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This conversation comes up all the goddamn time here and at ComicVine. Tenebrous has exactly two official appearances: in Darth Plagueis and "The Tenebrous Way." Some people think he's a weak feeb, others think he's among the top 5 Sith of all time.

How powerful of a Sith Lord is Tenebrous? Discuss.

Tene is certainly a top 10 Sith, tbh.

Definitely not top ten. Probably top twenty though.

Top 10.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Definitely not top ten. Probably top twenty though.

None of his feats were particularly impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Definitely not top ten. Probably top twenty though.

Originally posted by ares834
None of his feats were particularly impressive.



I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that via powerscaling it'd be weird if he wasn't at least above Dooku level. But he doesn't really have much of leg to stand on in that assertion other than the general idea that he should be close to Plagueis. This board is pretty hard on giving unknowns the benefit of the doubt based on assumptions, for good reasons.

Above Vader and below Plagueis I would say.

LAL @ above Vader.

He's probably the smartest at least in terms of IQ

RO2 Sith are hard to rank in general.

Well I mean, obviously a ways better than Bane and Zannah.

Better than Bane and Zannah for sure

Dooku level seems right imo, as in would probably beat Dooku in a good fight, giving him the benefit of the doubt what with lack of exposure and all.

Tenebrous is really badass, tbh. Being where he stands in the Banite Line alone is testament to his power.

It's hard to say. We have to scale him off of non-peak Plagueis, and Plagueis off of non-peak Sidious.

He's certainly a very *knowledgeable* Sith, and would certainly have a lot of power too, but ranking his specifically is tricky. His best area in the force was his foresight, which is traditionally kinda hard to rank power-wise.

Also, his focus on Science is somewhat unusual. Part of what made him formidable was, unusually, not-force-related.

'Brous has some pretty good barrier and TK showings, at least.

Who has him in the top 5, lol?

Somewhere between Dooku and Vader IMO

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Who has him in the top 5, lol?
No one.

A lot of people tbh, like Jack.

'Brous being top 5 is Ebola worthy.

Below Vader tbh

Tenebrous - unlike Plagueis - seems to be a warrior's type. He should be technically clear superior to Venamis in dueling. That would place him well above Plagueis. He also should be much more powerful then Venamis.
As a Force user, he should be inferior to Plagueis, and his knowledge should be far inferior. But as a fighter? Hard to tell how strong his FL/barriers/Force-guard/TK could be.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Tene is certainly a top 10 Sith, tbh.

Damn, your opinion of him changes so rapidly.

And he is a top 10 Sith in my opinion. Doesn't get good press generally, but then again, from what we have of him, inference is necessary to a degree. That goes for half of OR characters, though

Being part of the Bannite lineage, he would be powerful. However, it is difficult to rank him due to limited information.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Damn, your opinion of him changes so rapidly.
You know, that from our private conversations in the past, that rankings at any given moment mostly has to do with a certain agenda I'm pushing for atm. I finna call it quits debating Star Wars in a bit, and making a case for Tenebrous fuels my last, and final mission.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That goes for half of OR characters, though

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
You gor to know, that from our private conversations in the past, that rankings at a given moment mostly has to do with a certain agenda I'm pushing for atm.

How duplicitous of you.

lol DC you failed your last two missions and then threw them out the window before pursuing a third. I wish you luck that your next mission lasts more than a week.

LAL @ Nova. My influece and campaigns yeild positive results in the long run.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
LAL @ Nova. My influece and campaigns yeild positive results in the long run.

The NJO and Vader wank hasn't gotten anywhere, fool.

It did on CV....KMC is just a bit more...resistant. And my influence is only in infancy here.

He's probably above Vader. The Plagueis/Vader gap is pretty large imo.

Vader level+

Who knows? He's stronger than Bane, probably by more than a little. Other than that is anyone's guess, honestly.

Tenebrous being at the tail-end of the Order of the Sith Lords in of itself makes him considerably, perhaps even vastly, more powerful than Bane.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tenebrous being at the tail-end of the Order of the Sith Lords in of itself makes him considerably, perhaps even vastly, more powerful than Bane.

Venamis is quite probably above Bane.

"quite probably"?

I'd put Tenebrous in between Vader and Caedus. He could split odds with novel Vitiate IMHO.

Vitiate would ragdoll Tenebrous, rofl.

He's basically got no feats
But the few feats that he does have are incredibly impression
His science and his precog are top top top level
He's just under caedus imo

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Somewhere between Dooku and Vader IMO

.

Above both Dooku and Vader tbh (this is of course specifically due to Banite scaling though)

I no longer hold my old opinion on the matter.

DMB gets it. Sorta.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Above both Dooku and Vader tbh (this is of course specifically due to Banite scaling though)

Originally posted by FreshestSlice


He kind of has to be.

