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Question is on the title.

Based on averages? Frieza

By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?

You like to go by average showings. On average, Frieza has the better feats/showings

Lol...what do you mean "I" like to go by averages and don't use my debating style, base this off of your opinion.

You do. Well you do when it suits you. Anyway based off of average feats Frieza is more durable

Originally posted by juggerman
You do. Well you do when it suits you. Anyway based off of average feats Frieza is more durable

Give me a time where I used "average" showings (instead of overall) please concerning DBZ characters. Also, what AVERAGE showings does Frieza have over the Cell juniors?

Noticed when I said "when it suits you"?

Frieza has tanked hits that shook the planet, crashing thru mountains, and a planet exploding in his face. Cell Jrs. took none of that and were killed by regular ole punches and kicks. By feats Frieza wins in a landslide

Well that is not fair. They were killed by a SSJ2 lol.

Originally posted by juggerman
Noticed when I said "when it suits you"?

Frieza has tanked hits that shook the planet, crashing thru mountains, and a planet exploding in his face. Cell Jrs. took none of that and were killed by regular ole punches and kicks. By feats Frieza wins in a landslide

The Cell Juniors also took hits from the guy who cut Freeza in half. Law of averages against characters who appear in all of 3 chapters is a bit unfair considering Freeza's fight in his second form took up more time.

I'm not saying it's fair or right to go this route. I'm just pointing out that if one DOES go this route Frieza is the winner here

Originally posted by AuraAngel
The Cell Juniors also took hits from the guy who cut Freeza in half. Law of averages against characters who appear in all of 3 chapters is a bit unfair considering Freeza's fight in his second form took up more time.

He's trying to be sarcastic. Messing with me. I know his real answer.

Originally posted by juggerman
I'm not saying it's fair or right to go this route. I'm just pointing out that if one DOES go this route Frieza is the winner here

Could Frieza withstand a punch from a Super Saiyan 2?

There is no reason to go the route of averages in this case. The authorial intent is clear. Cell Juniors could take hits from powerful versions of SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks(who cut Freeza in half). That one feat is all they need frankly.

Averages need only be taken into consideration when we have massive outliers in both directions.

Originally posted by carver9
Could Frieza withstand a punch from a Super Saiyan 2?

Well now what has a punch from a SSJ2 done? What the best feat? Has a SSJ2 punch leveled a mountain? Has it blew up a planet? By feats, Frieza would eat that shit and ask for seconds

I can practically taste the salt through my monitor.

Lol...he's angry at my intake on Superman vs Goku.

Cell Juniors got beaten by Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien. :/

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Cell Juniors got beaten by Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien. :/

When?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I can practically taste the salt through my monitor.



Originally posted by carver9
Lol...he's angry at my intake on Superman vs Goku.

Nope. Not angry at all bud. Anytime you wanna gimme SSJ2 punching feats I'm here

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Cell Juniors got beaten by Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien. :/

They didn't get beaten by them but they did fail to put the humans down

You need a hug.

Some people shouldn't talk about things where their dislike skews perception.

That said a severely weakened sliced in half and blasted again Frieza survived a planet exploding on him with his innards exposed. A stronger than sliced in half Frieza (by a sizable degree) got disintegrated by Trunks easily.

Trunks about like 10 times more powerful couldn't even damage a Cell Jr. SS2 punched them in half easily.

Therefore we can conclude that Gohan does a crazy amount more damage in a focused area than a large planet exploding does. Gohan doesn't need to destroy a house when he can destroy beings dozens of times more powerful than Frieza with a punch. That's all he needs for feats.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Cell Juniors got beaten by Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien. :/
Were we watching the same series? Clearly not.

And lol, that deleted thread you made about Gogeta (the user). You should've gotten at least a warning for that if not more.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee92/PROJEKTxxMURDER/ThisThreadSucks.jpg

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Some people shouldn't talk about things where their dislike skews perception.

That said a severely weakened sliced in half and blasted again Frieza survived a planet exploding on him with his innards exposed. A stronger than sliced in half Frieza (by a sizable degree) got disintegrated by Trunks easily.

Trunks about like 10 times more powerful couldn't even damage a Cell Jr. SS2 punched them in half easily.

Therefore we can conclude that Gohan does a crazy amount more damage in a focused area than a large planet exploding does. Gohan doesn't need to destroy a house when he can destroy beings dozens of times more powerful than Frieza with a punch. That's all he needs for feats.

Hhhhmmmm, good point. I would also like to add that Gohan two punches did far more damage than the 3 planet busters Cell endured (the one from both Vegeta and Goku, then Gohan planet buster that overtook cell planet buster).

Someone kick Juggerman and Carver out of here.

This thread is literally the equivalent to SSJ Goten vs. Demon King Piccolo.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Someone kick Juggerman and Carver out of here.

This thread is literally the equivalent to SSJ Goten vs. Demon King Piccolo.



Yea seriously, this thread ruined my night.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial


Yea seriously, this thread ruined my night.

Same. I'd rather see another Goku vs Superman thread. At least he makes it past planet level.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Trunks about like 10 times more powerful

Not even close

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Someone kick Juggerman and Carver out of here.

This thread is literally the equivalent to SSJ Goten vs. Demon King Piccolo.

Well that's not very nice at all

Originally posted by juggerman
Not even close



Well that's not very nice at all

How many times more powerful was he compared to his showing against Frieza?

Originally posted by carver9
How many times more powerful was he compared to his showing against Frieza?

Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

I think it was galan who broke it down but I'm not entirely sure. Basically the increases from the time chamber were indeed huge but were much less than most people think. Let's say Trunks goes in the chamber with a PL of 150 mil right? And he comes out with a PL 151 mil. At first it doesn't seem like a huge bump but when you think about it, 1 million is about the difference between a normal human and second form Frieza. And we know that is a HUGE difference in power. So even increases of around 1 million would still be considered giant leaps in power.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy

Originally posted by juggerman
Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

I think it was galan who broke it down but I'm not entirely sure. Basically the increases from the time chamber were indeed huge but were much less than most people think. Let's say Trunks goes in the chamber with a PL of 150 mil right? And he comes out with a PL 151 mil. At first it doesn't seem like a huge bump but when you think about it, 1 million is about the difference between a normal human and second form Frieza. And we know that is a HUGE difference in power. So increases of around 1 million would still be considered giant leaps in power.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy

Good point but I don't think doubling the power of a super Saiyan would put them at the point of being able to punch beings that are greater than Super Saiyans 1 to dust with a single hit (Gohan vs Cell Juniors) or punch Cell twice damaging him. I think 10 times is reasonable imo. Is there an official power level guide for beings during the Cell saga? I would presume Cell was in the billions or high 100 millions.

one million is not really that much though. Wasn't 100% Frieza 120m and SSJ Goku 150m.

The advantage was not so great where it was not a fight, and that was a difference of 30m.


I feel like gauging stuff like that should be done in percent of power. (e.g. SSJ 2 Gohan was 100% stronger than Perfect Cell.)

Originally posted by carver9
Good point but I don't think doubling the power of a super Saiyan would put them at the point of being able to punch beings that are greater than Super Saiyans 1 to dust with a single hit (Gohan vs Cell Juniors) or punch Cell twice damaging him. I think 10 times is reasonable imo. Is there an official power level guide for beings during the Cell saga? I would presume Cell was in the billions or high 100 millions.

I don't think there is but it has been confirmed that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning Cell is probably not in the billions.

Originally posted by bbrem123
one million is not really that much though. Wasn't 100% Frieza 120m and SSJ Goku 150m.

The advantage was not so great where it was not a fight, and that was a difference of 30m.


I feel like gauging stuff like that should be done in percent of power. (e.g. SSJ 2 Gohan was 100% stronger than Perfect Cell.)

It's not that much in the grand scheme I agree but remember in the Frieza Saga Vegeta was stomping dudes with a difference in power of less than 5K.

Now I'm not saying all Trunks increased was 1 million, I'm saying an increase of only 1 million would still be pretty big. He could have increased 30 million for all we know. But we do know he did not double his power

SSJ2 Gohan was less than twice as strong as Perfect Cell

Yea I hear ya. I was just getting to the point that 5k for vegeta was more like 15% power or whatever it was. where 1m to frieza is less than 1%

Fair point. As I said Trunks could have increased 30 million or more for all we know. We really have no way of knowing for sure. But we do know he didn't double his power. Not even close

agreed

People online thinks different. We honestly don't know but I can see more than double the amp here.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_real_MOST_ACCURATE_list_of_power_levels

Originally posted by carver9
People online thinks different. We honestly don't know but I can see more than double the amp here.

Since when is "people online" a valid source? We know from official sources that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Therefore we also know that no one doubled the power of SSJ1 until Gohan did against Cell. It's really that simple

Originally posted by juggerman
Since when is "people online" a valid source? We know from official sources that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Therefore we also know that no one doubled the power of SSJ1 until Gohan did against Cell. It's really that simple

Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have a set power level though. Super Saiyan 1 Gohan during the time he fought Cell was>>>>Super Saiyan 1 Goku that fought Frieza. You can't use the lowest level of Super Saiyan to judge how powerful a Super Saiyan 2 is.

