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Originally I was going to have Leonidas vs The Mountain but I think Leonidas would take it based on how well The Red Viper did.

Equipment is as follows

Leonidas-Helmet, sword
Red Viper-Spear

Both have minimal wearable armor so I called it even there. I took away Leonidas' shield as I felt it would even the fight a bit more.

Leo every time.

I can't say I disagree.

Leonidas is basically bolo stomping

Hmm... weird match and tough to call. On one hand, GoT characters don't do that well in mvf's because their fighting style is too realistic and gritty. In short, it doesn't look that skilled. The whole movie of 300 on the other hand had very stylized fighting... which would then mean that Leonidas fighting skills look far more impressive than the Red Viper's.

That said, Leonidas never really did fight any skilled opponent 1 on 1. Leonidas seemed more of a commander than a duelist, whereas the Red Viper looked very much at home in a 1 vs. 1 match.

Guess it could go either way.

that and alot of Leonidas' fights were slow mo

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hmm... weird match and tough to call. On one hand, GoT characters don't do that well in mvf's because their fighting style is too realistic and gritty. In short, it doesn't look that skilled. The whole movie of 300 on the other hand had very stylized fighting... which would then mean that Leonidas fighting skills look far more impressive than the Red Viper's.

That said, Leonidas never really did fight any skilled opponent 1 on 1. Leonidas seemed more of a commander than a duelist, whereas the Red Viper looked very much at home in a 1 vs. 1 match.

Guess it could go either way.

He took on that giant as well.

Leonidas was a ****ing lawnmower on the field of battle and possessed blatantly near-superhuman to superhuman physical abilities. He'd casually kill Oberyn, or any human fighter from GoT.

Just to add on again. I took away Leonidas' shield to even the battle a bit. I still think Leonidas wins but I'd love to see the matchup. Good point about the skill level as well

I'm pretty sure this is obvious stomp. Its been a while since I've seen 300, but weren't the spartans comfortably above any real world human? they're at least peak human. I love Viper as much as the next guy, but he wouldn't last 10 seconds.

i honestly see viper taking this, his stamina isn't quite that spartan level because they were machines but his irl fight was honestly better

Leonidas wins. GoT characters are portrayed as skilled, yet realistic, warriors. The 300 Spartans weren't.

Great point.

Just rewatched the Mountain vs. Red Viper fight again, and I'm going to go with Viper on this one. If it weren't for the mountain's armor he would have been dead in the first few seconds of that fight.

If you take away all the slow mo from 300, Leonidas didn't seem to show as much skill as Red Viper. Plus the fact that the spear is way deadlier in a duel than a short sword.

i like it

Leo, comfortably

Leo was cutting a swath through Immortals, who were said to pretty much be the best fighters in existence aside from the Spartans. So much so that it seemed the Spartans were the first to actually kill them in battle. So when you take the most impressive fighting force in the world, and then a guy wades through them like shallow water, I'll give him the win.

I don't see Oberyn having a kill count like Leo if you put him in the same position.

Yeah well I didn't see that much skill from the Immortals either. Couple a dropkicks here and there but nothing much. Plus again, spear is at a huge advantage against a short sword. And I do mean huge advantage.

That's the thing though... Leo would be very comfortable fighting such a battle. Back then, it was routine spears would break during battle and they'd go to fighting with their short sword, while their enemies could still have a spear. Leo would be very used to this scenario and very comfortable fighting like this. Plus, he's an expert with the spear, thus he knows its in and ours and weaknesses as well. This will only aid him in this fight.

Leo is simply better in virtually every single area of a vs. fight.

persians are pussies (i do love the feline breed thou)
Viper takes this, leonidas is at a distance and if he gets too close vier will snap the spear and go in. he seems to be faster then leo and a smart fighter

Leo holds pretty much every physical advantage possible in this fight. Not on that, but he's just as skilled. I see this being very one sided actually

Leonidas would casually cut Oberyn's spear on the first thrust and then sodomize him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Leonidas would casually cut Oberyn's spear on the first thrust and then sodomize him.

It's not even a contest. Leonidas outmatches Oberyn in every physical attribute. It would be like if Gregor Clegane was also much faster than Oberyn as well, rather than just considerably stronger and tougher.

Leonidas does the same thing to Oberyn's spear that Gregor did to Oberyn's first one. Only Oberyn doesn't have a squire to fetch him a replacement here. Not that it would matter.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah well I didn't see that much skill from the Immortals either. Couple a dropkicks here and there but nothing much. Plus again, spear is at a huge advantage against a short sword. And I do mean huge advantage. Leonidas' sword looks to be barely shorter than an arming sword.

