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**** yeah. Let's test the limits in this crib.

Vitiate's full power is in a body capable of successfully harnessing and unleashing that power.

Battle takes place in the Eternal Throne. Vitiate is standing on his throne.

EDIT: TPM Plagueis and TPM Palpatine are incarnations. If team loses, bring in ROTS version.

ps: if you use an outdated sourcebook as your one and only proof on the team's superiority, an hero plz

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

ps: if you use an outdated sourcebook as your one and only proof on the team's superiority, an hero plz

u just buthurt u have no answer 2 it

tiem 2 an hero

Valkorion, bringing his entire power to bear, can destroy an entire world, dude. Nobody can stop such an onslaught.

Team.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Team.
And if Valkorion pulls a Nathema on them, then?

Good luck prepping that in the middle of a fight.

Doesn't Plagueis muse that there's no other Force user on record whose powers exceed his or some such? mmm

TPM? Ehhhh. I think it needs a stronger version of Sidious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't Plagueis muse that there's no other Force user on record whose powers exceed his or some such? mmm LOL @ Temp always coming up with the shittiest arguments these days

Apparently Valky says that he's not a Sith straight up. Get dunked, Temp.

He even tries to convince the Sith Warrior to stop calling himself a Sith and be like Valkorion lol

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL @ Temp always coming up with the shittiest arguments these days

It was a question, not an argument. excellent

lol @ the guy who used to cry about people being mean to him obsessively pursuing me from thread to thread with palpable hostility

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It was a question, not an argument. excellent

lol @ the guy who used to cry about people being mean to him obsessively pursuing me from thread to thread with palpable hostility LOL I was never crying about people being mean to me. I enjoy that stuff. I was merely b****ing about bringing in that infantile behavior into serious debates. Besides, I don't have anything against but your choice of defending characters(especially Sidious).

It's ok. You should embrace your identity as a Hypocrite. It's pretty much the SWTOR uniform. excellent

tPM Palpatine would loose to him after a good fight. Plagueis solos. In a 2v1 duel, it's a stomp.

Originally posted by McP
Plagueis solos.
:')

Originally posted by McP
tPM Palpatine would loose to him after a good fight. Plagueis solos. In a 2v1 duel, it's a stomp. This is so retarded lol

Not really. Plagueis being a legit powerhouse didn't stop being a thing that was true or anything. While I possibly disagree that he'd beat Valkorion, I wouldn't shudder at the idea.

Plagueis > Vitiate is retarded bro

Well, I disagree.

So you, even before SoR came out, let alone SoR or Ziost or KOTFE, believed that Vitiate > DE Sidious was very possible but right now you think Plagueis > Valkorion can be a thing? Well, okay then.

Originally posted by Sinious
So you, even before SoR came out, let alone SoR or Ziost or KOTFE, believed that Vitiate > DE Sidious was very possible but right now you think Plagueis > Valkorion can be a thing? Well, okay then.

Emphasis mine. Two highlighted words that illustrate, why Neph is...

a)...not wrong.
b)...smarter than you.

Not that I haven't known that before.

I specifically used those words to make my point, buddy. DE Sidious is much higher than TPM Sidious and someone on DE Sids level shouldn't lose a majority to TPM Sidious if they lose at all.

Not really a valuable observation. Try harder.

I'm glad that shitty idea of "DE Sidious' isn't a part of the Canon anymore.

Originally posted by Sinious
I specifically used those words to make my point, buddy. DE Sidious is much higher than TPM Sidious and someone on DE Sids level shouldn't lose a majority to TPM Sidious if they lose at all.

Not really a valuable observation. Try harder.

Erm.

You do realize, that Plagueis probably is more powerful than TPM Sidious? Just asking.

Originally posted by Nai
Erm.

You do realize, that Plagueis probably is more powerful than TPM Sidious? Just asking. Plagueis biggest accolade is being equal to TPM Sidious though.

Originally posted by Sinious
Plagueis biggest accolade is being equal to TPM Sidious though.

Quote? Source?

Valkorion busts the galaxy.

Originally posted by Nai
Quote? Source? Hmm, I think at the end of the novel it is said(or Sidious says) he surpassed him. Can't look it up now atm. There are also several sources that hint to them being really close as of TPM though. Kind of a grey area.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia



Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

After Plagueis dies the narrator notes there is a gravitic shift in the force towards Palpatine in the prologue of the novel.

