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same scene as ROTS. Sidious reveals himself to Anakin. Anakin tells Mace, except Mace brings Quinlan Vos DD instead of the b-team. Quinlan is very angry but on Mace's side. DD feats.

what happens after Sidious says "it's treason then"

Team takes sabers

Sidious takes force

All out would say the team can take this for a 7/10. I'm very conflicted here. Sidious isn't blitzing anyone, and his power in the force is what tips this, but I'm not sure if it will come in handy with these two all over him.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Team takes sabers

Sidious takes force

All out would say the team can take this for a 7/10. I'm very conflicted here. Sidious isn't blitzing anyone, and his power in the force is what tips this, but I'm not sure if it will come in handy with these two all over him.

u dont think quinlan dd will be stab in under 2 seconds like all-3 b-teamers

Assuming Quinlan is performing at the levels he did when he defeated Dooku, Sidious should lose here. Dooku is Mace's equal, no way is Sidious defeating two Mace Windus

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Assuming Quinlan is performing at the levels he did when he defeated Dooku, Sidious should lose here. Dooku is Mace's equal, no way is Sidious defeating two Mace Windus

well there was yoda and anakin vs sidious in a vision
after ani kills dooku.

sidious pwn anakin

Originally posted by redpill
well there was yoda and anakin vs sidious in a vision
after ani kills dooku.

sidious pwn anakin

In that same vision Anakin pwns Dooku in about 10 seconds flat. Not really viable feats there. That part of the vision was more symbolic.

quinlan vs sidious should be fun

Originally posted by redpill
quinlan vs sidious should be fun

Sidious wrecks Vos in the force though.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sidious wrecks Vos in the force though. i meant in rebels lol.

Originally posted by redpill
u dont think quinlan dd will be stab in under 2 seconds like all-3 b-teamers

Anyone who can hold their own agisnst Dooku like Vos did isn't getting blitzed. Vos would last a good minute to 1:18 seconds in a pure one on one, maybe a little longer.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Anyone who can hold their own agisnst Dooku like Vos did isn't getting blitzed. Vos would last a good minute to 1:18 seconds in a pure one on one, maybe a little longer. so why did b team get blitz? bc they ****in suck thats wy

Originally posted by redpill
so why did b team get blitz? bc they ****in suck thats wy l
There not as good as Dooku or Mace or Vos and Sidious was way to fast and skilled.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
l
There not as good as Dooku or Mace or Vos and Sidious was way to fast and skilled. why did mace pick 3 weak jedis

Originally posted by redpill
so why did b team get blitz? bc they ****in suck thats wy

Because they'd prepared to face a Dooku+ tier Sith Lord, not the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. They also get played like fools with their belts untied in the novelisation where he literally convinces them to lower their guard. Doesn't help that the light side's cosmic Force capabilities had been completely blacked out by Dark Side interference.

Not to mention that an ancient Sith shrine had been underneath the Jedi Temple the entire time and could easily have been dampening their Force abilities if not outright amping Sids.

In the movie he simply moves faster than Tiin and Kolar can react to, them getting blitzed by an all-out Palpatine is unsurprising.

Team.

Considering Mace is capable of soloing.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because they'd prepared to face a Dooku+ tier Sith Lord, not the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. They also get played like fools with their belts untied in the novelisation where he literally convinces them to lower their guard. Doesn't help that the light side's cosmic Force capabilities had been completely blacked out by Dark Side interference.

Not to mention that an ancient Sith shrine had been underneath the Jedi Temple the entire time and could easily have been dampening their Force abilities if not outright amping Sids.

In the movie he simply moves faster than Tiin and Kolar can react to, them getting blitzed by an all-out Palpatine is unsurprising.

quinlan vos is capable of dark side immersion for a short while at least

then he relapses into thelight

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Team.

Considering Mace is capable of soloing. So you've come over to my side acknowledging Windu did win.

Originally posted by redpill
why did mace pick 3 weak jedis

He did use them on another mission IIRC so he felt comfortable in their skills to assist him. However it could be that everyone else was preoccupied. Yoda off world. Same with plo koon, mundi, and obi. Shaak ti was defending the temple or dead delnding on if you take that deleted scene as her ultimate fate.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Team.

