Gorgon vs. Lady Shiva, Black Canary & Cassandra Cain

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byrdgang21
Fight in Gotham City


Who wins?

Smurph
Gorgon.

DarkSaint85
Gorgon wins this.

cdtm
Kind of a mismatch, tbh. Gorgon's someone who could probably walk all over Spidey (And Spidey, in turn, should take the entire Bat Family, Cass and Shiva included, in h2h..)

StiltmanFTW
Canary Cry?

Not saying it would take out Gorgon for sure, but... it's weird it's not even mentioned in this thread. Has she been depowered or something?

Zack M
If the cry can take down the likes of Superman, then it could take Gorgon.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Zack M
If the cry can take down the likes of Superman, then it could take Gorgon.

Superman has enhanced senses, though.

When did it take Supes down?

StiltmanFTW
That's what I'd like to know.

It's always mentioned for some reason, even though it sounds like a total PIS. But hey, I won't mind seeing Superman wrecked by Canary at all.

cdtm
I've seen worse.

Superman got clobbered by a Daxamite, who in turn got dropped by Shrinking Violet.

Because enhanced hearing = scratching and clawing at his inner ear being effective. ('Cause we all know a sonic boom keeps Supes from flying too fast, I guess. smile )

Sin I AM
Originally posted by cdtm
Kind of a mismatch, tbh. Gorgon's someone who could probably walk all over Spidey (And Spidey, in turn, should take the entire Bat Family, Cass and Shiva included, in h2h..)

Individually? Yes together hell no

carver9
Originally posted by cdtm
Kind of a mismatch, tbh. Gorgon's someone who could probably walk all over Spidey (And Spidey, in turn, should take the entire Bat Family, Cass and Shiva included, in h2h..)

thumb up

Zack M
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Individually? Yes together hell no

thumb up

Canary cry would mess Spidey up bad.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Zack M
thumb up

Canary cry would mess Spidey up bad.

That and gas pellets since like every member of the fam carries them...sonics..knuckle dusters. Parker isnt soloing the fam

cdtm
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Individually? Yes together hell no

He's done it against Fantastic Four and Xmen, multiple times.

cdtm
Originally posted by Zack M
thumb up

Canary cry would mess Spidey up bad.

Sure, if it hits.

Think about his rogues gallery. Electro, for example.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by cdtm
He's done it against Fantastic Four and Xmen, multiple times.

Cis in both and i know the scenes you're referencing.

leonidas
how is he dealing with the cry again....? not sure how he's winning this tbh.

http://i.imgur.com/ATUXvZK.jpg

that's mammoth and hawk. mammoth is at least in ben's class, and hawk is a beast... here she takes out giganta:

http://i.imgur.com/fL0vNFV.jpg

and even frickin amazo:

http://i.imgur.com/7S6lQD6.jpg

he's good, but cass and shiva are NOT chumps--nor is canary of course, even without the cry. gorgon also has some less, than awesome showings, as most know. team should kill him dead almost every time.

Sin I AM
Is his stone stare available?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Is his stone stare available?

Why it shouldn't be? stick out tongue

Zack M
He would need it, yes.

Smurph
I think Gorgon is much, much faster than Giganta, Hawk, or Mammoth, and I think he's tactical enough to take out Canary first, either with his gigantic sword or with stone stare.

leonidas
hmm, bc is nothing close to a novice though and i'm pretty sure hawk has super speed. dinah's been part of both the jla and the jsa and held her own against the league-level threats. gorgon is def faster, but tactically speaking? i wouldn't say he's above these girls much, if at all. given starting distance and basic knowledge, her cry hits before he reaches them. once they scatter it becomes much more difficult for him. he'd beat them 1 on 1, but i'd give the 3 of them the win much more often than not against him. take her cry away and he wins this. i'd had more respect for him when he first came on the scene.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why it shouldn't be? stick out tongue

It's normally stripped from him in these threads..kinda one shot kill thing etc

Zack M
Dove (In Hawk and Dove series) was able to hang with Speed Queen. And Hawk was able to hang with Dove. Both have enhanced speed, strength, and healing factors.

