Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Well, trying this for the second time...

http://i.imgur.com/5NZwGjJ.png

Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJZ5ikpqMGU&t=0m32s

Khan Noonien Singh from Star Trek: Into Darkness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LThIRkpYtI&t=1m08s

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RULES FOR THE FIGHT:

- Khan gets his weapons as shown in his battle with the Klingons.
- Palpatine gets his weapons as shown in his battle on Mandalore.
- Battle takes place on the open fields of Lothal. No objects in sight.
- Canon versions only. Comics and novels are not to be included.
- This is a one versus one debate. If you are not Quan, don't post.

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http://37.media.tumblr.com/98fec9f537c8edfe5d8a44cb9ff63f44/tumblr_n3uwwuyCri1sj5155o10_500.gif

Palpatine's combat cowardice

I will show evidence of specific instances of the Emperor of both the galactic empire and the Sith showing extreme cowardice and poor decision making in the midst of battle. This raises a valid question since these guys are both fighting in character. At what point would Palpatine try to cut his losses and avoid any further conflict with Khan Noonien Singh. Would Palpatine act overconfident and cackle instead of pressing an advantage we see him ignore opportunities of capitalizing on vulnerable opponents. Just to note Palpatine isn't running from unfair or unarmed combat but whenever the opportunity arises where he might lose and/or die.

1. 2:41-2:43 Palpatine states, "Don't let him kill me." This shows he will beg and plead for someone else to help him escape his current situation if it's dire enough. He didn't have the determination to keep pressing him and acknowledged his vulnerability in this situation. He continues to beg before Anakin ultimately decides to intervene but the point is clearly made.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 1:32-1:37 Yoda states, "If so powerful you are then why leave." This shows the moment Yoda regains his composure and that there is going to be a fair fight Palpatine wants no part of it and tries to exit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q

The conclusion one can come to when analyzing these two pieces of evidence is Palpatine will probably be wary of a fight if he can sense the power behind Khan's phaser cannon or sees it in action. Palpatine isn't used to settling things for himself and usually has his apprentice or his own personal guard see combat through unless there's no other way out of it. Khan on the other hand is a ruthless combatant who calmly and skillfully tears through his foes with tactical efficiency. Khan doesn't waste time playing with his food. He swallows it whole.

Palpatine's combat buffoonery

Take a look at some of the asinine actions this ruthless dictator exhibits while under the heat of battle. Palpatine doesn't press the advantage when he has it and tends to play with his opponents which is ill advised and has ended up costing him dearly.


1. 2:17-2:57 in this clip we see Palpatine shoot force lightning for around forty seconds despite it being deflected back onto him. Why would he wait that long and inflict that much damage into himself before stopping this horribly ineffective attack. This is a very poor decision made under the duress of battle.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z98llqq5LYU

2. 44-1:19 seconds we see Yoda is unable to defend himself while Palpatine slowly walks without attacking or pressing his advantage. Yoda then after around 35 seconds later has the strength to recover and he force pushes a completely defenseless Palpatine. What's even more hysterical is this is the buffoon who outwitted the Jedi order. He stands around cackling and allows Yoda over a half a minute to recover and attack him.

3. 1:03 we see Palpatine doesn't press the advantage of having both of his opponents pressed up against the wall and laughs about like a madman. Once again this is another example of him not going for the immediate kill. 1:30 Palpatine is caught off guard and kicked backward before he uses his powers again to gain the advantage. 2:27-3:07 Palpatine gives Maul time to say goodbye to his brother and let the rage build up which isn't wise. He should have pressed his advantage but we see this isn't how Palpatine likes to engage his opponents with a ruthless kill but more or less torture them along the way.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU

4. Now we have the most offensive and moronic decision of all. This is where Palpatine tortures his apprentice's son right in front of him for around 42 seconds before he even intends on killing him. 0-42 in the clip before he intends on killing him. This whole entire process lasts over a minute and he doesn't see a problem with this long drawn out torture of a Vader's son right in front of him as biting him in the ass.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...p;v=4BOQI-LAEzM