Exactly.

Though like I said, none of those outright say they're equals.

The skill and ability to get Plagueis drunk and kill him in his sleep, right.

Thanks for the support Nai.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, I disagree.

On the basis of showings?

Sure.

How so? Fill me with your testicular energies wisdom.

Disintegrating a dozen armored fighters while massively wounded, punching through armored torso's, moving faster than a droids perception, defeating a superior martial combatant through his force connection, midichlorian manipulation. I dunno, read the respect thread.

One could certainly make the argument. I'm not dismissing the possibility as retarded. That's for the unimaginative.

lmao I'm getting bashed by tor people on such a day

Originally posted by Nephthys
Disintegrating a dozen armored fighters while massively wounded,

His best feat, no doubt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
punching through armored torso's,

Plagueis has mad stremph, indeed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
moving faster than a droids perception,

Revan! Scourge has done this.


Originally posted by Nephthys
defeating a superior martial combatant through his force connection,

Vitiate does this in every single fight he's ever been part of, against much more impressive teams/foes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
midichlorian manipulation.

Impressive in terms of knowledge/discovery/mastery, but hardly indicative of his strength in the force, especially compared to someone like Valkorion.

Plagueis has his share of very, very impressive feats, no doubt, but Valkorion's blow his so far out of the water, it's not even comparable. I give Plagueis the benefit of the doubt certainly, he's in my top 5 or 3 Sith. But on showings alone, there's no way that what he's done compares to Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate does this in every single fight he's ever been part of, against much more impressive teams/foes.

I meant in lightsaber combat. Venamis was a better duelist than him yet Plagueis still managed to beat him because he's just that good.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Impressive in terms of knowledge/discovery/mastery, but hardly indicative of his strength in the force, especially compared to someone like Valkorion.

What if Plagueis used it to kill him though? It's not like Vitiate has a response to that.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis has his share of very, very impressive feats, no doubt, but Valkorion's blow his so far out of the water, it's not even comparable. I give Plagueis the benefit of the doubt certainly, he's in my top 5 or 3 Sith. But on showings alone, there's no way that what he's done compares to Valkorion.

I'm not saying that Plaguies' force feats are as good as Vitiates, just that I can see a plausible scenario for him winning. Plagueis attacks Vitiate with his saber. Sure, Vitiate can block it, but with Plagueis' monster-strength and speed it wouldn't exactly be easy. And unlike Arcann, Plagueis isn't gonna get pimp-slapped. With his comparable level of power, Valkorion would need a lengthy force battle to batter Plagueis into submission, all which the latter is battering him into submission as well. Eventually Plagueis just tanks and spanks him.

If Plagueis is in your top 3 or 5 then I don't see why you think theres such a gap between them that Plagueis gets owned. That's ****in' retarded bro.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant in lightsaber combat. Venamis was a better duelist than him yet Plagueis still managed to beat him because he's just that good.

That's fair, but still incomparable to even Arcann imho.

Edit: I shouldn't say incomparable, as that would imply vastly inferior. I more or less meant that such a feat is, at its highest worth, Arcann level. Which even that I still doubt, though not by vast disparity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What if Plagueis used it to kill him though? It's not like Vitiate has a response to that.

Is there any proof that Plagueis can comfortably pull that shit with Valkorion raining on him?



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not saying that Plaguies' force feats are as good as Vitiates, just that I can see a plausible scenario for him winning. Plagueis attacks Vitiate with his saber. Sure, Vitiate can block it, but with Plagueis' monster-strength and speed it wouldn't exactly be easy. And unlike Arcann, Plagueis isn't gonna get pimp-slapped. With his comparable level of power, Valkorion would need a lengthy force battle to batter Plagueis into submission, all which the latter is battering him into submission as well. Eventually Plagueis just tanks and spanks him.

If Plagueis is in your top 3 or 5 then I don't see why you think theres such a gap between them that Plagueis gets owned. That's ****in' retarded bro.

You're misunderstanding my argument. In terms of feats, Plagueis isn't necessarily much better than Arcann, much less Vitiate. I give Plagueis his benefit of the doubt because of his implied power and standing in the Banite Line. But in terms of feats, There's no way in hell Plagueis is closing in on Valkorion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's fair, but still incomparable to even Arcann imho.