Considering Mace is capable of soloing.
I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't even say Mace using vaapad at its fullest if he fought him again could do as well. IMHO

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't even say Mace using vaapad at its fullest if he fought him again could do as well. IMHO

I just said he's capable of soloing. Not that he would for a majority or anything.

Maybe 3/10. Which is 3 more than any other Jedi is capable of in the PT/OT era sans Yoda

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you've come over to my side acknowledging Windu did win.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I just said he's capable of soloing. Not that he would for a majority or anything.

Maybe 3/10. Which is 3 more than any other Jedi is capable of in the PT/OT era sans Yoda

I get you. I just think that since they were equals and mace used his environment to win I wasand sure how that would work.

True

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I get you. I just think that since they were equals and mace used his environment to win I wasand sure how that would work.

True How did mace use the environment for the win ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How did mace use the environment for the win ?

Windu led Sidious to the balcony where he had to slow his movements down so he wouldn't slip off the balcony.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Windu led Sidious to the balcony where he had to slow his movements down so he wouldn't slip off the balcony. That is where the fight took them both. They were simply reacting and Windu was just better in this instance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is where the fight took them both. They were simply reacting and Windu was just better in this instance.

He used shatterpoint to find out that by taking himself and Sidious there he Sidious would slow down to make sure he doesn't fall off. In terms of deuling skill and speed they were completely even as stated by the novelization.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He used shatterpoint to find out that by taking himself and Sidious there he Sidious would slow down to make sure he doesn't fall off. In terms of deuling skill and speed they were completely even as stated by the novelization. So what you're saying is Windu is more attuned with his surroundings hence the win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So what you're saying is Windu is more attuned with his surroundings hence the win.

You would,have to read the novelization to get the full effect of the scene, so there is no room for mistake. He was boosted to a great exten which boosted Vaapad and Shatterpoint, so he has a lot going for him in that battle that he wouldn't otherwise receive agaisnt an opponent, even if he fought Sidious again.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You would,have to read the novelization to get the full effect of the scene, so there is no room for mistake. He was boosted to a great exten which boosted Vaapad and Shatterpoint, so he has a lot going for him in that battle that he wouldn't otherwise receive agaisnt an opponent, even if he fought Sidious again. Again why wouldn't he carry the same abilities he has ? You seem to speculate all over the place and contradict yourself.

Originally posted by redpill
why did mace pick 3 weak jedis Anakin was being a *****, and Yoda was gone.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Anakin was being a *****, and Yoda was gone. Correct. What he took was awful. I mean they didn't last ten seconds which even Opress did.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Again why wouldn't he carry the same abilities he has ? You seem to speculate all over the place and contradict yourself.

How do I contradict myself? I'm not speculating. It's stated right there in the novelization. Why would Sidious have that ability? What would lead you to believe that just because Windu had that ability Sidious would too?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How do I contradict myself? I'm not speculating. It's stated right there in the novelization. Why would Sidious have that ability? What would lead you to believe that just because Windu had that ability Sidious would too? I am saying Windu always has these abilities so acting like he doesn't is simply untrue.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am saying Windu always has these abilities so acting like he doesn't is simply untrue.

See that would interest me if they actaully came in handy in a battle situation ever again, and the one time that I can recall it wasn't bolstered by a huge boost that he has also never received before and the only reason he got this boost were from special circumstances. With that if he fought Sidious again he wouldn't be at the same level of power due to his inner anger being lower and thus Vaapad being lower aswell as Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
See that would interest me if they actaully came in handy in a battle situation ever again, and the one time that I can recall it wasn't bolstered by a huge boost that he has also never received before and the only reason he got this boost were from special circumstances. With that if he fought Sidious again he wouldn't be at the same level of power due to his inner anger being lower and thus Vaapad being lower aswell as Shatterpoint. You are speculating. Windu won. Sheev lost.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are speculating. Windu won. Sheev lost.

Not specualtion if it's based on the novelization and taken from the text.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Not specualtion if it's based on the novelization and taken from the text. You are speculating on future conflicts. What happened was Windu won. Nuff said.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are speculating on future conflicts. What happened was Windu won. Nuff said.

