Krona Vs DCnU Anti-Monitor

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Zack M
The Guardian or Monitor?


http://i60.tinypic.com/308wr3l.jpg

vs

http://i57.tinypic.com/10p82go.jpg

Stoic
DC is filled with inconsistencies though. Darkseid didn't face a threat as large as COIE AM. AM has been nerfed. Krona is up and down across the board.

Zack M
Originally posted by Stoic
DC is filled with inconsistencies though. Darkseid didn't face a threat as large as COIE AM. AM has been nerfed. Krona is up and down across the board.

That's JLA/AVENGERS Krona. The one who beat down Galactus. AM has the power of several universes in him. Same as Krona iirc.

Galan007
Which version of Krona?

Zack M
The one who took down Galactus

RadZoa
Wut?

Galan007
As of now, I'd probably go with AM. There's really no reason I can think of that would render Krona immune to the ALE.

carver9
Anti Monitor did nothing. I'm giving this to Krono.

Galan007
^ DCnU AM has the ALE.

He effortlessly took control of a universal abstract(Black Racer/Death), merged it with Flash(whom he also took control of), and used this new Death amalgam to seemingly kill Darkseid.

Stoic
Originally posted by Galan007
^ DCnU AM has the ALE.

He effortlessly took control of a universal abstract(Black Racer/Death), merged it with Flash(whom he also took control of), and used this new Death amalgam to seemingly kill Darkseid.


Krona was resisting the IG, and several other weapons of unimaginable power.

Galan007
Please post a scan of Krona directly resisting the IG.

carver9
Originally posted by Galan007
^ DCnU AM has the ALE.

He effortlessly took control of a universal abstract(Black Racer/Death), merged it with Flash(whom he also took control of), and used this new Death amalgam to seemingly kill Darkseid.

What has the Ale done though?

Universal Abstract Black Racer? Come on Galan, what are you basing this off of? He mixed his power with Black Racer charge attack and killed Darkseid. AM doesn't have the fts.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
What has the Ale done though?

Universal Abstract Black Racer? Come on Galan, what are you basing this off of? He mixed his power with Black Racer charge attack and killed Darkseid. AM doesn't have the fts. In every previous DC continuity, Black Racer=a universal aspect of Death. There is no indication that he's a lesser entity in the DCnU.

In fact, given that Darkseid himself is significantly more powerful in the DCnU than he's ever been depicted in the past(AM fed on entire universes prior to even attempting to confront him), yet his dues ex machina 'weapon' against AM was still the Black Racer/Death, I'd say BR is likely an even greater force than we've seen in the past.

Stoic
Originally posted by Galan007
Please post a scan of Krona directly resisting the IG.

I don't have the time to, or ability to go through those books again. Perhaps I've forgotten, but I was under the impression that more than just the IG was needed to put a stop to Krona's schemes of learning the answers that he sought after.

Galan007
Krona never directly resisted the items' power. In fact, said items were ultimately responsible for his downfall:
http://i.imgur.com/0RHjCmG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AMrdpD4.jpg

psycho gundam
Hawkeye kills them both

Galan007
http://s16.postimg.org/9onb6cbz9/4004528_avengers_jeremy_renner_nod.gif

Stoic
Originally posted by Galan007
Krona never directly resisted the items' power. In fact, said items were ultimately responsible for his downfall:
http://i.imgur.com/0RHjCmG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AMrdpD4.jpg

Thanks for the correction, but it still took all of those items to take him down. If it would have only taken the IG to stop him the rest of the items would have been redundant right? All the same, he had Two very powerful top level Abstracts subdued. How does the ALE even compare?

Galan007
The reaction that resulted from all of those items becoming unstable is what took Krona down, yes. However, that certainly doesn't mean all of those items' collective energies were required just to defeat him. For example: if Lex Luthor were killed by a multiversal collapse, that doesn't mean it requires a minimum of multiverse-busting energy to kill him.

You're trying to impose a reverse no-limits fallacy, lol.