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
how is he dealing with the cry again....? not sure how he's winning this tbh.

http://i.imgur.com/ATUXvZK.jpg

that's mammoth and hawk. mammoth is at least in ben's class, and hawk is a beast... here she takes out giganta:

http://i.imgur.com/fL0vNFV.jpg

and even frickin amazo:

http://i.imgur.com/7S6lQD6.jpg

he's good, but cass and shiva are NOT chumps--nor is canary of course, even without the cry. gorgon also has some less, than awesome showings, as most know. team should kill him dead almost every time.

No one's calling them chumps. Losing to Spidey level doesn't make you a chump, it makes you a street leveler in all around physical averages.. Which Canary and Shiva are, if on the very upper limit of street.


So which lesser showings?

Struggling with Phobos? Maybe.. I don't really know enough about the character to judge. But some of Gorgon's better feats come from the story line, like "disarming" YoYo mid sprint, and tanking a giant foot through a rock surface..

He h trouble with Lord Rand. Personally, I'd consider the fact it was a competition a super high end showing for Gorgon. stick out tongue

And Shang Chi also held his own.. barely. Before getting ultimately crushed.

Maybe Gorgon has worse showings out there by now, but he's no one hit wonder. His feats are more extensive and consistant then Black Tarantula or Master Izo, both who have the feats to handle just about any street..

Khazra Reborn
Gorgon has one bad showing, it was during Bendis' nonsensical short lived, Dark Avengers revival, which Hickman didn't even acknowledge when he started writing Gorgon again.

Honestly, barring the canary cry, no one here can even hurt Gorgon.

StiltmanFTW
Phobos was uber. He was owning the White House security with no effort... while holding back. He gave his father a hard time, too.

Sin I AM
Phobos needed to be fleshed out better

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Phobos was uber. He was owning the White House security with no effort... while holding back. He gave his father a hard time, too.

I think Phobos beat Ares, IIRC, the reason Grasscutter was red was because Phobos ran it through his dad's chest.

StiltmanFTW
@Sin

Gorgon killed him before writers got the chance, lol.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I think Phobos beat Ares, IIRC, the reason Grasscutter was red was because Phobos ran it through his dad's chest.

You might be right, been too long since I've read that fight.

He was blatantly superhuman and very skilled; Shishido still managed to beat him even after his Godkiller got broken.

byrdgang21
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Is his stone stare available?

Yes

Sin I AM
Didn't he beat the chaos king before he was the chaos king

leonidas
his dark avengers showings were not great, for sure, compared to his early showings of effortlessly taking out logan and elektra like they were 2nd graders. the fist showing was certainly not impressive given those early showings, nor was the shang showing. all those showings--looking at the speed and sill used in those fights--don't place him that far outside this trio. bats could certainly hang with fist or shang in h2h which means shiva, cass and even bc can come pretty damn close as well. i agree that he wins though due to speed if the cry is left out. it wouldn't be impossible i suspect though, to find some showings from these 3 that would throw some possible doubt on that belief however.

Blue Area Vet
Gorgon and D.C. has managed to mind **** a healthy portion of you all with the so called Bat family.

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by leonidas
his dark avengers showings were not great, for sure, compared to his early showings of effortlessly taking out logan and elektra like they were 2nd graders. the fist showing was certainly not impressive given those early showings, nor was the shang showing. all those showings--looking at the speed and sill used in those fights--don't place him that far outside this trio. bats could certainly hang with fist or shang in h2h which means shiva, cass and even bc can come pretty damn close as well. i agree that he wins though due to speed if the cry is left out. it wouldn't be impossible i suspect though, to find some showings from these 3 that would throw some possible doubt on that belief however.

Shang Chi had 2 or 3 amps when he fought Gorgon, and he still got crushed.

StiltmanFTW
Yeah, it wasn't 'standard' Shang. Didn't he crush a Builder robot with ease with the same upgrades?

Iron Fist was about to get offed, if not for Daredevil. Gorgon also was kinda forced then to emulate Wolverine's fighting style, claws and all. Anyway, it's Bendis' specialty to make the villains job even harder than usual. All of the so-called "New Dark Avengers" were fodder. Sans maybe Superia. Skaar doesn't count since he was undercover, working for Avengers... hell, he still jobbed to Fist.

