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Composite Canon/Legends Darth Vader as of Return of the Jedi faces a guantlet of Sith and Jedi.

1.Emperor Malgus
2.Darth Caedus
3.Darth Plagueis.
4.Darth Krayt.
5.Revan the Returned.
6.Master Yoda.

BOSS: Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith.

Vaders gets full rest and health between fights.
Assume Vader and his opponent use their entire arsenal.*
External amplifications are not applicable.

*The lone exception is a theoretical offensive application of Midichlorian Manipulation by Sith Lord Darth Plagueis, which is banned for the purposes of this thread.


Setting: The Imperial Palace.

Stops at 1.

This gauntlet is too much for Darth Vader.

The first fight should be a brutal one. The second one kills him in a close, intense duel.

2

2

This list needs to be reordered.

Considering how much above Starkiller Vader is I'm not so sure about Caedus being able to beat him anymore.

In depends on who you would consider the superior duelist.

Stops at 2

Stops at 3.
As far as for people saying two; make an argument.

The joke is, AP only put on people she puts above Vader in this thread. Petty. Just petty.

This order is ****ed

Stops at 2

2. Caedus will send his poor old granddad to the retirement home.

Stops at 2.

People who think Vader beats Caedus should have to provide an argument first tbh, not vice versa.

Nope. You're making the claim, so prove it. Fact is, most of you can't.

Loses most of these for a majority.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nope. You're making the claim, so prove it. Fact is, most of you can't. https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEdv3dXFNwMyTLso8/giphy.gif

When Vader gets Canon feats an argument always needs to be made for why he loses.

I mean the guy is going around crushing AT-AT's and X-Wings.

Not to mention he's been ranked above Sidious in Sabers

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not to mention he's been ranked above Sidious in Sabers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

Pre-prime Vader can house Starkiller. Caedus is getting destroyed.

Like he destroyed ROTJ Luke? mmm

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Caedus is getting destroyed.
http://rs1149.pbsrc.com/albums/o592/afrikanhub/Jordan_laughing.gif~c200

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Like he destroyed ROTJ Luke? mmm
As laughable as Vader destroying Caedus is, this retort is equally retarded.

Inb4 an actual argument.

So you admit you didn't actually give one?

Caedus is the greater duelist, but there isn't really a gap between them in force power when its Composite Vader at all. Vader has comparable showings of barrier, greater showings of telekinesis, and superior durability.

Carth, I admit I haven't been keeping up that much on Canon Vader. What barrier feats does he have now on par with blocking turbos?

Also, Caedus' pain tolerance / durability is pretty ****ing insane too. Fighting without an arm or surviving the Embrace of Pain is Vader level IMO.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So you admit you didn't actually give one? I wasn't aware that the fact Vader didn't destroy Luke was arguable. mmm

In so far as the debate proper goes, I haven't picked a side as of yet, so no I do not have an argument. Originally posted by carthage
Caedus is the greater duelist, but there isn't really a gap between them in force power when its Composite Vader at all. Vader has comparable showings of barrier, greater showings of telekinesis, and superior durability. I wouldn't say Vader has better TK feats to ragdolling Jaina with a thought. And surely not even flinching in the face of impalement and dismemberment is superior to any of Vader's showings.

Vader definitely has better feats against matter / objects, but Caedus on actual Force-users / penetrating Force barriers (like Revan).

Vader should have the environmental advantage but I can't picture him having a decisive edge over Caedus in a direct TK battle.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wouldn't say Vader has better TK feats to ragdolling Jaina with a thought.
Ragdolling Starkiller > ragdolling Jaina.

