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I know during the Clone Wars there were 10,000 Jedi Knights, were there any other numbers given for other time periods?

Well, during SWTOR it was said there were millions of sith, so if it's true it's likely there were millions of jedi as well. Then in other forums i saw people claiming that PT was the golden era of jedi not because they were more skilled than their ancestors, but because there had never been so many jedi around.

Thing is, there probably isn't millions of Sith around in TOR. Their definitely aren't millions of Jedi.

Didn't the Clone Wars actually have more than 10k, but, like, including Jedi Service Corps and such? I've heard as much as 100k.

During Legacy, the One Sith were 1k to 10k~ range, and the Jedi supposedly fairly similar in number. Less than Clone Wars, certainly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thing is, there probably isn't millions of Sith around in TOR.

Uh? It's stated that there are multiple times?

It's stated exactly once in the in-universe TOR encyclopedia. I see no reason why any army with millions of Force Users can't conquer the Republic, though. And the Empire has been losing this war since Corellia.

2 or 3 times actually.

Also theres 1 reason why the Sith are losing that I can think of. It has something to do with this thread.....

Not the reason given in game, Neph. The Sith are losing because they are killing each other, and there definitely aren't millions of Jedi if the Order is still in shambles. Which it really is.

Sure, but like you said with the numbers they certainly do possess, the Sith should be winning. The reason they aren't is that they don't actually possess a numbers advantage.

"Millions of the galaxies most powerful Sith were considered..."

"But with millions vying for 12 seats...."

"Millions strive to become Sith...."

The Jedi aren't in shambles. Swtore actually states that they're in the middle of a renaissance.

They're in shambles and had to retreat to Tython to the recover. If that's what you call a renaissance, then meh.

Millions strive to become Sith doesn't actually mean there are millions of Sith. Nor does the second quote.

The first quote is the only thing that talks about millions of actual Sith, but as I doubt the Emperor's Hand actually had 13 people go through millions of candidates, in the middle of a war, I'll hold my reservations if that's fine with you. Just doesn't make any logical sense.

And they did recover, after rediscovering a ton of shit on Tython and preparing for the second war.

Logically it does. The number of active Sith is likely far higher than those trying to become Sith at any one point. Even with a miniscule graduation rate the numbers would eclipse the acolytes over time.

And the second quote says that millions pf Sith are competing for the Dark Council seats. So um, yes it does?

You're free to think whatever you want. But I have the quotes to prove you wrong ready.

They are still said to be in shambles at the beginning of the game, a war follows. Doubt that's changed much.

Not when literally every Force Sensitive in the Empire must become an acolyte. Logically that number would always be much higher than those that actually make it.

It just says millions. Doesn't say millions of Sith.

The quotes don't actually prove anything and no number is given, nor does anything in game actually support it. You're free to think what you want as well, but when the Republic hardly has a millions strong army, let alone an army with millions of Jedi, I'll always hold your logic in doubt.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It just says millions. Doesn't say millions of Sith.

Millions of people are trying to become Sith. Those same millions are vying to control the Dark Council. Seems pretty straightforward. That does not mean there are literally millions of Sith running around, something that wasn't even true during the New Sith Wars, when being a Sith was arguably at its easiest.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
They are still said to be in shambles at the beginning of the game, a war follows. Doubt that's changed much.

Not when literally every Force Sensitive in the Empire must become an acolyte. Logically that number would always be much higher than those that actually make it.

The quotes don't actually prove anything and no number is given, nor does anything in game actually support it. You're free to think what you want as well, but when the Republic hardly has a millions strong army, let alone an army with millions of Jedi, I'll always hold your logic in doubt.

Not sure if that's true. At the least you're ignoring that they'd clearly rallied by the end of the game and are leading the Republic to victory. Hardly in shambles. Don't really care though. They can be dinged up pretty bad from the war and still field millions of Jedi.

The amount of time post-academy is far greater than that during training. The cumulative amount in the field after graduation would add up to at least as many competing. As is proven by the quotes.

