# Does STTGL's Probability Alteration require claims of "No-Limit Fallacy"?

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**Jmanghan**

As the title says.

Is it fair?

I mean, he can pretty much change the probability of ANYTHING.

He can change the probability of his attack destroying the universe, multiple dimensions, just by thinking of it.

Do you think there should be limits to this power?

Unless it's outright stated, or shown, not many other people in anime or otherwise can really beat him, as he can just be like "Lol, thought you could hit me -changes probability of your attack hurting me-".

I don't think it really has limits on the attacks either, like if someone more powerful then him tried to wipe him from existence, he can still change that probability so that the probability of him being wiped from existence is 0.

It doesn't seem fair.

**Q99**

A 'no limits fallacy' is when something is assumed to have no limits simply because they're not shown.

Something actively shown to not have limits is not a fallacy.

And no, STTGL does not have *no* limits. We've seen prior occasions when the Spiral Energy of the characters has needed an outside boost to make it to the next level (like when they drew upon the spiral energy of all the previous failed spiral rebellions). So, something *sufficiently* larger in scale could beat it before it could scale-up enough- which isn't to say that it couldn't eventually reach any particular scale, but it does need to actually progress through the levels. And it's not like it's the only thing that can alter probability, and some things do have attacks unlikely to be affected by probability alteration.

So what we have here is not a case of no-limits fallacy, but simply something with massively extremely high limits.

**SSJGGogeta**

STTGL lost to the anti-spiral. If that's not a "limit", then you're using the word wrong.

Or you're just severely wanking STTGL.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

STTGL lost to the anti-spiral. If that's not a "limit", then you're using the word wrong.

Or you're just severely wanking STTGL.

Thats because the Anti-Spiral had the ability of Probability Alteration as well.

It's a VERY OP thing to have in your arsenal.

Thats a step above altering reality or time/space.

He's directly changing the probability that you can hurt him, and anyone who doesn't have something to counter that (and there aren't many powers that CAN), is going to be useless against him.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by Q99

A 'no limits fallacy' is when something is assumed to have no limits simply because they're not shown.

Something actively shown to not have limits is not a fallacy.

And no, STTGL does not have *no* limits. We've seen prior occasions when the Spiral Energy of the characters has needed an outside boost to make it to the next level (like when they drew upon the spiral energy of all the previous failed spiral rebellions). So, something *sufficiently* larger in scale could beat it before it could scale-up enough- which isn't to say that it couldn't eventually reach any particular scale, but it does need to actually progress through the levels. And it's not like it's the only thing that can alter probability, and some things do have attacks unlikely to be affected by probability alteration.

So what we have here is not a case of no-limits fallacy, but simply something with massively extremely high limits. It doesn't have limits to which attacks can hurt him.

Hell, if "The Creator" from Umineko tried to hurt him, probability alteration is still an option.

There aren't many characters in ALL of fiction that have this power.

Now, I'm not saying that he'd beat The Creator, from Umineko. But if they tried to directly attack STTGL, it just straight up wouldn't work, period.

**Q99**

Originally posted by Jmanghan

Thats because the Anti-Spiral had the ability of Probability Alteration as well.

It's a VERY OP thing to have in your arsenal.

Thats a step above altering reality or time/space.

He's directly changing the probability that you can hurt him, and anyone who doesn't have something to counter that (and there aren't many powers that CAN), is going to be useless against him.

Sure, but that's not no limits, that's 'it's very OP and hard to counter.'

And I wouldn't say it's a 'step above,' in a lot of ways it's more limited. Heck, I'd even classify it as a specific form of reality alteration. The probability of stuff happening is part of the universe.

Sending, say, a wave of unreality probably wouldn't be stopped, because probability is part of reality.

Originally posted by Jmanghan

It doesn't have limits to which attacks can hurt him.

You've mentioned one limit yourself, other probability manipulation.

There's some reality alteration that won't care about probability alteration or will prevent it's use.

Etc..

High limit, but still not a fallacy.

**SquallX**

Spiral reminds me of a lesser version of the Wave Existence.

I wondered if Spiral did take inspiration from the Wave though?

