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As a race, where do the Monitors rank?

Anti-Monitor
http://i65.tinypic.com/2nknj2o.jpg

Mandrakk
http://i68.tinypic.com/16c5gyq.jpg

Nix Uotan, Super Judge
http://i67.tinypic.com/2hhkgg3.jpg

Monitor Race
http://i64.tinypic.com/23uwqrr.jpg

And the Monitor
http://i66.tinypic.com/sfla35.jpg

Last place.

lol.

Right below the Pet Avengers

Anti-Monitor COIE above LT, SC Galactus level, Current slightly below LT.

Mandrakk I above LT, Mandrakk II slightly above LT

Nix Uotan, Super Judge, God Doom level

Monitor Race current Beyonder race level, can job like them, can own like them

And the Monitor, the original Monitor is hard to judge, seemed more like Skyfather level

How about thr Primal Monitor? He seems to be the strongest Monitor. The entire DC Multiverse is said to be just a bacterium to him.

-COIE Anti-Monitor(full-power)=multiversal+/abstract. SC Anti-Monitor=galaxy-level/low-Skyfather. DCnU Anti-Monitor=multi-universal/cosmic. DCnU Anti-Monitor /w/ ALE=multiversal/abstract.
-Mandrakk I=metatextual/beyond abstract.
-Nix Uotan(SUPAJUDGE!!)=metatextual/abstract.
-Monitor Race(on average)=universal/cosmic.
-Original Monitor from COIE=multiversal/abstract.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
How about thr Primal Monitor? He seems to be the strongest Monitor. The entire DC Multiverse is said to be just a bacterium to him. The Primal Monitor is essentially the sentient whiteness of a physical comic book page. It is the 'canvas' which gives the ink life, so to speak. It is so vast that the original/infinite DC multiverse was the size of a germ in comparison. It transcends ALL--even the concept of thought.

Originally posted by Galan007
-COIE Anti-Monitor(full-power)=multiversal+/abstract. SC Anti-Monitor=galaxy-level/low-Skyfather. DCnU Anti-Monitor=multi-universal/cosmic. DCnU Anti-Monitor /w/ ALE=multiversal/abstract.
-Mandrakk I=metatextual/beyond abstract.
-Nix Uotan(SUPAJUDGE!!)=metatextual/abstract.
-Monitor Race(on average)=universal/cosmic.
-Original Monitor from COIE=multiversal/abstract.

The Primal Monitor is essentially the sentient whiteness of a physical comic book page. It is the 'canvas' which gives the ink life, so to speak. It is so vast that the original/infinite DC multiverse was the size of a germ in comparison. It transcends ALL--even the concept of thought.
So, in other words, it is even above The Presence/Scottish terrier/Yahweh/Wally in the DC hierarchy?

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
So, in other words, it is even above The Presence/Scottish terrier/Yahweh/Wally in the DC hierarchy? Totally unclear. The Presence birthed creation within the Primal Monitor, but that doesn't necessarily mean one is more powerful than the other. After all, the Primal Monitor was able to contain the 'flaw'(ie. multiverse), but it could not destroy/erase it.

Originally posted by Galan007


The Primal Monitor is essentially the sentient whiteness of a physical comic book page. It is the 'canvas' which gives the ink life, so to speak. It is so vast that the original/infinite DC multiverse was the size of a germ in comparison. It transcends ALL--even the concept of thought. Its interesting going back to Zero Hour after that.

Where Hal wiped out everything and walked on the blank page of creation and started creating.

Originally posted by Juntai
Its interesting going back to Zero Hour after that.

Where Hal wiped out everything and walked on the blank page of creation and started creating. If we retroactively apply the Primal Monitor concept, then all of creation had already been contained/bottled by the Primal Monitor's 'tech' by the time Zero Hour came around:
http://i.imgur.com/YDwI7cX.jpg

IOW, Hal still would have been inside said tech after he wiped out creation(and began remaking it), thus the Primal Monitor's 'influence' would not have applied to him. Essentially, he was sealed-off from the Over-Void/Monitor-Mind. Had Hal been exposed to the Over-Void, he would have been entirely negated from existence, until the very idea of him was lost--just like Mandrakk was.

Originally posted by Galan007
Totally unclear. The Presence birthed creation within the Primal Monitor, but that doesn't necessarily mean one is more powerful than the other. After all, the Primal Monitor was able to contain the 'flaw'(ie. multiverse), but it could not destroy/erase it.
Yep, that makes sense.

