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This dude on youtube is trying to argue that Aizen can take Vegeta due to his "immortality", and his ability to "take over a person's 5 senses".

I argued that Raditz has more energetic and powerful moves then Ichigo's mugetsu.

Aizen wins. It's not always about destructive force. Raditz will still fight in character and in character, he isn't starting the fight off with a moon buster. Ain't happening. I don't think it will happen period. With that said, Aizen takes this due to versatility and output along with being physically stronger.

Originally posted by carver9
Aizen wins. It's not always about destructive force. Raditz will still fight in character and in character, he isn't starting the fight off with a moon buster. Ain't happening. I don't think it will happen period. With that said, Aizen takes this due to versatility and output along with being physically stronger.

Physically Stronger?

What the ****?

DOUBLE SUNDAY! /thread

Originally posted by KingD19
DOUBLE SUNDAY! /thread

Insta-kill.

MY KDR IS HIGHER THEN YOURS, GET REKT MATE.

Raditz stomps

Raditz would stomp the entire verse, even at this point. Bleach characters still don't have any feats, you guys.

Sosuke Aizen causally make Raditz look like Krillin

In character, Raditz loses. Go back and watch his first encounter with Piccolo. He sat there and let Piccolo blast him. In character Raditz would definitely let Aizen use his shikai.

Out of character, obviously Radtiz.

Nah Aizen to smart/fast.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In character, Raditz loses. Go back and watch his first encounter with Piccolo. He sat there and let Piccolo blast him. In character Raditz would definitely let Aizen use his shikai.

So? We've seen in Bleach MANY TIMES that attacks which rely on reiatsu only work on enemies who are near the power of the attacker, or weaker than them.

Which is why Soi Fon's shikai didn't do anything to Aizen, when it should have killed him.

Plus, when Aizen's sword comes into contact with your body, the illusion is broke. Radditz is a good enough fighter to realize this, once Aizen's sword clangs on Radditz's skin a few times. That is, assuming it doesn't break, since Radditz is so durable that Aizen wouldn't be able to put a scratch on him in the first place.

The most he could hope to do is hypnotize Radditz, while he nukes the entire area, and kills Aizen anyway. Then the hypnosis is broke. There, Radditz wins.

Aizen would literally not be able to do a single thing here.

he could use kyoka to trick raditz todo something stupid like fly into the sun... or drown himself in water but thsts about it

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
So? We've seen in Bleach MANY TIMES that attacks which rely on reiatsu only work on enemies who are near the power of the attacker, or weaker than them.

Which is why Soi Fon's shikai didn't do anything to Aizen, when it should have killed him.

Plus, when Aizen's sword comes into contact with your body, the illusion is broke. Radditz is a good enough fighter to realize this, once Aizen's sword clangs on Radditz's skin a few times. That is, assuming it doesn't break, since Radditz is so durable that Aizen wouldn't be able to put a scratch on him in the first place.

The most he could hope to do is hypnotize Radditz, while he nukes the entire area, and kills Aizen anyway. Then the hypnosis is broke. There, Radditz wins.

Aizen would literally not be able to do a single thing here.

Aizen's shikai has no such restriction. The proof can be found in the fact that Former Head Captain Yammamoto, despite having superior Reitsu, was, like every other captain, succumbed to kyoka suigetsu's effects just fine. As did Yhwach come to think of it and that's despite being chained down to a chair to the point that he couldn't even move a finger.

I don't know about the illusion being broken when the sword comes into direct contact with one's body. When did this happen?

If he hypnotizes Raditz, he can have Raditz fly off into space (believing he's chasing after Aizen) and kill himself via lack of oxygen. He can have Raditz stand their motionless believing he's already won and then finish the prideful Saiyan off at his leisure.