There are roughly thirty sith between Bane and Sidious. If you put Tenebrous between Dooku and Vader, you'll find out that you'll run out of room to fit all those pretty quickly, unless if you suggest long periods of effective stagnation or put Bane on like Aayla Secura's level.

Vader eclipses Dooku entirely though, that said Tenny is probably Vader+

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." -Sidious

Vader>Plagueis>Tenebrous confirmed

Originally posted by Rebel95
Vader>Plagueis>Tenebrous confirmed


Well, I doubt it, but the quote should still apply to at least most of the Banite line. Still, Anh Vader>Rots Vader (who grew even more powerful after receiving this accolade btw).

Oh, and there's also this:

Nice Always love finding new quotes to add to the Vader wank

Originally posted by Rebel95
Nice Always love finding new quotes to add to the Vader wank

It should be noted that this is from a novel blurb, so I don't know if it can be trusted, but it's still at least worth noting.

It's not surprising that Anakin has the most innate power. Now, mastery, that's a different story.

Vader shits on Tenebrous -LMAO.

Tenebrous is shit tbh

Vader isn't shitting on Bane, let alone somebody of considerably greater power.

Or maybe all Dashade are compulsive liars.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vader isn't shitting on Bane, let alone somebody of considerably greater power. Originally posted by Rebel95
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." -Sidious

Originally posted by Rebel95
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." -Sidious

Where?

ROTS novel I believe

Well, now that I think about it, Sidious is hardly an infallible source, especially when he's pep talking Anakin.

Im wondering how palpatine can know anakins skills are unmatched by all previous sith lords. You're funny, sheev.

Force Sense tier 10

can read past up to 2000 BBY

It should at least apply to Plagueis and the banite sith

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, now that I think about it, Sidious is hardly an infallible source, especially when he's pep talking Anakin.

Well, it's not like Sidious needed to boost Anakin's ego anymore, given that he had already achieved his goal, i.e. turning Skywalker to the dark side, and it's not like he isn't well aware of how powerful his predecessors were, so the quote should apply to almost all of them. Bearing in mind that this is pre prime Vader.

Besides, most, if not all of Sidious' opinions of Skywalker are actually true, aside perhaps from the instance where he said that Anakin was the best of all Jedi.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Well, it's not like Sidious needed to boost Anakin's ego anymore, given that he had already achieved his goal, i.e. turning Skywalker to the dark side, and it's not like he isn't well aware of how powerful his predecessors were, so the quote should apply to almost all of them. Bearing in mind that this is pre prime Vader.


Do you think Sidious was just making that assertion for the sake of making it? In what universe would the truth-value of it be relevant to him at all? There's no reason to think that he paid attention to whether an unfalsifiable opinion of his is true or not.



How would Sidious know of whether Vader was the most skilled Sith ever or not?

Well I mean I would think it's only logical that he can sense how utterly and completely conflicted his apprentice is and to reassure him he would tell him he was more powerful then his predecessors to encourage the idea that they'll be able to find out how to bring back the dead.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do you think Sidious was just making that assertion for the sake of making it? In what universe would the truth-value of it be relevant to him at all? There's no reason to think that he paid attention to whether an unfalsifiable opinion of his is true or not.



How would Sidious know of whether Vader was the most skilled Sith ever or not?

Your point?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Well I mean I would think it's only logical that he can sense how utterly and completely conflicted his apprentice is and to reassure him he would tell him he was more powerful then his predecessors to encourage the idea that they'll be able to find out how to bring back the dead.

That doesn't explain why Sidious would lie in that instance. It's not like he needed to overhype Anakin to reassure him that they could find those secrets. Those two things have no bearing on each other.

Power and the creation/discovery of new force abilities have no relation?

K den...

You can interpret it however you want but there's no way of disproving the statement

Originally posted by Syndicate
Power and the creation/discovery of new force abilities have no relation?

K den...

No, I said discovery of new powers doesn't contradict Palpatine's assessment of Vader's power compared to previous Banite Sith, especially when Sidious himself didn't know or master those powers at the time as well, and that includes Midichlorian manipulation.

Huh? It's not a canon statement anyway, it's Sidious' claim. Which, like many of his other claims, is at the very least subject to question.

Although, the OOU ones aren't.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
No, I said discovery of new powers doesn't contradict Palpatine's assessment of Vader's power compared to previous Banite Sith, especially when Sidious himself didn't know or master those powers at the time as well.

Fair enough. I'm simply giving a reason why Sidious would have said that without having truly meant it. It's true it can't be disproved but that's one of the reasons I use to back up my assertion that Sidious was just ego boosting. Along with actual comparitive showings of course.

