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Team 1: Emperor Valkorion, Emperor Arcann, High Justice Vaylin

Team 2: Grandmaster Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, Jaina Solo

Location: Eternal Throne Room

Who wins?

Team 2 no contest

Valkorion vs Skywalker: Valkorion. He has far greater raw power, greater mastery of the Force, and can deflect any of Skywalker's lightsaber attacks between his barrier and speed.

Arcann vs Caedus: Caedus. They both are enormously impressive in the Force, especially in the fields of Force defense. I doubt either is getting an advantage there, but Caedus is the better duelist.

Vaylin vs Jaina Solo: Depends. If Vaylin decides to use the Force, she's going to telekinetically dominate Solo. If not, she's going to lose due to obviously inferior lightsaber abilities, to be honest.

That being said, Valkorion's victory over Skywalker gives his team the win.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Team 2 no contest
KEKEKEKEKKEKEKKEKEKEKKEKEKEKEKEK

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Team 2 no contest
Raisins?

The sheer side effect of Vitiate's lightning was taking out entire ships nearby, and the likes of Darth Nox, who already has binded eight spirits to her, went unconscious and nearly died due to the power Vitiate challenged through her.

And yet, Arcann considered Vitiate "weaker" than normal and still managed to defend against him for an elongated period of time.

Make way for the new OP family of Star Wars.

Imma kill 'em, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion vs Skywalker: Valkorion. He has far greater raw power, greater mastery of the Force, and can deflect any of Skywalker's lightsaber attacks between his barrier and speed.

Arcann vs Caedus: Caedus. They both are enormously impressive in the Force, especially in the fields of Force defense. I doubt either is getting an advantage there, but Caedus is the better duelist.

Vaylin vs Jaina Solo: Depends. If Vaylin decides to use the Force, she's going to telekinetically dominate Solo. If not, she's going to lose due to obviously inferior lightsaber abilities, to be honest.

That being said, Valkorion's victory over Skywalker gives his team the win.

The retardation of anyone thinking Valkorian beating Luke is beyond me. No one is beating Luke. NO ONE.

Why is this guy still on my forum, kek

Valkorion ate a world on his off day.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Raisins?

Luke beats anyone he goes up against.

Caedus, the only people who beat Caedus in my opinion are Luke, Sidious, Vitiate, Yoda and I believe that's it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why is this guy still on my forum, kek

Why are you still alive,kek. Dumbass thinking vitiate beats Luke.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Valkorion ate a world on his off day.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Why are you still alive,kek. Dumbass thinking vitiate beats Luke.
Don't mean to be "that guy," but let's honestly analyze these facts:

- No one here takes anything you say serious. If such member exists, no one takes them serious.
- You're opinions are based on old YouTube dogma and sourcebook statements older than you are.
- Even people who wank to Skywalker and Sidious are currently keking at your sheer stupidity.

If the notion Vitiate > Skywalker is "dumbass" worthy, might as well call majority of people here that because it's happening bro.

PS: Go be a sport and play out HK-55's life.

*****, leave HK out of this. He died for our sins.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Why are you still alive,kek. Dumbass thinking vitiate beats Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Don't mean to be "that guy," but let's honestly analyze these facts:

- No one here takes anything you say serious. If such member exists, no one takes them serious.
- You're opinions are based on old YouTube dogma and sourcebook statements older than you are.
- Even people who wank to Skywalker and Sidious are currently keking at your sheer stupidity.

If the notion Vitiate > Skywalker is "dumbass" worthy, might as well call majority of people here that because it's happening bro.

PS: Go be a sport and play out HK-55's life.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/04/ 0438bce0e45bfc23421041cce5752c6dc0aa58a5239d22af7f
15add0f509bb35.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Don't mean to be "that guy," but let's honestly analyze these facts:

- No one here takes anything you say serious. If such member exists, no one takes them serious.
- You're opinions are based on old YouTube dogma and sourcebook statements older than you are.
- Even people who wank to Skywalker and Sidious are currently keking at your sheer stupidity.

If the notion Vitiate > Skywalker is "dumbass" worthy, might as well call majority of people here that because it's happening bro.

PS: Go be a sport and play out HK-55's life.

Oh and people take what you says seriously? They accept you more as a bully really.

Pretty sure most things are older than me.

Considering Luke beat Sidious the most powerful Sith in history, and Vitiate needed an entire ritual with thousands of Sith to accomplish most of his power I'm siding with Luke, who was able to beat Sidious out of his prime.

Then that's the way it is then.

PS. Good back and be the obedient **** that you are and go suck Revan's Dick, then go and get f***** by vitiate.