1st One instance that was circumstantial and had many factors to it especially doesn't decide future outcomes

2. The novelization explains his boost and makes it clear he won't get the same boost ever again.

No speculation just facts

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1st One instance that was circumstantial and had many factors to it especially doesn't decide future outcomes

2. The novelization explains his boost and makes it clear he won't get the same boost ever again.

No speculation just facts Everything is circumstantial.


When in the novel does it state he can never achieve that again ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Everything is circumstantial.


When in the novel does it state he can never achieve that again ? [/QUOTE

Glad you understand in this battle the circumstances of this battle.

When it explains what was feuling vaapad, it explains the passion and anger he felt and how it was something he never experienced before.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by quanchi112
Everything is circumstantial.


When in the novel does it state he can never achieve that again ? Not just this battle all battles. You are hypocritically acting like this is any different than any other unique battle.

It never says he couldn't do this again. I caught you.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2


2. The novelization explains his boost and makes it clear he won't get the same boost ever again.




Well he obviously won't because he died right after that fight

But seriously, assuming that was his "Best Ever" performance, then it obviously was a one-off because it was his last performance as well.

And I would argue it was at least a "Peak" performance for Mace considering just a few months earlier he lost to Darth Maul + 2 Mandalorians. Palpatine would rip through those three 10/10 times. And that's without help from Secura Lol.

So yes, the evidence and feats support you ES2.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well he obviously won't because he died right after that fight

But seriously, assuming that was his "Best Ever" performance, then it obviously was a one-off because it was his last performance as well.

And I would argue it was at least a "Peak" performance for Mace considering just a few months earlier he lost to Darth Maul + 2 Mandalorians. Palpatine would rip through those three 10/10 times. And that's without help from Secura Lol.

So yes, the evidence and feats support you ES2. Speculation at best. Abc logic isn't required when Windu beat Sidious.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not just this battle all battles. You are hypocritically acting like this is any different than any other unique battle.

It never says he couldn't do this again. I caught you.

Dooku vs Anakin in AOTC and Windu vs Sidious ROTS. Shall I list the many differences in that battle? See the difference.

No you didn't. It explains his boost and thus makes it clear that he would never receive that boost ever again.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well he obviously won't because he died right after that fight

But seriously, assuming that was his "Best Ever" performance, then it obviously was a one-off because it was his last performance as well.

And I would argue it was at least a "Peak" performance for Mace considering just a few months earlier he lost to Darth Maul + 2 Mandalorians. Palpatine would rip through those three 10/10 times. And that's without help from Secura Lol.

So yes, the evidence and feats support you ES2.

Yea I was also going off mental state as well. Psychologically speaking mace was in the heat of the moment, the highest point of internal anger ever, it makes it clear in the novelization that this was fueled by how the republic was being run by the Sith was why he was pissed. After that, even if he wasn't dead, his internal anger from a psychological stand point would be lower since he already fought him once and then Sidious won't have a plan either, just to fight. You agree right.

^ Yeah I mean focus/mental state is something that is known to greatly effect Jedi/Sith in combat.

Look at Kenobi and Ventress stalemating/losing to Maul + Opress one episode, then the next episode Kenobi stalemating Maul 1 v 1, then at the end of the same episode Kenobi stalemating/defeating Maul + Opress combined.

Filoni's commentary made it clear that the difference in these fights was Kenobi's focus/mental state. And that's clearly going to be more so with Mace given the nature of Vapaad.

Facts are:

Mace fought equally with Sidious when fighting for everything he believed in.

Sidious Stomped Maul + Opress together. The fight made it clear this would happen 10/10 times.

Mace + Secura lost to Maul + 2 Death Watch warriors, suggesting Maul + 2 Death Watch warriors would take a good majority against Mace alone.

Mace and Vos? 2muchunpredictable4Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace + Secura lost to Maul + 2 Death Watch warriors, suggesting Maul + 2 Death Watch warriors would take a good majority against Mace alone.

You should really stop saying that.

1. That fight was hella short to draw any conclusion from it.
2. Maul didn't win, he exploited the intervention of the Mandos and ran away.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You should really stop saying that.