Anyway, CC - at its peak power - is team's only chance. A cheap win, but a win.

DC fans also forget that pre-reboot feats got flushed down the toilet. There is a Nu Canary stick out tongue Does she have any good CC feats?

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, it wasn't 'standard' Shang. Didn't he crush a Builder robot with ease with the same upgrades?

Iron Fist was about to get offed, if not for Daredevil. Gorgon also was kinda forced then to emulate Wolverine's fighting style, claws and all. Anyway, it's Bendis' specialty to make the villains job even harder than usual. All of the so-called "New Dark Avengers" were fodder. Sans maybe Superia. Skaar doesn't count since he was undercover, working for Avengers... hell, he still jobbed to Fist.

Anyway, CC - at its peak power - is team's only chance. A cheap win, but a win.

DC fans also forget that pre-reboot feats got flushed down the toilet. There is a Nu Canary stick out tongue Does she have any good CC feats?

Most DEFINITELY.

She's a little more versatile now. For instance, she can fly just like Banshee.

She also made Mr. Majestic bleed. The SAME Majestic who easily tanked a NUKE.

And I believe she destroyed a small island, but I'll have to double check that.

In terms of durability, Majestic>>Gorgon. If Majestic had a hard time tanking her scream, Gorgon certainly will. thumb up

Edit: Actually, Canary had her boyfriend's help, but it was still impressive, nonetheless.

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
his dark avengers showings were not great, for sure, compared to his early showings of effortlessly taking out logan and elektra like they were 2nd graders. the fist showing was certainly not impressive given those early showings, nor was the shang showing. all those showings--looking at the speed and sill used in those fights--don't place him that far outside this trio. bats could certainly hang with fist or shang in h2h which means shiva, cass and even bc can come pretty damn close as well. i agree that he wins though due to speed if the cry is left out. it wouldn't be impossible i suspect though, to find some showings from these 3 that would throw some possible doubt on that belief however.

Fist would beat Bats rather easily.

"No fanboy", his speed and striking feats put him closer to Spidey level then Batman's. And you don't think Batman could hold his own with Parker...


....do you?

Zack M
Originally posted by cdtm
Fist would beat Bats rather easily.

"No fanboy", his speed and striking feats put him closer to Spidey level then Batman's. And you don't think Batman could hold his own with Parker...


....do you?

Batgod, I can take blows from WW can. wink

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
Fist would beat Bats rather easily.

"No fanboy", his speed and striking feats put him closer to Spidey level then Batman's. And you don't think Batman could hold his own with Parker...


....do you?

in straight h2h not sure how anyone could say fist beats bats handily. as far as spidey--spidey's record against MA guys is...less than stellar. but yeah, spidey would beat bats for sure in a standard meeting. add gear and things get a bit cloudier imo. but that is certainly off-topic.

not calling anyone a fanboy. like i said, he'd beat them without the cry, but it's pretty clear that there is a difference between completely pwning logan/eleltra and his later showings against shang and fist, neither of whom would come close to beating that duo anywhere close to easily imo. in fact, i'd take logan/elektra for a majority over shang or fist--def shang, likely for a sweep....

abhilegend
Yeah, Canary solos. And Batman is at least as skilled as Danny in h2h without chi amping.

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, Canary solos. And Batman is at least as skilled as Danny in h2h without chi amping.

Danny DOES have chi amping, though. He always has chi amping.

Even without the Iron Fist and dragon chi, he can chi amp.

Give Batman the same skill, or make a "no chi amping" stipulation, and that's a different story, but it's also like asking Superman to fight in a vaccume without a star in space. Kind of arbitrary and something that almost never, ever happens in comics.

Zack M
Originally posted by cdtm
Danny DOES have chi amping, though. He always has chi amping.

Even without the Iron Fist and dragon chi, he can chi amp.

Give Batman the same skill, or make a "no chi amping" stipulation, and that's a different story, but it's also like asking Superman to fight in a vaccume without a star in space. Kind of arbitrary and something that almost never, ever happens in comics.