You are so full of shit. They absolutely prove that there are millions of Sith. They directly state that there are millions of Sith. The number that is given is "millions of mother****ing Sith." There's millions just competing for the Dark Council. Merely the most powerful Sith were considered as Scourge's replacement and it was still millions. Also loads of things support it. There's hundreds of Sith on individual worlds. Individual Darths command legions and armies of Sith. There's entire Sith battalions. The idea that there's just a few thousand is absurd.

Also the idea that the Republic hardly has a millions strong army is insane. The Empire had a millions strong even before their invasion and they had like a few hundred thousand times less of a population. A single unit of Republic troops can be up to 40,000 strong.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Millions of people are trying to become Sith. Those same millions are vying to control the Dark Council. Seems pretty straightforward.

Holy shit. No. No they aren't. Acolytes on Korriban aren't vying for the Dark Council. Holy ****ing shit. Why would you think that was a thing and why are you not more ashamed of yourself right now.

There are billions of Bane essences crying in pain

Still waiting for an actual quote saying millions of Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not sure if that's true. At the least you're ignoring that they'd clearly rallied by the end of the game and are leading the Republic to victory. Hardly in shambles. Don't really care though. They can be dinged up pretty bad from the war and still field millions of Jedi.

Nah, not ignoring it. "Rallied" doesn't exactly mean "busting at the seems" which is what millions of Force users would be. The Order is still broken, but luckily so are the Sith.

Even after that the mortality rate is abysmally high. Sith in the Empire are dying and being replaced constantly.

When literally every Force Sensitive in the Empire is competing to be Sith, and literally every Sith is competing to be on the Dark Council, that doesn't mean millions of Sith are competing at once. Take a chill pill and bring your ten to a two.

Do you know how large the number million actually is and how little of the galaxy the Sith actually control. Even if there is 999 hundred Sith on one planet, which is generous by any stretch of the imagination, the Sith empire would have to be comprised of at least 1,001 planets each with 999 Sith. That's ridiculous. And that's just for one million. Millions, as in plural, it get's even crazier.

Given Pierce's codex entry, most citizens in the Empire join the military at some point, which is why they are even able to challenge the Republic in the first place.


Because the way of the Sith is to rise to power and dominate. That's kind of their entire thing. Everybody wants to be the best and the weak are culled. That's like Sith 101, and pretty much everyone, but you apparently, knows that.

Originally posted by JKBart
There are billions of Bane essences crying in pain

And where do these Bane essences exist? Some form of container, perhaps?

There are billions of Bane essences existing in my waste container that are crucial for the galaxy's existence and are the primal force keeping the universe in balance

Originally posted by JKBart
There are billions of Bane essences existing in my waste container that are crucial for the galaxy's existence and are the primal force keeping the universe in balance

I'm sure more will be added to it as time goes on.

The Bane essences are vital for the galaxy's balance and grow in number as more pain and death occurs on the realm of the living

Then you should go about causing more pain and death.

Probably like 25 - 50,000 during SWTOR, TBH.

Not millions like Neph says, but also not PT's 10,000.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And they did recover, after rediscovering a ton of shit on Tython and preparing for the second war.

Logically it does. The number of active Sith is likely far higher than those trying to become Sith at any one point. Even with a miniscule graduation rate the numbers would eclipse the acolytes over time.


I'd expect there to be a lot of contenders who want to be sith, personally. Sith rule the Empire. Sith is a way out of slavery, to wealth and power. I'd expect there to be hundreds of wannabes for each sith.




Really the question is, if there's millions of full-sith contenders, many times as many as most orders, why, out of such a huge talent pool, are the DC members only as strong as they are?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Probably like 25 - 50,000 during SWTOR, TBH.

Not millions like Neph says, but also not PT's 10,000.
Which seem legit possible. It's very in the realms of possibility, especially in war times that have lasted a few decades. I could even believe in a hundred thousand technical Sith.

A large part of it is, during the war, you wouldn't have Jedi Service Corps, those people just become minor Jedi put in charge of minor things. Because you need every force-using blade you can, and even a weak Jedi can make a good commando team leader.