What do you classify as a "short sword"?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Leonidas' sword looks to be barely shorter than an arming sword.

What do you classify as a "short sword"?

If the replicas are to be believed as accurate, the swords used in 300 have a 25-26 inch blade which is 5-6 inches shorter than an arming sword. That means it has a ridiculously short reach against a spear. It also doesn't have the mass behind it to cut through the spear shaft.

Spartans were cleaving through body parts, armor, and chopping people in half with those swords. They shouldn't have a problem cutting through that spear.

Originally posted by KingD19
Spartans were cleaving through body parts, armor, and chopping people in half with those swords. They shouldn't have a problem cutting through that spear.


And Oberyn was able to stab through Gregor's armor. He should have an even easier time impaling Leonidas.

Except Leonidas isn't some humongous, lumbering brute. Going by feats he's faster than Oberyn by a comfortable margin.

How is this even a fight? I'm still not understanding the other side here.... Let's look at this objectively...

1. Leo holds almost every physical advantage imagineable. Which means, he's a step ahead of RV at every turn, both offensively and defenssively. Being physcialy superior can make up for mistakes leo might make in battle (unlikely anyways). It's simply too much to overcome imo

2. Leo is just as skilled as RV if not more so. Let's just say for a second they are equally skilled, well then, Leo's physically attributes would then seal the deal. However, I don't even believe they are equally skilled, I believe Leo is also more skilled. When you couple more skills and physically superior... I'm not sure how this is a fight.

3. People seem to be making a big deal out of RV having a spear and Leo only a short sword. They fail to realize Leo was quite used to fighting in such a situation. Spears broke all the time in antiquity. It was common place. Leo would be well versed in how to fight an opponent with a spear using just his short sword. Not only that, Leo is again better with the spear, with more experience using it. He knows the ins and outs of it and how to overcome it. Not only that... his short sword is more durable than a spear, as people have mentioned, he would likely break the spear... and then what for RV? He's done.

I just don't see tis as much of a fight. One was clearly portrayed as super human... one was not.

Leo actually killed a few guys with his spear, and he killed a few who had spears, and iirc he killed some with their own spears lol.

Right before he does the slow-motion solo murder run with his sword(first battle), he kills two Persians with a single spear throw.

Strength doesn't matter much in a sword/spear fight unless they end up grappling. What proof have we that Leonidas is physically superior in speed and agility?

Strength can matter in a sword/spear fight, the stronger opponent could use his strength advantage when parrying to deflect his opponent's weapon away, making recovery and counter times longer.

Do you even swordfight/spearfight, bro?

The only feat Oberyn actually had was dancing around the biggest and slowest guy in the kingdom loaded down by dozens of pounds of armor and a weapon that probably weighed a good 20lbs if not more.

What proof do you have he's fast?

Originally posted by Robtard
Strength can matter in a sword/spear fight, the stronger opponent could use his strength advantage when parrying to deflect his opponent's weapon away, making recovery and counter times longer.

Do you even swordfight/spearfight, bro?

lol. I love the premise of.... strength doesn't mean much in a weapons fight....

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
lol. I love the premise of.... strength doesn't mean much in a weapons fight....

Only someone with actual weapons training will understand...

If you know the concept of the forte/strong and debole/foible/weak part of the blade you'd understand...

Originally posted by KingD19
The only feat Oberyn actually had was dancing around the biggest and slowest guy in the kingdom loaded down by dozens of pounds of armor and a weapon that probably weighed a good 20lbs if not more.

What proof do you have he's fast?

Not saying he's faster, just that I don't see proof of Leonidas being any faster than Oberyn. KT made a claim that Leonidas is physically superior to Oberyn in every aspect... so I'd like proof.

I see Leonidas being in the same fight speed as Aragorn or Oberyn or Spartacus.

The slow mo scenes show just how fast the Spartans actually are. They're cutting through multiple guys before they can even react. And it's clear they're superhuman across the board.

Even if they werent, As I said Oberyn's speed is really moot since the only person we saw fight him was the slowest guy in GoT who still managed to tag him a few times despite wearing 50+ lbs of armor and the weight of his sword.

Originally posted by KingD19
The slow mo scenes show just how fast the Spartans actually are. They're cutting through multiple guys before they can even react. And it's clear they're superhuman across the board.

Even if they werent, As I said Oberyn's speed is really moot since the only person we saw fight him was the slowest guy in GoT who still managed to tag him a few times despite wearing 50+ lbs of armor and the weight of his sword.