Uh, obviously. I didn't waste 13,000 posts here and several thousand more on CV for nothing.

kek

Utterly terrible logic. Vitiate's ritual power is a part of his being. It's quantifiable for debates.

kek

PS: http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, obviously. I didn't waste 13,000 posts here and several thousand more on CV for nothing.

kek

Utterly terrible logic. Vitiate's ritual power is a part of his being. It's quantifiable for debates.

kek

PS: http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

No you've just wasted that much on bullying.

I'm not saying it's not usable, I'm just saying one character did one thing without the need of a "boost" while the other needed a ritual that he couldn't even perform by himself to gain his power.

That's irrelevant. Who cares how he gained his power? It's part of his being.

@ES2: http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

---

Statement acknowledged.

That being said, understand: Your point is completely irrelevant to the debate.

Also, you should know the following fact: Valkorion is not a Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Don't mean to be "that guy," but let's honestly analyze these facts:

- No one here takes anything you say serious. If such member exists, no one takes them serious.
- You're opinions are based on old YouTube dogma and sourcebook statements older than you are.
- Even people who wank to Skywalker and Sidious are currently keking at your sheer stupidity.

If the notion Vitiate > Skywalker is "dumbass" worthy, might as well call majority of people here that because it's happening bro.

PS: Go be a sport and play out HK-55's life.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's irrelevant. Who cares how he gained his power? It's part of his being.

Good man, Quan. I support your conquest of TFA avidly.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Good man, Quan. I support your conquest of TFA avidly. I just wish poser fans like emperor Sidious would quit pretending they love Star Wars like we do.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@ES2: http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

---

Statement acknowledged.

That being said, understand: Your point is completely irrelevant to the debate.

Also, you should know the following fact: Valkorion is not a Sith.

I know it doesn't change the debate. It's just more of a FYI thing I suppose and then when you compare him to other Sith who have done similar things without the ritual it questions his power.

What's up with that? Why not just proclaim yourself a Sith. Your the emperor of all of them so just claim that title.

Bruh, he's not the Emperor of the sith. Please don't debate Knights of the Fallen Empire material unless you've actually seen what happens and understand it comprehensively.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Bruh, he's not the Emperor of the sith. Please don't debate Knights of the Fallen Empire material unless you've actually seen what happens and understand it comprehensively.


He will continue to debate even though everyone can tell he's ignorant.

@ES2: No one has ever made that comparison besides you.

Because his Sith Empire was a failure and he now has and sponsors a new philosophy that encourages exploration in both sides of the Force.

He's as much of a Sith or Jedi as Revan the Redeemed was in SOR. He has a separate faction that has a balanced philosophy on the Force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@ES2: No one has ever made that comparison besides you.

Because his Sith Empire was a failure and he now has and sponsors a new philosophy that encourages exploration in both sides of the Force.

He's as much of a Sith or Jedi as Revan the Redeemed was in SOR. He has a separate faction that has a balanced philosophy on the Force.

Very suprised.

Noted. Thank you for answering my question.

Originally posted by quanchi112



He will continue to debate even though everyone can tell he's ignorant.

This coming from the guy who comes into expanded universe forums and gets upset when someone uses expanded universe material.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This coming from the guy who comes into expanded universe forums and gets upset when someone uses expanded universe material. Canon only. The rules have changed. Love Disney.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Canon only. The rules have changed. Love Disney.

If stated speciffacly then yes it's canon only, however when not all feast apply.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If stated speciffacly then yes it's canon only, however when not all feast apply. No, default rules are canon only unless other wise stated. You're slow.

guis another thread plz

My God ES2----you're doing a horrible job defending the NJO team.

Team 1 honestly.

Arcann can give Caedus an excellent fight, but Caedus likely beats him due to being more skilled. Luke can hold off Valkorion.

So it's probably dependent on Jaina vs. Vaylin, and from what I saw Vaylin will likely go for a duel and she loses to Jaina everytime in that regard.

I disagree, Carth. I think the fight with her mother wasn't the rule, but the exception.

She explicitly puts away her lightsabers when able to battle the Hero and Lana.

Yeah, honestly, ES2, just stop. There's only a few people here who will both bother and actually be capable of debating for the NJO team here, and you're not one of them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I disagree, Carth. I think the fight with her mother wasn't the rule, but the exception.

She explicitly puts away her lightsabers when able to battle the Hero and Lana.

My point being she isn't lasting long in a duel, and Jaina wasn't ragdolled by Abeloth when she was blasted by her and was injured/exhausted and Abeloth's vastly more powerful than Vaylin.