5. At 52 seconds in Palpatine releases Luke from his bonds. At 58 seconds he dismisses the guards. Palpatine willingly dismisses every advantage he held over Luke in an effort to convert one Jedi when he already held the galaxy under his authority. Earlier in the film he questions Vader's motives regarding his son so this only further validates the lack of foresight Palpatine shows in this Luke scene.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPe-ly0BHM

6. 1:25 Palpatine admits Luke could destroy us and yet he still dismissed the guards and tortured him for over a minute with his father present. Are you kidding me ? This is despicable and offensive to anyone with a rational brain. This can't be explained away. The moment he failed to turn he should have destroyed Luke immediately. Luke was weaponless and instead of killing him ASAP Palpatine gave a speech hissing and snarling at him. Khan isn't the type of guy who gives speeches while in combat. That's a huge advantage for Khan.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBlw1gNWdg

Spock agrees Khan will win and we all know


http://24.media.tumblr.com/e82f29e60d27c25283c8bbb15936a007/tumblr_msv8h1q9rz1r60h6bo2_500.gif

All non-participant comments have been deleted.

Feel free to resume.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Palpatine's combat cowardice

I will show evidence of specific instances of the Emperor of both the galactic empire and the Sith showing extreme cowardice and poor decision making in the midst of battle.

This raises a valid question since these guys are both fighting in character. At what point would Palpatine try to cut his losses and avoid any further conflict with Khan Noonien Singh. Would Palpatine act overconfident and cackle instead of pressing an advantage we see him ignore opportunities of capitalizing on vulnerable opponents.

Just to note Palpatine isn't running from unfair or unarmed combat but whenever the opportunity arises where he might lose and/or die.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/7143a670544381ee0dac141ca1d38614/tumblr_mzys8nfrxf1st18yzo1_400.gif



Actually, it shows Palpatine knows how to be in control of a situation that he's at the clear disadvantage in (i.e. having a lightsaber jammed to his neck).

I'd like to reference back Nick Gillard's quote: "You're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."

Also, Palpatine wasn't genuine in his begging for mercy and pleading. The movie should make it obvious enough, but if not, here's Lucas':

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness."
--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."
--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

And it seems you take creator statements as canon, as you stated here:
Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucas isn't in charge so he can't decide what is canon anymore. Disney has decided the film is canon still, obviously. That means that his opinion carries weight since he directed the damn scene.
Originally posted by quanchi112
So you don't take Lucas' commentary or opinion seriously. Lots of people can theorize all they want their theory never made any sense. I bet people got all riled up to when it was proven the world was round but popular consensus doesn't mean much in the way of facts.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucas has stated Windu overcame him. There's no debate.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Filoni says otherwise. Can't argue with him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
They hardly got away. It's hard for me to justify it. 55 seconds to 1 minute.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/10/08/star-wars-rebels-dave-filoni-interview-nycc-2015?utm_source=IGN%20hub%20page&utm_medium=IGN%20(front%20page)&utm_content=18&utm_campaign=Blogroll

He didn't allow them to escape and confirmed here. I've always been right and you have always been wrong.
Well, with that, this point is dismissed. Move along.

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Why would Palpatine want to engage someone who is virtually his equal in a battle of fate when he literally just established his new Galactic Empire?

Palpatine wanting to fight him would be a retarded move when he now has armies of stormtroopers under his command.


Or the conclusion is that Palpatine is an intelligent bastard who doesn't want to risk everything he established for some petty fight, and even if he's in a losing situation during a fight he can manipulate to his advantage.


And what would you call his fight with Darth Maul and Savage Opress?

There was a million ways to get out of that fight but went there on his own free will.

Fighting two of the most powerful Sith in history doesn't seem like cowardice to me.


Khan has never fought an opponent like Palpatine. He's fought virtually fodder (i.e. the Klingons and the soldiers of that commanders ship).

The likes of Kirk, armed with only a blaster, doesn't compare to a Sith Lord with Force powers and a lightsaber that can cut through virtually anything.

When Palpatine gets serious, he ends the fight in a finger snap (throwback to Maul vs Palpatine at the end there).

If he genially views Khan as a challenge, he's not going to be a fool and play around. That's common sense that I'm sure the man who outwitted the entire Jedi Order has.

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Actually, he handled the Darth Maul and Savage Opress duo just fine despite playing around with them.