Anywho, the ALE can give its master control over nearly all sentient beings--ergo AM effortlessly taking control of Death itself, and turning it against Darkseid... And despite his immense power, absolutely nothing indicates that Krona would be immune to the ALE's effects.

SquallX
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Hawkeye kills them both

Honestly, this is why i hate when weak characters like Hawkeye/Green Arrow, as a matter of fact any weak characters are added in a conflict that deals with powerful beings like this.

Don't get me wrong, having said characters in a advice giving roles is fine and all, but once those characters enters the battlefield, this is when the bad guy start to lose. A character like Chrona or Darkseid in Final Crisis as a ex. should just look, or wave there hands in these characters Green Arrow/Batman/Hawkeye direction is enough to kill them. But yet, somehow there able to drop these powerful deities like nothing.

Ex. Final Crisis. No way you spin it that Batman should have been able to hit Darkseid with that Bullet. The story was made that Darkseid magically wasn't fast enough to drop to the ground, or have one of his Omega Beams hit the bullet while the other kills Batman.

Rants over. Never read that crossover, is it a good read?

Galan007
Originally posted by SquallX
Never read that crossover, is it a good read? Lol, no. It's horrible.

SquallX
Thanks, just saved me some money.

Stoic
Originally posted by Galan007
The reaction that resulted from all of those items becoming unstable is what took Krona down, yes. However, that certainly doesn't mean all of those items' collective energies were required just to defeat him. For example: if Lex Luthor were killed by a multiversal collapse, that doesn't mean it requires a minimum of multiverse-busting energy to kill him.

You're trying to impose a reverse no-limits fallacy, lol.


Anywho, the ALE can give its master control over nearly all sentient beings--ergo AM effortlessly taking control of Death itself, and turning it against Darkseid... And despite his immense power, absolutely nothing indicates that Krona would be immune to the ALE's effects.


A reverse No Limits Fallacy? Isn't that what you've just done? You're stating that the because the ALE was capable of subduing Death, that no being is capable of resisting its power. Like I said, if the IG were the only item needed, it was overkill to seek out any of the others. It's not like saying that Lex died when the multiverse imploded and it took that amount of power to remove him from existence in any way. What you've attempted was to oversimplify things. Krona was that powerful, and he was destroying universes to find out the answer to his question. He actually had Eternity and Infinity in his grasp. How can you make it seem like enthralling Death would actually be on a larger scale? If anything the best answer to this thread is a resounding I couldn't begin to tell you who would win.

Galan007
Originally posted by Stoic
A reverse No Limits Fallacy? Isn't that what you've just done? You're stating that the because the ALE was capable of subduing Death, that no being is capable of resisting its power. Like I said, if the IG were the only item needed, it was overkill to seek out any of the others. It's not like saying that Lex died when the multiverse imploded and it took that amount of power to remove him from existence in any way. What you've attempted was to oversimplify things. Krona was that powerful, and he was destroying universes to find out the answer to his question. He actually had Eternity and Infinity in his grasp. How can you make it seem like enthralling Death would actually be on a larger scale? If anything the best answer to this thread is a resounding I couldn't begin to tell you who would win. You don't seem to understand.

It was NEVER so much as alluded to that the cumulative power of all those items was required to defeat Krona. That just happened to be the energy that was released when Hawkeye destroyed Krona's tech. Again: if Lex Luthor were killed by a multiversal collapse, that doesn't mean it requires a minimum of multiverse-busting energy to kill him... Yet by your line of 'logic', that's exactly what it would mean. srsly

You also don't seem to understand what the ALE is. At all. It enabled AM to control an abstract entity: Death. That's what it does--think the Mind Gem+Soul Gem on steroids. Conversely, this version of Krona has NO showings which suggest he'd be immune to the ALE's effects. None. THAT'S the difference. The scale/scope of Krona's raw power is irrelevant.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, no. It's horrible.
JLA/Avengers was excellent.

erm

Galan007
Lucifer, Sandman, All-Star Superman, Kingdom Come... Those are "excellent." Mentioning JLA/Avengers in the same breath as those is lulz-worthy. It had a few cool moments, but they certainly weren't enough to make up for the rest of the garbage generated in that crossover. thumb up

Stoic
Originally posted by Galan007
You don't seem to understand.