Team 2 soundly.

Luke is still the trump card among force users, and Valk still can't take him. Caedus will also win his round. Jaina may lose, but...if the top 2 fights are going to the Skywalker-Solos, that's that.

(I'm not even convinced Valk can take DE Sidious, and Luke has a significant edge on Sidious)

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Luke is still the trump card among force users, and Valk still can't take him.

excellent

Thing is, if Angel and ES2 are your only defenders, shit gonna get nasty, tbh.

OVerhyped, the Dark Side is. Stronger it is not.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Team 2 soundly.

Luke is still the trump card among force users, and Valk still can't take him. Caedus will also win his round. Jaina may lose, but...if the top 2 fights are going to the Skywalker-Solos, that's that.

(I'm not even convinced Valk can take DE Sidious, and Luke has a significant edge on Sidious)
Luke Skywalker had no answer for Sith Sorcery of Exar Kun. And you think that he will handle Valkorion?

Let me get this straight: Luke is not unstoppable and he doesn't have an answer for every technique ever devised.

Luke managed to defeat Darth Sidious with aid of Leia Organa Solo. A fact that people tend to forget.

LAL @ using a pre-prime Luke to supplement your argument. Luke learned from that experience, and grew far more powerful ever since.

DC, Sidious, and to a lesser extent Luke, needs you be his champion because Angel and ES2 are going to bury him, and carthage is only a peg away from breaking if he goes much longer without aid.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL @ using a pre-prime Luke to supplement your argument. Luke learned from that experience, and grew far more powerful ever since.
Valkorion have lot more at his disposal, I am sure. Besides, Luke Skywalker is absolutely vulnerable to Force Drain powers as apparent from actions of Darth Krayt. And Valkorion is a peer of Darth Nihilus in the matters of Force Drain. Good luck tanking his Force Drain powers.

Also, where it is stated that Luke became "far more powerful" after the events of Dark Empire? Some of his best showings are during the era of Dark Empire actually.

He has better against the Vong. Better still against Ones Tier Aboleth.

JA was frankly Luke at his worst. Somebody was lowballing him at the time.

As for Force Drain, he'd never experienced it before Darth Krayt. Tough to shrug off something you've never been hit with before, or that you weren't expecting. It's how guys like Vader can toss guys like Sidious overboard. Or how guys like Han Friggin Solo can shoot Sidious with a mere blaster.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
DC, Sidious, and to a lesser extent Luke, needs you be his champion because Angel and ES2 are going to bury him, and carthage is only a peg away from breaking if he goes much longer without aid.

Seems to be the case, LAWL.

First of all, we have no idea how capable Senya is as a duelist so Vaylin losing to her doesn't really say much about hers(I bet they are both pretty good actually). Also, Ant makes a good point as Vaylin seems to prefer abusing her force powers and her fight with her mother seemed like a very personal instance to me. In due time we will have a clearer understanding of her level of skill(hopefully Senya or Vaylin will get new feats) and Jaina vs Vaylin will have a more solid conclusion but I think even as of now, Vaylin wins due to better application of the force.

HoT/The Outlander's skill with the blade shouldn't be underestimated and Arcann was his slight superior so closing the gap wouldn't be a quick victory for Caedus. Arcann can definitely hold his own in the force against Caedus longer than Jaina can hold hers against Vaylin.

Since this is Valkorion with his KOTFE showings(they still don't represent his full power), I believe the fight would be very similar to the force fights between Yoda and Sidious. Since they are very close, it should again take longer than Vaylin's fight.

But lets say Luke manages to kill Valkorion. He can still come back and enter Vaylin or Arkann's body and unleash his full power there yet again.

I don't think team Skywalker can win a majority here tbh.

He just blocks the essence transfer. Do recall he does have experience with that, considering DE Sidious tries it multiple times in his presence. He won't need Brand to intercept such things for him anymore.

Luke couldn't even resist Kun.

And what Vitiate does to unleash his power through the Outlander is not essence transfer

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luke couldn't even resist Kun.

That was way before his prime.

It honestly reminds me most of Celeste and Muur.

Originally posted by carthage
That was way before his prime.
And still after DE, which is what Angel used as evidence.

If Luke used sever force or wall of light on Valkorion, or on whomever he chose to possess, he could destroy him tbh.

He could contain his spirit but not destroy him, and that's only assuming he has someone to bolster him which would be difficult because Caedus is a Sith and Jaina would be fighting Vaylin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Besides, Luke Skywalker is absolutely vulnerable to Force Drain powers as apparent from actions of Darth Krayt.

