" could well be, well, not that powerful at all in the grand scheme of things.


First: Who said that couldn't apply to those Sith?

Second: This is still an ad hominem, as my view regarding other topic has nothing to do with this particular debate. Furthermore it doesn't even matter, if you'd be so kind to look at my user-title. I'm here to steer debates, not to get my personal points across.

Thirdly: Yes. It could refer to political power or some other form of power. But then, you may want to take a step back and take into consideration, that the guy "judging" them is the Emperor who's control over the Empire is pretty much unquestioned before he disappears (after the treaty of Coruscant) especially on the political field. The Second Wrath is capable of outright overwriting the commands of Dark Council Member Darth Baras by citing his own position, demonstrating quite clearly who reigns the political field.

Not that I, personally, see much reason for Vitiate executing anybody, since he outclasses every other person in the Empire easily.



We are, if I may remind you, still talking about the Sith Empire. Being in a position were you can be too ambitious for the taste of Vitiate does pretty much automatically mean you have already reached a position in which he would even notice you. And to do that, you need to be rather powerful.



Even assuming that it were assassinations: In order to kill somebody, he would - without doubt - cut a bloody path through the respective persons security and then it's still virtually impossible to catch another Sith "off guard" (e.g. asleep in his bed or something like that). So in most scenarious, a direct confrontation would be inevitible. Which would give Scourge more than a thousand lightsaber duels. Even assuming he just killed 10 percent of his victims in direct combat, he would have seen by far more lightsaber action than Savage.



By claiming that Savage has "beaten" them, you making it sound as if somebody attempted to stop him by using everything possible. Which has never happened. The only exception is Dooku, who casually owns Savage with the force while dealing with Ventress at the same time and then Sidious, who kill him. I'm pretty certain that no Jedi did ever confront him with the will to strike him down, while none of those he managed to actually kill was any more noteable than one of Scourge's (supposely "random"wink victims.



Scourge has killed what the source material sells as the most powerful and ambitious Jedi and Sith alike for 300 years. The respective quote makes it clear, that we shouldn't even think about "average joes" getting killed by Scourge, but rather more powerful adversaries.

But even assuming that his victims represent an average of Jedi / Sith respectively, the sheer numbers suggest that there have been people on (Jedi / Dark) Council level among them (see above).

Furthermore, you should note that most of Scourge's Jedi kills probably happened after the start of the war up to the point where he joins the Hero of Tython - about 38 years. If a single being would bring down 1 percent of the Jedi population in the entire Galaxy (order was never bigger than 10,000 and Scourge killed at least 100), you should view that individual as pretty skilled, instead of thinking "KEK! He probably just killed fodder!". wink

DarthAnt66
I hereby declare Nai the leading debater in all things Scourge after the slaughter he just performed.

EDIT: Ah, it seems Nai took into equation even my suggestion. Awesome.

DarthAnt66
Nai, do you mind if I add your calculations of Scourge into my RT? I'll give you credit.

Sinious
This is indeed a slaughter. thumb up

Also: Originally posted by Nai


Even assuming that it were assassinations: In order to kill somebody, he would - without doubt - cut a bloody path through the respective persons security and then it's still virtually impossible to catch another Sith "off guard" (e.g. asleep in his bed or something like that). So in most scenarious, a direct confrontation would be inevitible. Which would give Scourge more than a thousand lightsaber duels. Even assuming he just killed 10 percent of his victims in direct combat, he would have seen by far more lightsaber action than Savage.

Don't even have to entertain the idea of those kills being assassinations as Neph said: Originally posted by Nephthys

Scourge doesn't operate in a clandestine manner. He's a heavy armor warrior, not a steal assassin. When he goes to kill Sajar he walks up to a Republic base with the intent of killing everyone present in the open.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
He did erm and probably not erm
We see Scourge clearly wounded, and based on what exactly?

Sinious
Taken from Ant's RT:

"You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress." ―Scourge (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Based on the fact that Scourge should be put up against guys who can humiliate Savage like Darth Maul, Count Dooku etc.

DarthAnt66
Plus, it's obvious Scourge didn't want to hurt / kill the Hero regardless.

