Luke vs Vader

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Sinious
Canon/Legends feats apply

Force Only!

DE Luke vs ROTJ Vader

Who wins?

Beniboybling
DE Luke I would think. He should be logically more powerful than Vader at this point and if we compare AT-AT feats, Luke's is superior:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11117/111178634/4788437-luke+brings+down+imperial+walker+1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4788438-luke+brings+down+imperial+walker+2.jpg

He also shields himself from its turbolasers with ease whereas Vader gets blown up:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11117/111178634/4788399-luke+force+barrier.jpg

Though granted Vader was pre-ESB/ROTJ.

Vader likely remains in possession of superior knowledge and experience, but seeing as his offensive abilities are largely limited to TK, I don't see it giving him much of an edge.

Darth Thor
DE Luke

FreshestSlice
Vader. Luke is still weaker than Ben. excellent

And doesn't that scan you just posted say the walker was already crippled?

Beniboybling
It's guns were crippled (he redirected a shot into it's head in the prievous panel) but I don't see how that would make it easier to fell, aside from the fact it couldn't shoot him.

FreshestSlice
He crushed its damaged head. Vader lifted the AT-AT in the air. Not sure how one exactly trumps the other. Besides reasons, obviously.

Darth Thor
^ It certainly doesn't trump what Vader did, but given Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ, then give him feats like the above a few years on, I'm pretty sure he could take an all out Vader at this point.

Beniboybling
He didn't crush its head, he pulled the whole thing to the ground causing it to be destroyed.

Difference being Luke dispatched an AT-AT with ease, whereas Vader was unable to destroy it before it fired on him, firepower he was unable to defend against.

FreshestSlice
You mean the fire power you just said this AT-AT didn't have? Sounds really hypocritical.

Beniboybling
No I mean the firepower it did have prior to Luke shrugging it off and crippling it. thumb up

FreshestSlice
I could go into why that argument makes zero sense, but I've had enough of your double standards for one day, Beni. uhuh

Beniboybling
No double standards here. My point is that Luke can dispatch AT-ATs with speed and ease, Vader in a time-pressured situation (being imminent turbolaser fire) did not, ergo he cannot.

The fact he can't shield himself against AT-AT fire full stop is a separate point, but proves the same thing. DE Luke > Vader.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No double standards here. My point is that Luke can dispatch AT-ATs with speed and ease, Vader in a time-pressured situation (being imminent turbolaser fire) did not, ergo he cannot.




Difference is though Luke wasn't trying to crush it as it began shooting at him.

Luke deflected the Fire Power back at it's source First and Then finished it off with a Force attack. I'd say that's the easier and more efficient way of defeating an AT-AT tbh.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No double standards here. My point is that Luke can dispatch AT-ATs with speed and ease, Vader in a time-pressured situation (being imminent turbolaser fire) did not, ergo he cannot.

The fact he can't shield himself against AT-AT fire full stop is a separate point, but proves the same thing. DE Luke > Vader.
DP already addressed the first part of the this. The second point is just idiotic given Vader has tanked much worse with no ill effects in the slightest. It's plain stupid to using this feat to argue DE Luke being greater than Vader.

Angelalex242
DE Luke would defeat any version of his father save Mortis. It's the tipping point where Luke surpasses his father.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Difference is though Luke wasn't trying to crush it as it began shooting at him.

Luke deflected the Fire Power back at it's source First and Then finished it off with a Force attack. I'd say that's the easier and more efficient way of defeating an AT-AT tbh. 1. He didn't crush it, he pulled it down, neutralising its guns wouldn't have made it any more vulnerable 2. Vader had ample time to down it as Luke did before it started shooting, which would have killed Leia, Han etc. and prevented it from firing at all.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
given Vader has tanked much worse with no ill effects in the slightest. It's plain stupid to using this feat to argue DE Luke being greater than Vader. What projectiles has Vader tanked that surpass a AT-AT barrage?

Syndicate
DE Luke and Darth Vader are on the same level in regards to TK for all intents and purposes. For specific force skills like force shields tanking a turbo laser is greater than anything I know of Vader doing.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What projectiles has Vader tanked that surpass a AT-AT barrage?
How does something being a projectile doesn't inherently make it stronger than say dozen or so explosions we've seen Vader tank?

carthage
Vader's tanked AT-AT fire before and deflected cannonfire from turrets in Lords of the Sith.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4404408



-Lords of the Sith

He's also used barrier to withstand the explosion of one of the largest munitions factories in the galaxy in the Star Wars comic

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644184-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-016.jpg

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How does something being a projectile doesn't inherently make it stronger than say dozen or so explosions we've seen Vader tank? Its the difference between being hit with a sledgehammer and stabbed with sword, wider surface area to absorb the impact.

@Carth can't see the image for the AT-AT, where is that from, LotS?