In-character Raditz hasn't a chance. He'll check Aizen's "power-level" and then just stand there and let him do his thing no different than he did with Piccolo and Goku. In-character Raditz is beyond dumb.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Aizen's shikai has no such restriction. The proof can be found in the fact that Former Head Captain Yammamoto, despite having superior Reitsu, was, like every other captain, succumbed to kyoka suigetsu's effects just fine. As did Yhwach come to think of it and that's despite being chained down to a chair to the point that he couldn't even move a finger.

I don't know about the illusion being broken when the sword comes into direct contact with one's body. When did this happen?

If he hypnotizes Raditz, he can have Raditz fly off into space (believing he's chasing after Aizen) and kill himself via lack of oxygen. He can have Raditz stand their motionless believing he's already won and then finish the prideful Saiyan off at his leisure.

In-character Raditz hasn't a chance. He'll check Aizen's "power-level" and then just stand there and let him do his thing no different than he did with Piccolo and Goku. In-character Raditz is beyond dumb.

aizen is more than capable of fooling raditz. He was able to fool the whole soul society for hundreds of years. raditz shouldnt be a problem

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Aizen's shikai has no such restriction. The proof can be found in the fact that Former Head Captain Yammamoto, despite having superior Reitsu, was, like every other captain, succumbed to kyoka suigetsu's effects just fine. As did Yhwach come to think of it and that's despite being chained down to a chair to the point that he couldn't even move a finger.

I don't know about the illusion being broken when the sword comes into direct contact with one's body. When did this happen?

If he hypnotizes Raditz, he can have Raditz fly off into space (believing he's chasing after Aizen) and kill himself via lack of oxygen. He can have Raditz stand their motionless believing he's already won and then finish the prideful Saiyan off at his leisure.

In-character Raditz hasn't a chance. He'll check Aizen's "power-level" and then just stand there and let him do his thing no different than he did with Piccolo and Goku. In-character Raditz is beyond dumb.

1. First off, the statement was not just for Soifon's shikai. It was for ALL sword abilities in general, in Bleach. The statement was made by Aizen himself.

http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/391/bleach-2400793.jpg

He explicitly states that in a battle of reiatsu, if one is large enough, it can "suppress" the ENTIRE ability.

2. The reason Yamamoto couldn't break out of it, or suppress it, was simply that he wasn't strong enough. The difference between Aizen and Soifon was MUCH larger than the difference between Aizen and Yamamoto, who were arguably peers in strength.

The point is that if a character could be one-shotted by another, it is usually accepted that the weaker of the two couldn't hurt the other, even with any special abilities they might have. At least when it comes to Bleach/Zanpaktou.

3. Then finish him off? Aizen doesn't have any attacks capable of SCRATCHING Radditz, let alone finishing him. And if he had Radditz fly into outer space, he'd be out of range of his shikai. Meaning Radditz would simply U-turn, and nuke the continent they're on.

4. It doesn't matter how dumb Radditz is. He is dumb for a reason. There is not a SINGLE thing that Aizen could do to hurt Radditz, let alone kill him. None of his attacks are potent enough to kill someone that can TANK MOON BUSTING ATTACKS without even flinching.

So, to recap, Radditz would simply flare some ki and break out of Aizen's kyoka, and then proceed to rofl-stomp him, before ripping his spine out, or some other Saiyan brutality.

Originally posted by yungz22
aizen is more than capable of fooling raditz. He was able to fool the whole soul society for hundreds of years. raditz shouldnt be a problem

No one is saying he wouldn't be able to fool Radditz. What I'm saying is that he has literally no way of harming him, let alone defeating him. While Radditz can simply power through all of his attacks, including Kyoka. And then Radditz has moon+ attacks, capable of one-shotting the entirety of Bleach as a whole.

And yes, Aizen could fool Radditz into drowning himself, but that's suggesting Kyoka will work on him in the first place.

And as we've seen DOZENS of times in Bleach, a vastly superior energy will negate any damage from a vastly weaker one. Meaning that Radditz, who is vastly stronger than ANYONE we've seen in all of Bleach, would simply shrug Kyoka off.