Originally posted by carver9
Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have a set power level though. Super Saiyan 1 Gohan during the time he fought Cell was>>>>Super Saiyan 1 Goku that fought Frieza. You can't use the lowest level of Super Saiyan to judge how powerful a Super Saiyan 2 is.

I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise

If anything doesn't make sense it's SSJ being a 50x amp in the first place. SSJ2 is just fine as-is.

Also, between his base stats increasing and further perfection of the SSJ transformation, I'd say Trunks' PL multiplying is more than reasonable. Don't assume all SSJ's are equal by virtue of being SSJ.

Originally posted by juggerman
I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise

Disagree. Goku trained a lot, a hellava lot for it not to be doubled to what it was before. Piccolo became stronger after his training in the chamber (remember, he was greater than a Super Saiyan before entering the chamber) and he was still fodder to Goku who didn't even go Super Saiyan 2 during the Cell games. I feel safe at saying Gohan Super Saiyan 2 is at the minimum 5 times greater than Goku SSJ form during the Namek saga.

5x actually might be ridiculous lowballing ngl.

Hence the problem with numbers.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If anything doesn't make sense it's SSJ being a 50x amp in the first place. SSJ2 is just fine as-is.

Also, between his base stats increasing and further perfection of the SSJ transformation, I'd say Trunks' PL multiplying is more than reasonable. Don't assume all SSJ's are equal by virtue of being SSJ.

The problem with that is if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was so common then there wouldn't have been the outright shock and awe when Gohan only doubled his power against Cell

Originally posted by carver9
Disagree. Goku trained a lot, a hellava lot for it not to be doubled to what it was before. Piccolo became stronger after his training in the chamber (remember, he was greater than a Super Saiyan before entering the chamber) and he was still fodder to Goku who didn't even go Super Saiyan 2 during the Cell games. I feel safe at saying Gohan Super Saiyan 2 is at the minimum 5 times greater than Goku SSJ form during the Namek saga.

Don't disagree with me B!TCH!!

After Namek the ridiculous gains stopped for some unknown reason. Again if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was common then there would have been no suprize when Gohan went SSJ2. In fact there would have been no need for SSJ2 to begin with

Originally posted by juggerman




Don't disagree with me B!TCH!!

After Namek the ridiculous gains stopped for some unknown reason. Again if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was common then there would have been no suprize when Gohan went SSJ2. In fact there would have been no need for SSJ2 to begin with



You're wrong though. Remember, Gohan was fighting near evenly with Cell before going Super Saiyan 2 (and he was in his Super Saiyan form)... a double amp would be incredible for someone that was already extremely powerful. So yes, the shock they had was well worth it.

Originally posted by carver9


You're wrong though. Remember, Gohan was fighting near evenly with Cell before going Super Saiyan 2 (and he was in his Super Saiyan form)... a double amp would be incredible for someone that was already extremely powerful. So yes, the shock they had was well worth it.

I isn't wrong. You are saying SSJ Goku/Trunks/Vegeta already were more than doubling in power since Frieza so another amp exactly the same would not be something to be shocked about. Yeah they would be impressed at his new power but they were outright stupefied by this gain. That kinda kills your stance in it's tracks

It really doesn't since I originally said they were MORE THAN double Super Saiyan 1 Goku in power. The one that fought Frieza.

But they weren't. Nothing at all points to this. Stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek? Of course. Double his power? Not a chance

It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole.

Originally posted by juggerman
Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

I think it was galan who broke it down but I'm not entirely sure. Basically the increases from the time chamber were indeed huge but were much less than most people think. Let's say Trunks goes in the chamber with a PL of 150 mil right? And he comes out with a PL 151 mil. At first it doesn't seem like a huge bump but when you think about it, 1 million is about the difference between a normal human and second form Frieza. And we know that is a HUGE difference in power. So even increases of around 1 million would still be considered giant leaps in power.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy You realize Trunks got one shotted by Android 17 and then surpassed Perfect Cell in power don't you? Like that's all that needs to be said.

And even Android 16 said Cell shouldn't be that strong based on him absorbing 18 which indicates it wasn't just Cell adding her power to his but it was a larger transformation. So at the very least we have Android 16 + Android 18 + Android 17 which would make him at the very least 3 times more powerful.

However to put some context into it, Android 17 was strong enough to take out Trunks with one shot which was emphasized later on. Cell (Android 16) was strong enough to one shot Android 17 twice. Then after 17 he was able to one shot Android 16 (who even though was said to be equal to Cell, he beat the shit out of him). Then Perfect Cell. Who I needn't say anything about.

Not to mention Trunks who was so terrified of the Androids said the prior timelines Androids are unbelievably more powerful than them. And his timelines Androids were stated to be way beyond Frieza.


And power levels aren't static indicators of anything. Goku got thousands of times more powerful from DB to DBZ before he turned SS. He didn't secretly tap into SSGod to achieve this. A more recent example is SS2 Vegeta being more powerful than SS3 Goku by a large degree. He wasn't secretly SS4. A double triple or 8 times power level is meaningless in figuring out transformations. The only thing that is absolute in this is that SS2 will always be a double powerup from SS1 and so on. If Goku became SS3 against Frieza he would still be weaker than Buu era SS1.

Also lol at Cell only being around twice as powerful as Frieza. Or 1 million being huge. Goku was 30 million above Frieza and was still in the fight of his life.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole. I think people hate DBZ so much they start to delude themselves that they're right on complete nonsense.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You realize Trunks got one shotted by Android 17 and then surpassed Perfect Cell in power don't you? Like that's all that needs to be said.

And even Android 16 said Cell shouldn't be that strong based on him absorbing 18 which indicates it wasn't just Cell adding her power to his but it was a larger transformation. So at the very least we have Android 16 + Android 18 + Android 17 which would make him at the very least 3 times more powerful.

However to put some context into it, Android 17 was strong enough to take out Trunks with one shot which was emphasized later on. Cell (Android 16) was strong enough to one shot Android 17 twice. Then after 17 he was able to one shot Android 16 (who even though was said to be equal to Cell, he beat the shit out of him). Then Perfect Cell. Who I needn't say anything about.

Not to mention Trunks who was so terrified of the Androids said the prior timelines Androids are unbelievably more powerful than them. And his timelines Androids were stated to be way beyond Frieza.


And power levels aren't static indicators of anything. Goku got thousands of times more powerful from DB to DBZ before he turned SS. He didn't secretly tap into SSGod to achieve this. A more recent example is SS2 Vegeta being more powerful than SS3 Goku by a large degree. He wasn't secretly SS4. A double triple or 8 times power level is meaningless in figuring out transformations. The only thing that is absolute in this is that SS2 will always be a double powerup from SS1 and so on. If Goku became SS3 against Frieza he would still be weaker than Buu era SS1.

Also lol at Cell only being around twice as powerful as Frieza. Or 1 million being huge. Goku was 30 million above Frieza and was still in the fight of his life.

Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think people hate DBZ so much they start to delude themselves that they're right on complete nonsense.

I love DBZ

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole.

What ever would give you that idea.

But I agree this is a silly thread

Originally posted by juggerman
I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise

Sure he did. One year after the Namek Saga Goku was deflecting blows from Trunks' sword with his finger. The same blows that, according to Trunks, would have annihilated a stronger version of Frieza. Then he trained for years to face the Androids, was still inferior to them, and they weren't even able to compete with Semi-Perfect Cell, not to mention the leagues more powerful Perfect Cell. Who, post-ROSAT, Goku was able to contend with.

Sure, none of the individual jumps in power were as supermassive as Gohan's 2x, but collectively? Oh yeah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure he did. One year after the Namek Saga Goku was deflecting blows from Trunks' sword with his finger. The same blows that, according to Trunks, would have annihilated a stronger version of Frieza. Then he trained for years to face the Androids, was still inferior to them, and they weren't even able to compete with Semi-Perfect Cell, not to mention the leagues more powerful Perfect Cell. Who, post-ROSAT, Goku was able to contend with.

Sure, none of the individual jumps in power were as supermassive as Gohan's 2x, but collectively? Oh yeah.

Goku didn't increase much during the 3 years because he trained with the much weaker Gohan and Piccolo. The only real boost he got during that whole Saga was the chamber

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku didn't increase much during the 3 years because he trained with the much weaker Gohan and Piccolo. The only real boost he got during that whole Saga was the chamber

Regardless, every improvement contributes. Again, the level of strength he gained between Frieza's defeat and the meeting with Trunks alone is astonishing, and by the Android saga he was even stronger than that. Regardless, Semi-Perfect Cell could have defeated him with a single blow, and Perfect Cell is on a completely different level.

It's not hard to understand why people think SSJ Goku (Cell Games) could deal with Frieza a lot more easily than SSJ2 Gohan did with Cell.

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense Post a scan that says Goku was massively holding back.

An increase of a million was big. Until SS came alone. Then it became meaningless. Hell even Piccolo completely shattered that expectation when he hovered around heart disease Goku level prior to his fusion. The fact that Goku was 30 million above Frieza proves a million became meaningless. That's a quarter of Frieza's power.