Not true. Even in TOR, there's a Padawan that is told he'll never be a Jedi Knight because he lacks determination on one task is made permanently removed from the ranks, and you are told that not even every Jedi Knight can lead Republic troops.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not true. Even in TOR, there's a Padawan that is told he'll never be a Jedi Knight because he lacks determination on one task is made permanently removed from the ranks, and you are told that not even every Jedi Knight can lead Republic troops.

Hm, interesting. Guess they still were keeping standards up- unlike the New Sith Wars where they totally would've used that padawan.

Yes, the Jedi did not compromise on their standards during TOR timeline.

The Jedi got the opportunity to make a comeback from Treaty of Coruscant which led to end of hostilities of years.

As for the Sith, they are utterly outnumbered in the Empire (10000 : 1). Moreover, Sith count includes Apprentices, Lords, Specialists and Darths. Not sure if acolytes are considered but they would be among the millions aspiring to become members of the Dark Council at some point in the future.

No, acolytes don't count. It's specifically stated that they're not Sith.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nah, not ignoring it. "Rallied" doesn't exactly mean "busting at the seems" which is what millions of Force users would be. The Order is still broken, but luckily so are the Sith.

Sources state the opposite. There's an entire section in Swtore detailing how the Jedi recovered after the Sack of Coruscant ended the war. It concludes:

"In a time of strife, the Jedi Order has been renewed."

They've rediscovered old teachings, relearned ancient techniques and studied warfare more than the Jedi of the past did. In swtor, Jedi padawans possess combat experience greater than that of republic veterans.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even after that the mortality rate is abysmally high. Sith in the Empire are dying and being replaced constantly.

Yet there are also numerous Sith who make it to old age and last decades in service. As you say, the dying are replaced constantly while the survivors carry on and are joined by more and more like them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When literally every Force Sensitive in the Empire is competing to be Sith, and literally every Sith is competing to be on the Dark Council, that doesn't mean millions of Sith are competing at once. Take a chill pill and bring your ten to a two.

Bollocks. Not every Sith is competing for the Dark Council. That doesn't make sense. The majority of them aren't doing anything to compete for those positions. And acolytes who aren't even Sith yet aren't either. Because that's stupid.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Do you know how large the number million actually is and how little of the galaxy the Sith actually control. Even if there is 999 hundred Sith on one planet, which is generous by any stretch of the imagination, the Sith empire would have to be comprised of at least 1,001 planets each with 999 Sith. That's ridiculous. And that's just for one million. Millions, as in plural, it get's even crazier.

999 hundred? Lol.

Why is that ridiculous? I imagine they have more worlds than just a thousand. They're constantly expanding into the Unknown regions and gained like a third of the galaxy in the first war. In the second war they were losing 3 planets a day. Also there's obviously planets with a disproportionate amount of Sith on them like Korriban and Dromund Kaas.

Regardless, it's true so the logistics don't matter. I like how you can't think of a way to refute the quote so you just complain about it not making sense though.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Given Pierce's codex entry, most citizens in the Empire join the military at some point, which is why they are even able to challenge the Republic in the first place.

Yet they are still "vastly outnumbered" (Hoth Lore), which is why they rely on war droids to supplement their numbers. And like I said, this was before the Empire received rapid growth after it's invasion.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because the way of the Sith is to rise to power and dominate. That's kind of their entire thing. Everybody wants to be the best and the weak are culled. That's like Sith 101, and pretty much everyone, but you apparently, knows that.

Acolytes aren't Sith yet. Hence why it says "millions strive to become Sith", meaning they aren't Sith yet. And they are the absolute furthest position away from a Dark Council seat. "Competing" for a Dark Council seat means that you need to be, you know, actually competing for them. Acolytes are competing just to become Sith in the first place, they're not even in the same solar system as those competing for the highest position achievable in the Empire.

It's like saying that a law student is competing to become a member of the supreme court. Yeah, no. That isn't how that works.

Originally posted by Q99
Really the question is, if there's millions of full-sith contenders, many times as many as most orders, why, out of such a huge talent pool, are the DC members only as strong as they are?