Just like Aizen did to Suzumebachi, and just like Kenpachi did to Zangetsu.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No one is saying he wouldn't be able to fool Radditz. What I'm saying is that he has literally no way of harming him, let alone defeating him. While Radditz can simply power through all of his attacks, including Kyoka. And then Radditz has moon+ attacks, capable of one-shotting the entirety of Bleach as a whole.

And yes, Aizen could fool Radditz into drowning himself, but that's suggesting Kyoka will work on him in the first place.

And as we've seen DOZENS of times in Bleach, a vastly superior energy will negate any damage from a vastly weaker one. Meaning that Radditz, who is vastly stronger than ANYONE we've seen in all of Bleach, would simply shrug Kyoka off.

Just like Aizen did to Suzumebachi, and just like Kenpachi did to Zangetsu.

show me an instance where kyoka was powered out of

Show me an instance where Goku destroyed a planet, otherwise, he can't.

Originally posted by yungz22
show me an instance where kyoka was powered out of

You're an idiot.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. First off, the statement was not just for Soifon's shikai. It was for ALL sword abilities in general, in Bleach. The statement was made by Aizen himself.

http://i7.mangapanda.com/bleach/391/bleach-2400793.jpg

He explicitly states that in a battle of reiatsu, if one is large enough, it can "suppress" the ENTIRE ability.

2. The reason Yamamoto couldn't break out of it, or suppress it, was simply that he wasn't strong enough. The difference between Aizen and Soifon was MUCH larger than the difference between Aizen and Yamamoto, who were arguably peers in strength.

The point is that if a character could be one-shotted by another, it is usually accepted that the weaker of the two couldn't hurt the other, even with any special abilities they might have. At least when it comes to Bleach/Zanpaktou.

3. Then finish him off? Aizen doesn't have any attacks capable of SCRATCHING Radditz, let alone finishing him. And if he had Radditz fly into outer space, he'd be out of range of his shikai. Meaning Radditz would simply U-turn, and nuke the continent they're on.

4. It doesn't matter how dumb Radditz is. He is dumb for a reason. There is not a SINGLE thing that Aizen could do to hurt Radditz, let alone kill him. None of his attacks are potent enough to kill someone that can TANK MOON BUSTING ATTACKS without even flinching.

So, to recap, Radditz would simply flare some ki and break out of Aizen's kyoka, and then proceed to rofl-stomp him, before ripping his spine out, or some other Saiyan brutality.

1. Going by Aizen's word is self-defeating as Aizen (via Gin) is the one who told us that the only way to escape from kyouka suigetsu's power was touching the blade itself before hypnosis could be completed.

http://i4.mangareader.net/bleach/414/bleach-2399757.jpg

If Kubo had intended to suggest that it could outright be overpowered via superuor reitsu, he could have easily done so with Yammamoto or Ywhach.


2. You tell us that the reason Yamamoto couldn't break out of it, or suppress it, was because he wasn't strong enough. This is speculative and not supported by anything in the source material. What we do know was that Yamamoto was stronger and that Ywhach is significantly stronger, but the technique worked just fine against them. Therefore, Aizen's comment to Soifon is clearly not absolute.

3. This disregards much of DB and DBZ. Aizen has plenty of attacks capable of dispatching Raditz while his guard is down. Let us remember that even SSGSSJ Goku can be taken down by a mere beam rifle when his guard isn't up. The effectiveness of off guard attacks in the Dragon Ball series has been consistent throughout the entire manga. Here, we're not even talking about getting in one cheap shot against Raditz. We're talking about him getting murdered while he is literally none the wiser (pain, sight, smell, hearing and taste all neutralized or otherwise manipulated) and at Aizen's leisure.

You mention being outside the range of Aizen's shikai, but I don't recall there being any specific range. Only that once someone see's his shikai, Aizen can manipulate their senses. Not to mention that it's a moot point as Aizen can fly, thus stop short of leaving the atmosphere if necessary.