That's how I view WF Mxy as well. He had powers beyond the 4th wall (he is the strongest "5D" imp, after all), but he is essentially still bound by the rules of the comic. Thus, the events of World's Funnest, Emperor Joker, CoIE, Final Crisis, etc. were all still under the jurisdiction of The Presence. In other words, everything in the comic (the ink on the canvas) is within The Presence's control.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Yep, that makes sense.

That's how I view WF Mxy as well. He had powers beyond the 4th wall (he is the strongest "5D" imp, after all), but he is essentially still bound by the rules of the comic. Thus, the events of World's Funnest, Emperor Joker, CoIE, Final Crisis, etc. were all still under the jurisdiction of The Presence. In other words, everything in the comic (the ink on the canvas) is within The Presence's control. It should also be noted that the Overvoid=Primal Monitor=The Source. So one could say that any who have returned from beyond the Source Wall, have technically returned from the Overvoid as well. WL Kyle Rayner did this most recently.

...But you only return from the Overvoid/Source if it lets you return.

Originally posted by Galan007
It should also be noted that the Overvoid=Primal Monitor=The Source. So one could say that any who have returned from beyond the Source Wall, have technically returned from the Overvoid as well. WL Kyle Rayner did this most recently.

...But you only return from the Overvoid/Source if it lets you return.

I'm more interested in the regular Monitor race. Do you see them around celestial level?

^ Depends. Countdown painted them in a much dimmer light than Morrison.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Depends. Countdown painted them in a much dimmer light than Morrison.

Weren't there infinite amount of Monitors at one point? And when did they appear under Morrison?

Originally posted by Zack M
Weren't there infinite amount of Monitors at one point? And when did they appear under Morrison? There were infinite Monitors until the Crisis. Then only 52 remained.

Final Crisis. Superman Beyond. Multiversity.

Originally posted by Galan007
There were infinite Monitors until the Crisis. Then only 52 remained.

Final Crisis. Superman Beyond. Multiversity.

Do you put Morrison's depiction of the Monitor race around Celestial level? They certainly have tech to match, IMO.

Originally posted by Zack M
Do you put Morrison's depiction of the Monitor race around Celestial level? They certainly have tech to match, IMO. Yeah, probably.

Originally posted by Galan007
-COIE Anti-Monitor(full-power)=multiversal+/abstract. SC Anti-Monitor=galaxy-level/low-Skyfather. DCnU Anti-Monitor=multi-universal/cosmic. DCnU Anti-Monitor /w/ ALE=multiversal/abstract.
-Mandrakk I=metatextual/beyond abstract.
-Nix Uotan(SUPAJUDGE!!)=metatextual/abstract.
-Monitor Race(on average)=universal/cosmic.
-Original Monitor from COIE=multiversal/abstract.

The Primal Monitor is essentially the sentient whiteness of a physical comic book page. It is the 'canvas' which gives the ink life, so to speak. It is so vast that the original/infinite DC multiverse was the size of a germ in comparison. It transcends ALL--even the concept of thought.



Originally posted by Galan007
If we retroactively apply the Primal Monitor concept, then all of creation had already been contained/bottled by the Primal Monitor's 'tech' by the time Zero Hour came around:
http://i.imgur.com/YDwI7cX.jpg

IOW, Hal still would have been inside said tech after he wiped out creation(and began remaking it), thus the Primal Monitor's 'influence' would not have applied to him. Essentially, he was sealed-off from the Over-Void/Monitor-Mind. Had Hal been exposed to the Over-Void, he would have been entirely negated from existence, until the very idea of him was lost--just like Mandrakk was.

I must say that Dax Novu was erased only because it has been its opposite, i.e. the Thought Robot with its metatexatual powers to symbolically do the act of pushing it down where it came from (Primal Monitor).
For the rest, we know that Dax Novu entered and went out of the "flaw" at will, since as a direct probe/extension of the Primal Monitor him and the latter are basically the same in substance; we indeed also know that, after corruption by the concept of "story", Dax Novu retired again in the Overvoid, where it stayed for eons while festing on the Bleed of the DCU.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Yep, that makes sense.