Only as strong as they are? Wut? Dark Council members are among the most powerful Sith in history.

You're assuming that a larger talent pool means there must be multiple Plagueis level force users in there. Beings on that kind of power level only appear in the galaxy once a generation or something. Considering Dooku was pretty much the strongest student Yoda had trained, it's pretty amazing that the Council can support numerous beings on a similar level to him at once.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Probably like 25 - 50,000 during SWTOR, TBH.

Not millions like Neph says, but also not PT's 10,000.

It's hugely illogical to think the Jedi were outnumbered by that large a margin. And still be winning. Their numbers are most likely to be comparable to the Sith.

I think everyone is far more content that with the fact that absolutely no one agrees with you, than vainly trying to make you see reason.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Only as strong as they are? Wut? Dark Council members are among the most powerful Sith in history.

They're strong to be sure, but they're not all that much better than Council members of eras that have 10k or less, and it varies, some of 'em aren't all that strong by their own admission.



Most Dark Council members are good, and while I don't expect Plagueis level, most are... not really once-a-generation talents, not judging by how we decide their matchups. Strong to be sure, but only some can stand up to Dooku, some like Vowrawn are not close to Kolar, let alone Dooku. Mekhis isn't Dooku level, and each of her three successors were weaker than her. Vengean. Decimus.

Which ones are close to Dooku's level? Nox, Thanaton, maybe Jadus and Marr? There are a good number of strong sith in the Empire, but someone Dooku's level is still quite stand-out.

Remember, if there were millions of Sith, then that means the talent pool for each Dark Council slot is about the size of entire Jedi/sith orders from other time frames.

I also put the Sith in the 25,000 - 50,000 range.

You're reasoning is sound and supported by evidence but (clearly) is open to interpretation and defies logic.

To put it another way- If Tyranus, Maul, Wyyrlok, Nihl, and Maladi all wanted council slots at the same time, I'm confident they could get them, with Nihl and Maladi having the most trouble but Dooku and Wyyrlok quickly rising to the top of the council without much doubt or trouble.

Originally posted by Q99
Most Dark Council members are good, and while I don't expect Plagueis level, most are... not really once-a-generation talents, not judging by how we decide their matchups. Strong to be sure, but only some can stand up to Dooku, some like Vowrawn are not close to Kolar, let alone Dooku. Mekhis isn't Dooku level, and each of her three successors were weaker than her. Vengean. Decimus.
- Only some can stand up to Count Dooku?
- Darth Vowrawn is below Agen Kolar?
- Darths Vengean and Decimus are weak?

WTF...

Originally posted by Q99
Which ones are close to Dooku's level? Nox, Thanaton, maybe Jadus and Marr? There are a good number of strong sith in the Empire, but someone Dooku's level is still quite stand-out.

Remember, if there were millions of Sith, then that means the talent pool for each Dark Council slot is about the size of entire Jedi/sith orders from other time frames.
Someone on Count Dooku's level is a stand-out in an Empire which is designed to produce most competent Sith? Seriously?

What is judgement criteria? Collapsing a large cave? Destroying a large statue? These showings prove "nothing."

No disrespect intended for Count Dooku, but your underestimation of TOR era is absolutely unreasonable.

Originally posted by Q99
To put it another way- If Tyranus, Maul, Wyyrlok, Nihl, and Maladi all wanted council slots at the same time, I'm confident they could get them, with Nihl and Maladi having the most trouble but Dooku and Wyyrlok quickly rising to the top of the council without much doubt or trouble.
Right...

Even Darth Thanaton couldn't last a few days on the Dark Council, I am sure these would.

You don't get it. The Empire is a setting where competition is cutthroat and unpredictable happens. Nobody's survival is guaranteed in this setting.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even Darth Thanaton couldn't last a few days on the Dark Council, I am sure these would.
By that logic, at least 90% of the people who have lasted more than a few days on the council wouldn't last more than a few days on the council tbh.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
By that logic, at least 90% of the people who have lasted more than a few days on the council wouldn't last more than a few days on the council tbh.
It is clearly mentioned in the Encyclopedia that many Sith (including Dark Council members) become victims of power struggles. It is a miracle if a Sith Lord lasts decades as a member of the Dark Council.

