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I thought that was pretty common in the lore.

Glad we could finally put that one to rest. You'd be surprised at the number of people that think otherwise.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Glad we could finally put that one to rest. You'd be surprised at the number of people that think otherwise.

Well it's just...I figured it would be obvious given only Jedi/Sith are actually wielding them to full effect, that and as I recall other books say similar things in regards of their full use.

But yeah, I guess.

Like I said, you'd be surprised.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Like I said, you'd be surprised.

I know, tbh I'm baffled by comments said from others at times regarding knowledge which should be very common.

Interestingly, this sourcebook also closes the door on the debate about the Jedi's diminished combat ability in the PT.

Here, the Living Force is identified as the source of many abilities associated with Force users:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/The%20Living%20Force_zpsef92quo2.png

Whereas the Cosmic Force is more closely identified with precognition and clairvoyance:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/The%20Cosmic%20Force_zpsjaf2vamb.png

Yet the book identifies the Jedi's separation was with the latter:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Jedi%20on%20Cosmic%20Force_zpsokgqqxtz.png

Nice find!

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nice find!

Thx. It's a cool book. I'm just glad I didn't buy the damn thing lol.

@Tempest @NewGuy: Uh, you do realize Temp's scans were already in my post, rofl?

Yeah but I like direct scans.

LAL @ buying a sourcebook. That's why I keep you guys as friendly associates.
excellent

Wasn't that flat out stated though by Windu? That their ability to use The Force had diminished because of the Darkside?

Not sure you can't get any clearer than that. But nice all the same.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wasn't that flat out stated though by Windu? That their ability to use The Force had diminished because of the Darkside?

Not sure you can't get any clearer than that. But nice all the same.

Some interpret that as meaning all their Force applications diminished and that their combat abilities were therefore inferior. I've only ever seen it refer to clairvoyance, precognition, and farsight.

This book appears to favor the latter interpretation.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/sense_zpsz1avy612.png

Reading further, short-term clairvoyance and precognition {the sort used in battle} is explicitly associated with the Living Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Some interpret that as meaning all their Force applications diminished and that their combat abilities were therefore inferior. I've only ever seen it refer to clairvoyance, precognition, and farsight.

This book appears to favor the latter interpretation.

Didn't Yoda try to see before Windu's comment though? So it seems to me even there, it was referring to the application of farsight and all.

But yeah, that would be something that is probably overlooked given how small the scene.

Although I don't think the diminishing was pushed that big.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Didn't Yoda try to see before Windu's comment though? So it seems to me even there, it was referring to the application of farsight and all.

But yeah, that would be something that is probably overlooked given how small the scene.

Although I don't think the diminishing was pushed that big.

Yeah, I think context is pretty straightforward in the AOTC scene, but some have disagreed.

Ha, there's even a reference to the Jedi tomb on Chandrila from the Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy video game:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/chandrila%20jedi_zps9yu88lmy.png

Yeah, its the Barsen'thor from Swtor.

No shit?? Really? Nice little dovetail there.

Lots of Legends easter eggs from taozin, Horuun Kal, Umbaran shadow assassins, etc.

Interestingly, the Legends material is treated as actual legends commensurate with the canon split, though it's pretty damn accurate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Lots of Legends easter eggs from taozin, Horuun Kal, Umbaran shadow assassins, etc.

Interestingly, the Legends material is treated as actual legends commensurate with the canon split, though it's pretty damn accurate.

Have ou checked the Sidious page?

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Have ou checked the Sidious page?

Yeah, when I flipped through it yesterday. Same standard hype/accolades he's been getting for decades.

But now that I have a personal copy, I'm giving the whole book a more thorough investigation.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Some interpret that as meaning all their Force applications diminished and that their combat abilities were therefore inferior. I've only ever seen it refer to clairvoyance, precognition, and farsight.

This book appears to favor the latter interpretation. According to The Jedi Path, Yoda was only able to lift 5 of the 7 Muuntuur stones since passing 700 years, around the same time that the balance in the Force first shifted to the dark side.

Not sure how accurate that is in light of this.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, when I flipped through it yesterday. Same standard hype/accolades he's been getting for decades.

But now that I have a personal copy, I'm giving the whole book a more thorough investigation.

Not quite the usual hype, because the page states he may have unparalleled power in Sith history, so I guess that will lead to another debate (ahem, I meant bloodbath ). Prepare yourself.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Not quite the usual hype, because the page states he may have unparalleled power in Sith history, so I guess that will lead to another debate (ahem, I meant bloodbath ). Prepare yourself.