Nephthys
I still think the Swtor Jedi had to have been considerably larger than 10,000 considering the Sith were far into the multi-millions.

Other than that, Nai's response was exceptional.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Taken from Ant's RT:

"You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress." ―Scourge (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Yeah, I've played the game and read the journal before, Sinious. Guess which one clearly shows the HoT in the superior position when combat ends?

Uh, no it really doesn't. It's kind of retarded to think that because you can go up against an Act II HoT, that you can go up against the higher ups in the mythos. Act II HoT isn't even in their prime, and being facerolled by the Emperor isn't a feat. erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
YUh, no it really doesn't. It's kind of retarded to think that because you can go up against an Act II HoT, that you can go up against the higher ups in the mythos.

Seems reasonable to me.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Seems reasonable to me.
/moves faster than blaster fire
/contends with Kenobi in sabers
/able to fight evenly with Ventress before being noticeably Force Sensitive
/utterly destroys Mandalorian Iron
/stronger than Maul in the Force
/TK'ing armies, as well as Kenobi and Skywalker
/defeating some of the most powerful Jedi in history
>can't contend with an Act II HoT who's best feat is defeating Angral

Seems legit.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah, I've played the game and read the journal before, Sinious. Guess which one clearly shows the HoT in the superior position when combat ends?

Yeah and the quote and the dialogue between them explains why he faked losing. Am I missing something here? HoT has other feats as I'm sure you know. His Act II incarnation is relatively close to his endgame and even at the earlier stages of the game, HoT got great feats.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
/moves faster than blaster fire
/contends with Kenobi in sabers
/able to fight evenly with Ventress before being noticeably Force Sensitive
/utterly destroys Mandalorian Iron
/stronger than Maul in the Force
/TK'ing armies, as well as Kenobi and Skywalker
/defeating some of the most powerful Jedi in history
>can't contend with an Act II HoT who's best feat is defeating Angral

Seems legit.

Savage also failed to defeat Kenobi even with the aid of his brother. Like I sad, TCW duels are mad inconsistent. Also when did he evenly fight Ventress before being noticeably force sensitive?
LOL @ Savage > Maul in the force.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah and the quote and the dialogue between them explains why he faked losing. Am I missing something here?

At no point does he ever say he faked losing. Those are all assumptions you, and most of the TOR fanbase, made up to keep Scourge in a high position even in light of the fact that he has nothing to support this high position buy

Literally nothing the HoT does before facing a weakened Vitiate puts them above Savage. At off his greatest feats are from Corellia onwards, and nothing done before then is "a great feat," in comparison to what Savage has done. Even then, the HoT and most of the TOR protags aren't far above the likes of Maul or Dooku until Oricon/Forged Alliances. You still haven't given me anything that shows how powerful the HoT is supposed to be prior to this besides, "Well it's the HoT, so," and considering most of Act II is spent killing randoms and on-Force Sensitives, even entertaining that notion is incredibly generous.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Savage also failed to defeat Kenobi even with the aid of his brother. Like I sad, TCW duels are mad inconsistent. Also when did he evenly fight Ventress before being noticeably force sensitive?
LOL @ Savage > Maul in the force.
Savage also defeated Kenobi one on one, and he fought Ventress hand to hand. I like how it's okay for say DE Luke, Exar Kun, or hell even the HoT, to be inconsistent, but not things like Savage Oppress. And Savage was confirmed more powerful than Maul in the Force, so...

Nargaroth
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Savage also defeated Kenobi one on one, and he fought Ventress hand to hand. And Savage was confirmed more powerful than Maul in the Force, so...

Where?

Sinious
Well Scourge says he could've killed him on Quesh and considering everything else he said is true, I have no reason to think this is a lie. Not to mention, Scourge clearly doesn't want to kill HoT. So fighting HoT without trying to kill him but also make it realistic in the eyes of the Emperor? That actually sounds harder than fighting him all out. thumb up

For HoT's achievements:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice


Then HoT is stated multiple times to be the greatest living Jedi, including by Scourge himself. Savage isn't on par with even the Barsen'thor, he ain't on the Hero's level.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Savage also defeated Kenobi one on one, hence the inconsistency. Where Ventress made him her ***** lol Originally posted by Nargaroth
Where?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
hence the inconsistency.