Darth Thanaton's fate is indicative of the fact that being super-strong or highly skilled duelist is not a guarantee for survival as a member of the Dark Council long-term. There is always someone out there who will take you down at some point.

I am simply trying to curtail Q99's high horse. He assumes that PT/Legacy era individuals are expected to do well in any setting and era. This is far-fetched assumption.

Bannite Sith are specialized, they never faced competition from millions of Sith to prove their worth.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is clearly mentioned in the Encyclopedia that many Sith (including Dark Council members) become victims of power struggles.
Yeah and many of the ones that haven't are less powerful than the people you said couldn't do well since Thanaton didn't.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah and many of the ones that haven't are less powerful than the people you said couldn't do well since Thanaton didn't.
That is your assumption. You cannot prove it since most Dark Council members are poorly explored in the context of capabilities. But those who are explored in a limited way, usually turn out to be just as capable or better.

You think Darth Thanaton was weak? He is implied to be one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. He spent decades honing his talents in the Dark Side and building his power-base. He still became a victim of internal rivalry just like many others.

When competition is cutthroat, you never know who will succeed.

Originally posted by Q99
To put it another way- If Tyranus, Maul, Wyyrlok, Nihl, and Maladi all wanted council slots at the same time, I'm confident they could get them, with Nihl and Maladi having the most trouble but Dooku and Wyyrlok quickly rising to the top of the council without much doubt or trouble. Dooku would be an awesome DC member tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Only some can stand up to Count Dooku?
- Darth Vowrawn is below Agen Kolar?
- Darths Vengean and Decimus are weak?

-Yes. Some Dark Council Members could stand up to Darth Tyranus, but a good number would fall to him.

-In combat? Definitely. He survives a lot on politics and such. Not only did he think the Wrath outmatched him so much it wasn't worth putting up a fight, but the Wrath thought he needed protection from Baras's assassins.

-Weaker than Dooku, yes. That is not the same as being weak on the whole!

Do you think Arkous was Dooku's level? Hadra? Zhorrid?

What have they, or Vengean, or Decimus done to put themselves on Dooku's level aside from being part of the Dark Council?




The Rule of Two is also designed to produce the most competent sith they can.

So are most orders!

There are ToR Sith that surpass Tyranus, but many in the council don't.




Can you elaborate? You're quite incredulous but that's not the same as an argument establishing them as stronger.

And no, "the TOR Empire was a cutthroat environment encouraged to make strong sith," is not sufficient.



Because he had the poor fortune of running afoul Darth Nox, who was one of the strongest Sith of the Empire, Council or otherwise, and .

Other Dark Council members expressed surprise that Thanaton fell, and several were quite impressed with his power.

Thanaton has greater feats than a lot of council members.



Well, yes, as Thanatons' death showed, but the end result did not produce that many more strong sith than other times. There were still Sith who were not all that powerful who got into the Dark Council- while Thanaton managed to die fast despite his power, many of the revolving door Dark Councilors simply were not all that strong.

The tendency for Dark Councilors to die to high-potential apprentices is quite noteworthy, a lot have fallen for that reason, before said apprentices reach their prime. The future Wrath killed Vengean, back when the Wrath was still a fair bit weaker than Baras. Baras was without a doubt a good deal stronger than Vengean, and while he didn't last super long himself due to the Wrath, it says a lot that someone definitely weaker than Baras or the Wrath lasted some time.


The mere fact that there's so much variance and some who clearly aren't suitable for the slots says a lot- with such a huge talent pool, you'd expect that either they'd have no problem with filling 12 slots with badasses strong enough to only occasionally die, or that all 12 slots would constantly be under threat because there's so many competitors. Instead, you tend to have some slots rotate weak candidates repeatedly, and others sit in their chairs for decades without worry.

Originally posted by Q99
The Rule of Two is also designed to produce the most competent sith they can.
every member is trained to be a Dark Lord and a master of everything, "thirty fit to be Sith in a millenium rather than the tens of thousands of Jedi" and all that.