1. That fight was hella short to draw any conclusion from it.
2. Maul didn't win, he exploited the intervention of the Mandos and ran away.

which tcw episode season i dont recall

Originally posted by redpill
which tcw episode season i dont recall

Neither. Son of Dathomir comic.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Neither. Son of Dathomir comic. ok is it worth reading good story? i liked dd

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You should really stop saying that.

1. That fight was hella short to draw any conclusion from it.
2. Maul didn't win, he exploited the intervention of the Mandos and ran away.
> says don't make assumptions
> makes several

Originally posted by redpill
ok is it worth reading good story? i liked dd

I'm not a comic book fan, but yeah it was good (would've been a lot better in TCW though).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
> says don't make assumptions
> makes several

Make an actual argument (if you are capable of that) or stop bothering me.

That you're hypocritical as ****? Pretty sure that was the argument I just made. Why don't you make up an argument that actually backs up what you said against DP? I agree with much of what he said, and look forward to you actually making a point yourself.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That you're hypocritical as ****? Pretty sure that was the argument I just made. Why don't you make up an argument that actually backs up what you said against DP? I agree with much of what he said, and look forward to you actually making a point yourself.

I already have.

If you have an actual counter for what I said, go ahead. Otherwise I'm really not interested in your trash-talking.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
> says don't make assumptions
> makes several The fight was pretty short, and Maul did exploit an opening to run away.

Didn't think people actually treated that engagement as definitive.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I already have.

If you have an actual counter for what I said, go ahead. Otherwise I'm really not interested in your trash-talking.
I'm not going to debate with you when DP is doing fine on his own, and my response to you would be the same as the one I'm giving to Benni. It wasn't short just because it was a few comic panels. It's a still medium, and Maul didn't "run away," because Mace, Aayla, or Clone Fodder 5 and 6 were a threat to him, so it's completely irrelevant.

It was two comic panels in which we see Maul kick Aayla in the face while blocking an attack from Mace, that's all, and that tells us next to nothing other than that he can contend with them.

In the end Maul fled (because yes Mace Windu is a threat to him) after Windu was caught off guard by a missile. This too tells us very little about a pair of Mandos ability to handle Mace in a straight up engagement, in which evasion would probably be involved.

All in all we can surmise next to nothing from the fight other than 1. Maul won't be blitzed by a Windu tier duelist, even with mid-tier backup 2. a missile blowing up in your face hurts.

Nothing we didn't already know, but not much else.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was two comic panels in which we see Maul kick Aayla in the face while blocking an attack from Mace, that tells us next to nothing other than that he can contend with them.

Point.

Point.

Point.

Glad you agree with me, Benni. cs is also making assumptions and being a total hypocrite.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Glad you agree with me, Benni. cs is also making assumptions and being a total hypocrite.

1. It's spelled Beni.
2. He actually agrees with me.
3. I made no assumptions. Your deranged opinions of it doesn't make it so.
4. Which doesn't make me a hypocrite.
5. You are all talk, no show. Can you actually do anything else than trash-talking? Even in that you aren't very good, Ant is better on his off-days.

Freshest is a great trash talker, tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You should really stop saying that.

1. That fight was hella short to draw any conclusion from it.
2. Maul didn't win, he exploited the intervention of the Mandos and ran away.


First do you know what point I'm even making?

1. The fight ended with Mace and Secura KO'd. Or at least lying injured and helpless. Pretty sure that's a win. Might have been a cheap shot, but it was still a win. The likelihood of Maul + 2 Mandos beating Sidious like that though is pretty low which is my point.

2. Yes Maul had the help of his 2 Mandos. I never said different.
Dooku escaped with Maul, does that mean Dooku ran away from his fight as well?

A win? Yes. But was it due to Maul's abilities really at all? No. Mace was KO'ed by a missile blowing him up, Sidious probably wouldn't be KO'ed by that. But what does that tell us? What relevancy does that have to Windu's ability to use Vaapad in non-extenuating circumstances? None.

I agree with you're overall claim but this ABC logic is flawed imo.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
First do you know what point I'm even making?

1. The fight ended with Mace and Secura KO'd. Or at least lying injured and helpless. Pretty sure that's a win. Might have been a cheap shot, but it was still a win. The likelihood of Maul + 2 Mandos beating Sidious like that though is pretty low which is my point.