When did he ragdoll Starkiller? I can't keep up with all the different versions of TFU, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When did he ragdoll Starkiller? I can't keep up with all the different versions of TFU, tbh.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4721032-3759904972-47193.gif

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Ragdolling Starkiller > ragdolling Jaina. Starkiller > Jaina but beyond that you're forgetting key contexts, namely:

1. Caedus did so effortlessly and without a gesture.
2. Caedus had been dismembered and impaled.

Its also worth mentioning Starkiller wielded Juyo, a form that leaves one vulnerable to Force based attacks, although I'm not sure what form Jaina wielded. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its also worth mentioning Starkiller wielded Juyo, a form that leaves one vulnerable to lightsaber attacks, although I'm not sure what form Jaina wielded. mmm

Damn son, best form evur.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4721032-3759904972-47193.gif
Uh, wrong .gif? Temporarily lifting him with a Force choke doesn't come close to resembling a ragdoll, kek

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, wrong .gif? Temporarily lifting him with a Force choke doesn't come close to resembling a ragdoll, kek

It's pretty much the same what Dooku did to Kenobi...

Except Dooku then threw him against a structure hard enough to knock Kenobi unconscious.

The .gif provided looks like he did a Force choke that Starkiller managed to break away from and jump down.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Damn son, best form evur. I swear there is something in my drink...

EDIT: Tbh pretty sure Jaina managed to break free from her ragdolling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I swear there is something in my drink...

http://i.imgur.com/cjjKudg.gif

TBH I wouldn't call Caedus' display over Jaina "ragdolling" either.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://i.imgur.com/cjjKudg.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TBH I wouldn't call Caedus' display over Jaina "ragdolling" either. Meh, Force gripping then.

Shit, excuse the typos. Site isn't letting me edit shit atm.

@DC, Luke isn't really in any position to make objective claims on what Vader could or would have done, especially in the contexts of a desperate situation where he is speaking out of self-depreciation for his ability to challenge powerful Force users i.e. he's underrating himself, a moment of self-doubt.

There are plenty of more objective and impartial sources that claim otherwise. First off there is what Vader actually believed:Guess he was mistaken, right?

Then there are various objective out-of-universe sources:And for the record? Vader was not holding back, he was pissed and prepared to kill:I fail to see why Vader would hold back on TK if he intended to put the fear of God into him.

So sure, let's put this silly notion to rest shall we?

EDIT: Another quote to add the the pile:And credit to ShootingNova for most of these quotes.

Having a real shitty day now, so to avoid replying in a venemous way, I'll get to that AIDS-tier post tomorrow. Sit tight.

I look forward to it.

Good.

In all honesty I think he might make it to Yoda.

Beni, the final quote regarding their "strength in the Force" is related to physical strength, as indicated by "their duels are more than just about physical strength".

Luke, who was weaker than Vader in the force at the time, was his equal in physical strength?

Dat farmboy strength.

Better raw power-potential, less TK mastery.

Originally posted by ILS
Beni, the final quote regarding their "strength in the Force" is related to physical strength, as indicated by "their duels are more than just about physical strength". mmm That makes sense.

Force augmentation is an important indicator of Force mastery as well though.

It is indeed, in that sense I would say they are equal (or Luke is better, since he kind of beat Vader's ass). Luke is actually better even without his Force Rage since he isn't rocking augmented armor and a Sith Amulet like Vader. He just doesn't have the experience at that point.

ILS is just as retarded as I've always known, if he's suggesting Vader and Luke are equals in the Force as of RotJ.

Loses all.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
ILS is just as retarded as I've always known, if he's suggesting Vader and Luke are equals in the Force as of RotJ. You'd do well to interpret me properly if you're going to call me retarded, LAL.

Luke's raw power and potential > Vader's. How it manifests is through Luke's Force augmentation, which put Vader on his ass in spite of Vader also having augmented armor and a Sith amulet.

Vader's actualized power in abilities like TK, telepathy etc >>>>> Luke's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Stops at 1.

This gauntlet is too much for Darth Vader.

How is Darth Malgus defeating a more skilled and powerful opponent?

If he can get past Caedus he might make it to 5, maybe 6.