4. You tell us that Raditz would flare up some ki and break out of kyoka suigetsu, but this assumes he'd even know he was under the effects of hypnosis in the first place, much less the issues in #1 and #2.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're an idiot.


im an idiot because kyoka hasnt been powered out of lol?

your saying it can be yet you cant support the claim

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Show me an instance where Goku destroyed a planet, otherwise, he can't.

goku can destroy planets simply because of logic.... aizen's kyoka on the other hand cnt be powered out of simply because someone who is leagues stronger than him couldnt and was still affected by it

This is obvious too. Bleach haxxx are stated to be irrelevant when faced with far greater reiatsu. The fact that Yamamoto could be affected just means he wasn't that far out of Aizen's league.

Originally posted by yungz22
goku can destroy planets simply because of logic....
Logic also tells he cant/wont......

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is obvious too. Bleach haxxx are stated to be irrelevant when faced with far greater reiatsu. The fact that Yamamoto could be affected just means he wasn't that far out of Aizen's league.


ummm aizen stated that hed never be able to defeat yama ji that means in fact that he is leagues stronger lol if he wasnt he wouldnt say he had no chance lol

Dont see why this is still up.... aizen wins.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
1. Going by Aizen's word is self-defeating as Aizen (via Gin) is the one who told us that the only way to escape from kyouka suigetsu's power was touching the blade itself before hypnosis could be completed.

http://i4.mangareader.net/bleach/414/bleach-2399757.jpg

If Kubo had intended to suggest that it could outright be overpowered via superuor reitsu, he could have easily done so with Yammamoto or Ywhach.


2. You tell us that the reason Yamamoto couldn't break out of it, or suppress it, was because he wasn't strong enough. This is speculative and not supported by anything in the source material. What we do know was that Yamamoto was stronger and that Ywhach is significantly stronger, but the technique worked just fine against them. Therefore, Aizen's comment to Soifon is clearly not absolute.

3. This disregards much of DB and DBZ. Aizen has plenty of attacks capable of dispatching Raditz while his guard is down. Let us remember that even SSGSSJ Goku can be taken down by a mere beam rifle when his guard isn't up. The effectiveness of off guard attacks in the Dragon Ball series has been consistent throughout the entire manga. Here, we're not even talking about getting in one cheap shot against Raditz. We're talking about him getting murdered while he is literally none the wiser (pain, sight, smell, hearing and taste all neutralized or otherwise manipulated) and at Aizen's leisure.

You mention being outside the range of Aizen's shikai, but I don't recall there being any specific range. Only that once someone see's his shikai, Aizen can manipulate their senses. Not to mention that it's a moot point as Aizen can fly, thus stop short of leaving the atmosphere if necessary.

4. You tell us that Raditz would flare up some ki and break out of kyoka suigetsu, but this assumes he'd even know he was under the effects of hypnosis in the first place, much less the issues in #1 and #2.

Only point to counter here. What about Krillin and Trunks, who, even at a state that was STOMPING 2nd form cell, could not even hurt Perfect Cell until Trunks rose his power up?... Toriyama is starting to **** a beloved anime series.

So, do we take the logic of the new Show/Canon Movies, or the logic of DBZ? Thats debatable, I guess you could say that since its newer and still done by Akira Toriyama, it renders the other feat non-canon, since he's the one who changed it. But... it happened, and it was canon before DBS.

Why is this bumped lol Aizen wins!

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Only point to counter here. What about Krillin and Trunks, who, even at a state that was STOMPING 2nd form cell, could not even hurt Perfect Cell until Trunks rose his power up?... Toriyama is starting to **** a beloved anime series.