Slowest guy? I know Gregor isn't exactly fast but you have to admit calling him the slowest guy in GoT is a bit of an exaggeration. Bronn does state that Gregor is far faster than any man his size should be.

Plus, the reach difference between Oberyn's spear and Leonida's short sword is bigger than whatever speed difference they might have. After all, that big lumbering giant was able to land hits on Leonidas, so it's not like he's THAT fast.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Only someone with actual weapons training will understand...

If you know the concept of the forte/strong and debole/foible/weak part of the blade you'd understand...

I promise you, ask anybody with weapons training if strength makes no different and they will strongly disagree. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're not doing it well. Being stronger than somebody most certainly helps in blade locks and parrying. Not to mention offensively if you're delivering powerful strikes that force your foe back or force his blade back far enough to find openings. Same with blocking in general, strength can make a big difference.

As yourself.... would you rather block a blow from a 14 year old kid or from a grow man who's incredibly strong. One would deliver a blow that could very well knock the blade from your hand... the other.. not so much. Again, I know what you're trying to say but you're discounting the fact that strength can help and does help. You know this to be true.

Is Oberyn's spear poisoned in this fight?

Originally posted by Mindset
Is Oberyn's spear poisoned in this fight?

So Leonidas dies several days after gutting Oberyn screaming "This is Sparta!!!"

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I promise you, ask anybody with weapons training if strength makes no different and they will strongly disagree. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're not doing it well. Being stronger than somebody most certainly helps in blade locks and parrying. Not to mention offensively if you're delivering powerful strikes that force your foe back or force his blade back far enough to find openings. Same with blocking in general, strength can make a big difference.

As yourself.... would you rather block a blow from a 14 year old kid or from a grow man who's incredibly strong. One would deliver a blow that could very well knock the blade from your hand... the other.. not so much. Again, I know what you're trying to say but you're discounting the fact that strength can help and does help. You know this to be true.

I don't think you understand how parrying works. You can be the strongest person around but if the guy who's blocking/parrying you knows what he's doing then it won't matter how strong your hits are. Because physics > physical strength.

I'd rather block a blow from a strongman competitor who doesn't know anything about swordsmanship then block a blow from a 14 yr old kid who's trained for it.

The power from a cut/stab also does not come from your strength but in how your body mechanics delivers the cut, how you manipulate the leverage of the weapon and how you put your weight behind it.

As I mentioned, if you understand the concept of the strong and weak part of the blade you'll understand that strength plays little part in it. Do you know what I'm talking about? The strong and weak part of the blade? I don't mind explaining if I have to I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

The premise was obviously on the grounds that skill was equal. Not sure why you're so against that notion that having greater physical strength than your opponent can be an advantage in a melee fight.

Also disagree with the notion that physical strength doesn't factor in the strength/power of one's blows. Skill being equal, a strong man will be able to hit harder with a weapon than a frail teenager.

edit: Are you looking at this purely from a Fencer's POV and a fencing foil?

Strength is how the Spartans were casually removing limbs, it's how Hound was chopping guys in half and how Mountain cut a horses head off. Strength definitely helps.

Originally posted by Robtard
The premise was obviously on the grounds that skill was equal. Not sure why you're so against that notion that having greater physical strength than your opponent can be an advantage in a melee fight.

Also disagree with the notion that physical strength doesn't factor in the strength/power of one's blows. Skill being equal, a strong man will be able to hit harder with a weapon than a frail teenager.

edit: Are you looking at this purely from a Fencer's POV and a fencing foil?

HEMA POV actually. My training is with longsword, sidesword and buckler, rapier and dagger, and spear.

I think my point is for strength to factor in a weapons fight, you'd need a massive advantage in strength for it to even make a difference. When skill is equal, a decent amount of strength difference won't really be as much an advantage as reach... and I think that's my main point.

Everyone here is commenting about how much stronger Leonidas is and completely neglecting Oberyn's reach advantage.

I guess my opinion is skewed by my training, but I can tell you that I'd rather get into a sword fight with someone who's 5x stronger than me rather than facing someone with a weapon 5x longer than mine.

You're forgetting that Leonidas trains with a spear just as much as a sword and knows how to fight against a spear wielder.

Originally posted by FrothByte
HEMA POV actually. My training is with longsword, sidesword and buckler, rapier and dagger, and spear.

I think my point is for strength to factor in a weapons fight, you'd need a massive advantage in strength for it to even make a difference. When skill is equal, a decent amount of strength difference won't really be as much an advantage as reach... and I think that's my main point.

Everyone here is commenting about how much stronger Leonidas is and completely neglecting Oberyn's reach advantage.