Because they stopped tripling their power like that once they hit Gohan level prior to Buu. Even after 7 years Vegeta and Goku although higher than Gohan were still comparing their power to his in SS2 forms. Like I said that you completely ignored, Goku got tens of thousands of times stronger from DB to the Namek saga. Hell he got thousands of times stronger from the start of DBZ to the Namek saga.

Because they hit a limit at that level. And Cell only achieved his power from absorbing beings. He can't do that in the middle of battle and he didn't even know SS2 existed. I don't get how this becomes a point for you. Cell wanted to piss Gohan off because he's an ass hole and paid the price. That's all.
I don't get how you're comparing 5 years of training for Gohan and Goku to Cell in the middle of battle. The only one who didn't train for over 5 years from Frieza to Cell is Trunks and he trained 2 years at least still of only training. So yeah, that's why they were jumping up that high. Vegeta for example trained 3 years weighing 200 tons in the gravity machine. Then 2 years of only training. And a year of probably something from Namek exploding to Goku's arrival.

Originally posted by juggerman
I love DBZ

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense

How many times more powerful is Perfect Cell over Frieza?

Freeza was heavily suppressed on earth...

Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!":
http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.

There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature:
http://i.imgur.com/6CpebQg.png


Anyway, we know that Freeza only starts bulking up noticeably when he uses upwards of 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there(by a long-shot) was Vegeta, who *might* have had a PL in the low millions. He didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours, and he certainly had no clue about Trunks. That said, Freeza would have had NO reason to be accessing higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) It makes much more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself.

This is important because after Trunks appeared and went SSJ, Freeza wasn't shown or stated to have powered up at all. Tbh, he really didn't get a chance to--Trunks was all over him. This, imo, explains how Trunks was able to beat Freeza with such ease, when he was 'only' equal in power to Namek-saga SSJ Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Regardless, every improvement contributes. Again, the level of strength he gained between Frieza's defeat and the meeting with Trunks alone is astonishing, and by the Android saga he was even stronger than that. Regardless, Semi-Perfect Cell could have defeated him with a single blow, and Perfect Cell is on a completely different level.

It's not hard to understand why people think SSJ Goku (Cell Games) could deal with Frieza a lot more easily than SSJ2 Gohan did with Cell.

Yes it does contribute. But look at it this way,

Trunks was less than 30 million stronger than Frieza and made him look like a feeb. So what that tells us is that you don't need to be anywhere near double your opponent's power to treat them like fodder. This has been shown to us multiple times in DBZ if you need further examples.

Anyway, Less than 30 to treat him that way, which means that the androids wouldn't need to be THAT much stronger than Trunks and company to treat them like they were trash. Same with Cell and droids, Super Vegeta and Cell and so on. This idea that they had to be multiple times stronger isn't necessarily the case

But yes Cell Game Goku could deal with Frieza more easily than Gohan and Cell because we already saw a peer of Goku's(Trunks) handle him much more easily already. An even stronger Goku isn't needed

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Post a scan that says Goku was massively holding back.

An increase of a million was big. Until SS came alone. Then it became meaningless. Hell even Piccolo completely shattered that expectation when he hovered around heart disease Goku level prior to his fusion. The fact that Goku was 30 million above Frieza proves a million became meaningless. That's a quarter of Frieza's power.

Because they stopped tripling their power like that once they hit Gohan level prior to Buu. Even after 7 years Vegeta and Goku although higher than Gohan were still comparing their power to his in SS2 forms. Like I said that you completely ignored, Goku got tens of thousands of times stronger from DB to the Namek saga. Hell he got thousands of times stronger from the start of DBZ to the Namek saga.

Because they hit a limit at that level. And Cell only achieved his power from absorbing beings. He can't do that in the middle of battle and he didn't even know SS2 existed. I don't get how this becomes a point for you. Cell wanted to piss Gohan off because he's an ass hole and paid the price. That's all.
I don't get how you're comparing 5 years of training for Gohan and Goku to Cell in the middle of battle. The only one who didn't train for over 5 years from Frieza to Cell is Trunks and he trained 2 years at least still of only training. So yeah, that's why they were jumping up that high. Vegeta for example trained 3 years weighing 200 tons in the gravity machine. Then 2 years of only training. And a year of probably something from Namek exploding to Goku's arrival.

SSJ Goku was equal to SSJ Trunks as per the canon PL's released. We see what Trunks did to an even stronger Frieza. Goku wasn't going all out or else he would have killed Frieza right away

I never said a million would be a game changer later on. But regardless of what you think about it it is still a major difference seeing as how humans are literally nothing to second form Frieza

And like I said that YOU ignored, Increased like that stopped after Namek. There was never one recorded increase anywhere close to that after Fireza. Either Akira forgot or just didn't like doing it. But they did stop

During the three years of training Vegeta got to around Goku's level. Maybe a little higher but it wasn't confirmed one way or the other. This is told to us by Piccolo(I think) when he stated that Vegeta MIGHT even be stronger than Goku now. Cell knew how much power he had, he also knew how powerful Gohan was. He pushed Gohan expecting an increase similar to what Vegeta and Trunks came back with when they fought him. Again, had they made progress above double Cell would not have pushed Gohan. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by One Big Mob


You're opinion on this matter means less than nothing to me. Me having a difference of opinion of the number(which really don't matter in the grand scheme btw) means I somehow now dislike it now? What a crock

Originally posted by carver9
How many times more powerful is Perfect Cell over Frieza?

No clue since PL's weren't given after Frieza

Originally posted by Galan007
Freeza was heavily suppressed on earth...

Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!":
http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.

There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature:
http://i.imgur.com/6CpebQg.png


Anyway, we know that Freeza only starts bulking up noticeably when he uses upwards of 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there(by a long-shot) was Vegeta, who *might* have had a PL in the low millions. He didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours, and he certainly had no clue about Trunks. That said, Freeza would have had NO reason to be accessing higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) It makes much more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself.

This is important because after Trunks appeared and went SSJ, Freeza wasn't shown or stated to have powered up at all. Tbh, he really didn't get a chance to--Trunks was all over him. This, imo, explains how Trunks was able to beat Freeza with such ease, when he was 'only' equal in power to Namek-saga SSJ Goku.

Ah ok I stand corrected.

Where do you stand on the whole "Z-Warriors got many multiple times stronger between Frieza and Cell" idea?

@Juggerman...

If you had to guess, how much more powerful was Cell over Frieza? 2, 3, 5 time more powerful? What do you think?

Based on their awestruck reactions to SSJ2 Gohan(who 'only' received a 2x boost), I completely disagree. Hell, Goku was convinced that NO amount of training could increase his power that much.

Additionally, Androids 19 & 20, who I believe were each around Freeza-level, still considered Yamcha's energies(which were around 30k, max) to be a substantial 'meal' for them. So yeah...

This thread makes my head hurt.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on their awestruck reactions to SSJ2 Gohan(who 'only' received a 2x boost), I completely disagree. Hell, Goku was convinced that NO amount of training could increase his power that much.

Additionally, Androids 19 & 20, who I believe were each around Freeza-level, still considered Yamcha's energies(which were around 30k, max) to be a substantial 'meal' for them. So yeah...

The androids around Frieza level? What in the world.

Sorry, should have specified: suppressed 4th form Freeza-level.

Originally posted by juggerman
SSJ Goku was equal to SSJ Trunks as per the canon PL's released. We see what Trunks did to an even stronger Frieza. Goku wasn't going all out or else he would have killed Frieza right away

I never said a million would be a game changer later on. But regardless of what you think about it it is still a major difference seeing as how humans are literally nothing to second form Frieza

And like I said that YOU ignored, Increased like that stopped after Namek. There was never one recorded increase anywhere close to that after Fireza. Either Akira forgot or just didn't like doing it. But they did stop

During the three years of training Vegeta got to around Goku's level. Maybe a little higher but it wasn't confirmed one way or the other. This is told to us by Piccolo(I think) when he stated that Vegeta MIGHT even be stronger than Goku now. Cell knew how much power he had, he also knew how powerful Gohan was. He pushed Gohan expecting an increase similar to what Vegeta and Trunks came back with when they fought him. Again, had they made progress above double Cell would not have pushed Gohan. It's really that simple. And Trunks had a sword that instantly cut Frieza in half. As well as Frieza being suppressed (mind you he himself said he was more powerful...). No Goku was never stated to be massively holding back. One of the hardest fights of his life and he was actually holding back the entire time?

But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...

In Trunks' timeline Android 17 was apparently more than twice as powerful as Gohan when he wasn't holding back.
http://i67.tinypic.com/35bryv6.jpg


And Gohan was around Trunks level with one arm (which means he was around Goku level as well)
http://i66.tinypic.com/33k6lo3.jpg



And in the main timeline, the Androids were much stronger than Trunks' timeline.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6o6wx.jpg


Which would more than strongly imply they were more than twice Frieza's power. Which means if they reached that level, they would have gotten double the power of Frieza, and Trunks. And when they can manhandle a being that absorbed Android 17 who could utterly manhandle Android at a starting level (and Android 16 says that Cell shouldn't be that strong in Perfect Form which indicates it wasn't just simple addition, or at the very least it was), that indicates at the very least that they are 4 times stronger than Frieza and Trunks again. Considering Trunks actually got stronger than Perfect Cell who absorbed a being around twice as strong as his starting point (Trunks), that works out to around 6 times as powerful as a low estimate.
I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.