Originally posted by ILS
You'd do well to interpret me properly if you're going to call me retarded, LAL.

Luke's raw power and potential > Vader's. How it manifests is through Luke's Force augmentation, which put Vader on his ass in spite of Vader also having augmented armor and a Sith amulet.

Vader's actualized power in abilities like TK, telepathy etc >>>>> Luke's. So superior Control but inferior Alter, or rather superior powers of the body but inferior powers of mind and manipulation as they are now calling them. I can agree with that, however it doesn't mean Vader can dominate him with these abilities.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DC, Luke isn't really in any position to make objective claims on what Vader could or would have done, especially in the contexts of a desperate situation where he is speaking out of self-depreciation for his ability to challenge powerful Force users i.e. he's underrating himself, a moment of self-doubt.

There are plenty of more objective and impartial sources that claim otherwise. First off there is what Vader actually believed:Guess he was mistaken, right?

Then there are various objective out-of-universe sources:And for the record? Vader was not holding back, he was pissed and prepared to kill:I fail to see why Vader would hold back on TK if he intended to put the fear of God into him.

So sure, let's put this silly notion to rest shall we?

EDIT: Another quote to add the the pile:And credit to ShootingNova for most of these quotes.


ROTJ Novel's really outdated tbh. Unless you believe Uncle Owen is Kenobi's brother.

A lot's been revamped since then. Lucas in the ROTJ audio commentary states Luke wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader yet (scene where Luke visits Yoda).

In any case Vader was never going to TK Stomp Luke even if he could. He was attempting to turn Luke to the dark side, have him lash out in anger. Choking him out would accomplish nothing. He needed to fight him on even terms.

And their whole fight was a Saber only fight. Not once was TK used. Luke >/= Vader in Sabers, and no ones really questioning that (I don't think).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Luke >/= Vader in Sabers

And you know what that means...

ROTJ Luke>Sidious in sabers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
ROTJ Novel's really outdated tbh. Unless you believe Uncle Owen is Kenobi's brother.

A lot's been revamped since then. Lucas in the ROTJ audio commentary states Luke wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader yet (scene where Luke visits Yoda).Lucas presumably reviewed and green lighted the novels himself though, and obviously the script. Plot related retcons like Uncle Owen is one thing, but I find it very unlikely Lucas would have gone back on something so fundamental.

Essentially there is not necessarily a contradiction here, for one Luke evidently wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader, otherwise he wouldn't have been manipulated (using telepathy no less) into using the dark side.

However its evident from the fact that Vader didn't tool him a la ESB, and instead fights evenly with him, that he was equipped in some ways. The fact that Yoda tells him he has nothing more to learn, that Vader tells him his skills are complete, indicating the same.Vader wanted to press Luke into using the dark side, and convince him that he was prepared to kill. Telekinetically dominating him would have pushed Luke to desperation (calling for desperate measures) and make him aware of Vader as a deadly threat, I fail to see how that wouldn't facilitate all his goals.

Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB. It's called Dun Moch.

Bearing in mind that Luke's inferior TK, which I acknowledge, does not mean inferior Force defenses, these are entirely different spheres of ability. And there are plenty of others ways Luke could have defended himself (evasion, barriers etc.) without engaging in a direct contest.A lightsaber duel yes, but one in which Vader was bringing his "full strength and power" to bear. This is a battle between two Djem So duelists, as much a battle of strength as of skill. An individual "nowhere near" Vader's level of power is simply not going to be capable of withstanding such a barrage, they would be overpowered.

Luke's ability to match, if not surpass Vader's Force augmentative abilities demonstrates comparable Force mastery in that respect.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lucas presumably reviewed and green lighted the novels himself though, and obviously the script. Plot related retcons like Uncle Owen is one thing, but I find it very unlikely Lucas would have gone back on something so fundamental.

Essentially there is not necessarily a contradiction here, for one Luke evidently wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader, otherwise he wouldn't have been manipulated (using telepathy no less) into using the dark side.