Is the rots novelization not considered canon?

Well, technically whether it's "canon" canon is questionable, but regardless that's not what I meant. Sidious' word isn't the author's word, it's Sidious' word.

When it comes from the perspective/mouth of a character it doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

Like Kas'im being the best duelist in Galactic history in Bane's opinion.

True, it's hard to know. But Sidious would be familiar with the power of the banite sith through his apprenticeship to Plagueis, and in the context of the conversation it didn't seem to me like he would just be saying it to boost Vader's confidence or anything.

No, no, no.

Kas'im was stated to be the best duelist in galactic history from a third person, not-omniscient omniscient perspective and is therefore fact.

And c'mon, Rebel, you're better than this. There isn't a moment in the RotS novel where Palpatine isn't sucking Anakin's cock.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, no, no.

Kas'im was stated to be the best duelist in galactic history from a third person, not-omniscient omniscient perspective and is therefore fact.

Eh?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough. I'm simply giving a reason why Sidious would have said that without having truly meant it. It's true it can't be disproved but that's one of the reasons I use to back up my assertion that Sidious was just ego boosting. Along with actual comparitive showings of course.

He had no reason to ego boost in that instance, though, because, again, Anakin was already his apprentice, so he didn't have to earn his loyalty, unlike when the latter was a Jedi.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Like Kas'im being the best duelist in Galactic history in Bane's opinion.

The difference being that Bane logically had no way to make a comparison between Kas'im and other duelists, given his ignorance at the time, i.e. he was just a trainee. On the other hand, Sidious is well aware of the Sith before him, as well as many of their exploits, especially when it comes to more recent history, given that Plagueis would certainly have told him of his master.

True, you could be right, I'm just saying there's no way to disprove it. And there's really no other distinct way to compare Vader's power to Plagueis or tenebrous so that quote is the best we have. @NewGuy01

Originally posted by Nargaroth
He had no reason to ego boost in that instance, though, because, again, Anakin was already his apprentice, so he didn't have to earn his loyalty, unlike when the latter was a Jedi.



The difference being that Bane logically had no way to make a comparison between Kas'im and other duelists, given his ignorance at the time, i.e. he was just a trainee. On the other hand, Sidious is well aware of the Sith before him, as well as many of their exploits, especially when it comes to more recent history, given that Plagueis would certainly have told him of his master.

I'm not saying he couldn't logically know how powerful his predecessors were I'm simply showing you an example of a character being incorrect despite them thinking/stating it in an official novel.

Personally I go by showings/feats/logic and Anakin simply hasn't desmontrated parity let along superiority to later Sith in the Banite line thus the statement cannot be true.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm not saying he couldn't logically know how powerful his predecessors were I'm simply showing you an example of a character being incorrect despite them thinking/stating it in an official novel.

Personally I go by showings/feats/logic and Anakin simply hasn't desmontrated parity let along superiority to later Sith in the Banite line thus the statement cannot be true.

Ok, but that wasn't exactly a good example.

If we go by feats, Tenebrous isn't better than Bane, and 18 Bby Vader was more powerful than a guy who could pulverize Inquisitors, which at least rivals Plagueis' feat of nearly atomizing Maladian assassins. Regardless, the statement would be false only if Rots Vader's feats clearly demontrated his upper limits, and if his predecessors did better than him. Bearing in mind that Anakin as a Padawan was capable of moving a massive ship.

But in any other instance? Nah, unless of course feats are the only way to compare certain characters.

Bu logically given the purpose of the Banite line he would be. A mix of logic and feats is what we should use imo.

Sure but it doesn't rival a fight between Plagueis and TPM Sidious being up in the air or in Plagueis's favor according to the author or altering the wheather patters of the planet or shifting the balance of the Force.

RotS Vader doesn't really have upper limits as we saw in the Mortis arc in TCW. We have to assume his standard through his various feats and showings in a relatively standard state.

I'd have to disagree with your procedural but to each his own.

What feats do Plagueis and Tenebrous have that are superior to when Vader blows apart the Lylek's carapace (which is stronger than the armor of the Twi'lek soldiers), and reduces them to gore by pulverizing them, or when he pulls a freighter out of the sky and smashes it into the ground? Both of which were well before his prime.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Bu logically given the purpose of the Banite line he would be. A mix of logic and feats is what we should use imo.

Sure but it doesn't rival a fight between Plagueis and TPM Sidious being up in the air or in Plagueis's favor according to the author or altering the wheather patters of the planet or shifting the balance of the Force.

RotS Vader doesn't really have upper limits as we saw in the Mortis arc in TCW. We have to assume his standard through his various feats and showings in a relatively standard state.

I'd have to disagree with your procedural but to each his own.