So, do we take the logic of the new Show/Canon Movies, or the logic of DBZ? Thats debatable, I guess you could say that since its newer and still done by Akira Toriyama, it renders the other feat non-canon, since he's the one who changed it. But... it happened, and it was canon before DBS. Neither Trunks nor Krillin got Cell off guard. On the other hand, Vegeta tricked Cell into dropping his guard and would've surely killed him if not for Cell's regen. Honestly, the logic is pretty consistent. It's how Krillin is able to send Recoome flying long enough for Gohan to save Vegeta. It's how Gohan and Krillin, almost out of ki, are able hurt Frieza in his final form. It's how Piccolo is able to send Frieza flying despite being in his final form. It's how Goten and Trunks can send the fat buu flying, thereby saving Vegeta's life. It's how Yajirobe can slice off the tail of Great Ape Vegeta. It's how Majin Vegeta KO'D SSJ2 Goku in one blow, literally saying the exact thing I'm saying right now afterwards. It's been the same throughout the entire series. Durability is heavily dependent on having your guard up. There's a reason General Tao was seemingly killed by a mere grenade and a reason Red Ribbon Arc Goku was nearly killed by a shotgun.

If Aizen is attacking a Raditz with his guard permanently down, moonbusting durabiltiy isn't going to matter in the slightest.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Only point to counter here. What about Krillin and Trunks, who, even at a state that was STOMPING 2nd form cell, could not even hurt Perfect Cell until Trunks rose his power up?... Toriyama is starting to **** a beloved anime series.

So, do we take the logic of the new Show/Canon Movies, or the logic of DBZ? Thats debatable, I guess you could say that since its newer and still done by Akira Toriyama, it renders the other feat non-canon, since he's the one who changed it. But... it happened, and it was canon before DBS.


ummm cell had hid gaurd up in his perfect form against them he was fully aware of their presence

Aizen wins.....Ki will NOT work here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is obvious too. Bleach haxxx are stated to be irrelevant when faced with far greater reiatsu. The fact that Yamamoto could be affected just means he wasn't that far out of Aizen's league.

^ This.

Too bad everyone else here is a moron.

You call everyone moron but when they request you to post official sources you just troll around it dont be a hypocrite.

Okay I'm not sure why this is even being indulged. What should of tipped everyone off is when someone tried to use a low end feat to try to suggest DBZ characters are somehow only durable if they're actively concentrating or something.

Which isn't really the case. It's a low end feat for someone to be hurt by any kind of rifle.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay I'm not sure why this is even being indulged. I'm not even sure why you're commenting to be honest. If you'd like to have an actual conversation, you're welcome to address the examples I provided of significantly weaker characters getting effective hits in due to the opponent's guard being down. You can also address why Majin Vegeta was lying to an unconscious Goku as to how he knocked him out so easily or why he simply had no clue what he was talking about. Your position requires disregarding significant portions of the source material and outright ignoring any stated explanation we're given as to how these events occurred.

Situations where specific justifications are given for a character's weakness are not to automatically be confused with low-end feats. Otherwise, every instance of Superman getting injured while under the influence of kryptonite is a low-end feat. Here, not only is Goku unaware of Frieza's minion, but we're given an explanation as to how it occurred. An explanation we've actually been given before for similar occurrences of Goku easily being KO'd or significantly injured. In Dragon Ball, villains would frequently exploit this tendency of Goku's.

Of course, if you'd just like to pop in and shoot your mouth off, have at it.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Neither Trunks nor Krillin got Cell off guard. On the other hand, Vegeta tricked Cell into dropping his guard and would've surely killed him if not for Cell's regen. Honestly, the logic is pretty consistent. It's how Krillin is able to send Recoome flying long enough for Gohan to save Vegeta. It's how Gohan and Krillin, almost out of ki, are able hurt Frieza in his final form. It's how Piccolo is able to send Frieza flying despite being in his final form. It's how Goten and Trunks can send the fat buu flying, thereby saving Vegeta's life. It's how Yajirobe can slice off the tail of Great Ape Vegeta. It's how Majin Vegeta KO'D SSJ2 Goku in one blow, literally saying the exact thing I'm saying right now afterwards. It's been the same throughout the entire series. Durability is heavily dependent on having your guard up. There's a reason General Tao was seemingly killed by a mere grenade and a reason Red Ribbon Arc Goku was nearly killed by a shotgun.