Syndicate
Originally posted by carthage
Vader's tanked AT-AT fire before and deflected cannonfire from turrets in Lords of the Sith.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4404408



-Lords of the Sith

He's also used barrier to withstand the explosion of one of the largest munitions factories in the galaxy in the Star Wars comic

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644184-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-016.jpg

Fair enough. Did DE Luke ever employ lightning?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its the difference between being hit with a sledgehammer and stabbed with sword, wider surface area to absorb the impact.

Not really. If blaster bolts were tapered, you'd have a point, but they aren't, so you don't. There's no sharp point that focuses all the energy of blaster bolt, no matter how large it is.

Beniboybling
But a laser bolt is tapered to an extent, its a narrow beam of plasma which means the energy is being focused into a small area.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not really. If blaster bolts were tapered, you'd have a point, but they aren't, so you don't. There's no sharp point that focuses all the energy of blaster bolt, no matter how large it is.

I think he meant the ATAT shots hit Luke directly and his shield absorbed/dissipated all of the energy while Vader surviving these explosions simply puts a shield around himself strong enough to block the explosion in the area he occupies but not the area around it.

It's the difference between somebody throwing a bucket of water at you and you evaporating any water that touches you and somebody throwing a bucket of water at you and you you evaporating all of it. Although to be fair we'd have to calculate the energy of an ATAT shot and the energy of an explosion in the area Vader occupies to accurately compare it. I'm willing to say they're around even though.

DarthAnt66
Beni's reaching so hard he turned into Mr. Fantastic.

FreshestSlice
It's not tapered at all. And unless it has the same energy as said explosions=you really still don't have a point.

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni's reaching so hard he turned into Mr. Fantastic.

What do you think of my above reasoning Ant? Should we just say DE Luke and Vader are equals in force shielding? Given their other showings and how even they are it seems like a sensible compromise.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
I think he meant the ATAT shots hit Luke directly and his shield absorbed/dissipated all of the energy while Vader surviving these explosions simply puts a shield around himself strong enough to block the explosion in the area he occupies but not the area around it.

It's the difference between somebody throwing a bucket of water at you and you evaporating any water that touches you and somebody throwing a bucket of water at you and you you evaporating all of it. Although to be fair we'd have to calculate the energy of an ATAT shot and the energy of an explosion in the area Vader occupies to accurately compare it. I'm willing to say they're around even though.
See the above. Pretending that a blaster bolt from an AT-AT is comparable to explosions that blow up large sections of the Death Star is kekworthy.

Tondemonai
Luke wins this. I don't understand what's so dufficult to understand that Luke just has better feats and is stronger. While Vader has survived intense explosions, which granted is better than Luke shielding himself from turbo laser fire, Luke's showings with being able to manipulate the Force to a more advanced digree was shown in his fight with Sidious in DE.

Originally posted by carthage
Vader's tanked AT-AT fire before and deflected cannonfire from turrets in Lords of the Sith.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4404408



-Lords of the Sith

He's also used barrier to withstand the explosion of one of the largest munitions factories in the galaxy in the Star Wars comic

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644184-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-016.jpg

I don't know if you realize what Luke did against that walker, but first he used Force Barrier to defend himself from the turbolaser fire, followed by using tutaminis to deflect the turbolaser fire back at the AT-AT, destroying the afore mentioned turbolaser cannons. He followed this up by destroying it in the panel shown in Beni's first post.

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
See the above. Pretending that a blaster bolt from an AT-AT is comparable to explosions that blow up large sections of the Death Star is kekworthy.

To be fair ATAT shots are pretty powerful and Vader isn't blocking the full energy of said explosion. But whatever you want to think mate. Until you or anyone else in this thread can come up with actual calcs it's just conjecture.

Zenwolf
Wasn't Vader busy crushing the AT-AT when Han fired the cannons? So it's not like Vader would have been able to raise up a barrier, whereas with Luke he did that the first time, plus as of Vader down we do see him blocking a tank cannon shot with his lightsaber and redirect it.

Although i'll say the tank and AT-AT isn't comparable firepower wise, but still.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Syndicate
To be fair ATAT shots are pretty powerful
We see the extent of the damage that the blaster bolt did, and the splash it created.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3037750-0991103956-17193.jpg

is nowhere near comparable to:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

Of course, I could get some top notch scientist on calculating Vader's surface area, the strength of the explosion, just how long Vader had to absorb energy, the strength of Starkillers lightning which disintegrates stormtroopers, the armor plating of an AT-AT, and so on. Or you could judge for yourself.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's not tapered at all.Uh-huh, it's far more focused that an exposion. Not really, if Vader was using tutanimis i.e. absorbing the energy, then yes, but he's not, he's erecting a barrier. Naturally that barrier will be more easily shattered if a small area is forced to absorb the entirety of the attack.