If Sidious would be shot in the back with a rocket he'd feel it too. Probably he could keep going, but that proves nothing, since Aayla and Mace had to resort to their own endurance, so it doesn't equal Mace + Aalya.




Eh, yeah that's exactly what it means.

Could've Dooku beat Kenobi? Sure, but he didn't. He ran. So did Maul.

Likely Maul is not even superior to Windu. Saying that he legit beat Windu + Aalya is incorrect.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Dooku vs Anakin in AOTC and Windu vs Sidious ROTS. Shall I list the many differences in that battle? See the difference.

No you didn't. It explains his boost and thus makes it clear that he would never receive that boost ever again. You still speculate and act like you know for a fact he can't use this again. That's your opinion which isn't a fact.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You should really stop saying that.

1. That fight was hella short to draw any conclusion from it.
2. Maul didn't win, he exploited the intervention of the Mandos and ran away. Owned him.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Make an actual argument (if you are capable of that) or stop bothering me.
ROFL @ thinking SWTOR fodder can make demands to KMC elites.

BTW CS, are you claiming Maul was on the losing end of the battle, hence the retreat, or naw?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Owned him.
So you agree that Mace>Maul? Good to know.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If Sidious would be shot in the back with a rocket he'd feel it too. Probably he could keep going, but that proves nothing, since Aayla and Mace had to resort to their own endurance, so it doesn't equal Mace + Aalya.


It's actually not that easy to shoot Sidious in the back. And fighting Maul certainly isn't enough of a challenge for Sidious for him to easily be shot in that back.




Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Eh, yeah that's exactly what it means.

Could've Dooku beat Kenobi? Sure, but he didn't. He ran. So did Maul.

So you admit Dooku wasn't running specifically from Kenobi right? Good to know. Hence Maul wasn't running from Mace and Secura. Especially so since they were basically KO'd.




Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Likely Maul is not even superior to Windu. Saying that he legit beat Windu + Aalya is incorrect.


Who said Maul is superior to Windu?

I never said he legit beat Windu + Aalya by himself. Where are you getting that from?

I said Maul + 2 Mandos legit beat Windu + Aalya.

Whereas Sidious ripped through Maul + Opress combined.

Therefore feats support ES2's argument that Mace stalemating/defeating Sidious was a Peak performance for Windu. Because looking at their respective battles against Maul & Co., Windu's clearly not as Powerful a Combatant as Sidious (normally).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A win? Yes. But was it due to Maul's abilities really at all? No. Mace was KO'ed by a missile blowing him up, Sidious probably wouldn't be KO'ed by that. But what does that tell us? What relevancy does that have to Windu's ability to use Vaapad in non-extenuating circumstances? None.

I agree with you're overall claim but this ABC logic is flawed imo.


Sidious wouldn't even get hit by that. His Pre-Cog, Speed and Agility is just too good, and battling Maul really isn't such a big distraction for him to get hit by such a shot.

By the way how did Maul know to leap away from the shot? Because it seems his soldier shouted at him to move, so that should have given Aalya and Windu the same warning Maul got. Only difference was they were aiming at the Jedi, not at Maul.

Hence Maul + his 2 Mandos legit best Windu + Secura honestly.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sidious wouldn't even get hit by that. His Pre-Cog, Speed and Agility is just too good, and battling Maul really isn't such a big distraction for him to get hit by such a shot.What your argument essentially boils down to though is that Windu - in general - doesn't show Sidious-tier Force ability outside of his final duel. I think we all know that, but I think we also know that Windu isn't applying Vaapad when say, getting blown up.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4250239-darth+maul+speed+mace+aayla.jpg

So yes essentially, and though I feel it equally irrelevant, as Maul's soldiers we should expect him to be more coordinated and aware of their actions/presence than the Jedi.

Fact is though Windu has demonstrated more than enough speed, precog and agility to be capable of evading such an attack.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So you agree that Mace>Maul? Good to know. I have always been of that opinion despite Maul being my favorite character. I'm objective and don't just side with who I like more. I always go with logic and the evidence.

The amount of irony in that statement would make Mars blush.

KEK.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The amount of irony in that statement would make Mars blush. I just proved I'm not biased. You should try it sometime.