If Aizen is attacking a Raditz with his guard permanently down, moonbusting durabiltiy isn't going to matter in the slightest.

Cell had his arms down by his side while trunks and krillin were pummeling him and he didn't even budge.

watch?v=9LkB8m2GKmg

See here.

Off-Guard, in the DB universe, means not blocking.

If Goku had a block up while "Off-Guard" I'm sure he wouldn't have been taken down by that Blast.

It doesn't make much sense how an attack works while someone's distracted, but when they aren't, the attacks are null.

Two things on the Cell example: (1) That wasn't in the manga. Krillin was the only one repeatedly punching/kicking Cell without effect (the anime took some pretty extreme liberties since this is the same Trunks who was later slapping Cell around, albeit briefly against a suppressed Cell. Not to mention that part about Krillin using the kiezen on cell didn't happen either). (2) For DBZ purposes, having your guard down doesn't necessarily mean not having your arms up. For example:

watch?v=MVCTdHhOCgY

http://i5.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/102/dragon-ball-2510409.jpg

The Mummy concludes Goku has no openings in his "stance" and that he's guarding himself really well.

What it really boils down to is something else entirely. You'll recall when Krillin nearly killed Vegeta on Namek. How did he do this against someone who's fighting power was roughly 50x higher at that point? Very simple.

http://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/303/dragon-ball-69542.jpg

http://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/303/dragon-ball-69545.jpg

He lowered his defenses. Now how does this works precisely is never something we're given an explanation, but we do know that guard is a conscious effort and that it can be lowered and raised unlike someone such as Superman, whose durability is entirely independent of whether he wants it or not.

I'll give you another example:

http://i2.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/487/dragon-ball-72082.jpg

The bullets fly right through Super Buu, someone whose well beyond planetary level in terms of power and durability. We've seen him effortlessly shrug off blows from SSJ Gotenks. So why do bullets work against him? Very simple. He allowed them.

Now Toriyama never comes right out and says it, but the very likely explanation here is that guard functions based upon how much ki one is pouring into their defenses (think of shields from Star Trek). This is not to say that there's no base durability without ki being a factor, but it does explain how Krillin can nearly kill Vegeta despite being 50x weaker, how Krillin can send Recoome flying, how Gohan and Krillin can hurt Frieza despite him being in his final form, how Piccolo can send Frieza flying despite him being in his final form and even how Sorbet can mortally wound SSJSSG Goku. It's consistent and makes sense.

I agree with Dark.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I'm not even sure why you're commenting to be honest. If you'd like to have an actual conversation, you're welcome to address the examples I provided of significantly weaker characters getting effective hits in due to the opponent's guard being down. You can also address why Majin Vegeta was lying to an unconscious Goku as to how he knocked him out so easily or why he simply had no clue what he was talking about. Your position requires disregarding significant portions of the source material and outright ignoring any stated explanation we're given as to how these events occurred.

Vegeta with Krillin specifically lowered his defenses. As for Vegeta knocking out Goku..there is a world of difference between that and you speaking about beam rifles hurting them. By your logic I could shank Goku in his sleep.

For most of the series their durability isn't significantly lowered when not paying attention. That is the reason my comment was so flippant, because you seem to be ignoring this by using a few specific instances, most of which have explanations.



Again though I have no problem with other super powered beings catching people off guard, but you need to realize those people have power. With your beam rifle example..that doesn't pack anywhere near the punch of even the weakest of Frieza's minions.

Just to be clear I'm not saying they can't concentrate and increase their defenses, I'm merely saying that even when not concentrating it is not like they have extremely low durability, which is what you seemed to be implying.

So I apologize for being rude.

I agree with Surtur.

aizen could make raditz spend all of his energy like vegetadid against buu by making raditz fight an enemy that continously regenerates like buu. he could do this with kyoka