Nah he said Physically and Mentally not prepared for this challenge due to the amount of time he'd been training as a Jedi.

Lucas greenlighting something 30 years ago < His own commentary 10 years ago after he'd just finished all 6 movies.

Never underestimate what Lucas can retcon.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
However its evident from the fact that Vader didn't tool him a la ESB, and instead fights evenly with him, that he was equipped in some ways. The fact that Yoda tells him he has nothing more to learn, that Vader tells him his skills are complete, indicating the same.Vader wanted to press Luke into using the dark side, and convince him that he was prepared to kill. Telekinetically dominating Luke would have pushed him to desperation (calling for desperate measures) and aware of Vader as a deadly threat, I fail to see how that wouldn't facilitate all his goals.
Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB.


Yes he was clearly equipped to fight on even terms with him (in some ways). But if Vader went all out to kill Luke none of that would have mattered.

Vader and Yoda's comments were in reference to Luke being ready for his Knight level trials (Luke states "So I am a Jedi?" to Yoda). Anakin was Knight level in TCW Movie. That didn't mean he could defeat Count Dooku already. Challenge him? Sure. Defeat him? There was a possibility I guess, but pretty unlikely at that point.

It's all speculation about what Vader could or couldn't have displayed with his TK in ROTJ. Because fact is he didn't display any. And like you correctly pointed out, he did in ESB.

You honestly think newly trained Knight level Luke had comparable TK to Vader, the guy with better TK Feats than any Jedi sans Yoda? The guy who crushed AT-AT's and X-Wings?

At the very least it's Vader's most potent weapon in combat and yet he didn't utilize it.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB.

Bearing in mind that Luke's inferior TK, which I acknowledge, does not mean inferior Force defenses, these are entirely different spheres of ability. And there are plenty of others ways Luke could have defended against Vader's TK (evasion, barriers etc.) without engaging in a direct contest.A lightsaber duel yes, but one in which Vader was bringing his "full strength and power" to bear. This is a battle between two Djem So duelists, as much a battle of strength as of skill. An individual "nowhere near" Vader's level of power is simply not going to be capable of withstanding such a barrage, they would be overpowered.

Luke's ability to match, if not surpass Vader's Force augmentative abilities demonstrates comparable Force mastery in that respect.


Force is applicable in different areas. Clearly Luke was a match for Vader in Sabers (which itself does require Force Powers), but not in TK, which Vader is a total beast in. TK is clearly his most potent weapon, which again he didn't even attempt to use. And he clearly had plenty of opportunities in the fight to at least Force Push Luke.

But we didn't see any of that.

So I would suggest just like TCW Movie Anakin was a fully trained Knight, and seemed to be a match (or almost a match) for Dooku in Sabers, yet clearly wasn't his overall equal, that the same applies to ROTJ Luke vs Vader.

Originally posted by ILS
You'd do well to interpret me properly if you're going to call me retarded, LAL.

I didn't flat-out call you retarded, honey. I said if you were suggesting Luke is > Vader in Force, then you are retarded.

Originally posted by ILS
Luke's raw power and potential > Vader's. How it manifests is through Luke's Force augmentation, which put Vader on his ass in spite of Vader also having augmented armor and a Sith amulet. Vader's actualized power in abilities like TK, telepathy etc >>>>> Luke's.

Well, yeah - I can agree with this. Luke's the slightly superior duelists and physical threat, while Vader mastery of the Force and such is far more powerful than Luke's.
E.I. he could be Luke through the Force if he was inclined to.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I said if you were suggesting Luke is > Vader in Force, then you are retarded.



Originally posted by Deronn_solo
while Vader mastery of the Force and such is far more powerful than Luke's.



Originally posted by Deronn_solo

E.I. he could be Luke through the Force if he was inclined to.



I think you mean TK. Not the Force, which is used in all aspects of combat including Saber fighting.

