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Canon feats only.

Scenario: Vader has given the offer he made to Luke to Ahsoka; she has accepted his offer to join him so that they may rule the galaxy as master and apprentice. Vader trains Ahsoka for three months before the battle, but no additional preparation is allowed. Sidious does not foresee his apprentice's deception and thus does not know of it until the battle begins.

The fight takes place inside the Imperial throne room.

Round 1: Sidious gets no sabers.

Round 2: Sidious gets two sabers.

Sidious loses the first and wins the second.

Vader past his prime and a sub-prime Vader opponent go up against the most powerful Sith of all time? I see this going very well for team.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader past his prime and a sub-prime Vader opponent go up against the most powerful Sith of all time? I see this going very well for team. And Sidious isn't past his prime ? Most guys who use canes are just entering their prime.

Sidious pwns either way. The pair haven't a chance in hell.

Originally posted by quanchi112
And Sidious isn't past his prime ? Most guys who use canes are just entering their prime.
He can just use this thing called "the Force." Sidious is canonically the most powerful he's ever been here. Vader is not. You want to pretend canon is important, now's the time to stop ignoring half of it.

Vader pwns Sidious in sabers and since Ahsoka can fight Vader she can obviously AT LEAST stalemate him as well. And Vader can tank Sidious' force attacks and since Ahsoka is practically on Vader's level in the force so can she.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He can just use this thing called "the Force." Sidious is canonically the most powerful he's ever been here. Vader is not. You want to pretend canon is important, now's the time to stop ignoring half of it. Your perception is biased and saying something like that has no evidentiary proof whatsoever.

Vader with one hand picked him up and tossed him to his death. The force didn't help him all the way down to his death.

Sidious.
Sidious.

Here's the thing. Vader is going to spend the majority of the time doing one of two things. 1. Defending Ahsoka to keep her in or 2) Spend all time attacking Sidious thus leaving Ahsoka open. Really Vader can't beat the Emperor by himself and Ahsoak can't defend herself agaisnt the emperor so I have to say Sidious wins both rounds.

Originally posted by quanchi112
And Sidious isn't past his prime ? Most guys who use canes are just entering their prime.

I think we have been over Sidious got more powerful as of ROTJ. Why wouldn't he?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your perception is biased and saying something like that has no evidentiary proof whatsoever.

Except for canonical statements by the authors. And since Vader is my favorite character in the mythos, and I hate Palpatine the most, I'm not sure how my perception is biased exactly.

It's almost like Vader grabbed him while he was distracted or something.

ROTJ Vader in canon needs more feats before I can say where he stands in relation to his Rebels/ESB self. From certain sources like Filoni it seems he was at his best around Rebels, and other than ROTJ itself we really have no idea how strong he was towards Return Of the Jedi

Sidious wins

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
and I hate Palpatine the most

wat

*****, you can read. I said Palpatine is awful.

Explain yourself.

I don't like paedophiles.

Weird.

Ahsoka would get blitzed just like the jedi in Rots and then Vader would be on his own.
Sidious wins.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I think we have been over Sidious got more powerful as of ROTJ. Why wouldn't he? Onus is on you to back your claim.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except for canonical statements by the authors. And since Vader is my favorite character in the mythos, and I hate Palpatine the most, I'm not sure how my perception is biased exactly.

It's almost like Vader grabbed him while he was distracted or something. Your perception is horribly biased whether you see it or not. Why didn't the force help him while he was picked up or before being tossed ?


The point is saying something as vague as the force wins the battle isn't really saying much of anything.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your perception is horribly biased whether you see it or not. Why didn't the force help him while he was picked up or before being tossed ?

Probably because Vader already grabbed him and is stronger, especially with cybernetically enhanced strength.

Because these vs matches assume neutral ground and them facing each other, which he clearly wasn't doing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Probably because Vader already grabbed him and is stronger, especially with cybernetically enhanced strength.

Because these vs matches assume neutral ground and them facing each other, which he clearly wasn't doing. Ok so the force can't help one from being physically overpowered.

You are right in this thread Vader has his saber and in the one matchup Sidious doesn't have his. He's screwed there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Onus is on you to back your claim.