So basically dodging the point? Could it be that Savage might have actually improved during that time?

Uh, no, no she didn't; her winning doesn't mean Savage didn't fight evenly. erm And again, this is clearly before Savage was amped.

As for Savage being more powerful than Maul, that's something Dooku says. Whether you think Savage actually reached that level is more a matter of opinion, but given the fact Savage has plenty of feats to back up the claim, where as Maul has inferior showings in the Force all around, I'm going to go with yes.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then HoT is stated multiple times to be the greatest living Jedi, including by Scourge himself. Savage isn't on par with even the Barsen'thor, he ain't on the Hero's level.
Given that the Baresen'thor is also stated to be the greatest living Jedi from the main story on, the HoT is told this as soon as they finish Tython with not a single showing to prove it, that you still have given nothing as to why an Act II HoT or Barsen'thor is superior to Savage besides, "This person said so," and that your entire argument is built on hype and hype alone, I'm going to keep my opinions.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Well Scourge says he could've killed him on Quesh and considering everything else he said is true, I have no reason to think this is a lie.

Assuming that the HoT grows nil from Quesh on, which isn't true by the way,

And that sounds like a bunch of assumptions, with zero evidence to back them up.

What is there that Savage can't actually do. I don't need you to link me Neph's respect thread. I've played the Knight's story enough times, thanks.

Nai
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
/moves faster than blaster fire


So he's on one level with TPM!Kenobi and SotE!Luke? thumb up



If by "contending" you mean "losing an arm when fighting Kenobi together with his brother", then you would have a point.



Laughable.

0npapMYNSvI

Ventress totally destroys him. It's not even a contest.



Where?



Likewise completely laughable.



"Armies"? Once again: Where? And since I've still not seen a TK attack being "resisted", being capable of force pushing Kenobi and Skywalker (or force choking Ventress and Dooku) is not that impressive.



Once more: Where?



Is that the same Angral who once did take it on him to attack Darth Baras in a direct confrontation? Just asking.

Nephthys
When is the Baresen'thor stated to be the greatest living Jedi?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nai
So he's on one level with TPM!Kenobi and SotE!Luke? thumb up

Exactly what I said. Not that being comparable to them is somehow an insult.

No, I mean WmBL_RF1DNk
But it's cool how you completely ignore that both Maul and Savage were at a disadvantage because of tight spaces.

She totally destroyed him or she defeated him after fighting for over a minute and a half, which incase you didn't know, is a long time.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114474/3766606-savage+breaks+out+of+prison+cell.gif

Also completely supported.

O'm sure you seen Savage's respect thread. Also, yeah, both of those things are extremely impressive.

On Felucia, not to mention with Kun. Fighting off Ventress and Dooku simultaneous, as well as Anakin and Obi-Wan is extremely impressive. But, as per the usual, we ignore that because it isn't given TOR levels of hype.


It's the same Darth Angral that got shot at by Baras in one panel and then they both stopped fighting. Super impressive, especially considering the numerous time a pre-amped Baras claimed he was almost destroyed.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
When is the Baresen'thor stated to be the greatest living Jedi?
Seconds after landing on Tython.

Nephthys
Pretty sure that's not true.

Nai
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Exactly what I said. Not that being comparable to them is somehow an insult.


Yes. Luke between ESB and ROTJ is most certainly a powerhouse in the great scheme of things.



Oh, yes. Kenobi is clearly going all out on Savage together with Anakin, instead of just fighting defensively. We know what happened, when Kenobi does go all out on Savage and Maul. In case you need a reminder: He cuts Savage's arm off.



She does so without using the Force, when she could probably have choked him out or pushed him around to k.o. him in seconds. And their actual "fight" lasts about 40 seconds, which isn't that long, incase you didn't know.