It was NEVER so much as alluded to that the cumulative power of all those items was required to defeat Krona. That just happened to be the energy that was released when Hawkeye destroyed Krona's tech. Again: if Lex Luthor were killed by a multiversal collapse, that doesn't mean it requires a minimum of multiverse-busting energy to kill him... Yet by your line of 'logic', that's exactly what it would mean. srsly

You also don't seem to understand what the ALE is. At all. It enabled AM to control an abstract entity: Death. That's what it does--think the Mind Gem+Soul Gem on steroids. Conversely, this version of Krona has NO showings which suggest he'd be immune to the ALE's effects. None. THAT'S the difference. The scale/scope of Krona's raw power is irrelevant.

We all have our opinions. You're certainly entitled to yours. I fail to see any evidence proving that one would defeat the other. If the other items weren't needed they wouldn't have been included.

the Darkone
Galan which issues did darksied die in the recent darksied anti monitor war??

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007
Krona never directly resisted the items' power. In fact, said items were ultimately responsible for his downfall:

thumb up Huge myth which lingered around us for years ... busted!
I only noticed that, this year myself good friend during a debate.

There's also another detail I overlooked for years:

I've seen some use the Superman-Thor encounter as some reason to gauge them, people laugh at Supes punching Thor to sleep.
But what many don't realize is that the Marvel heroes were weaker within the DC reality.
... except for Wanda, who was amped by DC's chaos magic, but at the cost of her life-force getting drained.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Stoic

Krona was that powerful, He actually had Eternity and Infinity in his grasp.

How can you make it seem like enthralling Death would actually be on a larger scale?
Stoic, good friend, Krona never was a threat to Eternity, or Infinity who wasn't even part of the story.

Krona only affected Eternity and Kismet via the 12 items.

Hilarious, when the IG alone has stomped Eternity in one move.

Stoic
Originally posted by Mr Master
Stoic, good friend, Krona never was a threat to Eternity, or Infinity who wasn't even part of the story.

Krona only affected Eternity and Kismet via the 12 items.

Hilarious, when the IG alone has stomped Eternity in one move.

Okay I have to go back and re-read those books. I could have sworn that Krona had the power to casually wipe out universes like a normal person would wreck a living room with a sledge hammer? I'll go back and check it out when I have the time. Also what gave you the idea that the Marvel characters were weakened? I missed that as well. Is there some way to prove this claim? If true that wouldn't bode well for Superman's apparent victory over Thor.

carver9
Originally posted by Galan007
In every previous DC continuity, Black Racer=a universal aspect of Death. There is no indication that he's a lesser entity in the DCnU.

In fact, given that Darkseid himself is significantly more powerful in the DCnU than he's ever been depicted in the past(AM fed on entire universes prior to even attempting to confront him), yet his dues ex machina 'weapon' against AM was still the Black Racer/Death, I'd say BR is likely an even greater force than we've seen in the past.

Sigh...we both know it doesn't work like this Galan.

That's Darkseid. We do not share fts or make assumptions based off what another character has done.

Sigh...one of the Universes he supposedly consumed still had planets and star. Earth was shattered. A lot of speculation pointed towards him consuming universes. Then it was done off panel. Most likely hyper bole.

Galan007
Originally posted by the Darkone
Galan which issues did darksied die in the recent darksied anti monitor war?? Justice League #44.

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh...we both know it doesn't work like this Galan.

That's Darkseid. We do not share fts or make assumptions based off what another character has done.