Nope. He means Force. Because Vader take the majority in almost all categories.

Well, yeah. When I say "in Force" I'm usually referring to TK if that's the only notable power the opponent can actually use to win.

I did say Luke is the superior duelist(which ties into stuff like precognition/premonitions) and other Sense retaled Force powers. As well as physical capabilities. Vader has Luke beat in all literally all other aspects of the Force and mastery with it, though. From Force Barrier, and Absorption, to Telekinetic strength, and telepathic potency.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader has Luke beat in all literally all other aspects of the Force and mastery with it, though. From Force Barrier, and Absorption, to Telekinetic strength, and telepathic potency.





And that's nothing against Luke. But a newly trained Knight simply can't match someone of Vader's caliber. Just like TCW Anakin was not yet Dooku's equal (despite Anakin having tons more potential than Dooku).

Anakin is way less of a prodigy than Luke.

Lulz

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah he said Physically and Mentally not prepared for this challenge due to the amount of time he'd been training as a Jedi.

Lucas greenlighting something 30 years ago < His own commentary 10 years ago after he'd just finished all 6 movies.

Never underestimate what Lucas can retcon.Don't suppose you have the quote?But according to the novel he did... unless George contradicts this in his commentary as well.I agree with that to an extent, though it makes me wonder why you claim Vader could have housed him as implied above.

However on the other hand the fact that he didn't choose to use TK, for no logical reason I can fathom, suggests it wouldn't have been as effective as you believe.Nope, covered below. Although Sas is prolly right when he said Vader didn't crush those X-Wings, but rather it was the debris he used to shield himself we see explode.Exactly, which begs the question why.

The idea that he didn't want to be too hard on Luke seems illogical.My point being that Luke doesn't have to match him in TK to defend against TK, speed, endurance, Force defenses etc. are all effective counters, and evidently Vader didn't think his powers would be all that effective considering he chose not to apply them, despite, as you say, having plenty of opportunities.

i.e. the ESB tactic wasn't going to cut it anymore against a new and improved Luke.I can agree with that, my argument is not that Luke is equal in Force mastery to Vader, only that he is in some important respects, and in that way, is not far off him as a Force user, and certainly not about to be dominated by Vader in the same way he was dismantled by Gethzerion.

Heck in your very example we have Dooku seemingly unable to dominate Anakin with his Force powers, as he was able to do in AoTC, its not an option anymore.

Isn't Vader > Gethz though?

Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.
http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Isn't Vader > Gethz though?

Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.
http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp

Mmm, that's from my RT, but now that I think of it, I honestly don't know how reliable the source would be, though Vader being more powerful than the other people I mentioned is obvious, and doesn't need such quotes. As with some other accolades, I added it more for completeness than anything else, but if you want to discuss its validity, be my guest.

Neat quote, Gethzerion used some kind of spell though so it was probably - like with Sith sorcery - more difficult for an inexperienced Luke to defend against. Vader's certainly never demonstrated that kind of ability.

EDIT: As for its validity, the commentary is pretty extensive so its not so kind of off-hand tagline, and according to Chee all published Star Wars material is canon, so I'd say its valid.

^^
That backtrack, though. Just accept that Luke is nowhere near Vader in the Force and move on, please.

Lol, I'll pass.

>Luke's best TK feat is barely holding up a AT-ST, and virtually shitting his pants while straining
>Vader's casual TK feat is tossing a Y-Wing with ease
>They're close
>Top-KEK

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
>Luke's best TK feat is barely holding up a AT-ST, and virtually shitting his pants while straining
>Vader's casual TK feat is tossing a Y-Wing with ease
>They're close
>Top-KEK Pretty sure that feat is ANH/post-ANH.

I'm pretty sure that feat took place 1 week after RotJ. I'm pretty sure Luke's best TK feat sans that during RotJ is....just saber throws, and activating bombs across Cloud City. I'm also pretty sure Vader yawns better TK feats than those.