That said? A bolt from a blaster could rip holes through flesh, burn through stone and damage durasteel, I'd imagine therefore the turbolaser cannons on an AT-AT could vaporise most materials. While I find it unlikely that, unless Vader was at the heart of the explosion, he'd be subject to thermal detonator+ levels of heat. And that's without considering their kinetic energy, and that its still spread over a larger area.Originally posted by Syndicate
Until you or anyone else in this thread can come up with actual calcs it's just conjecture. True, it's also detracting from the main point, that Luke can down AT-ATs with ease.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
the strength of Starkillers lightning which disintegrates stormtrooperStarkiller's lightning only disintergrates stormtroopers in-game and Vader has never used a Force barrier to defend against it, as I recall.

In fact I don't believe Vader has ever successively defended against Starkiller's lighting full stop. mmm

Syndicate
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
We see the extent of the damage that the blaster bolt did, and the splash it created.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/3037750-0991103956-17193.jpg

is nowhere near comparable to:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4644183-star+wars+%282015-%29+003-015.jpg

Of course, I could get some top notch scientist on calculating Vader's surface area, the strength of the explosion, just how long Vader had to absorb energy, the strength of Starkillers lightning which disintegrates stormtroopers, the armor plating of an AT-AT, and so on. Or you could judge for yourself.

Get your scientists on it please.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He also shields himself from its turbolasers with ease whereas Vader gets blown up:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11117/111178634/4788399-luke+force+barrier.jpg

Though granted Vader was pre-ESB/ROTJ.

While I do think Luke wins this, I personally believe that the narration praising Lukes lightsaber skills in that panel, in bold in fact, points to the interpretation that he deflected them with his saber and the outline is an artistic flourish thats very common in DE.

Syndicate
Originally posted by Nephthys
While I do think Luke wins this, I personally believe that the narration praising Lukes lightsaber skills in that panel, in bold in fact, points to the interpretation that he deflected them with his saber and the outline is an artistic flourish thats very common in DE.

That's a good point considering he redirects the energy from his blade in the next panel.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
While I do think Luke wins this, I personally believe that the narration praising Lukes lightsaber skills in that panel, in bold in fact, points to the interpretation that he deflected them with his saber and the outline is an artistic flourish thats very common in DE. mmm Could be, hadn't considered that.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
While I do think Luke wins this, I personally believe that the narration praising Lukes lightsaber skills in that panel, in bold in fact, points to the interpretation that he deflected them with his saber and the outline is an artistic flourish thats very common in DE. Honestly, its what I first assumed as well but given how everyone was so sure it was a force defense, I thought maybe these guys know something I don't. rolling on floor laughing

NewGuy01
Palpatine says Luke "could be" far greater than Vader, implying he may not be much better than Vader if at all at the time.

That being said, given his showings, I'm inclined to say he's better. Then again, it's only a year after Thrawn...

Sinious
Pick a side ffs

Deronn_solo
LAL.
Darth Vader.

Beniboybling
You've been saying that a lot recently. mmm

Deronn_solo
'cause everything's funny.

Beniboybling
I meant Darth Vader, but that too.

Nargaroth
Given that Luke was stomped, a few years before DE, by an inferior Force user than Vader, and considering that his best feat by that time was surpassed by a far from prime Vader who was also gravely wounded and having his suit badly damaged (suggesting he would be strained in keeping himself alive, given that he wouldn't be supported by it), I would doubt he is superior to Vader, or even on his level. As for the AT-AT feat, Vader wasn't defending himself from that fire before tearing the walker apart, unlike Luke, and he both crushed and lifted it, which is better than simply pushing it down. And honestly, disintegrating Lyleks is also better than anything Luke has done by that time. DE Luke has nothing to suggest he could replicate that.

carthage
Sabers probably goes either way, seeing as Vader is still a better duelist than Lumiya, Luuke Skywalker, and other random Marvel villains Luke fought in the comics. I don't think Luke saw a huge skill increase until the latter new Republic stuff

I'm surprised to see the development of Vader even beating EU Luke, can't say I disagree either with the majority verdict.

The Merchant
Wasn't it said by Cronal in Shadows of Mindor that Luke had more Force power than Vader and possibly more than Palpatine, implying that Luke already surpassed Vader a while ago.

Sinious
Originally posted by carthage
Sabers probably goes either way, seeing as Vader is still a better duelist than Lumiya, Luuke Skywalker, and other random Marvel villains Luke fought in the comics. I don't think Luke saw a huge skill increase until the latter new Republic stuff

I'm surprised to see the development of Vader even beating EU Luke, can't say I disagree either with the majority verdict. Disappointing tbh.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by The Merchant
Wasn't it said by Cronal in Shadows of Mindor that Luke had more Force power than Vader and possibly more than Palpatine, implying that Luke already surpassed Vader a while ago.

The same was said about him by Vader just after ESB, what's your point?

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