Krayt wasn't successful in his attempt at Drain, Luke shrugged him off quite quickly iirc.

Carthage, you have become a worthy disciple.

Well, the idea there is easy. Take over Jaina's duel for her and let her concentrate on aiding him with the Force Light/Force Harmony.

As you say, though, Caedus is useless for anything lightside, and you need to contain Valk's spirit or he'll be up to shenanigans after he's dead.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well, the idea there is easy. Take over Jaina's duel for her and let her concentrate on aiding him with the Force Light/Force Harmony.

As you say, though, Caedus is useless for anything lightside, and you need to contain Valk's spirit or he'll be up to shenanigans after he's dead. Who is gonna do that though? No one will be able to assist her.

Caedus can do it, or Luke can do it himself.

We haven't established who the first on team Sith to die is. Regardless, Jaina's opponent is the weakest of the 3 sith and easily dispatched by Caedus or Luke.

Originally posted by Trocity
Krayt wasn't successful in his attempt at Drain, Luke shrugged him off quite quickly iirc.
Wrong, my friend.

Darth Krayt breached Luke Skywalker's defenses with a Force Drain technique but his attack was limited in its scope since he was fighting Abeloth at the same time. Luke did manage to land a blow on the Sith Lord to discourage him from siphoning his energy. However, this development clearly demonstrates Luke's vulnerability to Force Drain powers. Heck, even the likes of Abeloth do not have sufficient defenses against Force Drain powers and lost the battle due to this vulnerability.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Caedus can do it, or Luke can do it himself.

We haven't established who the first on team Sith to die is. Regardless, Jaina's opponent is the weakest of the 3 sith and easily dispatched by Caedus or Luke.
Check Vaylin's feats in this footage:

hHujysrQ8ek

Do keep in mind that Vaylin is in the early phase of understanding her Force abilities during this time; her situation is like that of a padawan during training sessions. Why? Because Valkorion held her back and did not permit her to explore her Force abilities for a long long time.

But even at an early stage, Vaylin is performing shit that you can expect only from a super-strong Force-user with decades of experience. Now imagine what she can do after years of practice and experience.

Still think that Vaylin will be easily dispatched?

Jaina Solo is utterly outgunned in this contest by the way.

B/W Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin and Senya are not Sith.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Caedus can do it, or Luke can do it himself.

We haven't established who the first on team Sith to die is. Regardless, Jaina's opponent is the weakest of the 3 sith and easily dispatched by Caedus or Luke. First of all, they are not sith and Luke or Caedus doing that would give Valkorion or Arcann the time to one-shot Jaina or it would even give Valkorion the chance to charge very deadly attacks to gain the upper hand against his opponent which would matter a lot more than the fight between Vaylin and Jaina. Valkorion's weakened lightning was capable of destroying hundreds of people and explode ships just as a side effect and Arcann was tanking that assault directed at him. Valkorion at his peak can one-shot Arcann so a charged up attack sent by him at Caedus wouldn't end too well for him.

Caedus has rather famously taken a turbolaser to the face, so don't be so sure about what he can and can't tank.

It's also worth noting two members of team Skywalker have achieved Oneness.

Caedus was overwhelmed by Luke's TK, which is not comparable to a turbolaser.

And no. No it's not.

You're right. Luke's TK is significantly more powerful.

Luke's TK has held up SD's before gaining a substantial amount of power, though. And collapsed mounntain like structures, and moved pseudo Black Holes.

Originally posted by ares834
You're right. Luke's TK is significantly more powerful.
No it's not. A turbolaser would absolutely destroy the chair Luke pinned him in. As great as Luke's TK may be, what he used in that situation was enough to incapacitate Caedus, and it definitely was not as powerful as a turbolaser.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wrong, my friend.

Darth Krayt breached Luke Skywalker's defenses with a Force Drain technique but his attack was limited in its scope since he was fighting Abeloth at the same time. Luke did manage to land a blow on the Sith Lord to discourage him from siphoning his energy. However, this development clearly demonstrates Luke's vulnerability to Force Drain powers. Heck, even the likes of Abeloth do not have sufficient defenses against Force Drain powers and lost the battle due to this vulnerability. u really consider sneak attacking luke while he is using all of his power to restrain/ fight off Abeloth, with an attack luke didnt even know Krayt was using against him until he noticed himself getting weaker as a breach of his defenses?

That's not something I even remotely suggested. Fact is saying, "Caedus can take a turbolaser to the face, so..." while completely disregarding the fact that Caedus has been defeated using much less power is stupid. Not that blocking a turbolaser is even that impressive when Vader has done it casually.