Looks like his ANH jacket to me mmm not that Luke's TK is what's important here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Don't suppose you have the quote?But according to the novel he did... unless George contradicts this in his commentary as well.I agree with that to an extent, though it makes me wonder why you claim Vader could have housed him as implied above.


"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.






Originally posted by Beniboybling
However on the other hand the fact that he didn't choose to use TK, for no logical reason I can fathom, suggests it wouldn't have been as effective as you believe.Nope, covered below. Although Sas is prolly right when he said Vader didn't crush those X-Wings, but rather it was the debris he used to shield himself we see explode.Exactly, which begs the question why.

The idea that he didn't want to be too hard on Luke seems illogical.My point being that Luke doesn't have to match him in TK to defend against TK, speed, endurance, Force defenses etc. are all effective counters, and evidently Vader didn't think his powers would be all that effective considering he chose not to apply them, despite, as you say, having plenty of opportunities.


Honestly I don't see any logical reason why he would use Tk. How would choking him out, or battering him with TK turn him to the dark side this time? Heck if that's what was needed Vader and Palpatine could have just tortured him together.

Had to be a competitive fight where Luke could really lay into Vader as much as Vader could lay into him.

Also concerning the X-Wings, look he's crushed an AT-AT. And we'll see for sure on Wednesday what he's doing to the X-Wings. But looking at his feats he could probably force choke the likes of Darth Maul and Count Dooku. So I really don't see how ROTJ Luke would have the sufficient training to resist that.


The actual explanation for why Vader didn't use TK (btw) is that Lucas probably hadn't worked out all the different aspects of how Jedi fight and how trained you had to be to handle that sort of thing, when he made ROTJ. And now both him (and us) have to make the pieces fit with all the info at hand.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.

And clearly he stepped up to the challenge. He was unprepared, but he still overcame that and succeeded.

nopenopenope training = everything if luke is half trained hes half trained PERIOD

Luke being half trained and still kicked Vader"s ass, tbh

Kind off GL said that, when the movies directly state that Luke has grown and his skills are complete.

Vader meant his training as a Jedi. Luke would have been his apprentice for decades to come.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader meant his training as a Jedi. Luke would have been his apprentice for decades to come.

Right, so I don't see if his training as a Jedi was complete, how he was half trained? You also have Yoda saying the only thing left, is for him to confront Vader, you have Sidious remarking he has grown strong too and his showing in the Rancor Pit, Sarlacc Pit on Endor and his final duel with Vader show a far superior Luke than in ESB.

Unless Lucas is meaning something else, I'm not seeing where this fits.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.Interesting, but I find myself agreeing with Sas tbh, the physical challenge Lucas refers to was overcome when he matched Vader's blows pound for pound, and the emotional challenge when he resisted the temptations of the dark side.

Luke obviously wasn't in the best position to fight Vader, but he did very well regardless, something various sources confirm, and I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction here.

What this commentary doesn't state is that Luke was outclassed by Vader's Force mastery, or that his only saving face was Vader holding back on his powers.Well there is a fine line between desperation and hopelessness, roughing him up with a bit of TK would have helped demonstrated his superiority and threat level, it's classic Dun Moch and a tactic Vader has favored multiple times in the past.

And with Vader pissed and intending to kill, I see little reason for Vader to go soft on him.Probably, but Force resistance is a pretty basic and formative power for Jedi & Sith alike. Luke is also stronger than both these individuals so at the very least could break free. Really it's just not logical to assume Vader could telekinetically dominate someone who can match if not surpass him in Force augmentation.Probably, but there are other ways they could have demonstrated telekinetically superiority and Force mastery in general, as they did in ESB.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right, so I don't see if his training as a Jedi was complete, how he was half trained? You also have Yoda saying the only thing left, is for him to confront Vader, you have Sidious remarking he has grown strong too and his showing in the Rancor Pit, Sarlacc Pit on Endor and his final duel with Vader show a far superior Luke than in ESB.