To clarify something- The TOR Dark Council at full is probably the strongest Sith/Jedi council we know on the whole, or at least in contention. Which is what we'd expect considering how much it has going for it, how many sith compete for it.

However, it is not full of nothing but people that'd stand at the top of other councils, it is not head and shoulders above other strong councils, and is not what I'd expect of a group that literally had orders of magnitudes more competitors for the role than others.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
every member is trained to be a Dark Lord and a master of everything, "thirty fit to be Sith in a millenium rather than the tens of thousands of Jedi" and all that.

Right. They find the single highest potential person they can, and then spend more time and effort on that one person than any full order gives (decades, usually), because it's understood that single person must reach the top tiers or die trying.

A few days? Wasn't Thanaton on the Council for like a year?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A few days? Wasn't Thanaton on the Council for like a year?

*Checks*

It's hard to check the full length, but less than a year, certainly more than days.

Originally posted by Q99
*Checks*

It's hard to check the full length, but less than a year, certainly more than days.
Nah, he was on the Council at the end of Act II. That's definitely over a year, at least.

Originally posted by Q99
They're strong to be sure, but they're not all that much better than Council members of eras that have 10k or less, and it varies, some of 'em aren't all that strong by their own admission.

You're still making the mistake of thinking that the upper level of talent increases with a larger talent pool. It doesn't necessarily, it just increases the size in which talent can be found. You're not going to find a dozen Dooku level force users no matter how large the pool since there's only a few on that level born in the entire galaxy every generation.

The one's that aren't strong are usually so for a reason.

Originally posted by Q99
Most Dark Council members are good, and while I don't expect Plagueis level, most are... not really once-a-generation talents, not judging by how we decide their matchups. Strong to be sure, but only some can stand up to Dooku, some like Vowrawn are not close to Kolar, let alone Dooku. Mekhis isn't Dooku level, and each of her three successors were weaker than her. Vengean. Decimus.

Vowrawn was a politician and master manipulator. Probably why he was in charge of the Ministry of Logistics. Mekhis was a genius inventor. That's why she was in charge of science and technology. It's not like Coleman Trebor wasn't a thing as well. Also you didn't mention her but Zhorrid wasn't a legit member. She was brought on because they thought she knew Jadus' secrets which they needed and when it became clear she didn't she got dunked on.

Also it's unfair to judge Councillors when we don't actually have a way to gauge their abilities. Some only get gameplay feats which are invalid. Can't exactly say Vengean sucks when he gets killed in gameplay while fighting 3 high level combatants at once, one of which is the Wrath. Decimus is featless so we cant' point to anything to say that he's a mediocre talent. That applies to others like Hadra etc.

Originally posted by Q99
Which ones are close to Dooku's level? Nox, Thanaton, maybe Jadus and Marr? There are a good number of strong sith in the Empire, but someone Dooku's level is still quite stand-out.

Baras, Nyriss and those two Sith who blew up the Citadel just by fighting. Also possibly that one guy you fight in the Invasion of Korriban.

Originally posted by Q99
Remember, if there were millions of Sith, then that means the talent pool for each Dark Council slot is about the size of entire Jedi/sith orders from other time frames.

Doesn't make a difference imo. And personally, when we actually do see Dark Council members in action, they're higher quality than Jedi Council's of other generations.

I don't understand why it's so hard to believe some dark councilors are below the likes of kolar. This guy, along with Tiin, Fist, Bulq etc were all called legendary duelist, if there are too many "kolars" around, then this guys can't be considered legendary anymore

There's a flaw in that argument- why are you assuming TOR to be that much higher than everyone else if you're arguing no-one can know?

And... we do, in fact, have some cross-era stuff. There are characters that move era to era. We know how Revan compares to TOR, and some Sith Empire people. We also see Sith Empire people compare with Legacy people, who we see compare with Clone Wars era people. Celeste Morne has traveled through 3 different eras and met a sith spirit from a 4th.