Now Trunks may or may not have been operating at that level when fighting the Cell Jrs, but we do know for a fact that his double ascended form was not a double multiplier (based on Cell being one shotted by Gohan). Which would mean his SS form had to have been at least above 450 million. Which would mean his starting point of 150 million more than doubled. And that's an absolutely low estimate of his power too. So when a Trunks who at the lowest is 3 times more powerful than Frieza and he can't damage Cell Jrs, it means that your entire point in this thread is wrong. Well, it would be when even a Trunks saga Trunks can't damage a Cell Jr but you get the point. Which means that you playing coy with Carver about SS2 having no feats just makes you look like an ass in the process.



As to the rest of your post... the increases stopped after the Cell Saga, not the Namek Saga. How else would we explain the Androids being eclipsed so completely and utterly? And then the increases apparently started anew when Super began.


And your post about Vegeta doesn't make sense again in response to Gohan. You're not speaking of cases where they go away and train for a while, in both examples you're using, Cell already knew exactly of their powers from their fights from the actual timeframe. Vegeta didn't fight Cell, lose, and then come back and eclipse him. The actual training is largely irrelevant in your example. Cell didn't have a starting point to judge things off of. Unless you considering him thinking Vegeta was a maggot when he first challenged him.
And the whole Cell pissing off Gohan thing was just Cell's way of testing a new power like Vegeta pride. Considering Gohan was already near his level, Cell goading him to get new power was a dumb move already. It was unexpected on his part but that doesn't mean that it overrules previous levels. Had Goku level Trunks transformed into SS2 at that level, he still would have gotten his ass handed to him by Semi Perfect Cell. Probably even Android 16. If they keep getting stronger however, and still have a double powerup in the back pocket at anytime, then that opens up a lot of doors for them. Which is why Gohan's transformation was so impressive. Because he was already near Cell's level when Cell was actually going all out. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks could only get near Cell's all out level when they massively slow themselves down to a point of not being able to hit him, but Gohan can then go double that with way more speed and power. And had Gohan continued to train, conceivably even beyond that to a large degree.

Originally posted by juggerman
You're opinion on this matter means less than nothing to me. Me having a difference of opinion of the number(which really don't matter in the grand scheme btw) means I somehow now dislike it now? What a crock All you do on this forum is argue against DBZ. It'd be like Carver saying he likes Superman. It isn't just this instance.

Having more grounded opinions isn't tantamount to disliking something.

He dislike DBZ characters though. It's obvious. I've never seen the guy go for DBZ characters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the obvious.

Originally posted by juggerman
What ever would give you that idea.

But I agree this is a silly thread

Because I know you have a good knowledge regarding DBZ, I saw that on the occasions we had to talk about it.
This is why I'm sure you are trolling when, for example, you are writing this:

Originally posted by juggerman
Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

Originally posted by carver9
@Juggerman...

If you had to guess, how much more powerful was Cell over Frieza? 2, 3, 5 time more powerful? What do you think?

Somewhere between 3 and 4 I'd guess

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Having more grounded opinions isn't tantamount to disliking something.

Thank you

Originally posted by carver9
He dislike DBZ characters though. It's obvious. I've never seen the guy go for DBZ characters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the obvious.

I really don't dislike them I just hate the wanking. And the only time I argued against DBZ was in regards to Superman. That hardly equates to me never going for DBZ carv

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Because I know you have a good knowledge regarding DBZ, I saw that on the occasions we had to talk about it.
This is why I'm sure you are trolling when, for example, you are writing this:

Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about)

Originally posted by One Big Mob
And Trunks had a sword that instantly cut Frieza in half. As well as Frieza being suppressed (mind you he himself said he was more powerful...). No Goku was never stated to be massively holding back. One of the hardest fights of his life and he was actually holding back the entire time?

But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...

In Trunks' timeline Android 17 was apparently more than twice as powerful as Gohan when he wasn't holding back.
http://i67.tinypic.com/35bryv6.jpg


And Gohan was around Trunks level with one arm (which means he was around Goku level as well)
http://i66.tinypic.com/33k6lo3.jpg



And in the main timeline, the Androids were much stronger than Trunks' timeline.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6o6wx.jpg


Which would more than strongly imply they were more than twice Frieza's power. Which means if they reached that level, they would have gotten double the power of Frieza, and Trunks. And when they can manhandle a being that absorbed Android 17 who could utterly manhandle Android at a starting level (and Android 16 says that Cell shouldn't be that strong in Perfect Form which indicates it wasn't just simple addition, or at the very least it was), that indicates at the very least that they are 4 times stronger than Frieza and Trunks again. Considering Trunks actually got stronger than Perfect Cell who absorbed a being around twice as strong as his starting point (Trunks), that works out to around 6 times as powerful as a low estimate.
I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.

Now Trunks may or may not have been operating at that level when fighting the Cell Jrs, but we do know for a fact that his double ascended form was not a double multiplier (based on Cell being one shotted by Gohan). Which would mean his SS form had to have been at least above 450 million. Which would mean his starting point of 150 million more than doubled. And that's an absolutely low estimate of his power too. So when a Trunks who at the lowest is 3 times more powerful than Frieza and he can't damage Cell Jrs, it means that your entire point in this thread is wrong. Well, it would be when even a Trunks saga Trunks can't damage a Cell Jr but you get the point. Which means that you playing coy with Carver about SS2 having no feats just makes you look like an ass in the process.



As to the rest of your post... the increases stopped after the Cell Saga, not the Namek Saga. How else would we explain the Androids being eclipsed so completely and utterly? And then the increases apparently started anew when Super began.


And your post about Vegeta doesn't make sense again in response to Gohan. You're not speaking of cases where they go away and train for a while, in both examples you're using, Cell already knew exactly of their powers from their fights from the actual timeframe. Vegeta didn't fight Cell, lose, and then come back and eclipse him. The actual training is largely irrelevant in your example. Cell didn't have a starting point to judge things off of. Unless you considering him thinking Vegeta was a maggot when he first challenged him.
And the whole Cell pissing off Gohan thing was just Cell's way of testing a new power like Vegeta pride. Considering Gohan was already near his level, Cell goading him to get new power was a dumb move already. It was unexpected on his part but that doesn't mean that it overrules previous levels. Had Goku level Trunks transformed into SS2 at that level, he still would have gotten his ass handed to him by Semi Perfect Cell. Probably even Android 16. If they keep getting stronger however, and still have a double powerup in the back pocket at anytime, then that opens up a lot of doors for them. Which is why Gohan's transformation was so impressive. Because he was already near Cell's level when Cell was actually going all out. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks could only get near Cell's all out level when they massively slow themselves down to a point of not being able to hit him, but Gohan can then go double that with way more speed and power. And had Gohan continued to train, conceivably even beyond that to a large degree.

All you do on this forum is argue against DBZ. It'd be like Carver saying he likes Superman. It isn't just this instance.

I admitted I was mistaken about Trunks vs Frieza. I didn't realize Frieza was heavily suppressed

Here's where you are making a mistake tho: You don't have to be double someone's power to completely own them. Look at the fights on Namek for example. Vegeta was less than 10% stronger than Dodoria and treating him like garbage. Similar with Zarbon after Vegeta got beat down. You make it seem like the only way the Androids could have beaten up Trunks and company was if they were multiple times their strength and that has never been the case. Hell it goes all the way back to DB where we see guys beating each other down with similar differences in power

The androids could have been around 10% stronger than Trunks to treat him like nothing. Hell Vegeta was actually on par with 18 and only lost cuz her energy doesn't drain. So no they were not double Frieza's power

Can you post the Daizenshuu numbers you are referring to? I only remember them going up to the very beginning of Androids Saga. If there are more than that could put this whole thing to bed.

You are making up power levels. Also, as carver himself pointed out earlier in the thread, I was just messing with him. I didn't expect you or others to get all up in arms over it.

I explain the increases like they've always been explained in Db and DBZ. a 5%-10% difference in power has always been shown to be MASSIVE. That has literal been the rule from jump. You and other seem to have forgotten that little bit

It does make sense in regard to Gohan. Cell had detailed files on all of the Z Warriors. He knew what their power was. Then he felt some of them up close himself and he absorbed 17 and we know 17 fought first hand against Vegeta and company. Cell would have been well informed about Vegeta. Now in about a day Vegeta would have, IYO, doubled/tripled or more his power and fought Semi Perfect Cell. Cell had no idea how Vegeta gained that power so to goad Gohan, who needed much less of a boost than Vegeta got wouldn't make sense.