We have been over this already, but if I must degrade myself to prove something this simple I'll end it now. Look at his apprentices. Dooku<Vader. Dooku needed help to defeat ROTS Sidiois. Vader was said to be about 80% of ROTJ Sidious and since Vader better than Dooku, Sidious would only have had to increase in power for Vader to need help to defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
We have been over this already, but if I must degrade myself to prove something this simple I'll end it now. Look at his apprentices. Dooku<Vader. Dooku needed help to defeat ROTS Sidiois. Vader was said to be about 80% of ROTJ Sidious and since Vader better than Dooku, Sidious would only have had to increase in power for Vader to need help to defeat Sidious. That is conjecture not proof.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is conjecture not proof.

Actaully no. SOD comic which is canon states that Vader is more powerful than Dooku. It was confirmed that Vader was 80% of Sidious. Sidious would have had to have become more powerful in order for Vader to need help to take down Sidious.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actaully no. SOD comic which is canon states that Vader is more powerful than Dooku. It was confirmed that Vader was 80% of Sidious. Sidious would have had to have become more powerful in order for Vader to need help to take down Sidious. When was it confirmed Vader is 80 percent power level of Sidious ? Prove it. So you can't prove his power level increased and are doing mental gymnastics to get there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Being less than Sidious is what I've always maintained but none of that statement has anything to do with comparing their light saber skills. In this thread the one Sidious loses is due to him not having a saber. Yoda wasn't even able to best Dooku on force power alone whom you agree is less powerful than Vader. Boom.

Well I will say ok try I suppose, but I shall put this down.

1) I persoanlly never disputed that Vader was more powerful but I did just prove that Vader was where I said he was.

2) We were talking about power, not lightsaber skill.

3) Just because he doesn't have a saber doesn't mean he can't win. He has the force. I'm fine with your position since its actaully the first logical one you've ever had and makes since, I just disagree.

4) you would have to show that Yoda was using his offensive force powers to best Dooku which you can't because he wasn't. He was fighting with either purely defensive force powers or purely lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok so the force can't help one from being physically overpowered.

Vader also has the Force, so....

If a lightsaber was all Vader needed to kill Sidious, he would have done it a long time ago.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well I will say ok try I suppose, but I shall put this down.

1) I persoanlly never disputed that Vader was more powerful but I did just prove that Vader was where I said he was.

2) We were talking about power, not lightsaber skill.

3) Just because he doesn't have a saber doesn't mean he can't win. He has the force. I'm fine with your position since its actaully the first logical one you've ever had and makes since, I just disagree.

4) you would have to show that Yoda was using his offensive force powers to best Dooku which you can't because he wasn't. He was fighting with either purely defensive force powers or purely lightsaber combat. 1) so you concede.

2) talking about it all in this thread since it's relevant.

3) he needed a saber against maul and Opress. Name the best Jedi or Sith he defeated without a Lightsaber while being in the same room.

4) Yoda knew the stakes and chose not to. Shame. Pathetic, really.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader also has the Force, so....

If a lightsaber was all Vader needed to kill Sidious, he would have done it a long time ago. So does Opress but will that help him in force powers against force powers ? Nah.

It helps when you couple his powers and skill with the saber. Without a saber his odds decrease. Vader lacked the spine and motivation but did so when he had hand and without using any force powers.

quanchi's like KMC debating's hoard mode lol.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1) so you concede.

2) talking about it all in this thread since it's relevant.

3) he needed a saber against maul and Opress. Name the best Jedi or Sith he defeated without a Lightsaber while being in the same room.

4) Yoda knew the stakes and chose not to. Shame. Pathetic, really.

How do I concede I proved that Vader was 80% of Sidious like I said.

2) Fine with that.

3) He didn't need his sabers since he did have them pinned against a wall from the start.

4) In other words he didn't thus your point is crushed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How do I concede I proved that Vader was 80% of Sidious like I said.

2) Fine with that.

3) He didn't need his sabers since he did have them pinned against a wall from the start.

4) In other words he didn't thus your point is crushed. You conceded that it didn't matter.

Good.

He needed his s ambers for when they attacked him. He didn't defeat them with that force push, kiddo.

No, you never made a logical point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You conceded that it didn't matter.

Good.

He needed his s ambers for when they attacked him. He didn't defeat them with that force push, kiddo.

No, you never made a logical point.

No I didn't I just said that I never disagreed that Vader was stronger but we disagreed on how much and I showed you how.

So you don't disagree that he could have thus destroying your on point.

Yea I did. Saying that Yoda didn't defeat Dooku with his more advanced force powers without looking at the context you are lost. The context is he never used offensive force powers, and you didn't dispute that thus you,conceded.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No I didn't I just said that I never disagreed that Vader was stronger but we disagreed on how much and I showed you how.