And to be quite frankly, the arguments from both sides are disgusting. I'm just devil's advocate for TOR at the moment.

No. That's exactly what you're arguing. You're lowballing off of collateral damage of all things. And that Vader casually blocks a turbo laser speaks simply of his own considerable power.

When does Vader casually block a turbo laser?

He dodged it he never blocked it, and it was canon fire from an AT-AT. Well maybe he used barrier, IDK

Originally posted by ares834
No. That's exactly what you're arguing. You're lowballing off of collateral damage of all things.

No that's exactly what you said, because again, like I just pointed out, that had nothing to do with my argument.

And Vader won't be able to block Valkorion's Lightning, so using a turbolaser as a basis for Caedus tanking it is faulty logic.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's not something I even remotely suggested. Fact is saying, "Caedus can take a turbolaser to the face, so..." while completely disregarding the fact that Caedus has been defeated using much less power is stupid. Not that blocking a turbolaser is even that impressive when Vader has done it casually.

And to be quite frankly, the arguments from both sides are disgusting. I'm just devil's advocate for TOR at the moment.

Lol what?

Its impressive because of the sheer power it involved, and Vader didn't block it he dodged it and it blew up the rubble behind him. Luke can dominate Caedus's because he more powerful than him, and its a plus for him not a negative or proof Vitiate can do the same lmao.

Vitiate's lightning isn't blasting massive holes through capital ships or leveling rebel bases, call me when it can do that and then we can talk about it being relevant to taking out Caedus

Originally posted by carthage
Lol what?

Its impressive because of the sheer power it involved, and Vader didn't block it he dodged it and it blew up the rubble behind him.

First, I wasn't talking about that, and no, it blew up all around him.
"Noses down, the freighters began firing from blaster cannons mounted on the top and bottom of the ships, long red lines that exited the ship in superheated pulses. Trees one hundred meters from Vader and the Emperor exploded into splinters under the onslaught, and the lines cut a rapid path along the clearing toward them, putting a patchwork of smoking holes in the earth, closing in on Vader.

One with the Force, Vader held his ground and tensed for impact. Then he exploded into motion, his lightsaber humming as he spun it rapidly left and right, deflecting the powerful blaster shots off into the forest, shattering still more trees, destroying the tents, but sparing the communications array. The kinetic energy from the shots drove him backward, his boots putting furrows in the soft soil.

The Royal Guards, momentarily taken by surprise, recovered enough to plant blaster rifles against their shoulders. They fired at the freighters as the large ships sped over and past them, but the personal weapons did no harm to the shielded and armored ships."

Wow, another argument I didn't make being presented to me as if it's a quote. The point was you don't need to be as powerful as a turbolaser to tank Caedus out of the count.

We see his lightning blowing up several ships and killing hundreds of people. A turbolaser isn't even remotely comparable when the vast majority are just turrets.

http://i.imgur.com/NkGD5M5.jpg

He was deflecting them with his lightsaber not with barrier, Caedus tanked the bolt with his bare hand. The destructive output only makes Caedus's feat more impressive than Vader's. And that's not the instance I was speaking of anyway



Again call me again when Vitiate's lightning shows damage comparable to the destructive output of a turbolaser. Saying his lightning can take him out when all it did was KO Arcann, and kill non force sensitives means the burden of proof is on you to show it can take him out.





It didn't blow up any ships, it killed the non force sensitives piloting them and brought them down/caused them to crash into each other. If he had exploded the ships by virtue of the potency of his lightning you'd have a case, he didn't all he did was kill non force sensitives that can't defend themselves from it A turbolaser would've blown them up completely and reduced the pilots to ashes.

Originally posted by JKBart
http://i.imgur.com/NkGD5M5.jpg

Yesh. The sooner, the better.

Also Jaina had a feat similar to Vader's, she was dodging/deflecting the bolts/turbolaser fire and Zekk could deflect them and they both marveled at Jacen's feat:

I always find it hard to compare technology to the force. I mean obviously Death Star > Valkorion's lightning but should a turbo laser absorption mean Caedus can survive Valkorion's lightning?

Also Carthage, you're missing some details.

Valkorion's lightning wasn't aimed at those ships. The destruction caused there doesn't represent his full capacity. It was merely collateral or side effect damage(?) as there were 50-100 meters distance between the ships and Valkorion. Arcann resisted that level of lightning directed at him from a 4-5 meters distance for like 10 seconds and the lightning that Valky will unleash on Caedus will be strong enough to instantly one-shot an Arcann level force-user.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

We see his lightning blowing up several ships and killing hundreds of people. A turbolaser isn't even remotely comparable when the vast majority are just turrets.