I argued against DBZ against Superman. That's it. When else did I argue against them? It's hilarious that I say DBZ can't win one fight and all of a sudden fanboys jump out from the wood work and go "U H8 DBZ DERPY DERP!11!!!!11"

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, should have specified: suppressed 4th form Freeza-level.

How far suppressed? 3%? 50%? 70%?

Originally posted by juggerman
Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about)

From what I can clearly tell he agrees (and I also probably would) with Ssj2 being 2x Full Power Ssj, not 2x Ssj.
Big difference, obviously.

Also, a strong case could be made for the manga itself implying the Ssj2 boost to be consistently more than the guidebook-source 2x, however this is another story (that's why I used the word probably in my previous sentence).

My opinion:
In the Cell era, a 2x boost in power was considered gargantuan... Bordering on insurmountable, even. And judging by the emphasis placed on SSJ2, I would tend to believe that it gleaned the single greatest Saiyan power increased we saw during that saga.

IOW, all other 'Grades' of SSJ in the Cell saga would have gleaned <2x increases, imo. I think that is a perfectly reasonable, and moreover logical assertion. You can fill-in the other characters(Androids, Piccolo, versions of Cell, etc.) accordingly.

Well I'm glad that's been cleared up

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
From what I can clearly tell he agrees (and I also probably would) with Ssj2 being 2x Full Power Ssj, not 2x Ssj.
Big difference, obviously.

Also, a strong case could be made for the manga itself implying the Ssj2 boost to be consistently more than the guidebook-source 2x, however this is another story (that's why I used the word probably in my previous sentence).

I think people (possible you as well) are assuming I'm saying SSJ2 is twice Noob SSJ Goku vs Frieza level SSJ. That's not what I mean. I know Goku and company got stronger. I just don't think it was as big as some think

It's not cleared up.

Well to be honest, Gohan and Vegeta both had to double their power levels to be stronger than Goku was on Namek in their super saiyan forms. And that was in four years after Namek (took Gohan five because spirit and time room to get super saiyan) So them doubling their powers isn't exactly unbelievable. From Cell Saga to Buu Saga they probably improved a LOT less. But in those 4 (or 5 for Vegeta and Trunks) doubling their base level wouldn't matter much..

I mean if the logic of doubling their power was so unheard of that it made them go oh my god...then the x50 would be an issue of even more magnitude. But of course super saiyan was common place...The sheer amount of power ssj2 gives their base self tho is whats impressive. 100x their base.

Originally posted by juggerman
The problem with that is if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was so common then there wouldn't have been the outright shock and awe when Gohan only doubled his power against Cell

Uh, Vegeta was pretty shocked when Goku multiplied his power by 1.5 when he used Kaioken against Nappa.

They were shocked by the sheer size of the power, not the amplification it saw.

Think about it, it wouldn't be shocking if they saw a power level of 100 go to 200, which is why Raditz wasn't even that shocked when Goku and Piccolo took off their weights, although he was impressed. The fact of the matter though is that Gohan went from a power level of likely over 500 million, to 1 billion. And we see in DBZ that when one person has the power level equivalent of several people, he can do WAY more than they can as a team. Which is why fusion makes a difference in the first place.

Originally posted by Kento
Well to be honest, Gohan and Vegeta both had to double their power levels to be stronger than Goku was on Namek in their super saiyan forms. And that was in four years after Namek (took Gohan five because spirit and time room to get super saiyan) So them doubling their powers isn't exactly unbelievable. From Cell Saga to Buu Saga they probably improved a LOT less. But in those 4 (or 5 for Vegeta and Trunks) doubling their base level wouldn't matter much..

I mean if the logic of doubling their power was so unheard of that it made them go oh my god...then the x50 would be an issue of even more magnitude. But of course super saiyan was common place...The sheer amount of power ssj2 gives their base self tho is whats impressive. 100x their base.

After Namek those gains weren't common at all and for some reason pretty much forgotten about.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, Vegeta was pretty shocked when Goku multiplied his power by 1.5 when he used Kaioken against Nappa.

They were shocked by the sheer size of the power, not the amplification it saw.

Think about it, it wouldn't be shocking if they saw a power level of 100 go to 200, which is why Raditz wasn't even that shocked when Goku and Piccolo took off their weights, although he was impressed. The fact of the matter though is that Gohan went from a power level of likely over 500 million, to 1 billion. And we see in DBZ that when one person has the power level equivalent of several people, he can do WAY more than they can as a team. Which is why fusion makes a difference in the first place.

Yes Vegeta was shocked but before then they never really saw people's PL's growing like that.

I disagree. They were shocked by both

If these guys were doubling their SSJ power left and right SSJ2 would not have been needed or make any sense. It was a massive boost to everyone so that means it had to be bigger than what they were used to

Originally posted by carver9
It's not cleared up.

Sure it is

Originally posted by juggerman
Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about) Galan absolutely loves Frieza though. Do you agree with his assertion that Android 19/20 were comparable to supressed form Frieza which puts them in the 1-50 percent range?



Originally posted by juggerman
I admitted I was mistaken about Trunks vs Frieza. I didn't realize Frieza was heavily suppressed

Here's where you are making a mistake tho: You don't have to be double someone's power to completely own them. Look at the fights on Namek for example. Vegeta was less than 10% stronger than Dodoria and treating him like garbage. Similar with Zarbon after Vegeta got beat down. You make it seem like the only way the Androids could have beaten up Trunks and company was if they were multiple times their strength and that has never been the case. Hell it goes all the way back to DB where we see guys beating each other down with similar differences in power

The androids could have been around 10% stronger than Trunks to treat him like nothing. Hell Vegeta was actually on par with 18 and only lost cuz her energy doesn't drain. So no they were not double Frieza's power

Can you post the Daizenshuu numbers you are referring to? I only remember them going up to the very beginning of Androids Saga. If there are more than that could put this whole thing to bed.

You are making up power levels. Also, as carver himself pointed out earlier in the thread, I was just messing with him. I didn't expect you or others to get all up in arms over it.

I explain the increases like they've always been explained in Db and DBZ. a 5%-10% difference in power has always been shown to be MASSIVE. That has literal been the rule from jump. You and other seem to have forgotten that little bit

It does make sense in regard to Gohan. Cell had detailed files on all of the Z Warriors. He knew what their power was. Then he felt some of them up close himself and he absorbed 17 and we know 17 fought first hand against Vegeta and company. Cell would have been well informed about Vegeta. Now in about a day Vegeta would have, IYO, doubled/tripled or more his power and fought Semi Perfect Cell. Cell had no idea how Vegeta gained that power so to goad Gohan, who needed much less of a boost than Vegeta got wouldn't make sense.

I argued against DBZ against Superman. That's it. When else did I argue against them? It's hilarious that I say DBZ can't win one fight and all of a sudden fanboys jump out from the wood work and go "U H8 DBZ DERPY DERP!11!!!!11"

Here's where you make the mistake though. I never said the ease of which they won was the reason they were twice as strong, I stated that Android 17 stating he didn't even use half his power when he ripped off Gohan's arm was the reason they were twice as strong. It doesn't hurt that Cell treated Android 17 like a child however. Not to mention Trunks stated they were stronger than him in every instance which would include the "half his power" form. So that's a thing. Android 17 basically outright saying he's twice as strong as Gohan. Which is what I based that on. You got anything to add to that?

And the 10 percent increases on Namek were still quite large, not that it's relevant. Vegeta was like 18-30 thousand before his massive jumps in power. A gap of a couple thousand will seem more at that low level than a couple millions when you get to the hundreds. Example being Goku vs Frieza which was a gap of 30 million, and Frieza iirc even KO'ed Goku in that fight. What is that a 25 percent gap? It only really got one sided when Frieza started running out of power.

That doesn't rule out anything though with Vegeta being comparable to her. Vegeta was a lot stronger than everyone there including Trunks. Hell he was more powerful than Goku who was more powerful than Trunks (who's power never changed) 3 years earlier. Trunks was quite a bit weaker than his Androids, and he was absolutely shocked that Vegeta could even compete with 18 who was much stronger than Trunks' Androids. Trunks could barely compete with his Androids 1 on 1 when they were presumably holding back. It doesn't answer anything.

That being said even if we lowball the Androids to only be about 200 million, that still stacks 3 times at the very least. Which would put Perfect Cell at at least 600 million. Considering Trunks was stronger than him and we know his increase was not two times, that would put his SS form at 300+ million. Which is a two times increase in power. Something you don't think is possible. Even though it's an increase of 4 times his original power with the transformations factored in. So even in SS form he's increasing by 2...
Hell, taking it a step farther, even if the Androids were 150 million for whatever reason, that would put Perfect Cell at 450 million. Trunks would be at 225 million at least at SS. Which is a 75 million increase in power, which means he's gotten a 50 percent increase in power. However, that's still a 3 times increase in total power when factoring in his buff forms, so...