The attack didn't hurt him (he was exaggerating his weakness), only made Skywalker feel more compassion for him, which is what he wanted.

That being said, the novelization (co-written by George Lucas) portrays the notion that it was successful and came close to overcoming Windu.


He underestimated Yoda, true.


That's because he didn't consider them a threat.

He's going to play around with people he can definitively defeat because that's how he is.

That doesn't mean he's a poor combatant, and really just makes the entire display more impressive.


How is this remotely relevant to combat?

And true, he didn't expect it. What's Palpatine going to do, pelt Khan with lightning but then forget Khan Jr. is there?

Like shit man, none of this is relevant.

(Continued above)


So wanting to convert the Jedi who would have become more powerful than any being history is a tacical flaw on Palpatione's part?

... what the hell?


See above.

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In all honesty, nothing you typed above is relevant or applicable to a combat situation.

Can we actually discuss their fighting abilities now or do you want to waste all of our time some more?

I didn't sign up for this debate to hear you babble over how Palpatine is a lame villain. I do that enough in the SWEU section.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66




Actually, it shows Palpatine knows how to be in control of a situation that he's at the clear disadvantage in (i.e. having a lightsaber jammed to his neck).

I'd like to reference back Nick Gillard's quote: "You're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."

Also, Palpatine wasn't genuine in his begging for mercy and pleading. The movie should make it obvious enough, but if not, here's Lucas':

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness."
--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."
--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Palpatine does know how to manipulate Anakin. That is evidently clear but that has no bearing in a one on one fight. Palpatine was unable to change Windu's mind. So if we take the Anakin variable out of that situation Palpatine was a goner.

I do agree Palpatine was feigning weakness in order to gain sympathy from Anakin. It makes sense since he was unable to free himself from his current situation on his own. I do agree a creator's words on his own material matters. I don't want to derail this into a did he or did he not throw the fight. My points was that Palpatine was an idiot for force lightning horribly scarring him for over a half a minute until he did his manipulation for help thing. Palpatine must have a touch of masochism to let it go on for as long as he did.

Palpatine already engaged Yoda. Palpatine had Yoda at his mercy for 35 seconds. So we both agree Palpatine not killing him or even attacking him in 35 seconds is far more moronic. Palpatine was also cornered by Yoda. Yoda knew he had to take the fight to Palpatine because he had an empire to lose. Palpatine had thirty five seconds to leave the room. The fact he waited while cackling is moronic. 35 seconds of chances. How can you trust someone this stupid in battle ?

If he was so intelligent he'd leave or press the advantage with his opponent down. It doesn't take a genius to strike when his opponent is ko'd or vulnerable.



Palpatine already engaged Yoda. Palpatine had Yoda at his mercy for 35 seconds. So we both agree Palpatine not killing him or even attacking him in 35 seconds is stupid. Palpatine was also cornered by Yoda. Yoda knew he had to take the fight to Palpatine because he had an empire to lose. Palpatine had thirty five seconds to leave the room. The fact he waited while cackling is moronic. 35 seconds of wasted opportunity. How can you trust someone to go for the jugular when he's proven anything but that.

If he was so intelligent he'd leave or press the advantage with his opponent down. It doesn't take a genius to strike when their opponent is ko'd or vulnerable.

Opress is of no consequence and has been bested by Maul in under a minute. Maul was his former apprentice and a lot weaker than Palpatine. Maul was a rival but was obviously inferior to Palaptine who was very familiar with him as well as vastly superior in the ways of the force. To me it doesn't take courage to defeat someone you're superior than.

Here is Maul easily beating Opress showing he just doesn't compare. He isn't one of the greatest Sith Lords. Not at all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qc2SF6RuXUw


I do agree he's never met anyone like Palpatine since the force doesn't exist in the Trek universe or anything like it. It won't change his approach to the battle. The Klingons are not fodder since they were portrayed as >>>Spock, Kirk, Uhura, and other armed crew. You are right that Kirk doesn't compare to Palpatine but he also doesn't compare to Khan. The Lightsaber needs to get close enough to Khan to cut into his flesh.