Originally posted by carthage
He was deflecting them with his lightsaber not with barrier, Caedus tanked the bolt with his bare hand. The destructive output only makes Caedus's feat more impressive than Vader's. And that's not the instance I was speaking of anyway

No. No it doesn't. We see Vader clearly in an explosion, that definitely hit him since his helmet flies off, with next to no damage, and we see Vader clearly able to withstand the kinetic energy from a turbolaser. It's not more impressive just because Caedus uses his hands.

It blew up dozens of ships and burst through the walls of Asylum's spires.

Also I like how Caedus blocking a turbolaser and not dying is impressive, but Arcann blocking Lightning, also with his bare hands(because that's important), that's killing everyone in it's path isn't. Also, it didn't knock him unconscious. If it had, he'd have died from the free fall.

No. No, it didn't. And the fact that they are non Force Sensitives is inconsequential as it kills literally hundreds. It's idiotic to think that amount of energy can't match a turbolaser when it's clearly destructive and widespread. This also ignoring that many of those caught in the blast were Knights of Zakuul who are Force Sensitive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Do keep in mind that Vaylin is in the early phase of understanding her Force abilities during this time; her situation is like that of a padawan during training sessions. Why? Because Valkorion held her back and did not permit her to explore her Force abilities for a long long time.

She had over 5 years for that, ever since the HoT killed the Emperor's voice:

http://puu.sh/kTKkq/0afb3d5156.jpg

Agreed. I think five years is long enough to come into one's own, and she's clearly had all the time she's needed to practice in those five years.

In my opinion, most of the energy in blasterfire/turbolaser/etc is in aspects like heat and shit, not kinetic force. Hence why they're supposedly so powerful yet only raise chest high sand geysers instead of like, blow up a meters deep crater.

Sure, they still pack a considerable amount of punch. But Zekk manages to block one head on and only get forced to his knee's. So Jacen blocking those shots with a barrier is pretty much just him blocking a punch of shots of that caliber. Very impressive to be sure, but not exactly "OMG JACEN BLOCKED 1.21 GIGAWATTS OF ENERGY! JACEN FOR ISLAND BUSTER!"

Edit: It's been 5 years since the end of Act III? Holy shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In my opinion, most of the energy in blasterfire/turbolaser/etc is in aspects like heat and shit, not kinetic force. Hence why they're supposedly so powerful yet only raise chest high sand geysers instead of like, blow up a meters deep crater.

Sure, they still pack a considerable amount of punch. But Zekk manages to block one head on and only get forced to his knee's. So Jacen blocking those shots with a barrier is pretty much just him blocking a punch of shots of that caliber. Very impressive to be sure, but not exactly "OMG JACEN BLOCKED 1.21 GIGAWATTS OF ENERGY! JACEN FOR ISLAND BUSTER!"

Edit: It's been 5 years since the end of Act III? Holy shit. Sounds fair to me

Originally posted by Nephthys

Edit: It's been 5 years since the end of Act III? Holy shit.
Nah, bro. It's been five years and a few months since Rise of the Emperor.
It's been about 6 years since Act III. Give or take, there's really no official timeline after Ilum.

Turbolasers massively differ in firepower.

He was in motion when the explosions were coming his way, and he deflected them with his saber not palmed them. He wast taking the full brunt of the blast with his lightsaber (not barrier), and having his boots driven into the ground. Compared to Caedus facing the full bront of a "carpet of death" that hurled twenty bolts a square meter, and he deflected them with more ease than Jaina, Zekk, or Vader who could deflect them but were getting knocked off course and with more effort on their part. Good feat for Vader, but Caedus was performed with undeniably more ease (before his prime)



Arcann was crushed by pillars and likely expended some energy stomping the Hero. The fact he could even deflect his lightning while likely tired from his duel/surviving being crushed is an amazing feat for him. I'm not sure how that detracts from Caedus's feat? Good for Arcann- at full power he could perform a lot better and possibly similar to Caedus



Which is why his lightning can't cause as much damage as lasers, when even a bolt can reduce non force sensitives to paste. Ok. I get it it can kill non force sensitives and leave no damage to their bodies and drop fodder Zakuul knights. Great feat for Vitiate but its still not as strong as what you posted for Vader and numerous examples of cannon fire blowing up ships/atomizing Vong etc for cannonfire/turbolasers. Valkorion has a number of ways to defeat Caedus (with effort) via telekinesis, or more powerful attacks he has in his arsenal. Not sure why its hard to believe he isn't as godlike based off of killing non force sensitives and lightning that can be deflected or dodged. Where did it actually blow up ships as well on contact?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the timeskip.