Sigh...one of the Universes he supposedly consumed still had planets and star. Earth was shattered. A lot of speculation pointed towards him consuming universes. Then it was done off panel. Most likely hyper bole. That's exactly how it works, lol. Regardless of what you believe, Anti-Monitor did consume the energy of entire universes prior to engaging Darkseid(this was confirmed a few different times, on-panel.) We also know that Darkseid himself was destroying/consuming universes as well:
http://s5d1.turboimg.net/t1/24336617_Constantine_2013-_022-019.jpg http://s5d1.turboimg.net/t1/24336618_Constantine_2013-_023-011.jpg

Like it or not, that is the level they were both operating at. On-panel evidence>carver9. thumb up


And despite wielding such gargantuan power, Darkseid's dues ex machina weapon was still the Black Racer/Death. Why? Because as evident by Racer significantly injuring AM with a glancing blow, AND outright killing Darkseid, he was >>> both of them.

Here's some additional info on his DCnU incarnation:
http://s5d1.turboimg.net/t1/24336620_Justice_League_2011-_045-007.jpg http://s5d1.turboimg.net/t1/24336622_Justice_League_2011-_045-017.jpg


And again: AM used the ALE to effortlessly take control of Black Racer/Death, and turn him into his own personal puppet.


That said, there is NO reason to assume Krona could resist the ALE.

DarkSaint85
Carver, face me in the battlezone.

You can bring Colossaunaut.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Stoic

I could have sworn that Krona had the power to casually wipe out universes
like a normal person would wreck a living room with a sledge hammer?
Well, Krona did destroy at-last two alternate realities, one from DC, and one from Marvel.
But, as far as him being above the items, that's a no, no.

Grandmaster was owned before using said items.
As a last ditch effort, Grandmaster used the items to trap Krona between DC and Marvel
Krona managed to escape and continued the process Grandmaster had started,
keeping Eternity and Kismet merged via the items.
Originally posted by Stoic

Also what gave you the idea that the Marvel characters were weakened?
Pardon me, I made a mistake due to a mis-interpretation on my part.

The Marvel heroes (in general) were just straight up weaker than the DC cats:

Aquaman compares the heroes of Marvel with DC's: (regardless of where they stood)

"Heroes here seem less powerful ... than at home"

http://s5d3.turboimg.net/t/24336688_JLA.jpg


Aquaman follows on that point and tells Supes, "they have to fight amazingly hard just to keep things on an even keel"

http://s5d3.turboimg.net/t/24336690_JLA1.jpg

--------------------------------------

Damn, Kurt Busiek (writer) made the Marvels the underdogs before the fights started. sad (well, except for Wanda)

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Stoic
Okay I have to go back and re-read those books. I could have sworn that Krona had the power to casually wipe out universes like a normal person would wreck a living room with a sledge hammer? I'll go back and check it out when I have the time. Also what gave you the idea that the Marvel characters were weakened? I missed that as well. Is there some way to prove this claim? If true that wouldn't bode well for Superman's apparent victory over Thor.

I have to reread it too it seems as:

1.) Krona was in the Marvel U with his Glactus castle when the items were used to trap him between the Universes. Logic indicates that if the IG or the items combined were powerful enough to destroy him Grandmaster wouldn't need to trap him wink.

2.) The heroes were not less powerful in the DCU, for some of them the contrary can be said, like Scarlet Witch. Flash on the other hand became less powerful. I think the troll indicating that they were depowered has some reading comprehension issues. Aquaman states that he doesn't envy the heroes from Marvel because they seem less powerful in general, than at home (iow the heroes from marvel operate on a lower level than the heroes on our world), he makes clear that he talks about this when he further adds "AND their World is stacked against them so they have to fight hard to keep it on an equal level" Superman adds that they fight not hard enough, then we see batman apologizing to CA for the harsh words. It's about the populace of Marvel Earth not worshipping the heroes like the DC people do and them being less powerful in general.

facepalm@the trolls desperate attemt to lie.

EDit: Also Aquaman being the best choice to gauge powerlevels and knowing who is where less or more powerful and being so familiar with the "original" powerlevels of the Marvel heroes is lulzworthy.