And that's under the assumption that Cell was simply gaining an addition to his power as well. Which not only Vegeta not thinking he'd gain enough power to beat him with 18 goes against, but 16 straight up saying it goes against it as well:
http://i67.tinypic.com/35mk2go.gif

IE, it was a bigger increase than simply adding the Androids to Cell's power. As well as assuming Trunks was only a little bit more powerful than Cell like I did in my examples. Cell states that Trunks is much stronger than him.
http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.gif

I'm really not seeing how they didn't get a couple times more powerful? SS2 being a double increase in power doesn't negate other double increases over long periods of time. I don't get it. That'd be like saying up to SS2 no one has ever gotten a double increase in power no matter how long it took. It's the same type of logic employed. How did Goku even get stronger going to Namek? He kept transforming into SS2 so many times his hair stayed black or something?

I'd look but I don't want to. It's not really important if it exists anyway since even lowball estimates shows 2 times increases in power during that saga. I saw a guy say it on another forum and it added up with the Androids being twice Frieza so I threw it in.

You explain the jumps in power when using really low power levels and try to apply it to everything else while ignoring proof and logic. That doesn't work.
Also the examples don't work anyway with your view of 5-10 percent.
Vegeta was 15 percent more powerful than Dodoria, and it took a lot more effort than what was expended against Trunks with the Androids. We don't know the exact difference between monster Zarbon and Vegeta. But it wasn't on the scale of beatdown that you're comparing the Androids to. Zarbon took a lot of shots before dying. You're comparing fights with lots of attacks vs Android 17 getting one and two shotted, Trunks getting one shotted, and the like. Seems you're starting at a fault and then trying to use your examples to overrule the words you're putting in my mouth.

Cell only had detailed files on the Z Fighters up to Frieza arriving on Earth. IE next to nothing on Gohan. And I have no idea how this is relevant anyway. You're again comparing long periods of training to an instant boost.
And yes, Cell was extremely surprised by Vegeta because it didn't make sense to him. The issue with Gohan is a couple things:
First off, Gohan wasn't fighting back and Cell was primarily trying to piss him off, which flows in line with him having Vegeta's pride to fight a stronger opponent.
Cell's perception of transformations was based on Vegeta, Trunks, and his own transformations where although there is a power increase, it comes at the cost of speed. So it really wouldn't have mattered for him too much if that was the outcome. He knew he'd get stronger, but it would come at a price.
And lastly, it was stupid. When Gohan was fighting, he was near Cell's level. It's called plot. I don't even begin to understand how this proves or disproves anything. Cell was wrong, that's it. Hell, even after Gohan went SS2 and Cell felt his power, he still said that Gohan can't possibly win. He was full of ego at that point.

And again, the SS2 was unheard of. They lost nothing in the process, and gained even more power. Not only that, but Gohan's power was unheard of even in his SS form. That's why it was such a shock. He was above all of them already and then he has a transformation where he can instantly become much more powerful and faster. Cell's power was blowing with their minds and then all of the sudden something comes out double that? No shit it's going to be a shock. I don't understand how this is a point. It's not the double power increase that surprised them. It's the level of power that was on display there. They shot up dozens of times their own power a couple years earlier, you think a simple double increase is surprising? No, it's where he ended up. He was already in the ballpark of Trunks' most powerful form, and then he doubled that instantly.


All you do is argue against Carver on anything he says. And while that may just be the Carver effect, it carries over when you apply that to anyone who disagrees with you. Not to mention calling anyone else a dbz fanboy and mocking the words doesn't exactly help. From my perspective it certainly doesn't look like the case of a fan talking about something he likes. Not that it matters of course since everyone can chime in, except BeyonderGod. It's just funny that you have to try and convince me of your like for the series.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Galan absolutely loves Frieza though. Um, why is my name getting brought up in your wall-o-text? I didn't respond to any of your posts, so I'm not sure why you're randomly throwing my name out there..?

Furthermore, why must I 'absolutely love Frieza' to say that #19 & #20(pre-energy absorption) were comparable to him?

One Big Mob seems like a nice guy. Stick around mate.

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, why is my name getting brought up in your wall-o-text? I didn't respond to any of your posts, so I'm not sure why you're randomly throwing my name out there..?

Furthermore, why must I 'absolutely love Frieza' to say that #19 & #20(pre-energy absorption) were comparable to him? Because I can naturally.

And it's interesting that Juggerman keeps using your name as some sort of canon when he seems to disagree with you in the same post on that very subject.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
One Big Mob seems like a nice guy. Stick around mate.

But we'll see for how much longer.

This thread is an example of why I stopped trying to make anything make sense in Dragonball power levels/combat power.

It seems like I can think of an exception to almost any argument I come up with.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because I can naturally.

And it's interesting that Juggerman keeps using your name as some sort of canon when he seems to disagree with you in the same post on that very subject. I'm not even reading this thread, tbh. Just noticed that you mentioned me as I browsed through this page, and didn't know why.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This thread is an example of why I stopped trying to make anything make sense in Dragonball power levels/combat power.

It seems like I can think of an exception to almost any argument I come up with.

It's become even more ridiculous since DBS entered the fray. Stopped following that entirely.

You mean you haven't been watching?

I'll admit I haven't either tbh.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Galan absolutely loves Frieza though. Do you agree with his assertion that Android 19/20 were comparable to supressed form Frieza which puts them in the 1-50 percent range?

Here's where you make the mistake though. I never said the ease of which they won was the reason they were twice as strong, I stated that Android 17 stating he didn't even use half his power when he ripped off Gohan's arm was the reason they were twice as strong. It doesn't hurt that Cell treated Android 17 like a child however. Not to mention Trunks stated they were stronger than him in every instance which would include the "half his power" form. So that's a thing. Android 17 basically outright saying he's twice as strong as Gohan. Which is what I based that on. You got anything to add to that?

And the 10 percent increases on Namek were still quite large, not that it's relevant. Vegeta was like 18-30 thousand before his massive jumps in power. A gap of a couple thousand will seem more at that low level than a couple millions when you get to the hundreds. Example being Goku vs Frieza which was a gap of 30 million, and Frieza iirc even KO'ed Goku in that fight. What is that a 25 percent gap? It only really got one sided when Frieza started running out of power.

That doesn't rule out anything though with Vegeta being comparable to her. Vegeta was a lot stronger than everyone there including Trunks. Hell he was more powerful than Goku who was more powerful than Trunks (who's power never changed) 3 years earlier. Trunks was quite a bit weaker than his Androids, and he was absolutely shocked that Vegeta could even compete with 18 who was much stronger than Trunks' Androids. Trunks could barely compete with his Androids 1 on 1 when they were presumably holding back. It doesn't answer anything.

That being said even if we lowball the Androids to only be about 200 million, that still stacks 3 times at the very least. Which would put Perfect Cell at at least 600 million. Considering Trunks was stronger than him and we know his increase was not two times, that would put his SS form at 300+ million. Which is a two times increase in power. Something you don't think is possible. Even though it's an increase of 4 times his original power with the transformations factored in. So even in SS form he's increasing by 2...
Hell, taking it a step farther, even if the Androids were 150 million for whatever reason, that would put Perfect Cell at 450 million. Trunks would be at 225 million at least at SS. Which is a 75 million increase in power, which means he's gotten a 50 percent increase in power. However, that's still a 3 times increase in total power when factoring in his buff forms, so...

And that's under the assumption that Cell was simply gaining an addition to his power as well. Which not only Vegeta not thinking he'd gain enough power to beat him with 18 goes against, but 16 straight up saying it goes against it as well:
http://i67.tinypic.com/35mk2go.gif

IE, it was a bigger increase than simply adding the Androids to Cell's power. As well as assuming Trunks was only a little bit more powerful than Cell like I did in my examples. Cell states that Trunks is much stronger than him.
http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.gif

I'm really not seeing how they didn't get a couple times more powerful? SS2 being a double increase in power doesn't negate other double increases over long periods of time. I don't get it. That'd be like saying up to SS2 no one has ever gotten a double increase in power no matter how long it took. It's the same type of logic employed. How did Goku even get stronger going to Namek? He kept transforming into SS2 so many times his hair stayed black or something?

I'd look but I don't want to. It's not really important if it exists anyway since even lowball estimates shows 2 times increases in power during that saga. I saw a guy say it on another forum and it added up with the Androids being twice Frieza so I threw it in.

I do think 19 and 20 were weaker than full power Frieza. Not really sure how much so tho.

Can you post where #17 said that? I honestly don't remember him saying he only used 50%

Goku had the upper hand the entire fight with Frieza once he went SSJ. Anytime Frieza did well was anime filler iirc.

Trunks and Goku were equals in power. Vegeta was very close to their power as well. The reason Vegeta did better was because #17 > #18 in power. So Vegeta was fighting the weaker of the two while Trunks fought the stronger.