**Q99**

Originally posted by SquallX

Spiral reminds me of a lesser version of the Wave Existence.

I wondered if Spiral did take inspiration from the Wave though?

Possibly a little, Xenogears was a popular game.

Pretty different roles, to be sure.

**SSJGGogeta**

Originally posted by Jmanghan

Thats because the Anti-Spiral had the ability of Probability Alteration as well.

It's a VERY OP thing to have in your arsenal.

Thats a step above altering reality or time/space.

He's directly changing the probability that you can hurt him, and anyone who doesn't have something to counter that (and there aren't many powers that CAN), is going to be useless against him.

You're fried.

Probability alteration is not even comparable to realty warping. If anything, as Q99 said, it is a specific form of reality manipulation. And also, you are COMPLETELY misunderstanding the ability. He can't magically make himself invulnerable to any attack. He can simply increase the chance of something going wrong with an attack. Say someone went to shoot a blast at him, he could alter probability so that the attack would explode in their face, or something like that. He doesn't have reality manipulation. He uses spiral energy, and fights on a galactic scale. That is the ONLY reason that STTGL seems unbeatable compared to so many other series. I could probably count the anime series with galaxy+ busters on both hands.

However, someone with feats greater than STTGL would thereby DEFEAT STTGL. As did the Anti-spiral.

And btw, you realize that for something to be truly infinite, there can exist only one of it, right? As that would mean one infinity to be larger than it, which in itself is a logical paradox. Or did you skip that day in high school?

**Q99**

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

And btw, you realize that for something to be truly infinite, there can exist only one of it, right? As that would mean one infinity to be larger than it, which in itself is a logical paradox. Or did you skip that day in high school?

Ah, that is not true.

Consider all positive numbers and all negative numbers. Positive numbers continue upwards into infinite. Negative numbers continue downward into infinite. They co-exist, as do other infinities.

If something is infinite, you can cut it in half- or into a billion different parts- and have all of them be infinite.

There is also mathematical terms for scales of infinity. It gets weird.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding of infinity because people conflate it with discussions of omnipotence- which is, one, generally theological rather than math, and two, usually defined in terms like 'can't be trumped' and in general a variety of rules people put in to apply to them, which IMO makes most usages of the word of questionable value, because thing A in a universe can be called omnipotent, while thing B from another universe can be much greater in terms of actual feats and demonstrated capabilities but have something that trumps it or a known limit and thus people won't call it omnipotent, even though by all measures it's greater than thing A, and all that.

Anyway, back to infinite, yea, lots of things can be infinite at the same time, and there's plenty of different forms infinite beings can take. Something can be infinite but quite straightforward, or have rather complex abilities, and yadda yadda.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

You're fried.

Probability alteration is not even comparable to realty warping. If anything, as Q99 said, it is a specific form of reality manipulation. And also, you are COMPLETELY misunderstanding the ability. He can't magically make himself invulnerable to any attack. He can simply increase the chance of something going wrong with an attack. Say someone went to shoot a blast at him, he could alter probability so that the attack would explode in their face, or something like that. He doesn't have reality manipulation. He uses spiral energy, and fights on a galactic scale. That is the ONLY reason that STTGL seems unbeatable compared to so many other series. I could probably count the anime series with galaxy+ busters on both hands.

However, someone with feats greater than STTGL would thereby DEFEAT STTGL. As did the Anti-spiral.

And btw, you realize that for something to be truly infinite, there can exist only one of it, right? As that would mean one infinity to be larger than it, which in itself is a logical paradox. Or did you skip that day in high school? Actually, no, thats wrong. In the series, Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren tries to hurt the anti-spiral, which doesn't work. It isn't "changing where it would hit", its changing "how badly it will impact". It also isn't just altering it, its DIRECTLY changing it.

Watch the anti-spiral say "that won't work!" because he knows it wouldn't have

any effect on him (had Simon and his team not picked up the ability themselves).

For example, Beerus uses his strongest attack on them, might destroy the universe, but STTGL would just brush his shoulder off and walk away, turn around for a second and be like "Lol, thought you could hurt me. Come back when you can alter probability." Its one of the only things that can nullify Galactus' ultimate nullifier.