I guess my opinion is skewed by my training, but I can tell you that I'd rather get into a sword fight with someone who's 5x stronger than me rather than facing someone with a weapon 5x longer than mine.

Fair enough then, it seemed like initially you were saying that strength didn't/couldn't factor at all.

On the topic of these two and the reach advantage: I see Leonidas and his ability to easily cleave through a grown man's thigh allowing him to easily cut Oberyn's spear after a thrust, likely the first thrust.

As pointed out, Leonidas is a spear-fighter first and foremost; trained since childhood, he knows exactly what advantages Oberyn has here and would be expecting Oberyn to attack based on these strengths. If slow-ass Gregor was skilled and fast enough to cut Oberyn's spear, should be especially easy for Leonidas.

Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough then, it seemed like initially you were saying that strength didn't/couldn't factor at all.

On the topic of these two and the reach advantage: I see Leonidas and his ability to easily cleave through a grown man's thigh allowing him to easily cut Oberyn's spear after a thrust, likely the first thrust.

As pointed out, Leonidas is a spear-fighter first and foremost; trained since childhood, he knows exactly what advantages Oberyn has here and would be expecting Oberyn to attack based on these strengths. If slow-ass Gregor was skilled and fast enough to cut Oberyn's spear, should be especially easy for Leonidas.

I don't know. I doubt Oberyn uses spears that are easily cut in half. Gregor's sword is humongous and has way more mass than Leonidas' sword which means it hits a lot harder.

I just don't think Leonidas can cut the spear faster than Oberyn can impale Leonidas.

That said, if there is a spear-cutting feat in 300 then I'm definitely willing to retract my statement and change my mind.

Leo's sword has a thick/heavy front, it's basically made for hacking (unlike what the Spartan's really used) and as noted, he can easily cut through a man's thigh.

This is a replica, but it seems to be close to what was shown on screen:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMFgxMDAw/z/VewAAOSwGvhT0Dvl/$_35.JPG

The thigh cutting scene in during Leo's slow-mo solo run at the end of the first fight

Originally posted by Robtard
Leo's sword has a thick/heavy front, it's basically made for hacking (unlike what the Spartan's really used) and as noted, he can easily cut through a man's thigh.

This is a replica, but it seems to be close to what was shown on screen:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMFgxMDAw/z/VewAAOSwGvhT0Dvl/$_35.JPG

The thigh cutting scene in during Leo's slow-mo solo run at the end of the first fight

Cutting through a man's thigh in one swing is impressive but it's not impossible. I mean, I can cut through a plastic 1 gallon water container (filled with water) with a sidesword. I've seen others in my school cut through a pig with a single slash of a long sword... so I assume a man's thigh isn't that far off from the pig. A rolled tatami mat is supposed to mimic the toughness of a man's limb... and we see iado practicioners cut through up to 3 tatami mats in one go.

But I've never seen anyone in real life cut through a spear or staff in one swing.

Of course I realize we're talking about a movie, so if there's ever any piece of hardened wood that the Spartans cut through with one swing I'd gladly change my mind.

A gutted pig carcass isn't really comparable(screw the Ultimate warrior), what's comparable to a man's thigh is a man's thigh.

Leonidas is beyond "real life".

So unless I specifically find Leonidas cutting through a pole, he can't cut through a pole, despite having other great hacking feats? Come on.

Originally posted by Robtard
A gutted pig carcass isn't really comparable(screw the Ultimate warrior), what's comparable to a man's thigh is a man's thigh.

Leonidas is beyond "real life".

So unless I specifically find Leonidas cutting through a pole, he can't cut through a pole, despite having other great hacking feats? Come on.

At least show him cutting something as tough (or tougher) as hardened wood.

In the first fight scene, Leonidas cleaves almost all the way through a Persian shield(or one of the Spartan's does, but since he's the strongest of them, if one did it, he can too).

As for the Uber Immortal, he was fast enough to dodge a spear thrust, catch it, then chop the shaft off in one quick move. He was bigger than Mountain, and a lot faster too. The only reason the fight lasted so long was because he tanked everything Leo threw at him, like when he got stabbed through the arm, then pulled the blade out by the blade against Leonidas trying to keep it in. He even survived getting stabbed in the eye with the spear head. He was just so tough and strong he ignored Leonidas skill and battered him into submission. Watch the fight. But Leonidas was strong enough to cut clean through Uber Immortal's neck from the ground after getting beat on and tossed around for a few minutes.

I don't remember the cutting through the shield part but I'll take your word on it. If spartans are capable of hacking through shields then they're capable of cutting through spears