Is that him easily destroying Mandalorian glass, because the "iron" seems to be pretty much undamaged. wink



You mean like your idea that Savage is more powerful than Maul? Which just goes, well, against pretty much everything we saw on screen?



I don't read "respect threads" since they are just pointless collections of random feats, usually without one ounce of reasoning or thinking presented within. I've better things to do with my time. That being said, since you're prone to exeggerating Savage's feat, the best he has done with TK is pushing a group of soldiers around, which doesn't translate into "an army".

And it would be impressive, if one of them had offered some kind of defense against the TK attack, which just didn't happen.



Nope. We don't ignore it, because the "hype" is missing. We just judge it differently because you are ignoring context.

First: Felucia? Kun? Either I did miss something in SW canon or merely the drugs you're taking. The most impressive kill of Savage - to my knowledge - is Adi Gallia. And I'm already stretching the word "impressive" there, since she has pretty much nothing to offer next to her position as Jedi Council Member.

He attacks Dooku and Ventress when both of them aren't really expecting it and does nothing but putting them on their asses with brute strenghts for two seconds before the retaliation sends him flying through the room. And this while Ventress and Dooku were on different sides already. Had they teamed up, they would have destroyed Savage, given that Dooku alone could easily dominate him in combat while fending Ventress off at the same time.

Likewise we already know that Kenobi alone is more than a match for Savage, given that he can literally disarm him, while having to defend himself against Maul at the same time. That you have to excuse that by stating the two brothers did suffer from a disadvantage because of limited space is pretty much laughable.

So, I'm very sorry, but Savage in his regular shape is below Kenobi and he simply lacks when it comes to actual lightsaber skill or force mastery. He is just a brute that can some stuff that seems impressive - when he is angry (aka boosted by the Dark Side) on every given sunday.



I wonder how they managed to get that "Darth" title, considering they just seem to be some random nobodies not worth anybodies attention. roll eyes (sarcastic) And yes: Baras "claims" to have been "almost destroyed" (read: defeated in combat) by some Jedi at least 10 years prior to the events depicted in SW:ToR. I bet he just remained in that particular shape he had back then, not gaining knowledge or power. God forbid.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So basically dodging the point? Could it be that Savage might have actually improved during that time? Highly doubt it. Savage is not a Kenobi level duelist bro.
She didn't just win, she kicked his ass lol

If it was true, Savage wouldn't bow to his brother. It is clear that he wants to be equals with him.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Assuming that the HoT grows nil from Quesh on, which isn't true by the way, He does, but Scourge cut the fight before either side got the upper hand. I don't think its reaching to call it a stalemate. In fact, I see this as something to wank HoT, not Scourge. Nai's explanation on how impressive Scourge is pretty accurate and HoT almost defeating him in such an early age is rather impressive.
What? Do you need me to show you evidence on this? Scourge's entire life was spent on waiting for the face he saw in the vision and he had to make it look like he lost so Vitiate doesn't get annoyed. This would be clear to a 5 years old child dude. Stalemating Scourge rolling on floor laughing

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Where did I ever compare that version of Scourge to the game one? And no, he wasn't particularly impressive in the novel.
During those times, Lord Scourge was in 'learning' phase; he is in the process of understanding his talents and acquiring new ones. However, at the end of his story-arc in the novel, Lord Scourge is implied to have addressed some of his shortcomings and defeated two Imperial Guard members (including the leader) simultaneously; this demonstration of combat skill and tactical ability is undoubtedly impressive and it shows that Lord Scourge is becoming a heavy hitter.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Where's the part that says the Emperor amped him anyway?
This is mentioned in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In the end, it's down to feats, where Nyriss is just Scourge's superior. 300 years of training and experience doesn't change that. Killing numerous unknowns doesn't change that either. Show me what implies SWTOR Scourge is capable of doing what Nyriss did to novel Scourge and Surik at same time. Because he wasn't able to beat the HoT, who, as of Act II, I frankly don't see doing what Nyriss did.
I am sorry but this makes no sense.

Feats are certainly important and make it easier for the reader to evaluate a character's ability in different situations. However, additional details are equally important to gauge a character's ability such as accomplishments and reputation.