**U need Leonard**

Just for the record, some infinities can be larger than others.

Also, there are some things that occur that probability can't alter, especially dealing in events that have uncountable infinite variables. There also events in which a *nearly* impossible degree of alterations would be needed to change an outcome in the slightest.

It is impossible to alter the probability of an event that isn't possible in the first place; since you don't know the odds of the fictitious event. There is no way to alter the probability of a dog barking so powerfully it atomizes the Earth . Such a ridiculous event is beyond probability in the 1st place. Since we are speaking on this in a fictional realm, there is no way to know the likelyhood of Saitama's strongest punch being unable to shatter a tree.

Now, if a combatant had the ability to out-right undo events, or make chosen events 100% impossible, that's another power altogether.

**U need Leonard**

It should also be noted,

In cases of probability, the likely event not occurring isn't magic, the likely event turns out not to be the actual outcome for a reason.

If I were bouncing a ball on a hardwood floor, the odds of the ball phasing through the floor are on the level of a trillion to 1. But there is still a reason why the ball *might* phase through the floor, thus the probability exist. If I had a 6 sided die, and all sides had a value of 6, what is the probability of me rolling a 2? Zero, there is no probability. This question is similar to trying to apply probability to an impossible event.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

Just for the record, some infinities can be larger than others.

Also, there are some things that occur that probability can't alter, especially dealing in events that have uncountable infinite variables. There also events in which a *nearly* impossible degree of alterations would be needed to change an outcome in the slightest.

It is impossible to alter the probability of an event that isn't possible in the first place; since you don't know the odds of the fictitious event. There is no way to alter the probability of a dog barking so powerfully it atomizes the Earth . Such a ridiculous event is beyond probability in the 1st place. Since we are speaking on this in a fictional realm, there is no way to know the likelyhood of Saitama's strongest punch being unable to shatter a tree.

Now, if a combatant had the ability to out-right undo events, or make chosen events 100% impossible, that's another power altogether.

It was powerful enough to survive the creation of the universe, and that was TTGL. A few years ago, STTGL was bigger then our universe, and is currently bigger then our observable universe irl.

**Q99**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

Just for the record, some infinities can be larger than others.

And some infinities can be limited or pointless

Like, if I have the ability to make infinite hammers, and you had, say, the finite abilities to phase through solid matter and project black holes, I'm probably the one screwed in a fight.

When you're talking infinity, it's quite possible to have things with a probability of '1'.

**SSJGGogeta**

Originally posted by Jmanghan

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

You're fried.

Probability alteration is not even comparable to realty warping. If anything, as Q99 said, it is a specific form of reality manipulation. And also, you are COMPLETELY misunderstanding the ability. He can't magically make himself invulnerable to any attack. He can simply increase the chance of something going wrong with an attack. Say someone went to shoot a blast at him, he could alter probability so that the attack would explode in their face, or something like that. He doesn't have reality manipulation. He uses spiral energy, and fights on a galactic scale. That is the ONLY reason that STTGL seems unbeatable compared to so many other series. I could probably count the anime series with galaxy+ busters on both hands.

However, someone with feats greater than STTGL would thereby DEFEAT STTGL. As did the Anti-spiral.

And btw, you realize that for something to be truly infinite, there can exist only one of it, right? As that would mean one infinity to be larger than it, which in itself is a logical paradox. Or did you skip that day in high school? Actually, no, thats wrong. In the series, Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren tries to hurt the anti-spiral, which doesn't work. It isn't "changing where it would hit", its changing "how badly it will impact". It also isn't just altering it, its DIRECTLY changing it.

Watch the anti-spiral say "that won't work!" because he knows it wouldn't have

any effect on him (had Simon and his team not picked up the ability themselves).

For example, Beerus uses his strongest attack on them, might destroy the universe, but STTGL would just brush his shoulder off and walk away, turn around for a second and be like "Lol, thought you could hurt me. Come back when you can alter probability." Its one of the only things that can nullify Galactus' ultimate nullifier.

You're an idiot.

1. The anti-spiral was simply stronger. That is all. A difference in power is all it takes to overcome probability alteration. Which is why the anti-spiral was defeated, in the end.