That's how I view WF Mxy as well. He had powers beyond the 4th wall (he is the strongest "5D" imp, after all), but he is essentially still bound by the rules of the comic. Thus, the events of World's Funnest, Emperor Joker, CoIE, Final Crisis, etc. were all still under the jurisdiction of The Presence. In other words, everything in the comic (the ink on the canvas) is within The Presence's control.

I'm not honestly so sure about that in regards of Dax Novu, Thought Robot and the Monitor Sphere.

- In reference to Dax Novu, you can see here above my post referred to what Galan said.
- Thought Robot standed for a substantial amount of time outside of the flaw, just completely floating in the Primal Monitor beside the pre-COIE DCU. It was thus completely outside of the Presence's creation, then, when the Circle of Monitors came, it was "engulfed" at the edge of the Monitor Sphere.
Of Thought Robot Superman as a whole you can think as the most powerful combination of the best from both Presence and Primal Monitor: indeed, Superman represents the essence, the best idea ever conceived by the Presence, while the Thought Robot makes such an idea "practical" and shapes it thanks to the limitless powers of the Primal Monitor.
- Regarding the Monitor Sphere, it was stated that it has been specifically thought by the Primal Monitor itself as an interface between itself and creation. In FC the Monitors and their World literally disappeared because they (and the PM as a direct consequence) realised they were a danger for the DCU.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
I must say that Dax Novu was erased only because it has been its opposite, i.e. the Thought Robot with its metatexatual powers to symbolically do the act of pushing it down where it came from (Primal Monitor).
For the rest, we know that Dax Novu entered and went out of the "flaw" at will, since as a direct probe/extension of the Primal Monitor him and the latter are basically the same in substance; we indeed also know that, after corruption by the concept of "story", Dax Novu retired again in the Overvoid, where it stayed for eons while festing on the Bleed of the DCU. It was never stated that Novu/Mandrakk went in and out of the Overvoid/multiverse at will. All that was stated is that he was the Primal Monitor's 'Science Probe'--meant to study and observe the multiverse.

However, almost immediately after entering the multiverse, Novu was contaminated/corrupted by the concept of 'story'. He was then locked away in the Sepulchre of Nil. We know the Sepulchre=/=the Overvoid, because we saw what happened to Novu/Mandrakk when he actually fell into the Overvoid:
http://i.imgur.com/ozOv9xO.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
It was never stated that Novu/Mandrakk went in and out of the Overvoid/multiverse at will. All that was stated is that he was the Primal Monitor's 'Science Probe'--meant to study and observe the multiverse.

However, almost immediately after entering the multiverse, Novu was contaminated/corrupted by the concept of 'story'. He was then locked away in the Sepulchre of Nil. We know the Sepulchre=/=the Overvoid, because we saw what happened to Novu/Mandrakk when he actually fell into the Overvoid:
http://i.imgur.com/ozOv9xO.jpg

It was however also stated that Dax Novu enetered the infinite multiverse (which was bottled by the Primal Monitor), mapped it all and then, once corrupted, he withdrew from it.
At that time, there was no Monitor Sphere and, outside of the DCU it was only Overvoid, which is also the "place" where Dax Novu ultimately placed the Thought Robot, making the flaw safe by sealing it.

http://s16.postimg.org/8cgelnhd1/955448_final_crisis_superman_beyond_3d_1_of.jpg

Only after all of that the Primal Monitor thought the Monitor Sphere and the Nil, but Novu was already retired in the Abyss by the time.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3227323-fcsb3d1p28.jpg

Good God. Post either links or thumbnails, dude. These blown up mega-scans are retardedly annoying, and certainly don't get your point across any better. srsly


Anyway, as Morrison's Multiversal Map shows us: there are several realms outside of the multiverse/Orrery that Novu could have 'withdrawn' to, without stepping beyond the Source Wall and into the Overvoid:
http://i.imgur.com/pYJABxM.jpg

This is an important note, because Novu didn't withdraw from the multiverse/Orrery until he had already been corrupted by the stories he found there. And again: we saw what happened to a corrupted Novu(aka. Mandrakk) when he actually fell into the Overvoid--he was completely unmade:
http://i.imgur.com/ozOv9xO.jpg


The exact same thing would have happened to him if he'd of withdrawn into the Overvoid after being initially corrupted, imo. So no, I can't agree that Novu/Mandrakk could travel freely from the multiverse to the Overvoid. No evidence is suggestive of this. To the contrary, the evidence suggests that doing so would have destroyed him.