Palpatine disarmed him and then had Maul at his mercy. Saying Palpatine can do that whenever he wants is ignoring the totality of the fight and proclaiming he can end it with this maneuver at any time. If you believe that you'd need to prove it. Think of this example. A fighter screws around since he's obviously superior and ko'd the inferior boxer with an uppercut. I then claim he can uppercut ko him at any point dismissing the previous punches, the awareness, and skills of the other boxer while blindly claiming my opinion to be a fact.

Palpatine saw Yoda as a challenge and let 35 seconds go by without attacking him. I already went over the Luke example but I've made my points and will just move on.
He did so due to being superior to them at the same skillset.

His skin was smoking and his face was left horribly scarred. Fl hurts. Acting as though 30 plus seconds of fl doesn't hurt is being disingenuous. His act of begging for mercy was effective on persuading Anakin but that doesn't mean the force lightning wasn't hurting or scarring him.

It didn't overcome Windu and he held off the assault with only Palpatine to feel the effects.


I agree they weren't a threat but Yoda was as was Luke. He played around with Yoda as well.

He does try to taunt his opponents and makes poor decisions in combat. You can still believe he wins but you can't explain away the moronic things he's done in combat.
I just want to point out how arrogant he is even against people he views as threats. If we don't back up the behavior of the characters in these matchups it's just baseless claims. It's just us telling how we'd use the powers of the combatant and forgetting about the characteristics and behavior of the characters.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(Continued above)


So wanting to convert the Jedi who would have become more powerful than any being history is a tacical flaw on Palpatione's part?

... what the hell?


See above.

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In all honesty, nothing you typed above is relevant or applicable to a combat situation.

Can we actually discuss their fighting abilities now or do you want to waste all of our time some more?

I didn't sign up for this debate to hear you babble over how Palpatine is a lame villain. I do that enough in the SWEU section. Risking his own life just to convert one really powerful Jedi is downright retarded. Palpatine held galactic authority. It's a risk he didn't need to take considering all the resources he had and the knowledge he had regarding Luke as a potential threat. Palpatine already held all the cards and shouldn't have even put himself in the same room as any potential threat.

I'm just establishing the behavior of the character to support my view on how this fight plays out. I understand that you'll disagree but I wanted to support Palpatine's behaviors in combat with numerous examples. We will get to their abilities next. I don't want to beat a dead horse and our points have been made. To avoid being redundant let's move on to the abilities of the characters.

Khan Noonien Singh's Advantages

1. Strength
2. Intelligence
3. Recovery/Healing/Resilience
4. Weaponry/Ranged Combat

The phaser cannon was a type of large and bulky hand-held directed energy weapon used by Khan Noonien Singh, a former operative of Section 31 of Starfleet. Despite its size, the weapon could be operated with a single hand and was carried with a shoulder strap.

When activated, phaser cannon produced powerful bright streams of energy and a loud roaring noise. The energy streams could slice through and vaporize holes into anything they were targeted at, from personnel to starship hulls.


The phaser rifle A type-3 phaser (often simply referred to as a phaser rifle) was the Federation classification of the rifle variation of the standard Starfleet phaser weapon.



5. Athleticism

I wanted to post the videos afterwards and describe the details as some encompass multiple advantages in the same video.

1.) Khan introducing himself

1. 25-30 seconds --Genetically engineered to be superior.
2. 1:25--1:29--"Because I am better." Kirk says, at what? Khan replies, "Everything."
3. 1:35-1:39--"Admiral Marcus needed a warrior's mind, my mind."
4. 1:47-1:52--"He wanted to explore my savagery. Intellect alone is useless in a fight."

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LThIRkpYtI

2.) Khan crushing Marcus' skull.
33 seconds into the video. Super strength feat far beyond anything we have seen from Palpatine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-gkvrkvH_Q

3.) Khan attacks Starfleet.

35-47: Khan knew Starfleet protocol and to use the manipulated bombing to set the Starfleet officers up to attack at this precise moment of vulnerability and confusion.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mTJS0L_Hs

4.) Khan takes on Klingons and subjugates Spock, Uhura, and Kirk.

55 seconds: Khan begins his assault on the Klingons.

1:17: Khan's phaser cannon shows its impressive firepower capable of taking out the Klingon ship with one blast.

1:26--1:37: Kirk takes on a Klingon in hand to hand combat while we see Spock taking one out with an accurate blast from his phaser weapon.