DarkSaint85
When AQUAMAN calls you weaksauce, that's the biggest burn.

Galan007
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
1.) Krona was in the Marvel U with his Glactus castle when the items were used to trap him between the Universes. Logic indicates that if the IG or the items combined were powerful enough to destroy him Grandmaster wouldn't need to trap him wink. The backlash of energy from the items did undo him, though. We saw this at the end.
Originally posted by Galan007
Krona never directly resisted the items' power. In fact, said items were ultimately responsible for his downfall:
http://i.imgur.com/0RHjCmG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AMrdpD4.jpg

Mr Master
^^ thumb up
Originally posted by Stoic

If true that wouldn't bode well for Superman's apparent victory over Thor.
Well, it seems in Busiek's eyes DC heroes are just more powerful on average, as presented in my prior scans.

Now we understand what Supes meant by saying:

http://s5d3.turboimg.net/t/24337430_JLA5.jpg

"Sorry to disappoint, ... But in ... my world ... it looks like the dials go up to eleven"

-------------------------------

Busiek felt that DC heroes operate on a higher bar. Probably true. ("in general"wink

carver9
Wonder why they didn't let Superman and Hulk fight. Hulk was right in front of the JLA during all of that and he was destroying stuff. I think that would've proved if the dial goes to 11 with two of the strongest in each universe fighting against each other with a true Victor.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by carver9
Wonder why they didn't let Superman and Hulk fight. Hulk was right in front of the JLA during all of that and he was destroying stuff. I think that would've proved if the dial goes to 11 with two of the strongest in each universe fighting against each other with a true Victor.

Superman already beat the most powerful hero, Thor, why show him beat up a lesser one like the Hulk? vin

carver9
Sigh.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
Wonder why they didn't let Superman and Hulk fight. Hulk was right in front of the JLA during all of that and he was destroying stuff. I think that would've proved if the dial goes to 11 with two of the strongest in each universe fighting against each other with a true Victor. Simple: Superman>Thor>Hulk. thumb up

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by carver9
Sigh.
Originally posted by Galan007
Simple: Superman>Thor>Hulk. thumb up

xD

Philosophía
Does nobody here actually have mercy on Mr. Master, and teach him how to read comics?

The poor guy is struggling for help. Screaming, even.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Badabing
I have enough idiocy on other parts of KMC. Stop the nonsense yourselves or I will stop it, abruptly.

Zack M
What if we REMOVE the ALE from AM? AM is just relying on his energy/strength. How does Krona do then?

Stoic
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ thumb up

Well, it seems in Busiek's eyes DC heroes are just more powerful on average, as presented in my prior scans.

Now we understand what Supes meant by saying:

http://s5d3.turboimg.net/t/24337430_JLA5.jpg

"Sorry to disappoint, ... But in ... my world ... it looks like the dials go up to eleven"

-------------------------------

Busiek felt that DC heroes operate on a higher bar. Probably true. ("in general"wink

I think that we should take Aquaman's comment with a grain of salt. He really isn't the one that should have been the spokesperson of such generalizations. After all, Superman wasn't even talking that hard. I always stored his comment in the overconfident hyperbole section and kept it moving. If it came down to a who's more powerful arms race, we are talking about fictionalized characters that can rise or fall in power. It really depends on whether either company wants to continue rising the bar. This of course makes for idiotic loopholes that tend to paint certain characters into corners when they aren't always seen operating at ridiculous levels. I saw it similarly as Prof.T.C did. If the items were more powerful than Krona, they should have outright destroyed him instead of trapping him. I guess it comes down to perspective.

Blocky
One question for New 52 AM.

If he was controling death. Does that mean he can control Death of Endless as well?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Stoic

I think that we should take Aquaman's comment with a grain of salt.
He really isn't the one that should have been the spokesperson of such generalizations.
Imo, what Supes said correlated to Aquaman's comments.