I remember in that Maelstrom arc in Quasar's comic there were two abstracts named Origin and Un-being who were basically the same role as the whole "Story" bs and they were pretty low on the totem pole in the grand scheme of things as far as abstract cosmic beings seem to be

Can however the Multiverse Map be considered valid in its totality also for the time when Novu created the Thought Robot (pre-COIE DC)?

Of course. After all, the multiverse was already operating in full-swing when Novu was originally created. That's why he was subsequently corrupted by the stories he found there.

Here's the entire scene, for context:
http://i.imgur.com/DEDRWxr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QuBHAO6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wVQvMiS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NPQcEsW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aIlBlfq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N76tdv7.jpg

No, sorry, that's not what I meant: I read FC, I should have been more clear with my question.
What I mean is this:

- from Superman Beyond 001-021 we see the Thought Robot standing next to the original, infinite DC Multiverse (with the latter that got originally bottled by Primal Monitor itself) and both the bottle of the Multiverse and TR float in the Overvoid.
Then, DC gets rebooted many times up to the actual disposition of the Multiversity map, where we see that the Monitor Sphere encompasses the rest of creation, including the Sphere of Gods and Limbo, having the function of an interface between the Primal Monitor and DC.

- Now, being said that, let's get back to Novu for a moment: you rightfully wrote the following part

Originally posted by Galan007
There are several realms outside of the multiverse/Orrery that Novu could have 'withdrawn' to, without stepping beyond the Source Wall and into the Overvoid.

But are we sure that those several realms (which are encompassed by Nil in the current Multiversity map) were even there at the time of the pre-COIE DC multiverse, when Novu mapped it all?
Mine is a honest and genuine question, since what both the Superman Beyond issues and the Multiversity Guidebook show us in that regard is the infinite original multiverse bottled, and, outside of it, only Overvoid. So, what I'm asking in a nutshell is if Heaven, Hell and all of the rest of possible dimensions could at the time being considred included in the "primordial bottle" created by the Primal Monitor itself, which we also see in the guidebook; indeed, if this was the case, when Dax Novu withdrew from the flaw (DC), the only "place" he could have come back to is the Overvoid itself.
Hope my question is more clear now.

- The same argument could be made also for Thought Robot: indeed, conversely had hypothetically Mandrakk Novu won by pushing Thought Robot in the Overvoid, I surely agree the latter would have been erased as well, in the same way that actually happened to Novu Mandrakk itself.
However, the very Superman Beyond issue shows us the Thought Robot standing in the Overvoid and being completely fine in it, in a time before the Nil even came to existence.

I don't obviously dismiss the capability of the Primal Monitor to erase the concepts of both Dax Novu and TR from existence if necessary (it clearly happened, the PM erased Dax Novu Mandrakk at the end of the fight), however I think that, imho, there could possible be evidence to claim that both of them could exist in the Overvoid just fine, Dax Novu because, at the end of the day, was a part of the PM itself extended as a probe, TR because we explicitly see it standing in the void.
Finally, to conclude my personal view of the whole matter, to me Mandrakk was erased that way at the end of SB2 because it had to be like that, since the countdown went to zero and one of the two concepts should have been necessarily nullified, being it the negative one (Mandrakk, with the DC which can live on and with the PM which allow the Monitors (actual threat to existence rather than protectors) to disappear (sans Nix obviously)), or the positive one (Thought Robot, with Dax that wins, the DCU erased and nothing but Mandrakk left, with the primordial corruption expanding to the Primal Monitor as a whole).

Just my two cents, of course.
What do you think? I'm really interested in your opinion because it is so rare to find people who actually read the whole story and who know what they are talking about.

Firstly, the Source Wall has been stated to have existed since time immemorial--which should suffice as incontrovertible proof that it existed when Novu first encountered the pre-crisis multiverse.

But yes, a rudimentary Source Wall was depicted multiple times on-panel in pre-crisis continuity:
http://i.imgur.com/IJWSuCF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0tENMXZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/D1lbr5G.jpg


...So Morrison's Map still holds true. Novu could have stepped outside of the multiverse/Orrery, but still been within the boundaries of the Source Wall--which would mean he wasn't contacting the Overvoid directly, as it lies beyond the Wall.