Let's clarify that I never said Rots Vader is even equal to Plagueis, hence why I said the quote should apply to most of the Banite line. Btw, Plagueis corrupting a planet is a feat replicated by lesser Force users than Vader, and shifting the balance of the Force was done with the aid of Sidious, so that's not a fair comparison.

Of course I'm referring to normal upper limit, not to feats of potential, otherwise Vader would stomp everyone, lol. The point being, let's say that pre prime Tenebrous lifts 100 tons of rock with ease, whereas Vader lifted 60 tons with effort in his prime. Now, that would be one of the cases where feats contradict hype, and it would be reasonable to question such a quote, at least in the absence of other circumstances.

However, such circumstances don't exist here. I'm just saying Rots Vader is above most of the Banite line, nothing more. And if you want to go by feats, Palpatine's adepts were capable of creating Force storms (i.e. the most dangerous dark side technique), albeit with limited control, so I don't find it unreasonable to say that a far better trained Force user like Vader would rival Tenebrous after decades of training, even when assuming he wasn't supposed to surpass his master.

Also, bear in mind that 18 Bby Vader was above a guy who could pulverize Inquisitors, a feat that rivals Plagueis' atomization showing (albeit I'm not saying Vader, even in his prime, is above or even equal to the latter) and by this time his power was considerably below hid Rots self, meaning the latter could do much better, which imo lends credibility to the idea Rots Vader is above most of the Banite line.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
and by this time his power was considerably below hid Rots self
No it wasn't

Well he trained the guy who trained the guy that was Sidious so he's alright. And he has red force lightning which is badass.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Let's clarify that I never said Rots Vader is even equal to Plagueis, hence why I said the quote should apply to most of the Banite line. Btw, Plagueis corrupting a planet is a feat replicated by lesser Force users than Vader, and shifting the balance of the Force was done with the aid of Sidious, so that's not a fair comparison.

Of course I'm referring to normal upper limit, not to feats of potential, otherwise Vader would stomp everyone, lol. The point being, let's say that pre prime Tenebrous lifts 100 tons of rock with ease, whereas Vader lifted 60 tons with effort in his prime. Now, that would be one of the cases where feats contradict hype, and it would be reasonable to question such a quote, at least in the absence of other circumstances.

However, such circumstances don't exist here. I'm just saying Rots Vader is above most of the Banite line, nothing more. And if you want to go by feats, Palpatine's adepts were capable of creating Force storms (i.e. the most dangerous dark side technique), albeit with limited control, so I don't find it unreasonable to say that a far better trained Force user like Vader would rival Tenebrous after decades of training, even when assuming he wasn't supposed to surpass his master.

Also, bear in mind that 18 Bby Vader was above a guy who could pulverize Inquisitors, a feat that rivals Plagueis' atomization showing (albeit I'm not saying Vader, even in his prime, is above or even equal to the latter) and by this time his power was considerably below hid Rots self, meaning the latter could do much better, which imo lends credibility to the idea Rots Vader is above most of the Banite line.

It seemed to be what you were implying. Which force users are you referring to? True enough but accomplishing a feat like that even with aid shows a great deal of power in my view.

Fair enough but Vader's hype is that he has the potential to have 80% of RotS Sidious's power and Anakin's hype while sufficient to place him above if he had unlocked his full potential doesn't really mean much since he didn't accomplish comparable feats when in a standard state.

Well we don't know that for sure as we don't what the disparity between each generation of the banite line was. Adepts could create force storms? Can I get the quote/scan for that? Also regardless of the adepts capabilities it doesn't have much to do with Vader's. Vader wasn't capable of producing force energy without external amps due to his cybernetics and plenty of acolytes had abilities that Vader did not though Vader was of course more powerful then them overall.

Who are you referring to? Also what places Vader below his RotS self?

Tenebrous is hardly top 15 material.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough but Vader's hype is that he has the potential to have 80% of RotS Sidious's power and Anakin's hype while sufficient to place him above if he had unlocked his full potential doesn't really mean much since he didn't accomplish comparable feats when in a standard state.
He wasn't stated to have the potential of 80% of Sidious, he WAS 80%. In fact, Sidious himself believed that if Vader let go of his past and fully embraced the dark side, he would regain his potential. He believed Vader's restrictions were mental, not physical.

That some people rank Tenebrous so lowly implies that there's a huge gap between him and Plagueis, which I find strange, but to each their own, I suppose.

Originally posted by Rebel95
He wasn't stated to have the potential of 80% of Sidious, he WAS 80%. In fact, Sidious himself believed that if Vader let go of his past and fully embraced the dark side, he would regain his potential. He believed Vader's restrictions were mental, not physical.

And Lucas outright contradicts that statement so it doesn't matter.