Also Vaylin was blocking a ships cannon's with a sheet of metal.

Originally posted by carthage

Valkorion has a number of ways to defeat Caedus (with effort) via telekinesis, or more powerful attacks he has in his arsenal. Not sure why its hard to believe he isn't as godlike based off of killing non force sensitives and lightning that can be deflected or dodged. Where did it actually blow up ships as well on contact? You think his TK is superior to his lightning or has more deadly attacks in his arsenal? Can you explain?

I'm not sure what Neph is trying to say, tbh. If a Turbolaser canonically impacts with the force of a gigatons (which feats certainly back up) , Jacen deflected that kind of destructuve output - simple as that really. Now, that all turbolasers hit with the same amount of force, so perhaps you have wiggle room to argue there.

An impact with the force of gigatons only raises a chest high geyser of sand or knocks Zekk down? Yeah, sure.

I think that might've been the fire from the Chiss cannons though, probably not the turbolasers. The quote mentions they were being fired though

@Neph:

Yet... Turbolasers have completely shagged planets with continues blast power and tear through shields that no sell nukes, and canotically withstand teratons of force.

Originally posted by carthage
I think that might've been the fire from the Chiss cannons though, probably not the turbolasers.

Then why do people refer to them as turbolasers? KEK. I don't actually see how people confuse laser canons, and turbolasers with each other given the MASSIVE difference between the firepower. One can raze a planet with repeated shots; the other prolly can't a freaking city.

Carthage and DC stomping tbh.

I think its some confusion from the text, it mentions them deflecting cannonfire but at the same time turbolasers are going off.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Neph:

Yet... Turbolasers have completely shagged planets with continues blast power and tear through shields that no sell nukes, and canotically withstand teratons of force.


Oh shit, they were slagging the planet where Jacen and Jaina were fighting????

Oh no wait, they weren't.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
. One can raze a planet with repeated shots; the other prolly can't a freaking city.

Wedge fired shots from his quad lasers/cannons into oncoming Vong during the Battle of Borleias in NJO Rebel Dream and literally exploded/reduced them to paste. Vitiate's lightning can't even do that to non force sensitives.

^^^

That is shitty logic. You are expecting such magnitude of gore in the game? You shouldn't. Such details are expected in a novel, not a game that is played by children.

In a novel, a casual burst of Force Lightning from Darth Nyriss reduced two guards to charred husks (burned them beyond recognition). Now imagine, what Valkorion's Force Lightning would do to guards.

Originally posted by carthage
He was in motion when the explosions were coming his way, and he deflected them with his saber not palmed them. He wast taking the full brunt of the blast with his lightsaber (not barrier), and having his boots driven into the ground. Compared to Caedus facing the full bront of a "carpet of death" that hurled twenty bolts a square meter, and he deflected them with more ease than Jaina, Zekk, or Vader who could deflect them but were getting knocked off course and with more effort on their part. Good feat for Vader, but Caedus was performed with undeniably more ease (before his prime)

You're not an idiot, all evidence to the contrary, so I know that you know what splash is. The laser didn't just hit the ground and disappear. All the heat and energy splashes outwards, and you can clearly see this in the comic. It also obviously would have to to knock his helmet off. His boots were driven into the ground because he's fighting in the middle of a forest, which surprise, has pretty loose soil. The feat also isn't more impressive just because the author doesn't talk about his shoes, nor did Caedus face the full bront of a "carpet," which isn't actually a thing given the definition of brunt doesn't allow for it to also be a carpet.

Your assumptions aside, like assuming he was crushed at all for instance, doesn't really change the fact that Valkorion's Lightning is more impressive than a turbolaser.

You may not have realized this, or maybe you have in the hour or so that I was gone, but this is a T rated video game. There is no gore or dismembering whatsoever shown anywhere, even when comments stress that there are. Logically speaking, anything that can destroy metal can turn anything made of flesh and bone to goo.

I like how you completely ignored what I said about Force Sensitives being there, because the Lighting was confirmed to kill a large amount of the attacking Force. And in the cutscene, surprisingly enough. The fact that everything is going on up in an inferno may not be enough for you, but it's proof enough for me, especially considering the spread that it's much more impressive than a laser. Seriously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh shit, they were slagging the planet where Jacen and Jaina were fighting????

LAL.