2. You clearly have no idea what the ultimate nullifier is, because with Galactus wielding it, STTGL would literally cease to exist from a sheer thought.

3. You're literally making every feat about probability alteration that you have up.

Come back when you have an argument, other than, "Probability alteration ftw".

**U need Leonard**

Originally posted by Q99

And some infinities can be limited or pointless

Like, if I have the ability to make infinite hammers, and you had, say, the finite abilities to phase through solid matter and project black holes, I'm probably the one screwed in a fight

When you're talking infinity, it's quite possible to have things with a probability of '1'.

That is true, too.

As meaningless as 1 would be in such a case, that is true. It all depends on the outcome someone is wants.

.Originally posted by Jmanghan

It was powerful enough to survive the creation of the universe, and that was TTGL. A few years ago, STTGL was bigger then our universe, and is currently bigger then our observable universe irl.

fightI'm not really sure how that affects the probability of an impossible event. In an argument concerning fictional events, something like Probability Control needs actual data to make a case.

What is the probability of him surviving these attacks without probability control? Do you know? How much control over probability does he have? Can he turn a 1 in 6.237623716447 10^347968253898 into a 50/50? Do we know?

This particular power is useful in the context of a plot, but useless without data in an argument. You can't really prove how well it works in a hypothetical scenario involving illogical outcomes.

**U need Leonard**

I forgot to add, not only do we not know STTGL's level of control over probability, we don't know the probability of most fictional events the power is working against. How do we know that a punch from Superman that will destroy the moon isn't a 1/1 scenario; as in, 1 way and 1 outcome or 1 way and no way to fail. STTGL would not be able to effect that, no matter how powerful his probability control is. Superman is pulling off an impossible feat, so the probability can also be impossible to alter. We just don't know.

Now, the power to alter causality can alter Superman's absolute punch, but not probability.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

That is true, too.

As meaningless as 1 would be in such a case, that is true. It all depends on the outcome someone is wants.

.

fightI'm not really sure how that affects the probability of an impossible event. In an argument concerning fictional events, something like Probability Control needs actual data to make a case.

What is the probability of him surviving these attacks without probability control? Do you know? How much control over probability does he have? Can he turn a 1 in 6.237623716447 10^347968253898 into a 50/50? Do we know?

This particular power is useful in the context of a plot, but useless without data in an argument. You can't really prove how well it works in a hypothetical scenario involving illogical outcomes.

I can by power scaling.

**U need Leonard**

Power has nothing to do with probability control.

An average human who has probability control can alter an event far outside their power set. They could stop a star from exploding and still die by being hit by a car. You're not stopping the star from exploding through sheer might, you are halting the star's death by altering the events and variables that would lead up to that outcome, by using "magic".

With probability, you're not actually preventing anything with awesome power, you're just changing the likelihood. Human's IRL actually have some unexplained degree of probability manipulation through mental avenues. If you view a random-repeating CG set of numbers, the number you actually focus on will appear more often. It's an odd and cool ability, but it's not powerful.

**SSJGGogeta**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

Power has nothing to do with probability control.

An average human who has probability control can alter an event far outside their power set. They could stop a star from exploding and still die by being hit by a car. You're not stopping the star from exploding through sheer might, you are halting the star's death by altering the events and variables that would lead up to that outcome, by using "magic".

With probability, you're not actually preventing anything with awesome power, you're just changing the likelihood. Human's IRL actually have some unexplained degree of probability manipulation through mental avenues. If you view a random-repeating CG set of numbers, the number you actually focus on will appear more often. It's an odd and cool ability, but it's not powerful.

This is pretty accurate.

I don't think Jmanghan quite gets it though. He's starting to sound more and more like BG.

**Q99**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

I forgot to add, not only do we not know STTGL's level of control over probability, we don't know the probability of most fictional events the power is working against. How do we know that a punch from Superman that will destroy the moon isn't a 1/1 scenario; as in, 1 way and 1 outcome or 1 way and no way to fail. STTGL would not be able to effect that, no matter how powerful his probability control is. Superman is pulling off an impossible feat, so the probability can also be impossible to alter. We just don't know.