That's pretty much the standard hype though: he's usually identified as the most powerful or one of the most powerful in every sourcebook he's in. And it's certainly the most generous accolade proffered in the entire book.



The book doesn't really offer much by way of that. If Yoda's abilities diminished, it doesn't give any reason for us to believe it was because of imbalance.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
According to The Jedi Path, Yoda was only able to lift 5 of the 7 Muuntuur stones since passing 700 years, around the same time that the balance in the Force first shifted to the dark side.

Not sure how accurate that is in light of this.

Isn't that attributed to him getting older?

No reason is given, but various sources date the imbalance of the Force as starting 200 years PT, Yoda himself being one of these sources.

It seems an unlikely coincidence that this decline in his ability would be dated around the same time (Yoda being around 900 years old), if we weren't supposed to infer a link.

Originally posted by ares834
Isn't that attributed to him getting older?

Yeah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No reason is given, but various sources date the imbalance of the Force as starting 200 years PT, Yoda himself being one of these sources.

It seems an unlikely coincidence that this decline in his ability would be dated around the same time (Yoda being around 900 years old), if we weren't supposed to infer a link.

Canonically, the Force being out of balance is only really identified in AOTC. Upon Maul's return in s4 of TCW, he notes that "The Force is out of balance," strongly implying it wasn't prior to his defeat at Naboo.

Legends initially offered the idea that the Force was coming out of balance as early as 200 ABY in Labyrinth of Evil, but the matter was clarified {or obfuscated further, depending on your opinion} in Darth Plagueis as a product of the Sidious/Plagueis ritual approximately 40 years before the Battle of Yavin. The 200 ABY event was "retconned" as the first time the Jedi were able to sense the dark side's presence strongly thanks to the shenanigans of Tenebrous's Master or somesuch.

tl;dr: Legends never really explained it well

BTW, they're really incorporating the Legends conceit:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/legends%20conceit_zpsm9weeiy1.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Canonically, the Force being out of balance is only really identified in AOTC. Upon Maul's return in s4 of TCW, he notes that "The Force is out of balance," strongly implying it wasn't prior to his defeat at Naboo.

Legends initially offered the idea that the Force was coming out of balance as early as 200 ABY in Labyrinth of Evil, but the matter was clarified {or obfuscated further, depending on your opinion} in Darth Plagueis as a product of the Sidious/Plagueis ritual approximately 40 years before the Battle of Yavin. The 200 ABY event was "retconned" as the first time the Jedi were able to sense the dark side's presence strongly thanks to the shenanigans of Tenebrous's Master or somesuch.

tl;dr: Legends never really explained it wellInteresting, honestly the idea that it only effected the Cosmic Force makes more sense, as I assume that is what governs balance in the Force and what not.Mmm, this is basically how I've seen it since the annoucement, nice to see this was indeed their intention.

Yeah, I recall them reiterating that when it comes to Bane's exploits. But more on that soon.

tldr; nothing in Legends matters and OT/PT/TCW>everything. Sounds pretty par the course.

You got it

The concept is reiterated a few more times during the Jedi's history, but repeated again in the Sith section:

"The history of the Sith is even more unknown, obscure, muddled, and distorted than that of the Jedi."

"Given the Sith's nature and beliefs. fabricated and exaggerated stories are certainly intermixed with information on actual events."

Canon is all that matters.

Thanks, quan.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/bane%20legends_zpssvc0awbx.png

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious_zpskvaxbphu.png

Some noted in Star Wars: The Ultimate Guide that the timeline on Palpatine's entry indicated that he killed off Plagueis long before what was depicted in Darth Plagueis. Force & Destiny seems to support that notion: he kills Plagueis, then takes Maul as his apprentice, then orchestrates the invasion of Naboo.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious%202_zpsqy7z3kwz.png

That seems more fitting than what was before.

Maul canonically powerful imo

lol I was just about to PM you the rest of Maul's excerpt.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
That seems more fitting than what was before.