In hth skills, they're about even.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Even without the Iron Fist and dragon chi, he can chi amp.

Scans of him chi-amping pre-robbing the dragon out of its chi?

It's only logical to assume he can, but do you have any on-panel showings?

Mindset
Didn't he use chi while training to take on the dragon?

Pretty sure he beat the dragon using chi.

StiltmanFTW
Did he amp his stats with it, though?

Mindset
If he didn't, then he's strong enough to kick a dragon's ass without chi, so it really doesn't matter.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Scans of him chi-amping pre-robbing the dragon out of its chi?

It's only logical to assume he can, but do you have any on-panel showings?

Colleen Wing amped her strength with chi. With skills she learned after Danny "violated her" (her words) with a mind meld to undo some mystical brain washing.

There's also the time he took on 90's era Creed when his IF wasn't working, and still managed to use "welled up ki", as the story put it, into a super punch.

It was NOT an Iron Fist amp, according to the story, but worked much the same.

Mindset
Aoollo Creed?

Decter
Team takes this

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
There's also the time he took on 90's era Creed when his IF wasn't working, and still managed to use "welled up ki", as the story put it, into a super punch.

Ah, I think I remember that.

Henry_Pym
Gorgon was keeping up with Spidey, he should cleave Canary in half at the bell.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
Danny DOES have chi amping, though. He always has chi amping.

Even without the Iron Fist and dragon chi, he can chi amp.

Give Batman the same skill, or make a "no chi amping" stipulation, and that's a different story, but it's also like asking Superman to fight in a vaccume without a star in space. Kind of arbitrary and something that almost never, ever happens in comics.
Not really. It's not the same in anyway. Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Gorgon was keeping up with Spidey, he should cleave Canary in half at the bell.
From .5 KMs?

DarkSaint85
Why wouldn't the stone stare work?

If these three are as powerful as people are saying, and her canary cry is pretty well known....

Why would he wait till they came over the 0.5km to beat his ass?

abhilegend
Canary knows about the stone stare too then. She closes her eyes and knocks him out.

thumb up

DarkSaint85
Over 500m?

leonidas
for my part i figure it's a lot easier for them to get into range for the cry than it is for him to get into range for the stare. imo the starting distance works in the favor of the girls. were this cqc he'd kill all of them before she could even scream...

DarkSaint85
Is there a range for the stare? Prob should've asked that first lol.

carver9
Gorgon was at least a block away in a tree when he blitzed Wolverine here. Don't think the distance is a concern for him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/1865307-gorgon_sneakattack1.jpg

Sin I AM
Originally posted by carver9
Gorgon was at least a block away in a tree when he blitzed Wolverine here. Don't think the distance is a concern for him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78977/1865307-gorgon_sneakattack1.jpg

Where's the scan?

basilisk
I think that original version of Gorgon wouldn't have too much trouble with this. Wasn't he watered down a bit in later appearances, like a lot of characters I guess.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Where's the scan?

I don't see it either.

cdtm
Originally posted by basilisk
I think that original version of Gorgon wouldn't have too much trouble with this. Wasn't he watered down a bit in later appearances, like a lot of characters I guess.

He tanked everything Shang threw at him with Stark tech enhacements. And chi amping on top of it barely slowed him down.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
He tanked everything Shang threw at him with Stark tech enhacements. And chi amping on top of it barely slowed him down.

And he didn't even use his stone stare.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by basilisk
I think that original version of Gorgon wouldn't have too much trouble with this. Wasn't he watered down a bit in later appearances, like a lot of characters I guess.

He was watered down only under Bendis in a few issues.

He still had IF dead to rights.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He was watered down only under Bendis in a few issues.

He still had IF dead to rights.

Or maybe IF was setting him up for Matt. stick out tongue

"Watch your back". "Pathetic trick *BAM!"

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Or maybe IF was setting him up for Matt. stick out tongue

"Watch your back". "Pathetic trick *BAM!"

IF is too proud to allow someone like Matt to do the job for him.

In fact, he was mocking his skills in Shadowland.

Of course, if it were Luke Cage, he'd be kissing his butt afterwards... dat bromance.