That's your opinion.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Is there any proof that Plagueis can comfortably pull that shit with Valkorion raining on him?

Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. It's not as if it suits me to try to prove that. I'd rather it wasn't. However, it's a plausible argument someone could make.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're misunderstanding my argument. In terms of feats, Plagueis isn't necessarily much better than Arcann, much less Vitiate. I give Plagueis his benefit of the doubt because of his implied power and standing in the Banite Line. But in terms of feats, There's no way in hell Plagueis is closing in on Valkorion.

"Well, I disagree."

I don't care if you think Vitiate has better feats or not. He can still lose. All that you asked me was if I think, based on showings, Plagueis beating Valkorion isn't retarded. I just gave you a plausible scenario, as well as the midichlorian argument. Based on showings, it can be argued that Plagueis has the tools to beat him.

Plagueis's physicals are ****ing nuts too.

He can punch through a solid door of Transparisteel, punch through armored torsos, and can fight through failing hearts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. It's not as if it suits me to try to prove that. I'd rather it wasn't. However, it's a plausible argument someone could make.

Arguments being plausible doesn't necessitate them not being "retarded." Someone can argue Luke oneshots Sidious and Valkorion combined via fold space. It's a plausible argument that has evidence and precedent, but practically speaking it's pretty "retarded." Speaking of which, to make such an argument that Plagueis's MM can plausibly defeat Valkorion, one would need plausible evidence for such. So you saying the argument is plausible despite admitting to not have knowledge on the matter strikes me as http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Well, I disagree."

I don't care if you think Vitiate has better feats or not. He can still lose. All that you asked me was if I think, based on showings, Plagueis beating Valkorion isn't retarded. I just gave you a plausible scenario, as well as the midichlorian argument. Based on showings, it can be argued that Plagueis has the tools to beat him.

As I mentioned earlier, an argument being theoretically plausible doesn't make it not "retarded" (In the context of how the term is being used.) Based on showings, Plagueis has legitimately not shown anything that I can imagine would lead someone to believe he cuts down Valkorion. A lot of this is due to circumstance, but in reality his feat against the strike team, Ziost, Arcann, and Arcann again convincingly beat out Plagueis's feats against Venamis and the Maladians.

Though, realistically, opting to quarrel was pretty foolish on my part, given that Plagueis beating Valkorion being retarded solely depends on how McP believes Plagueis beats Valkorion. I just don't really see any good, or, not "retarded" avenues, as far as raw feats are concerned. Add in implications and what not, then yeah, the argument can and has been made.

@ Skillz,

F*** Nai, you're my new hero tbh

This ain't no place for an hero

Even Neph's betrayal will not halt what must be done.

won't halt. *

My phone is stupid, but yeah. Valkorion and his brood have risen above us mere mortals.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even Neph's betrayal will not halt what must be done.
*won't stop (assuming you're going with the Revan quote)

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even Neph's betrayal will not halt what must be done.

The team eats him for lunch. Palpatine at this point was already an absolute monster - and according to Luceno - Plagueis is above TPM Palpatine, before his death at least.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*won't stop (assuming you're going with the Revan quote)
I got over Revan in 2011. Any similarities are not intentional.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The team eats him for lunch. Palpatine at this point was already an absolute monster - and according to Luceno - Plagueis is above TPM Palpatine, before his death at least.
You are assuming that Valkorion will fight on their terms which is unlikely. Valkorion will utterly bombard his opponents to submission before they can close the gap.

Tanking Valkorion powers is not an easy thing. Valkorion wrecked Revan in a span of 2 seconds(?) when he became serious; bombardment was so intense that Revan's body reaching boiling-point and pain was astounding. Now keep in mind that Revan is a Yoda-tier Force-user and his defensive abilities are among the best we have seen yet.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even Neph's betrayal will not halt what must be done.

There is no betrayal. I indicated at the start that I personally lean Valkorion. I'm just not saying it's impossible for Plagueis to win, or for someone to believe so with good cause.

^
For those TOR fanboys any person who will disagree that Vitiate can stomp anybody, will be a traitor.

Valkorion is a planet buster and lightsabers are like glowsticks to him and he can beat Jordan 1 on 1 in a game of pickup and teach Hawking about physics.