Agreed. I didn't really like the implication that Plagueis was anything more than a vaguely guiding presence for Palpatine. The Legends book Darth Maul: Lockdown did its best to mitigate that notion, too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Thanks, quan.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/bane%20legends_zpssvc0awbx.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Some noted in Star Wars: The Ultimate Guide that the timeline on Palpatine's entry indicated that he killed off Plagueis long before what was depicted in Darth Plagueis. Force & Destiny seems to support that notion: he kills Plagueis, then takes Maul as his apprentice, then orchestrates the invasion of Naboo.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/rule%20of%20two%20sidious%202_zpsqy7z3kwz.png



Thank god for that.

Originally posted by ares834


Thank god for that.

Yeah. This book is pretty generous with Palpatine compared to pretty much everything else. He's mentioned more than pretty much anybody and the highest accolade is his.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah. This book is pretty generous with Palpatine compared to pretty much everything else. He's mentioned more than pretty much anybody and the highest accolade is his. What are the odds a character from the new trilogy will have a character who replaces Palpatine as your favorite Star Wars character.

Unlikely, quan. But anything's possible.

Here you go, ares834:

Palpatine's Legends research of the dark side and Force traditions continues {this book mentions multiple times that vast repositories of knowledge and Holocrons were confiscated by Imperial authorities for Palpatine's study} and also emphasizes that Vader himself continues to expand his knowledge and power.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/darth%20vader_zps0u5r2nub.png

Then we have the Big Daddy himself, who is suggested to be perhaps history's most powerful Sith Lord for the first time in the new canon.

It also identifies him as a master of what the book earlier described to be the upper echelon of Cosmic Force power, namely farsight.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/palpatine_zpso0gcvxd1.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Tempest @NewGuy: Uh, you do realize Temp's scans were already in my post, rofl?

Yeah but he highlighted two sections and made a point that I hadn't considered, which is what I was referring to more than anything.

editing before the storm

On the other hand the sentence immediately before was talking about him being the most powerful dark sider...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Unlikely, quan. But anything's possible.

Here you go, ares834:

Palpatine's Legends research of the dark side and Force traditions continues {this book mentions multiple times that vast repositories of knowledge and Holocrons were confiscated by Imperial authorities for Palpatine's study} and also emphasizes that Vader himself continues to expand his knowledge and power.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/darth%20vader_zps0u5r2nub.png



Thanks.

Originally posted by ares834
On the other hand the sentence immediately before was talking about him being the most powerful dark sider...



Originally posted by ares834
Thanks.

np

Here's the page on Imperial Inquisitors. Apparently no one but Palpatine knows their true population, they're skilled interrogators as is depicted in Star Wars: Rebels, and its extremely rare that one is defeated in combat.

Also apparently Orphne from that one mindscrew TCW episode is a Force user?

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/inquisitors_zpsvkiwobha.png

Why did you have to remind me of that character.

Also is this book canon, legends, or some weird mixture of both?

Wait isn't this book about Legends? Or is that the other scans on here?

I'm digging those Inquisitor stuff though, I hope they are explored just as much as they were in Legends in this new canon.

The book helixes canon info with Legends, framing the latter as actual legends, distorted and embellished.

It's a mix of both yeah. It has a picture of who I assume is Kanan in it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The book helixes canon info with Legends, framing the latter as actual legends, distorted and embellished.

So then is the stuff with Vader, Palps and Inquisitors canon or is that Legends? Or if it's not stated as being Legends or something like that, it's canon?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So then is the stuff with Vader, Palps and Inquisitors canon or is that Legends? Or if it's not stated as being Legends or something like that, it's canon?

The book never says. The book itself doesn't have a Legends or canon stamp on it, nor are sections labeled as such. All the book does is repeatedly urge readers to be mindful of distortions, embellishments, deceit, historical errors in the history of the galaxy, Jedi, and Sith, especially the early stuff.

Anything about the elusive Fulcrum?

I don't think Ahsoka/Fulcrum are mentioned.

Ahsoka got a ggpicture too tho

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Ahsoka got a ggpicture too tho SHOW ME

http://i.imgur.com/lzqNLlI.png

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The book never says. The book itself doesn't have a Legends or canon stamp on it, nor are sections labeled as such. All the book does is repeatedly urge readers to be mindful of distortions, embellishments, deceit, historical errors in the history of the galaxy, Jedi, and Sith, especially the early stuff.

Ah...well then I think it's gonna be hard to make heads or tails of this book...hmm...

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ah...well then I think it's gonna be hard to make heads or tails of this book...hmm...

I thought the book was initially Legends given all the inclusion of Legends material, but the 20,000 disclaimers around the Legends material and major emphasis on canon material leads me to believe it's canon. Seems simple enough.