We are not in ignorance of how power relates era to era, at least in generalities.

The fact that Revan is definitely a good deal stronger than most Dark Councilors says a lot- strong sith from other eras remain strong in the TOR era.




I get the impression because he flat-out goes, "Whelp, I've got no chance here. Make it quick, but no beheading, plez," when faced with the wrath-in-training.

He himself admits it. Sure, he can likely hold his own against many fights, but no, his primary power is his brains and policies.



Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. But view it as likely? Yes. Dooku's fought with Yoda and Windu and Anakin, all immensely powerful individuals, and shown himself to be powerful and skilled in return.



But 'very good' is not in question. Agen Kolar is very good. Even Piell is very good.

You're the one insisting that the Dark Council is full of Dooku level people.





So? They gained experience through greater training. That doesn't mean weaker.



Yes necessarily. We're talking about what they aim for here. With rare exception like the Brotherhood of Darkness, which was noted for not pursuing the secrets of the dark side very hard, but the Rule of Two, One Sith, Sith Empire, Hundred Years Darkness, all of these pursued dark knowledge with a passion with the intention of making powerful sith.

Also, you raise the cutthroat environment thing- This means a lot of promising high-potential sith are killed while they're still learning to avoid becoming a threat. That is often a minus.



Am I to take your word that he's not?

Most of the Sith have either inferior showings to his or just less showings period on one hand.

On the other, we have a legendary Jedi/Sith who has lived up to his legend most definitely.

Or in other words, you are asking me to assume that these Dark Councilors are equal or better based on position alone- when the feats



Originally posted by Nephthys
You're still making the mistake of thinking that the upper level of talent increases with a larger talent pool. It doesn't necessarily, it just increases the size in which talent can be found. You're not going to find a dozen Dooku level force users no matter how large the pool since there's only a few on that level born in the entire galaxy every generation.

That's how it normally works in real life, a larger talent pool finds more high-talent individuals.

And it's not just Dooku-levels, it's that some in the council are relatively unimpressive. You'd expect the Council to be bunched up with the best level that existed in quantity.

Unless the other orders really are finding the majority of the council-level talents in the galaxy already (which strikes me as unlikely considering how they work), and larger orders just mean more average Jedi/Sith.




Ok, 4 more of the tier, some of who were from a couple centuries earlier.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Only some can stand up to Count Dooku?
- Darth Vowrawn is below Agen Kolar?


Uh, yeah @ both. And even though he is a Darth, Kolar >.

Originally posted by Q99
There's a flaw in that argument- why are you assuming TOR to be that much higher than everyone else if you're arguing no-one can know?
Every era have witnessed quality individuals. Never doubted this.

However, you should understand that reconstituted ancient Sith Empire surpassed its predecessors in all aspects (including in the aspect of quality of Sith in general). This is clearly implied in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents the ancient Sith at their finest; no ifs and buts in this case. Even Darth Traya admitted her inferiority to ancient Sith and feared that they will reemerge at some point.

Originally posted by Q99
And... we do, in fact, have some cross-era stuff. There are characters that move era to era. We know how Revan compares to TOR, and some Sith Empire people. We also see Sith Empire people compare with Legacy people, who we see compare with Clone Wars era people. Celeste Morne has traveled through 3 different eras and met a sith spirit from a 4th.

We are not in ignorance of how power relates era to era, at least in generalities.
Revan overshadowed everybody in his era and is officially touted as the most powerful Jedi in galactic history. Therefore, it doesn't surprises me that he was stronger then most in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire as well. Heck, Chris Avellone revealed to a member of this community in a private conversation that Revan could defeat the duo of Meetra Surik and Darth Traya in a confrontation as well. He is that good.

In short, Revan eclipses most in the saga; forget an era.

---

Celeste Morne isn't a powerhouse. She is average.

Originally posted by Q99
The fact that Revan is definitely a good deal stronger than most Dark Councilors says a lot- strong sith from other eras remain strong in the TOR era.
Revan is in the league of Yoda so I am not surprised.

Do you think Count Dooku is?