My point is they have shown that way in other sources, such as novels and objective statements made in sourcebooks. This is undeniable. If they were Turbolasers that's the kind of power they canonically pack, period. What was shown in the book can easily be written off as an inconsistency, or the writer just not caring about showing it's collateral damage.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No that's exactly what you said, because again, like I just pointed out, that had nothing to do with my argument.

So then why bring up the chair?

Anyway, back to my original point Luke's TK is vastly more powerful then a turbolaser.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL.

My point is they have shown that way in other sources, such as novels and objective statements made in sourcebooks. This is undeniable. If they were Turbolasers that's the kind of power they canonically pack, period. What was shown in the book can easily be written off as an inconsistency, or the writer just not caring about showing it's collateral damage.

Except they specifically describe its collateral damage, so no. I deny that those lasers had more power than what the were explicitly shown to have. Like has been said, turbolaser fire is immensely variable. Obviously the cannon's of a capital ship are going to be a little different than that of a freighter. The lasers in the book were also clearly depicted as being about scattered fire, which could be why they weren't as individually powerful.

Originally posted by carthage
I think its some confusion from the text, it mentions them deflecting cannonfire but at the same time turbolasers are going off.

I can't get my hands on the book at the moment - so do you have the quote laying around somewhere? I would like to give it another read before I debate further.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I can't get my hands on the book at the moment - so do you have the quote laying around somewhere? I would like to give it another read before I debate further.

Jaina confirms he deflected them in Legacy of the Force Revelation.

http://www.goreading.net/Legacy_Of_The_Force_08/25.html

Thanks, Carth!

Whelp, Neph. This was a nice red herring, but the Turbolaser showing is completely unrelated to the instance we're currently arguing. So yeah - since nothing actually contradicts Jaina's statements at all, then him deflecting Gigatons still stands.

Before we argue different levels of Turbolasers, lets not. Turbolasers are typically on Capital ships and such, and they commonly tear through the shields of other ships that completely no-sell nuke level shit, so there is that.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Whelp, Neph. This was a nice red herring, but the Turbolaser showing is completely unrelated to the instance we're currently arguing. So yeah - since nothing actually contradicts Jaina's statements at all, then him deflecting Gigatons still stands.

Before we argue different levels of Turbolasers, lets not. Turbolasers are typically on Capital ships and such, and they commonly tear through the shields of other ships that completely no-sell nuke level shit, so there is that.

Last I recall, they can also completely obliterate asteroids.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Whelp, Neph. This was a nice red herring, but the Turbolaser showing is completely unrelated to the instance we're currently arguing. So yeah - since nothing actually contradicts Jaina's statements at all, then him deflecting Gigatons still stands.

Before we argue different levels of Turbolasers, lets not. Turbolasers are typically on Capital ships and such, and they commonly tear through the shields of other ships that completely no-sell nuke level shit, so there is that.
Turbolasers significantly vary in firepower aspects. You cannot avoid this fact.

Turbolasers are used in both land-based defenses and Starships.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Turbolasers significantly vary in firepower aspects. You cannot avoid this fact.
Never avoided that fact my dear, in fact I already acknowledged it. That being said, typically Turbolasers hit with the Force of gigatons. While the scaled up ones, can tear through shields who's defensive capabilities are measured in the teraton range. You can speculate it was land-based, if you like - but given the context of the quote I'd disagree.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Turbolasers are used in both land-based defenses and Starships.

The latter, yes - the former? No. Starships carry laser-canons. Not Turbolasers, which dwarf the former by a significant degree.

Im a little confused. Is there an actual feat of jacen deflecting turbolasers or just jainas statement?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Whelp, Neph. This was a nice red herring, but the Turbolaser showing is completely unrelated to the instance we're currently arguing. So yeah - since nothing actually contradicts Jaina's statements at all, then him deflecting Gigatons still stands.

Before we argue different levels of Turbolasers, lets not. Turbolasers are typically on Capital ships and such, and they commonly tear through the shields of other ships that completely no-sell nuke level shit, so there is that.

It doesn't remotely stand. All you have is a passing mention of him supposedly doing it without any context or specificity. You cannot possibly prove that he deflected gigaton scale turbolasers.


Also, I find it hard to think of when Jaina could have witnessed Jacen doing that. Carthages quote said that she'd never seen him do something like that. And after the Dark Nest crisis, Jacen runs off to study obscure force techniques up until he comes back and turns into Caedus. And Jaina was never around his fights after his return and he never pulls something like that off iirc. So either she is referring to that instance or she's fibbing.

I'll get to the above tomorrow - though if the DN trilogy is what Jaina's referring to, then the Turbolasers are canonically gigatons because they all universally penetrate shields that no sell primative Nuke-level warfare.