But the book never says.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
http://i.imgur.com/lzqNLlI.png http://www.jeanmichellsouber.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/yesss.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I thought the book was initially Legends given all the inclusion of Legends material, but the 20,000 disclaimers around the Legends material and major emphasis on canon material leads me to believe it's canon. Seems simple enough.

But the book never says.
I think the guide itself is supposed to be during Rebels or slightly before Rebels. All it does is stress that Jedi aren't a thing and the Skywalkers are the most important thing to Star Wars. "The Entire Skywalker universe could be said to be the story of the Skywalker family." definitely stresses that.

What page is that said?

I don't have the book, for obvious reasons like you people, and others I know will buy it and post scans anyway, but I saw a scan of the campaign set ups.
http://i.imgur.com/mWc4s9j.png
http://i.imgur.com/6ewNlud.png


Somewhere in the GM kit.

Oh ok. Thanks.

I did a ctrl + F search and didn't find that excerpt. It must be in a different guide.

As if any of this is more relevant than Revan creating the thought bomb, kek

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh ok. Thanks.

I did a ctrl + F search and didn't find that excerpt. It must be in a different guide.
It's in this: http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Star-Wars/Fantasy-Flight-Games/9781633441255?gclid=CLzl74u1gskCFdgTgQodJKoCGw

Same general heading but not the Campaign guide itself.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's in this: http://www.booksamillion.com/p/Star-Wars/Fantasy-Flight-Games/9781633441255?gclid=CLzl74u1gskCFdgTgQodJKoCGw

Same general heading but not the Campaign guide itself.

Aha.

Maul needs to make his triumphant return in a later Star Wars film. Don't **** this opportunity up, Disney.

Darn I need to get the rest of those supplements for my RP group. Anyone have any of them besides the Core book?

On topic, Nice to see the Force info in it. I am really liking the lore sections put into the book.

Anything regarding Nomi, Kun, Ulic?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul needs to make his triumphant return in a later Star Wars film. Don't **** this opportunity up, Disney.

...You really want a 90 year old Maul to show up in TFA?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Anything regarding Nomi, Kun, Ulic?
Not that I see. Nothing new anyway.

Ziost is confirmed dead though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mmm, this is basically how I've seen it since the annoucement, nice to see this was indeed their intention.

I've also been saying this for a while now. That it seems Legends are just that- stories that exist in the new canon which will contain bits of historical truth in it along with many distortions.

That's evidenced by things like Depa still having been in a coma but for a completely different reason.

Because Canon wants to retcon some major things and not be restricted by the rules Legends set up, but when they get lazy they do like to regurgitate Legends info as Canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Interestingly, this sourcebook also closes the door on the debate about the Jedi's diminished combat ability in the PT.

Here, the Living Force is identified as the source of many abilities associated with Force users:

Whereas the Cosmic Force is more closely identified with precognition and clairvoyance:


Yet the book identifies the Jedi's separation was with the latter:




Originally posted by The_Tempest


Reading further, short-term clairvoyance and precognition {the sort used in battle} is explicitly associated with the Living Force.



Thank Goodness.

I always hated the idea that all Sith during the OT/PT era had an unfair combat advantage against Lightsiders. Not to mention it was a way too speculative theory in the first place.

Plus this makes much more sense out of what's said in AOTC. It's the Jedi's vision of the future that was clouded which lead to their downfall. Their downfall really had little to do with their combat abilities- Although most of them could/should have performed better during Order 66. But again that's more down to them being betrayed and not seeing that coming.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
http://i.imgur.com/lzqNLlI.png


/saved

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Thank Goodness.

I always hated the idea that all Sith during the OT/PT era had an unfair combat advantage against Lightsiders. Not to mention it was a way too speculative theory in the first place.

Plus this makes much more sense out of what's said in AOTC. It's the Jedi's vision of the future that was clouded which lead to their downfall. Their downfall really had little to do with their combat abilities- Although most of them could/should have performed better during Order 66. But again that's more down to them being betrayed and not seeing that coming. So we are all in agreement that they can be caught off guard and precognition isn't without error. Order 66 was damn successful.

That was pretty obvious yeah. Darkside clouded their vision, worked with Clones for years, wouldn't expect betrayal and boom...dead.

Those Jedi that had explored the dark side, like Krell, did see the future though. Apparently Sifo Dyas as well.