1:39--1:41: Khan use the phaser cannon to physically take out an incoming threat and having the superhuman awareness to then switch to long ranged threats with his other weapon.

1:47--1:48: We see Khan taking two Klingons out simultaneously.

1:51: Here we see Kirk shoot down a Klingon.

2:02--2:06: The Klingon reinforcements arrive onto the scene.

2:12--2:15: Kirk's strength give him the breakaway he needs to take out the Klingon before being overwhelmed by the next two.

2:18--2:21: The damage the Boolean gun does to a humanoid body with body armor.

2:25--2:27: Spock, Uhura, and Kirk regroup after Khan destroys the Klingons seek refuge. They are in awe of Khan's fighting skill and abilities.

2:28--2:29: Khan's phaser cannon destroying another ship.

2:40--2:48: Khan eradicating more Klingons.

2:51--2:54: Khan's amazing athleticism. Look at the superhuman distance he jumps with heavy clothing on as well using amazing accuracy while wielding his plasma rifle weapon.

2:45--2:46: Khan shows off how quickly his plasma rifle can fire off successive blasts.

2:55--3:01: Khan's incredible skill and hand to hand combat by decimating the Klingons in close quarters combat.

3:07--3:08: Khan easily shoots Spock's gun away before he can react.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K0cFLb-JmaQ

5.) Khan's melee combat and tactical awareness aboard Vengeance.

51-53:
"They know they won't be able to use their weapons here without destabilizing warpcore this giving us the advantage." Khan assesses the current situation he is in and puts himself in an advantageous position. Khan will immediately shoot to kill his opponent whose primary weapon is a laser sword.

1:57-2:07: We see how formidable Khan is in close quarters combat via his superhuman hand to hand combat skill.

2:08: Look at the distance the kick drives the man backwards. The kick also seems to put the man down.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uT8npGLg2g8

6.) Khan crash lands onto earth.

1:28-1:29 in--"There's no way anyone could survive." Spock responds, "He could."

2:02-2:05-- Khan jumps thirty meters. That equals around 98.4 feet. This is a superhuman display of athleticism.

3:55-3:59-- The necrotic host is brought back to life due to Khan's blood previously being injected into it. This means his blood is incredibly effective at healing to the point that in the right conditions Khan's blood can even resurrect a life.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zMwTbrA7v1I

7.) Khan vs. Spock fight.

1. 29-31 seconds : Bear witness to Khan hurtling himself aboard the ship.

36-37 seconds: Spock also displays superhuman athleticism jumping to grab ahold of the moving platform ship.

1:07 to 1:13 seconds in Khan resists the nerve pinch that ko'd Kirk in a few seconds.

Spock nerve pinches Kirk.

44 seconds to 46 seconds is how long it takes Spock to knock Kirk out.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HKs4bZHGcOk

1:32-1:33: Khan punches Spock backwards multiple feet in rather impressive fashion.

2:53--3:05: Khan is in the process of defeating Spock via crushing his skull.

3:08-3:20: Uhura phaser stun blasts Khan 8 times showing off his impressive resiliency/healing factor after the crash landing on Earth and engaging Spock for a knock down drag out fight after these two both sprinted a considerable distance.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

All of this evidence points to one inevitable outcome. Khan Noonien Singh is superhumanly accurate with his weaponry, incredibly ruthless, and has the necessary firepower to cut down Palpatine before he closes the distance between the two combatants. There is no evidence of Palpatine blocking anything this powerful or as wide as the bursts of energy from the phaser cannon. On top of that crucial point the phaser rifle can fire far faster successive blasts than what the Jedi are used to defending against in the Star Wars universe.. Khan's foe Palpatine is also prone to critical errors during combat due his own hubris.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/164f951661800738e5bb3c8a242e4f5b/tumblr_n2y2lnzBQU1rck739o2_250.gif

Will hopefully respond tonight. If not then definitely sometime before Saturday morning.

It's good to see some actual arguments in favor of Khan besides Palpatine being a "combat buffoon".

Once Christmas break comes expect fast-paced responses from me. I'm busy on weekdays generally.

BTW haven't forgotten about this. Hopefully today will respond.