Originally posted by Q99
I get the impression because he flat-out goes, "Whelp, I've got no chance here. Make it quick, but no beheading, plez," when faced with the wrath-in-training.

He himself admits it. Sure, he can likely hold his own against many fights, but no, his primary power is his brains and policies.
You overlooked an entire explanation in my earlier response, my friend.

Darth Vowrawn is OLD during the times we witness him in action; he is no longer in his prime; he is logically a mere shadow of his former-self. His situation is similar to that of Darth Xedrix during the events of the novel.

Originally posted by Q99
Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. But view it as likely? Yes. Dooku's fought with Yoda and Windu and Anakin, all immensely powerful individuals, and shown himself to be powerful and skilled in return.
Yoda was not going all-out against Count Dooku. If he had, this fight would have ended differently. Yoda had a soft spot for Count Dooku.

Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker are certainly among the strongest Jedi of their era. And the latter eventually defeated Count Dooku in a confrontation.

Besides, contending with the likes of Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker isn't such a big deal. Mother Talzin and Darth Maul have contended with Mace Windu while Obi-Wan Kenobi, barriss Offee, Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress have contended with Anakin Skywalker . Count Dooku isn't special in this regard.

Originally posted by Q99
But 'very good' is not in question. Agen Kolar is very good. Even Piell is very good.

You're the one insisting that the Dark Council is full of Dooku level people.
Agen Kolar is very good in dueling skills. Don't know about Piell.

Yes, Dark Councilors would be in the league of Count Dooku on average. Many would be stronger as well.

Originally posted by Q99
So? They gained experience through greater training. That doesn't mean weaker.
Greater training?

Ancient Sith had to compete with many individuals to prove their mettle. They were also subjected to brutal conditions for survival. I don't think they had inferior training.

In-fact, ancient Sith pioneered and defined Sith training standards. Bannite Sith took cues from ancient teachings. Even the likes of Darth Plagueis were in search of ancient sources of information about Sith related matters to gain superior understanding of the Dark Side.

Your favorite One Sith also took cues from ancient Sith to improve themselves and their standards.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes necessarily. We're talking about what they aim for here. With rare exception like the Brotherhood of Darkness, which was noted for not pursuing the secrets of the dark side very hard, but the Rule of Two, One Sith, Sith Empire, Hundred Years Darkness, all of these pursued dark knowledge with a passion with the intention of making powerful sith.
See above.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, you raise the cutthroat environment thing- This means a lot of promising high-potential sith are killed while they're still learning to avoid becoming a threat. That is often a minus.
Again:

The Empire is actually designed to cull the weak from its ranks. This is why harsh trials are compulsory for any individual to become a Sith but the challenges do not end here. A Sith is expected to perform and do something grand to qualify for higher ranks. The Empire also gives the Sith an opportunity to challenge his rival in a fair manner via Kaggath system. Even the Emperor can be directly challenged via the Kaggath system. However, since multiple powerful Sith co-exist in the Empire who cannot be easily killed, the Sith often resort to schemes and politics to overcome their rivals.

You may get the impression that the Empire suffers in quality due to cutthroat competition but this is not the case. Empire is never short on capable Sith in the hour of need.

Originally posted by Q99
Am I to take your word that he's not?

Most of the Sith have either inferior showings to his or just less showings period on one hand.

On the other, we have a legendary Jedi/Sith who has lived up to his legend most definitely.

Or in other words, you are asking me to assume that these Dark Councilors are equal or better based on position alone- when the feats
1. Your stance isn't convincing.

2. And this is my point since the beginning. We don't know how so many Sith in the Empire stack up to the likes of Count Dooku due to extremely limited showings and content. It is officially stated that every Sith in the Empire is a powerful individual but we don't know much about their abilities.

We have these two articles at maximum:

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior
http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

3. And who is this? Revan?

4. My point is that it is reasonable to expect from the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire to produce many Count Dooku level and/or superior Sith in each era because this Empire is designed to produce highest quality Sith possible. Even if there are 200 Count Dooku level and/or superior Sith in the Empire in each era, it is still a small number holistically.