I feel like you are making up numbers regarding Cell and the droids. Do you have the canon text you spoke about in your last post? Where you claimed Cell was 900 million in power? Or that gave any number at all? That would really help settle this whole thing

We don't know how much Cell's power increased with each absorption. Again increases of 10%-20% were always considered massive in DBZ. There is no reason Cell couldn't have jumped only that much

You keep going back to the massive increases before the Cell Saga. We know they had uber increases then but after they achieved SSJ those increases ended. Maybe because SSJ was considered the pinnacle of what a Saiyan could achieve. Or maybe Akira just forgot. I really don't know but I have a hard time seeing the characters blow their loads over a 2x increase to think it was more common. No one received an increase like that after Namek is the answer

I really don't see the droids(17 and 18) being twice Frieza. If it adds up to you cool beans. I'm just not seeing it

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You explain the jumps in power when using really low power levels and try to apply it to everything else while ignoring proof and logic. That doesn't work.
Also the examples don't work anyway with your view of 5-10 percent.
Vegeta was 15 percent more powerful than Dodoria, and it took a lot more effort than what was expended against Trunks with the Androids. We don't know the exact difference between monster Zarbon and Vegeta. But it wasn't on the scale of beatdown that you're comparing the Androids to. Zarbon took a lot of shots before dying. You're comparing fights with lots of attacks vs Android 17 getting one and two shotted, Trunks getting one shotted, and the like. Seems you're starting at a fault and then trying to use your examples to overrule the words you're putting in my mouth.

Cell only had detailed files on the Z Fighters up to Frieza arriving on Earth. IE next to nothing on Gohan. And I have no idea how this is relevant anyway. You're again comparing long periods of training to an instant boost.
And yes, Cell was extremely surprised by Vegeta because it didn't make sense to him. The issue with Gohan is a couple things:
First off, Gohan wasn't fighting back and Cell was primarily trying to piss him off, which flows in line with him having Vegeta's pride to fight a stronger opponent.
Cell's perception of transformations was based on Vegeta, Trunks, and his own transformations where although there is a power increase, it comes at the cost of speed. So it really wouldn't have mattered for him too much if that was the outcome. He knew he'd get stronger, but it would come at a price.
And lastly, it was stupid. When Gohan was fighting, he was near Cell's level. It's called plot. I don't even begin to understand how this proves or disproves anything. Cell was wrong, that's it. Hell, even after Gohan went SS2 and Cell felt his power, he still said that Gohan can't possibly win. He was full of ego at that point.

And again, the SS2 was unheard of. They lost nothing in the process, and gained even more power. Not only that, but Gohan's power was unheard of even in his SS form. That's why it was such a shock. He was above all of them already and then he has a transformation where he can instantly become much more powerful and faster. Cell's power was blowing with their minds and then all of the sudden something comes out double that? No shit it's going to be a shock. I don't understand how this is a point. It's not the double power increase that surprised them. It's the level of power that was on display there. They shot up dozens of times their own power a couple years earlier, you think a simple double increase is surprising? No, it's where he ended up. He was already in the ballpark of Trunks' most powerful form, and then he doubled that instantly.


All you do is argue against Carver on anything he says. And while that may just be the Carver effect, it carries over when you apply that to anyone who disagrees with you. Not to mention calling anyone else a dbz fanboy and mocking the words doesn't exactly help. From my perspective it certainly doesn't look like the case of a fan talking about something he likes. Not that it matters of course since everyone can chime in, except BeyonderGod. It's just funny that you have to try and convince me of your like for the series.


Perhaps my math was off. What were Vegeta's and Dodoria's PLs when they fought. I thought Vegeta was 24k and Dodoria was 22k?

Cell was around during their fights with the Androids and fought Piccolo. He would have been well aware of their powers since he could very accurately sense ki. That's how he knew how many people he needed to absorb before facing anyone outright. Being as how he knew Vegeta's power only one day prior and then seeing that jump in power without knowing how it happened makes me feel like he would have been more cautious with Gohan had that increase been at the level you are saying it was. I agree it was a dumb move but it makes sense if he were expecting a lower jump in power based of a lower jump by Vegeta and Trunks

It would be surprising since after SSJ was unlocked, there weren't those massive jumps. A little here and there(in the grand scheme) wouldn't blow their minds but doubling the legendary form altogether would indeed blow their minds.

You claimed that I "always argue against DBZ" yet you've provided nothing to back that up. I freely admit I argued for Superman against Goku but I fail to see how that equates to me not liking DBZ as a whole or "always arguing against it". To say that does indeed make you and others(it wasn't just you I was talking about) look like fanboys. I've created DBZ threads, I've debated in many others as well. Hell I remember when I was the only one in a thread arguing for Vegito when he was up against Thor. I even debated for someone(Goku I think) against Juggernaut. Look at my freaking Avatar and Sig. I love the damn Juggernaut. So yeah brah

Look at it like this: If you said Batman couldn't beat Superman and I jumped all over you for it and laughed when you said you even liked Batman I wouldn't look like a fanboy? Of course I would. I'm just calling it how I see it. But again how you view my interest in DBZ means nothing at all to me in the grand scheme.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
And it's interesting that Juggerman keeps using your name as some sort of canon when he seems to disagree with you in the same post on that very subject.

I brought up galan because people were trying to pretend that I was just making up a stance and no one could possibly agree with me.

What did I disagree with exactly?

Nothing wrong with bringing up Galan.

He has dominated this forum, lol. Sure, doesn't mean he's always right. But definitely a credible poster when it comes to DB stuff.

Originally posted by carver9
It's not cleared up.

Oh but it is.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nothing wrong with bringing up Galan.

He has dominated this forum, lol. Sure, doesn't mean he's always right. But definitely a credible poster when it comes to DB stuff.

Damn right he isn't always right. He actually tried to argue against Broly's power being maximum. Phucking retard!

Originally posted by juggerman
I do think 19 and 20 were weaker than full power Frieza. Not really sure how much so tho.

Can you post where #17 said that? I honestly don't remember him saying he only used 50%

Goku had the upper hand the entire fight with Frieza once he went SSJ. Anytime Frieza did well was anime filler iirc.

Trunks and Goku were equals in power. Vegeta was very close to their power as well. The reason Vegeta did better was because #17 > #18 in power. So Vegeta was fighting the weaker of the two while Trunks fought the stronger.

I feel like you are making up numbers regarding Cell and the droids. Do you have the canon text you spoke about in your last post? Where you claimed Cell was 900 million in power? Or that gave any number at all? That would really help settle this whole thing

We don't know how much Cell's power increased with each absorption. Again increases of 10%-20% were always considered massive in DBZ. There is no reason Cell couldn't have jumped only that much

You keep going back to the massive increases before the Cell Saga. We know they had uber increases then but after they achieved SSJ those increases ended. Maybe because SSJ was considered the pinnacle of what a Saiyan could achieve. Or maybe Akira just forgot. I really don't know but I have a hard time seeing the characters blow their loads over a 2x increase to think it was more common. No one received an increase like that after Namek is the answer

I really don't see the droids(17 and 18) being twice Frieza. If it adds up to you cool beans. I'm just not seeing it Depending on the degree stated, that puts them at the maximum of half of Frieza's strength, or at the minimum of 1 percent of 120 million.

This is what I was talking about with you ignoring proof:
Originally posted by One Big Mob
But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...

In Trunks' timeline Android 17 was apparently more than twice as powerful as Gohan when he wasn't holding back.
http://i67.tinypic.com/35bryv6.jpg


And Gohan was around Trunks level with one arm (which means he was around Goku level as well)
http://i66.tinypic.com/33k6lo3.jpg



And in the main timeline, the Androids were much stronger than Trunks' timeline.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6o6wx.jpg

That is what my whole post branches off of. The idea that Android 17 in the main timeline is at the very least double Trunks' power level. Everything else is factoring that in. Using actual proof. I'm not just making an assumption based of people going "holy shit Gohan just raised his Ki which is the second highest ki we've ever felt in this series, and he's doubled it!"

It took Goku six pages to appear again after this hit from Frieza ramming through his blast:
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/db27_144.jpg.html
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/db27_145.jpg.html
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/db27_146.jpg.html

Even when Frieza tired, he was still able to get some hits in. It wasn't a long fight, but there was no indication during the fight that Goku was 30 million higher than Frieza. And there goes your whole point when using people in the low thousands to explain away million differences.

There is absolutely zero percent chance that Goku stayed at 150 million after four years. Even after 1 year Goku showed he was above Trunks. Goku and Trunks were in no way equal and that goes against everything we know about Goku and Dragonball as a whole. Especially when Goku was specifically going to train for 3 years with actual people.
Vegeta was stronger than Goku training specifically to deal with threats way beyond Frieza for 3 years. So that should say a lot. Also, Trunks accomplished nothing against 18 except getting dropped by 17, and then having 18 break Vegeta against him.


Of course I'm making up numbers. I'm lowballing Cell's power to show you that there is absolutely no way for Trunks to not have gained at least a double increase in power. Do you not understand what the point of that is? Do you not understand that "900 million" was only used in addition to the Androids being around 300 million and it adding up? I used a guy claiming to state from the Daizenshuu that Cell was 900 million admittedly. Now I don't have the scan, said I wasn't going to look for it, but I figured it made sense. And I was under the assumption that you were actually looking at the scans I used to think "hey 3 people with around 300 million pl does add up to 900 million". 900 million from the Daizenshuu was not my point.
I like how you fail to address the actual lowball estimates though where it still winds up with Trunks gaining at the very least a 3 times powerup.