What's so impressive about him blocking lightsaber strikes with barrier?

That's just his Hierro tbh.

Originally posted by carthage
What's so impressive about him blocking lightsaber strikes with barrier? This. I mean its just replicated the by the Ones of Mortis and no one else. No big deal.

And Nox. And Thor. And Shaak Ti. And Marek.

Not like Valky bro.

Most people care about the speed at which he does it and the consistency
Originally posted by Trocity
Valkorion is a planet buster and lightsabers are like glowsticks to him and he can beat Jordan 1 on 1 in a game of pickup and teach Hawking about physics.
Valkorion is slower and much older. No way is he beating Jordan 1 on 1.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Arguments being plausible doesn't necessitate them not being "retarded."


Using "retarded" as a perogative is always tasteless, no matter the terms, though.



The word that you couldn't find in your limited dictionary was "unlikely".



We are operating in a fictional realm, comparing opposing forces attacking eachother with attacks fueld by an mystical energy field and you talk about probability?

We have absolutely no idea what Plagueis in the post balance shift state could do in a one on one confrontation, since we don't see him in such circumstances. But now imagine the force wave he used, while injured, to "almost atomize" armed combatants, focused on a single target while in top shape. And I may add: He himself at least believes, that he is more powerful than any Sith before him, while having knowledge about the Sith Emperor. So if we trust his own judgement, he is more powerful than Vitiate pre defeat by the HoT, which is already quite impressive.



While I don't necessarily disagree with your judgement, that doesn't make Neph's argument "retarded". Furthermore: If Plagueis is more powerful than "basic" Vitiate, this could be a hell of a fight.



The aforementioned channeling of raw power against the Maladians directed towards a single target could do quite some damage. And if Plagueis would try to take down Valkorian with his lightsaber, his sheer brute force coupled with his speed may not proof too much for the Eternal Emperor - but it would perhabs be more of a challenge than Arcann's assault against his father.

Originally posted by Nai
Using "retarded" as a perogative is always tasteless, no matter the terms, though.



The word that you couldn't find in your limited dictionary was "unlikely".

I was merely making reference to Sinious's term, hence the quotations surrounding the word. Your insult to my vocabulary was extremely and unnecessarily cruel tho

Originally posted by Nai
We are operating in a fictional realm, comparing opposing forces attacking eachother with attacks fueld by an mystical energy field and you talk about probability?

We have absolutely no idea what Plagueis in the post balance shift state could do in a one on one confrontation, since we don't see him in such circumstances. But now imagine the force wave he used, while injured, to "almost atomize" armed combatants, focused on a single target while in top shape. And I may add: He himself at least believes, that he is more powerful than any Sith before him, while having knowledge about the Sith Emperor. So if we trust his own judgement, he is more powerful than Vitiate pre defeat by the HoT, which is already quite impressive.

Well, I'm arguing in the context of feats only, aka what they have specifically shown, not what they're implied to be capable of doing. While I personally believe the feats-only paradigm is flawed, I was asking how, in terms of feats, Plagueis stacks up to the Immortal Emperor. And while his raw power showing against the Maladians was indeed incredible, The Immortal Emperor has honestly shown, in terms of feats, much greater ability in all areas other than telekinesis.



Originally posted by Nai
While I don't necessarily disagree with your judgement, that doesn't make Neph's argument "retarded". Furthermore: If Plagueis is more powerful than "basic" Vitiate, this could be a hell of a fight.



The aforementioned channeling of raw power against the Maladians directed towards a single target could do quite some damage. And if Plagueis would try to take down Valkorian with his lightsaber, his sheer brute force coupled with his speed may not proof too much for the Eternal Emperor - but it would perhabs be more of a challenge than Arcann's assault against his father.

In the very part you quoted, I stated opting to quarrel was pretty "retarded" of me, given that McP's argument being "retarded" depends on how he presents it. I'm not arguing that Plagueis wouldn't realistically provide more of a challenge than Arcann, rather that if we literally take Plagueis's feats at face value and measure him using only those, that he falls decisively short to the Immortal Emperor overall. Then I went on to say that using Plagueis's implications of his capabilities, then yes, the argument that he can fight the Immortal Emperor excellently can and has been made.