Unless Lucas is meaning something else, I'm not seeing where this fits.
To become a Jedi Knight. That's far from being a master, which would be for intents and purposes fully trained.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
To become a Jedi Knight. That's far from being a master, which would be for intents and purposes fully trained.

A Jedi Knight is a fully trained Jedi though?

^ Half trained to overthrow Vader methinks. That's why Lucas goes on to explain he's not fully equipped to handle Vader.

A fully trained Knight isn't on Vader's level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And clearly he stepped up to the challenge. He was unprepared, but he still overcame that and succeeded.



Not denying that.

Much like Kenobi stepped up to the challenge of facing and defeating Maul 1 v 1 when he was forced to at the end of TPM, even though his training also wasn't at a level to make him Maul's equal yet.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Looks like his ANH jacket to me mmm not that Luke's TK is what's important here.

Nah. And how is TK not important, when discussing Luke's power in the Force to Vader?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not denying that.

Much like Kenobi stepped up to the challenge of facing and defeating Maul 1 v 1 when he was forced to at the end of TPM, even though his training also wasn't at a level to make him Maul's equal yet.

Luke didn't cheapshot Vader.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke didn't cheapshot Vader.


And Vader never TK'd Luke


Also what Kenobi did to Maul wasn't a cheap shot tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Interesting, but I find myself agreeing with Sas tbh, the physical challenge Lucas refers to was overcome when he matched Vader's blows pound for pound, and the emotional challenge when he resisted the temptations of the dark side.


But Strange he could do both when Lucas claimed he wasn't trained well enough don't you think?


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Luke obviously wasn't in the best position to fight Vader, but he did very well regardless, something various sources confirm, and I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction here.


Not denying that. I've brought up the example of how well TPM Kenobi did against Maul, despite not being anywhere near as well trained as Maul was at the time.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
What this commentary doesn't state is that Luke was outclassed by Vader's Force mastery,

I think physical challenge kind of covers that tbh. Or did you really expect him to say "Physical, Emotional and TK Challenge.." ?



Originally posted by Beniboybling
or that his only saving face was Vader holding back on his powers.


That's not mentioned. But he did confirm Luke wasn't really his equal at this stage. Since I agree with you that he was a definite challenge in Sabers, I'm left to believe the reason he wasn't trained well enough to face Vader was his lack of TK Mastery in comparison to Vader's.

Plus looking throughout the Saga at examples like TCW Anakin vs Dooku, makes it clear even the guy with the highest potential, isn't going to have Dooku/Vader level of Force Mastery at such an early stage in his Jedi career. Perhaps if Luke stayed on Dagobah with Yoda he would have been the first to reach such an advanced stage so early (which is what it seems Lucas was referring to).



Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well there is a fine line between desperation and hopelessness, roughing him up with a bit of TK would have helped demonstrated his superiority and threat level, it's classic Dun Moch and a tactic Vader has favored multiple times in the past.

And with Vader pissed and intending to kill, I see little reason for Vader to go soft on him.Probably, but Force resistance is a pretty basic and formative power for Jedi & Sith alike. Luke is also stronger than both these individuals so at the very least could break free. Really it's just not logical to assume Vader could telekinetically dominate someone who can match if not surpass him in Force augmentation.Probably, but there are other ways they could have demonstrated telekinetically superiority and Force mastery in general, as they did in ESB.


Again just looking at TCW Anakin vs Dooku, Vader's TK should at the very least give him the definitive edge over ROTJ Luke.

But fact is he didn't utilize TK against him for some reason (my guess would be to fight competitively against him), when there were definite gaps in the fight, so definite opportunities to do so.

Of course the real reason was inconsistent fight choreography throughout the saga, and Lucas not really knowing at the time where he was going with training level of different Jedi powers. But now when we put everything together we have to reanalyze it just as Lucas has done himself.