That's the thing though. And I will address this in separate post as well, but the thing is, Cell is completely absorbing a being and you think his power only jumps up 10 percent from that? Nevermind the fact that Cell got way more powerful than Piccolo from absorbing regular people with power levels of 1-10, but you actually think he only got a 20 percent increase from absorbing 2 beings he was destined to absorb?
But like I said though before, and repeated myself, and even threw a scan in there from 16 where his strength made no sense... Vegeta with no concept of how Cell's power worked, outright said that Cell absorbing 18 would not allow him to defeat Vegeta. You think Vegeta was only thinking about 10 percent of her power?
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/320706.gif.html

I keep saying it because it's true. Even you admit it though you're too stubborn to realize it. There's a reason I've been making a point to say Trunks was above Cell, and you'll see soon enough.

That's because you keep ignoring the scan where it nigh spells it out to you letter for letter.

Originally posted by juggerman
Perhaps my math was off. What were Vegeta's and Dodoria's PLs when they fought. I thought Vegeta was 24k and Dodoria was 22k?

Cell was around during their fights with the Androids and fought Piccolo. He would have been well aware of their powers since he could very accurately sense ki. That's how he knew how many people he needed to absorb before facing anyone outright. Being as how he knew Vegeta's power only one day prior and then seeing that jump in power without knowing how it happened makes me feel like he would have been more cautious with Gohan had that increase been at the level you are saying it was. I agree it was a dumb move but it makes sense if he were expecting a lower jump in power based of a lower jump by Vegeta and Trunks

It would be surprising since after SSJ was unlocked, there weren't those massive jumps. A little here and there(in the grand scheme) wouldn't blow their minds but doubling the legendary form altogether would indeed blow their minds.

You claimed that I "always argue against DBZ" yet you've provided nothing to back that up. I freely admit I argued for Superman against Goku but I fail to see how that equates to me not liking DBZ as a whole or "always arguing against it". To say that does indeed make you and others(it wasn't just you I was talking about) look like fanboys. I've created DBZ threads, I've debated in many others as well. Hell I remember when I was the only one in a thread arguing for Vegito when he was up against Thor. I even debated for someone(Goku I think) against Juggernaut. Look at my freaking Avatar and Sig. I love the damn Juggernaut. So yeah brah

Look at it like this: If you said Batman couldn't beat Superman and I jumped all over you for it and laughed when you said you even liked Batman I wouldn't look like a fanboy? Of course I would. I'm just calling it how I see it. But again how you view my interest in DBZ means nothing at all to me in the grand scheme.



I brought up galan because people were trying to pretend that I was just making up a stance and no one could possibly agree with me.

What did I disagree with exactly?

That still doesn't account for anything though. Gohan could have been more powerful than him at the time, and that still wouldn't have stopped Cell from trying to piss him. You overthinking it does not add canon to the events at hand. You want to see the page or something to realize why it doesn't matter?
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/db34pg123.gif.html

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/db34pg171.gif.html

That last scan also accounts for your post about "very accurately sense ki" since Cell still thought he had a chance even when Gohan was nearly twice as powerful as him. Cell just wanted to piss Gohan off. That is the official reason. On a deeper level, it was exactly the same reason as Vegeta let him achieve perfection. It was to get a challenge... the whole reason behind the Cell Games. No Cell didn't expect a new transformation, but that again doesn't negate the prior accomplishments the previous fighters did.

I'm not disputing that. In fact, that factors into what I'm saying. That there's an instant transformation that can double the SS form with no real drawbacks, and all you have to do is transform. However, that does not in anyway indicate that doubling your power without it is in any way impossible either later or before hand. Especially not when double your power before hand still leads you to a lesser power level than the normal SS form from the guy who can transform into SS2. Even worse in retrospect when Vegeta far eclipses Goku in SS3 form when Goku's form starts out 4 times higher than SS2... but I digress.
Basically, Gohan at the time achieved the foreseeable limits of SS1 by far and then he shattered that. That is why it was so shocking. Not to mention Gohan was weak as shit within that year and had the most jumps in power out of anyone there considering he wasn't even close to Base Goku level to start before he went into the chamber... same with Bardock for that matter. Guy became a SS at a couple grand in power. It lessens the effect when Namek Vegeta can beat a SS but it doesn't make it any less possible.

Aren't you the guy that argued that a destructo disc could kill Beerus based on a no limits fallacy (same thread you argued that stopping ki had almost no weight to it to try and take away any sort of strength feats because they're nowhere near Thor level)? That there was absolutely no way Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta without destabilizing the core? Goku stands no chance against Superman? And others. Almost every thread I click on involving you and DBZ has some asinine debate going on with it. Like I said, it reminds me of Carver and his favorite character Superman.
Now, it doesn't bother me in the slightest what your inclination is to DBZ, but the fact that you have to try and prove how much you enjoy it doesn't exactly paint the picture of an honest person. People should enjoy what they enjoy without "swear to God" esque testimonies.



When Galan has PM'ed you as many videos as he's done to me of him licking penises, then you start to doubt he knows what he's talking about. Never seen him put one in his mouth, just lick them, and that tells the tale of a man you can't trust.

You questioning him leads me to believe you don't exactly believe him, and that's perfectly reasonable going back to my penis licking point up above.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Galan has PM'ed you as many videos as he's done to me of him licking penises, then you start to doubt he knows what he's talking about. Never seen him put one in his mouth, just lick them, and that tells the tale of a man you can't trust.

You questioning him leads me to believe you don't exactly believe him, and that's perfectly reasonable going back to my penis licking point up above.



Official KMC canon.

And going back to what I said above...
When asked how much more powerful you think Cell is over Frieza you said:

Originally posted by juggerman
Somewhere between 3 and 4 I'd guess

Which right off the bat goes into the Trunks example. Trunks was more powerful, which means that Trunks got 3 to 4 times more powerful or around there as well. IE, you defeated your entire point.

To go deeper into this and to apply some more logic you used however...

3 times more powerful is 360 million which is... lol
But anyway, you think 10 percent is much more powerful in DBZ, so we go by your lowball estimates and considering Trunks greatly surpasses Cell:
http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.jpg

Let's go with 396 million for Trunks.

Let's also say Trunks' transformation is surpassed by SS2 by 10 percent as well (which makes no sense, but 10 percent is the magical number), and off the top of my head that's like 39.6 million more. Which puts his base SS form at around 220 million.

So his base form doesn't go above twice but it raises drastically to 70 million within one year. Something that should be just as impossible... however, he becomes almost 3 times as powerful as when he started still following your logic.

Then we go to 4 times Frieza for Cell:
Cell = 480 million
Trunks = 528 million
SS Trunks = 278 million

Which means Trunks becomes 3.5 times stronger as a whole over his first appearance, and his normal SS is only 22 million off of becoming two times.

So, either way going by your logic, Trunks was either tripling or quadrupling his power. And you still maintain it was impossible?

Not to mention the whole golden child of this whole thing started off weaker than base Goku during this timeframe, maybe even within a year, and would have had to have tripled his own power to get to Cell's level even under a false assumption he could transform into SS from the start. IE, Gohan became 6 times more powerful within a year. Which means even he defeats the notion that it was impossible.



Also, how did you get 3 or 4 times stronger than Frieza when you only think Cell's transformations went up 10 percent more power?

I suck at math

Lol. Bran's so jelly.

Originally posted by juggerman
Damn right he isn't always right. He actually tried to argue against Broly's power being maximum. Phucking retard!

I was reading your post very seriously until the end of your post...then I lost my shit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I was reading your post very seriously until the end of your post...then I lost my shit.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
The Cell Juniors also took hits from the guy who cut Freeza in half. Law of averages against characters who appear in all of 3 chapters is a bit unfair considering Freeza's fight in his second form took up more time. Originally posted by AuraAngel
I can practically taste the salt through my monitor. well frieza will win here i think

Cell Juniors barley fought, so based on showings Frieza. All we saw was them basically beat up on the Z-Senshi.

Barely fought? They were stalemating/beating Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Beating Piccolo who was above Super Saiyan levels and working Goku. Seems like fighting to me.

Lol...don't see Juggerman on here anymore after DBZ/DBS received fts and his Frieza argument was thrown out of the window.

Lol this thread

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...don't see Juggerman on here anymore after DBZ/DBS received fts and his Frieza argument was thrown out of the window.

I haven't seen DBS yet so I can't speak on it. As of the end of DBZ, feats show Frieza being more durable.

EDIT: It's good to see that you missed me Carv!

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by carver9
When? i think freiza will win here

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by carver9
Question is on the title. i think frieza win here

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by bbrem123
Well that is not fair. They were killed by a SSJ2 lol. i think frieza will win here

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by AuraAngel
There is no reason to go the route of averages in this case. The authorial intent is clear. Cell Juniors could take hits from powerful versions of SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks(who cut Freeza in half). That one feat is all they need frankly.

Averages need only be taken into consideration when we have massive outliers in both directions. i think freiza will win this

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by carver9
Lol...what do you mean "I" like to go by averages and don't use my debating style, base this off of your opinion. i think frieza will win here

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average? Originally posted by carver9
When? i think frieza wins here