Now, the power to alter causality can alter Superman's absolute punch, but not probability.

Well, Superman has failed with punches, so it's a pretty sure thing it isn't absolute.

What I was thinking of when I say, "When you're talking infinity, it's quite possible to have things with a probability of '1'. "

Was like a scenario where one throws infinite seeking attacks. In that situation, if the defense is not absolutely perfect, if the odds are not 0, then one or more of them will hit. There's never going to be an in between, it'll be 0% or 100%, and a probability control power that reduces the odds of something happening to, say, one billion billion (pretend I kept saying billion a billion times here) billionth as likely, i.e. effectively perfect against any finite attack, applied to such an infinite attack, would still have infinite chances to hit, thus, the odds of being hit remain 1:1.

**U need Leonard**

Originally posted by Q99

Well, Superman has failed with punches, so it's a pretty sure thing it isn't absolute.

What I was thinking of when I say, "When you're talking infinity, it's quite possible to have things with a probability of '1'. "

Was like a scenario where one throws infinite seeking attacks. In that situation, if the defense is not absolutely perfect, if the odds are not 0, then one or more of them will hit. There's never going to be an in between, it'll be 0% or 100%, and a probability control power that reduces the odds of something happening to, say, one billion billion (pretend I kept saying billion a billion times here) billionth as likely, i.e. effectively perfect against any finite attack, applied to such an infinite attack, would still have infinite chances to hit, thus, the odds of being hit remain 1:1.

Superman punches the moon, the moon shatters solely from the force generated by the punch. Now what is the probability of that outcome not happening?

Ah, okay. I thought you meant a 1/infinity probability.

**Jmanghan**

Except Superman isn't even a threat to STTGL, not even Pre-Crisis Supes is.

**U need Leonard**

I don't know about that, but if STTGL were going to be victorious, it wouldn't be through control over probability.

There's no way for STTGL to effectively use probability manipulation against a random Hollow, in an argument. That particular power just isn't effective without probability data.

**Jmanghan**

Originally posted by U need Leonard

I don't know about that, but if STTGL were going to be victorious, it wouldn't be through control over probability.

There's no way for STTGL to effectively use probability manipulation against a random Hollow, in an argument. That particular power just isn't effective without probability data. STTGL used probability alteration to overtake the Anti-Spiral several times.

Lemme just point out that TTGL alone survived an attack on par with the creation of the universe.

You haven't paid attention to the fight in the series, and the fight in the movie.

Before Simon and the team had gotten the power of probability alteration, they weren't able to scratch even the Anti-Spiral's lackeys DESPITE being more powerful then them.

I agree, it's inconsistent, but we have to go by what we see from the movies and show, and in the show, after they acquire probability alteration, they are able to definitively hurt the Anti-Spiral, whereas before, main attacks on the Anti-Spiral had no effect.

So you can tell that you have to be at a certain level to be able to change probability like TTGL, letalone STTGL, or to even combat it.

**U need Leonard**

Originally posted by Jmanghan

STTGL used probability alteration to overtake the Anti-Spiral several times.

Lemme just point out that TTGL alone survived an attack on par with the creation of the universe.

You haven't paid attention to the fight in the series, and the fight in the movie.

Before Simon and the team had gotten the power of probability alteration, they weren't able to scratch even the Anti-Spiral's lackeys DESPITE being more powerful then them.

I agree, it's inconsistent, but we have to go by what we see from the movies and show, and in the show, after they acquire probability alteration, they are able to definitively hurt the Anti-Spiral, whereas before, main attacks on the Anti-Spiral had no effect.

So you can tell that you have to be at a certain level to be able to change probability like TTGL, letalone STTGL, or to even combat it.

That does not tell you how effective the probability manipulation is, in this case. None of that does, not when you are using it outside of the plot against fictional characters who preform feats outside of probability. It just doesn't.

Being unable to do something and then changing the probability by some unknown degree so that you can is not useful when you have to argue how well it works. There is not enough data.

Now, if he had used probability to preform some feat that we can actually measure the probability or odds of, then we have something to work with. For all we know, his probability manipulation affords him the ability to turn a 1/1,000,000,000,001 situation into a 1/999,999,999,999.

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