Like you, I'm playing Lucifer's Butt-Buddy. I've got Plagueis in my top 3-5 sith. It's just that I find the ways that I've seen others vouch for him to be pretty amusing.

Lmao

He's no match at all for the two of them together.

Team.

Holy **** no way is he beating both at once lol

Sidious solos in a great fight by himself. Plagueis turns this into a very one-sided battle.

EDIT: Never mind - it's TPM Palpatine. Still, the team wins.

KEK

Either solo.

Team in a good fight.

Team stomps. TPM Sidious and arguably Plagueis could solo.

Nope.

DE Sidious wouldn't beat this team lol.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Nope.
Yes :/
Even if they wouldn't, the fight isn't good lmfao, that is just ridiculous. RotS Sidious is stated to be > Valk, and TPM Sids and Plagueis aren't far away.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
DE Sidious wouldn't beat this team lol.

At very best Luke, depending on yojr ranking of Caedus.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
TPM Sids and Plagueis aren't far away.

What makes you think that?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What makes you think that? The fact that Sidious couldn't train much between TPM and RotS. Also, they are still vastly superior to Bane.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
DE Sidious wouldn't beat this team lol.

Valkorion bringing full power to bare against them should be enough imo. Plagueis and ROTS Sidious probably win though. Unless this a fight to complete destruction and not actual death, in which case; IF Valkorion dies at all he just comes back as a spirit and kills them both anyway.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
The fact that Sidious couldn't train much between TPM and RotS. Also, they are still vastly superior to Bane.

How does their individual superiority to Bane indicate the gap between them and RotS isn't that wide?

Valkorion gets gutted.

Sheev solos

Team utterly dominates. No one is taking him solo, though.

Palpatine takes him alone.

Together, Valkorion gets curbed harder than he will in the upcoming expansion

Post Plagueis death Sidious solos.

Pre-death it's harder to say, but Sidious/Plagueis could still prob solo.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How does their individual superiority to Bane indicate the gap between them and RotS isn't that wide?
Nah, being vastly superior to Bane just suggests that Plaggy is extremely good

Yeah, EoTPM Sidious solos.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine takes him alone.

Together, Valkorion gets curbed harder than he will in the upcoming expansion

Palpatine, as of TPM, stands no chance against Valkorion. Even, as of ROTS, cannot handle him. However, with Darth Plagueis on his side, the duo might find an opening to exploit, if one of them does not falls earlier.

So, even if Valkorion looses his avatar, he would retaliate in disembodied form. Unless specified otherwise.

What is everyone case for TPM Sidious > Valkorion? Because I'm not seeing it in the slightest.

Fanboyism I'd imagine.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What is everyone case for TPM Sidious > Valkorion? Because I'm not seeing it in the slightest.

Influencing the Force on a galactic scale > influencing the Force on a planetary scale; having great dueling skill > having no dueling skill.

Yeah

...Team, I thought it was JKBart making this thread, but like... WTF Ant o-o ....

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What is everyone case for TPM Sidious > Valkorion? Because I'm not seeing it in the slightest.

Originally posted by Azronger
Influencing the Force on a galactic scale > influencing the Force on a planetary scale; having great dueling skill > having no dueling skill. He needed the help of Plagueis to do that, and btw, they failed.

Midichlorians created Anakin of their own will, not through Palpatine.

Valkorion wins TPM around. Against ROTS Sheev and Plageuis, he'll probably still win, but it will be a very good fight.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Valkorion wins TPM around. Against ROTS Sheev and Plageuis, he'll probably still win, but it will be a very good fight. Yeah; no. Take that back, fanboi. NOW.

Lmao.

Originally posted by Azronger
Influencing the Force on a galactic scale > influencing the Force on a planetary scale; having great dueling skill > having no dueling skill.

1. I dunno how you even qualify that in a combative stance given it took months of complex rituals, meditation, among other things. Not to mention, they focused on a rend in the Force already caused by tampering from a earlier RoT Sith Lord.

2. He had help from another Sith Lord on his tier in power; I have no doubt in my mind that Valkorion's could have done the same if he was in Sidious' shoes.

3. Valkorion's combative feats are flat-out superior to Palpatine's during this time period.

4. Good thing he can no-sell Lightsaber shots with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. I dunno how you even qualify that in a combative stance given it took months of complex rituals, meditation, among other things. Not to mention, they focused on a rend in the Force already caused by tampering from a earlier RoT Sith Lord.