Khazra Reborn
Why is so much emphasis being put on Gorgon's one and only bad showing?

Literally every other appearance he's had had been consistently high.

cdtm
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Why is so much emphasis being put on Gorgon's one and only bad showing?

Literally every other appearance he's had had been consistently high.

Didn't that showing happen concurrently with the Immortal Iron Fist series? .Or shortly after?

Rand was getting a big push at the time, so not really a bad showing.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't that showing happen concurrently with the Immortal Iron Fist series? .Or shortly after?

Rand was getting a big push at the time, so not really a bad showing.

It happened just after Wolverine raped IF in a sparring stick out tongue

A push, yes, but not in all areas - Gorgon apparently was more skilled than Wolverine. In the other thread you do mention that Elektra is not outskilled by Rand stick out tongue

Anyway, the fight made both sides look good, tbh - the only truly wtf moment was Daredevil out of f*cking nowhere, but I guess it was impossible for Bendis to resist including that.

cdtm
I meant skill isn't the reason she's the odd one out. stick out tongue

But hey, Elektra's awesome, and pretty underrated.

StiltmanFTW
Elektra is very uber. Versatile, too. Her max damage output is crazy, her sai stabbed through She-Rulk:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104794/2229331-letter.jpeg

I'm still not sure what her limited tp can actually do, but it could theoretically be a factor vs. IF.

cdtm
Paralyzed "Enemy of the State" Logan as well, by piercing a nerve cluster with her sai and leaving them there.

And Logan was like "Jesus, she's fast!" Logan fans like to say he wasn't himself, or tired from previous fighting, but that wouldn't account for him giving Elektra props.

StiltmanFTW
With broken sais, even, iirc.

Sure, Logan was mind-controlled, missing a portion of his soul and just recovered from being hamburger'd by napalm or something (don't remember the details, it happened off-panel, that way Hydra delivered their Logan-trap to SHIELD)... but Elektra has a history of good showings against Logan and being respected by him.

There's a reason why he impregnated her in MC2 wink

leonidas
thumb up maybe i'll round up some of my elektra stuff.

StiltmanFTW
Srank was using photobucket, so his links in the respect thread are still working, btw:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=502532&pagenumber=1

leonidas
lol i just noticed that. it's actually a really good respect thread too. very thorough. she has some really good tp feats in there that could def mess with danny's head. if either of them were in this thread. no expression

StiltmanFTW
True, it's a very good thread.

Do you have any idea what happened to srank? Why has he left?

leonidas
nope, no clue. too bad, i liked him. didn't always agree with him, but he knew his sh!t most of the time.

StiltmanFTW
Agreed, liked him too. Most Wolverine fans disappeared, sigh.

cdtm
Yeah, sadly. The way they all vanished around the same time, makes one wonder if they were all the same guy using sock accounts.

Last I saw Jinzen was about a year back. He steered me towards the issue of that Danny/90's Creed fight. Plus, another issue in the late 90's where Constrictor beat Rand (That's like losing to Stilt Man! ><. No offense smile )

I still haven't found the issue when he wrecked the wrecking crew, though. Not the Claremont fight, but a later one where they got jobbed out..

StiltmanFTW
Lol, they weren't.

Jinzin is still lurking. Doesn't post, though sad

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
nope, no clue. too bad, i liked him. didn't always agree with him, but he knew his sh!t most of the time.
Until it's Deathstroke or Midnighter.

Then even paste pot Pete could beat them in h2h according to srank.

leonidas
oh, they def had more respect for the marvel ma's, which is why i said i didn't always agree....

Zack M
Didn't Philo defeat Srank in a Battlezone? A Bat character vs a Marvel one?

StiltmanFTW
He did.

Cassandra vs. Bullseye?

Zack M
Yeah, I think it was Cassandra, but I don't think it was Bullseye.

StiltmanFTW
And I think it was ahah

StiltmanFTW
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497150&highlight=batgirl+userid%3A110322

See? Now... kneel before Stiltzod again biscuits

Zack M
Just saw the link too. laughing out loud

Zack M
It was a no brainer that Cassandra would kick Bullseye's butt.

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