I also corrected myself (concerning Aquaman) and blamed my mis-interpretation.
I agreed, that he didn't mean the Marvels were weaker in DC, but rather, the Marvels were weaker in general.
Originally posted by Stoic

If the items were more powerful than Krona, they should have outright destroyed him instead of trapping him.
Yes, but unfortunately Grandmaster never tried attacking Krona with the items.
(at-least that was never portrayed or alluded to happening)
GM, used the items after getting stomped by Krona.

The items were what stomped Krona in the end though, and then Hawkeye and Flash finished the job.
Originally posted by Stoic

I saw it similarly as Prof.T.C did.
I wouldn't know, can't see those posts.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Zack M
The Guardian or Monitor?


http://i60.tinypic.com/308wr3l.jpg

vs

http://i57.tinypic.com/10p82go.jpg DC vs DC?

What's the motive?

Galan007
Originally posted by Galan007
^ DCnU AM has the ALE.

He effortlessly took control of a universal abstract(Black Racer/Death), merged it with Flash(whom he also took control of), and used this new Death amalgam to seemingly kill Darkseid. So like I said from the very start: Black Racer is a universal embodiment of death...

"The Black Racer must run. This has to happen for the universe to continue, or it will break and all life will end.":
http://i.imgur.com/FxjKORz.jpg

"Just take one life and you can truly be the Black Racer. And then the universe can live.":
http://i.imgur.com/C1ayA5o.jpg

"You refuse? After all I've explained to you? You would see the whole of existence fall to pieces rather than take one life?":
http://i.imgur.com/JkRJOv8.jpg


Flash then attempts to 'kill' Black Racer with his own scythe, which only serves to unleash the full embodiment of Death from within him:
http://i.imgur.com/gpzTIqg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UHdSnGr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nxBevXe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/enKUKUU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fKpAvxq.jpg
"Death is free. For the first time. Without a tether. It'll spread uncontrolled. And there will be no life in the universe. Not even Gods..."

Zack M
Originally posted by Galan007
So like I said from the very start: Black Racer is a universal embodiment of death...

"The Black Racer must run. This has to happen for the universe to continue, or it will break and all life will end.":
http://i.imgur.com/FxjKORz.jpg

"Just take one life and you can truly be the Black Racer. And then the universe can live.":
http://i.imgur.com/C1ayA5o.jpg

"You refuse? After all I've explained to you? You would see the whole of existence fall to pieces rather than take one life?":
http://i.imgur.com/JkRJOv8.jpg


Flash then attempts to 'kill' Black Racer with his own scythe, which only serves to unleash the full embodiment of Death from within him:
http://i.imgur.com/gpzTIqg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UHdSnGr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nxBevXe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/enKUKUU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fKpAvxq.jpg
"Death is free. For the first time. Without a tether. It'll spread uncontrolled. And there will be no life in the universe. Not even Gods..."

That settles it. thumb up

SquallX
Originally posted by Blocky
One question for New 52 AM.

If he was controling death. Does that mean he can control Death of Endless as well?

No.

Death of the Endless is the last being to exist once everything is dead, she's also above every other aspect of Death, she's basically The Death in the DCU. Unless that no longer applies in the New 52.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
So like I said from the very start: Black Racer is a universal embodiment of death...

"The Black Racer must run. This has to happen for the universe to continue, or it will break and all life will end.":
http://i.imgur.com/FxjKORz.jpg

"Just take one life and you can truly be the Black Racer. And then the universe can live.":
http://i.imgur.com/C1ayA5o.jpg

"You refuse? After all I've explained to you? You would see the whole of existence fall to pieces rather than take one life?":
http://i.imgur.com/JkRJOv8.jpg


Flash then attempts to 'kill' Black Racer with his own scythe, which only serves to unleash the full embodiment of Death from within him:
http://i.imgur.com/gpzTIqg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UHdSnGr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nxBevXe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/enKUKUU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fKpAvxq.jpg
"Death is free. For the first time. Without a tether. It'll spread uncontrolled. And there will be no life in the universe. Not even Gods..." thumb up

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