Q: How do we know that Revan became the most powerful Jedi of the Order?
A: His reputation.

Lord Scourge transitioned into the Emperor's Wrath; a position reserved for the greatest warrior of the Empire. A position which is extremely demanding in all aspects. Experience gained from this position would be invaluable and helped Lord Scourge in developing new abilities and he had ample time to hone all of his abilities to perfection. Characters grow and change with passage of time. Lord Scourge emerged as one of the most powerful Sith in the history of the Empire. This logically implies that he is among the best in galactic history as well; his sheer kill-count lends credibility to his reputation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And none of this shows that Scourge would fodderize Savage, either.
He would.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Reputation potentially spread by the Emperor or reputation based on him killing select powerful beings in unidentified (and thus potentially clandestine) ways. So it's not baseless reputation, but hardly beyond Savage either.
Savage Opress is Emperor's Wrath tier? Give me a break.

Emperor's backing may have discouraged some from challenging the Emperor's Wrath but many did and guess what? They died. Sith tend to be ambitious and as they grow in power, their boldness increases accordingly. The Emperor's Wrath have killed 1000 Sith; this is a huge number.

The Emperor's Wrath is a heavy-weight champion, not a Sith Assassin who would attack an opponent using clandestine tactics. His primary stats are strength and endurance. He uses heavy armor and a shield generator for protection.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As far as objective sources go, I believe it was only stated that the Dark Council was wary of Scourge, which is kind of the same as considering him a threat. Only Sajar outright states the Council was afraid of him, IIRC. And as NewGuy said, the likes of Marr and Jadus seem to be stronger than him and are unlikely to be afraid of him. I'd also expect a number of Nyriss-tier individuals over the years, and whilst Scourge would've grown over the years, I doubt it's by enough of a margin to compensate for the clear disparity shown between him and Nyriss in the novel.
Everybody in the Empire would regard the Emperor's Wrath as a credible threat irrespective of personal strength.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And I know I'll catch flak for this from the TORists, but frankly, Savage is just better than most Dark Councillors anyway.
Yes, you will be ridiculed for this.

Expecting a Sith-trainee to be a match for Dark Council members is far-fetched and incredibly stupid assumption.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Yes, you will be ridiculed for this.

Expecting a Sith-trainee to be a match for Dark Council members is far-fetched and incredibly stupid assumption.

I'm getting a weird sense of Deja Vu here.

Carthage throwback, anyone? Happy Dance

ILS
Savage was a Sith Lord, lel. Or at the very least better than a trainee.

And even if he was a trainee, who gives a shit? That just means a trainee in the PT era is nigh-top tier in SWTOR. Boohoo, dry your tears.

Nai
Originally posted by ILS
Savage was a Sith Lord, lel. Or at the very least better than a trainee.

And even if he was a trainee, who gives a shit? That just means a trainee in the PT era is nigh-top tier in SWTOR. Boohoo, dry your tears.

Apparently, one doesn't need arguments, logic or reason when one has an opinion! thumb up

ILS
Seeing as I quite literally don't have the time to trade thousands of words over this shit anymore, I'm not too hurt over your observation that I posted my opinion. You get good-boy points for being able to read though.

Nai
Originally posted by ILS
Seeing as I quite literally don't have the time to trade thousands of words over this shit anymore, I'm not too hurt over your observation that I posted my opinion. You get good-boy points for being able to read though.

Seeing that you quite literally have the time to make some comments that are entirely irrelevant to the discussion, because of a lack of arguments, one must wonder why you have chosen to hit the reply button at all. To get +1 on the post counter? Just asking. I'm really interested why people post "opinions" on forums (that are usually there to debate, which means "exchange arguments", you know), when they could run a blog instead or update their Facebook status. Seriously. "Savage > Scourge" without any reasoning is also short enough for Twitter. There are so many places on the internet where people can ignore your opinion. Why do you need them to do it here?

wink

And Scourge still destroys Savage with ease. Not even a contest. smile

Sinious
Nai is my new hero tbh.

JKBart
Originally posted by Sinious
Nai is my new hero tbh. Yes, he is truly an hero smile

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