2. He had help from another Sith Lord on his tier in power;

Sidious managed to do it without any rituals after the power boost he gained from killing Plagueis. No other entity aside from the Son, Abeloth, and Sarasu Taalon (to my knowledge) have that kind of power.



Quotes for Valkorion imbalancing the Force with his mere presence?



A feats-only approach will get you nowhere.



Good thing Sidious is too skilled and too fast for Valkorion to do that.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He needed the help of Plagueis to do that, and btw, they failed.

Midichlorians created Anakin of their own will, not through Palpatine.

You haven't read the book, apparently.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Yeah; no. Take that back, fanboi. NOW.

I'll keep my opinion, thanks. Feel free to write with discomfort, it's entertaining. Seriously though, I hold Valkorion above DE Sheev, and I'm assuming you are of the opinion that DE Sidious could take on ROTS Palps and Plagueis

I'm not sure anyone thinks DE Sidious would beat ROTS Sidious and Plagueis. Valkorion/Luke wouldn't either.

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm not sure anyone thinks DE Sidious would beat ROTS Sidious and Plagueis. Valkorion/Luke wouldn't either.

I do. And Luke would. Not Valkorion, though.

We already know that Plagueis > Vitiate; it isn't too big of a stretch to say that he's on Valkorion's level.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We already know that Plagueis > Vitiate; it isn't too big of a stretch to say that he's on Valkorion's level. Oh, god; you're one of them.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. I dunno how you even qualify that in a combative stance given it took months of complex rituals, meditation, among other things. Not to mention, they focused on a rend in the Force already caused by tampering from a earlier RoT Sith Lord.

2. He had help from another Sith Lord on his tier in power; I have no doubt in my mind that Valkorion's could have done the same if he was in Sidious' shoes.

3. Valkorion's combative feats are flat-out superior to Palpatine's during this time period.

4. Good thing he can no-sell Lightsaber shots with his bare hands.


I am beginning to appreciate you.

Among the fans of PT or a later era, your views appear to be much more balanced.

Joke thread. Team rapes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I am beginning to appreciate you.

Among the fans of PT or a later era, your views appear to be much more balanced. A good indication that your wrong, DC.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A good indication that your wrong, DC.
You don't get to say that after: http://www.swtor.com/community/archive/index.php/t-651297.html

You should be ashamed of yourself.

The top 3 were accurate, tbh. No idea why Fay is > Vader, though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You don't get to say that after: http://www.swtor.com/community/archive/index.php/t-651297.html

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


7? I'm proud of you beanie.

Sorry Syn, but I've since seen the light.

http://www.actiontrip.com/images/DarthVader_Face.jpg

Been blinded like it more like.

Vader's greatness is dazzling.

Beni throwing shade at Legend, but he forgets who was voted worst member on KMC.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader's greatness is dazzling. Vader was a very weak man.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni throwing shade at Legend, but he forgets who was voted worst member on KMC.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni throwing shade at Legend, but he forgets who was voted worst member on KMC. While your desperate attempts to do so are almost as entertaining as his. Need to try harder tho.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader was a very weak man. Hurr durr.

Originally posted by Azronger
Sidious managed to do it without any rituals after the power boost he gained from killing Plagueis. No other entity aside from the Son, Abeloth, and Sarasu Taalon (to my knowledge) have that kind of power.



Quotes for Valkorion imbalancing the Force with his mere presence?

Haven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.

Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.







LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.





Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I am beginning to appreciate you.

Among the fans of PT or a later era, your views appear to be much more balanced.

Thanks man, I try. xD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hurr durr. In the end he died as a Jedi forsaking Vader for all time. Weak, weak Sith.

Walkorian gets butchered in everything bar sabers, where he contends admirably.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Haven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.

Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.







LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.





Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?





Thanks man, I try. xD

Regarding the ritual, tipping the balance of the Force irrevocably towards the dark side for decades such that the Jedi order's connection to the Cosmic Force diminishes is several orders of magnitude more impressive than even emitting a galaxywide Force disturbance.

To play devil's advocate, how do you know that shift wasn't caused by Plagueis's death, and the implications for galactic events, not Sidious growing super powerful?

Sorry, had to post twice, since I couldn't edit it anymore. The second one is the one that should be addressed.

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Originally posted by The Ellimist
To play devil's advocate, how do you know that shift wasn't caused by Plagueis's death, and the implications for galactic events, not Sidious growing super powerful?

I already gave my alternate explanation.

But anyway, why would the death of an individual have more of an effect than on the galactic balance, than when they were alive, when they had infinitely more power and command of the Force?

Because it set in motion the Great Jedi Purge?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because it set in motion the Great Jedi Purge?

...Which has far more to do with Palpatine's presence than with Plagueis's absence.

Not necessarily, butterfly effect and all.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not necessarily, butterfly effect and all.

By all means elaborate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because it set in motion the Great Jedi Purge?

I thought we were talking about the balance of the Force and not political stuff.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
By all means elaborate.

Well by the butterfly effect I mean that I don't really know, like maybe Plagueis would've sabotaged Palpatine's attempts to turn Anakin, and then gotten unmasked by Yoda, and the two would've been exposed, etc.

In either case, there's no denying that Sidious's killing of Plagueis was of historical importance.

Originally posted by Azronger
I thought we were talking about the balance of the Force and not political stuff.

Killing thousands of Jedi and turning the Chosen One wouldn't have shifted the balance of the Force?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Killing thousands of Jedi and turning the Chosen One wouldn't have shifted the balance of the Force?

Well, yeah. I still don't understand how Plagueis dying over a decade before any of that has anything to do with it, though.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well by the butterfly effect I mean that I don't really know, like maybe Plagueis would've sabotaged Palpatine's attempts to turn Anakin, and then gotten unmasked by Yoda, and the two would've been exposed, etc.

In either case, there's no denying that Sidious's killing of Plagueis was of historical importance.

No one is denying that Sidious killing Plagueis is historically important. But Palpatine's presence is infinitely more important to the events set in motion than Plagueis'a absence.

Yeah but Palpatine was already present beforehand. The real question is whether his boost in power is more important than Plagueis's death.

We're not debating which was more important to the Grand Plan; we're debating which unbalanced the Force right then and there, not a decade later. And the answer to the latter is Sidious' boost.

It's possible that implications on future events balance/unbalance the Force. Canon example: the Force being "awakened", presumably by Rey.

Not sure if it has any relevance, but I recall that Krayt managed to unbalance the Force as well.

Not seeing how Plagueis death did anything to further the Grand Plan bar elevating Sidious, historically little would have gone differently. Evidently though Plagueis death has something to do with this shift i.e. in the sense that the dark side once held by two coalesced around one, making that one more powerful and deepening the shift to the dark side in the process.

More to the point its obvious that Sidious is the spearhead in all this, he dark side has "anointed him", he is the one responsible for the imbalance, hence why balance to the Force is restored with his death, not undone by Plagueis'.

This is actually an excellent point Azronger has raised, I hadn't picked up on the fact it describes an "irrevocable" in the Force. Furthermore if we consider that Maul only senses the imbalance in the Force upon his revival, as opposed to after Plagueis and Sidious ritual, it would seem this shift was even more potent. The Jedi only seem to pick up on the imbalance nearer to the Clone Wars as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not sure if it has any relevance, but I recall that Krayt managed to unbalance the Force as well.

Quote?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's possible that implications on future events balance/unbalance the Force. Canon example: the Force being "awakened", presumably by Rey.

That's not an unbalancing, just a ripple.

Now, do you actually have something to support this theory of yours?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not seeing how Plagueis death did anything to further the Grand Plan bar elevating Sidious, historically little would have gone differently. Evidently though Plagueis death has something to do with this shift i.e. in the sense that the dark side once held by two coalesced around one, making that one more powerful and deepening the shift to the dark side in the process.

More to the point its obvious that Sidious is the spearhead in all this, he dark side has "anointed him", he is the one responsible for the imbalance, hence why balance to the Force is restored with his death, not undone by Plagueis'.

This is actually an excellent point Azronger has raised, I hadn't picked up on the fact it describes an "irrevocable" in the Force. Furthermore if we consider that Maul only senses the imbalance in the Force upon his revival, as opposed to after Plagueis and Sidious ritual, it would seem this shift was even more potent. The Jedi only seem to pick up on the imbalance nearer to the Clone Wars as well.