So you don't disagree that he could have thus destroying your on point.

Yea I did. Saying that Yoda didn't defeat Dooku with his more advanced force powers without looking at the context you are lost. The context is he never used offensive force powers, and you didn't dispute that thus you,conceded. My point was that it doesn't matter since he has a saber and Sidious doesn't.

What ?

We have a clear force duel and Yoda failed to do so. He knew the stakes yet was not good enough to beat someone less than himself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
My point was that it doesn't matter since he has a saber and Sidious doesn't.

What ?

We have a clear force duel and Yoda failed to do so. He knew the stakes yet was not good enough to beat someone less than himself.

While that is true for the first round you don't need a saber especially when you have the power Sidious does.

Uhhh. Sidious had them pinned and you agree he let them go thus you agree that he could have defeated them then and there with TK.

Did he use any offensive force powers? That's the question you need to answer. He never unleashed his own TK blast, he just simply deflected and redirected everything Dooku threw at him. Tell me if I'm wrong and if so show me how.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
While that is true for the first round you don't need a saber especially when you have the power Sidious does.

Uhhh. Sidious had them pinned and you agree he let them go thus you agree that he could have defeated them then and there with TK.

Did he use any offensive force powers? That's the question you need to answer. He never unleashed his own TK blast, he just simply deflected and redirected everything Dooku threw at him. Tell me if I'm wrong and if so show me how. Yes, you do hence why Vader killed him with one hand. M

He also released them so he's an idiot. He needed his sabers.

You tried moving the goalposts. The point is Yoda failed. Undeniable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, you do hence why Vader killed him with one hand. M

He also released them so he's an idiot. He needed his sabers.

You tried moving the goalposts. The point is Yoda failed. Undeniable.

No you don't. Vader wouldn't fight him by himself due to his force power more than his deuling skills.

How is he an idiot. Why should he take Maul and Savge seriously. He wanted to have fun and it was safe for him. He's not an idiot for letting them go, but more to the point thanks for the concession since you agree he released.

No what's the point in saying someone didn't win something if they never used any offense. Even Kenobi who is a defensive fighter even he uses offense. No that isn't the point, what I said is the point.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No you don't. Vader wouldn't fight him by himself due to his force power more than his deuling skills.

How is he an idiot. Why should he take Maul and Savge seriously. He wanted to have fun and it was safe for him. He's not an idiot for letting them go, but more to the point thanks for the concession since you agree he released.

No what's the point in saying someone didn't win something if they never used any offense. Even Kenobi who is a defensive fighter even he uses offense. No that isn't the point, what I said is the point. He did take him on by himself when he had one hand and no saber.

He should have taken Luke more seriously. He also is sloppy and was not ever shown to be able to force tk them whenever he wanted. Prove it.

Then prove it. You made the claim. Yoda failed and used his force powers offensively just like Kenobi. Awful debating.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He did take him on by himself when he had one hand and no saber.

He should have taken Luke more seriously. He also is sloppy and was not ever shown to be able to force tk them whenever he wanted. Prove it.

Then prove it. You made the claim. Yoda failed and used his force powers offensively just like Kenobi. Awful debating.

So what was all that in Empire Strikes Back that he needed Luke's help?

It wasn't Luke who was the problem, he was killing Luke. Also this is about Maul and Savge. It feels good for you to know that your best character SUCCCCCCCKSSSSSS.. The fact he started off TKing both of them, TK'd maul in the middle of the fight, TK'd Savage, then he then ragdolled Maul after disarming him, so yea he could have gotten them whenever.

He didn't use offensive powers. Only thing offensive he did was ending Dooku's lightning back at him. Other than that he never used his own TK to attack so to say his force powers failed to get the job done is like saying you failed to get the job done as president of the USA. You can't fail at something you never did or use.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So what was all that in Empire Strikes Back that he needed Luke's help?

It wasn't Luke who was the problem, he was killing Luke. Also this is about Maul and Savge. It feels good for you to know that your best character SUCCCCCCCKSSSSSS.. The fact he started off TKing both of them, TK'd maul in the middle of the fight, TK'd Savage, then he then ragdolled Maul after disarming him, so yea he could have gotten them whenever.

He didn't use offensive powers. Only thing offensive he did was ending Dooku's lightning back at him. Other than that he never used his own TK to attack so to say his force powers failed to get the job done is like saying you failed to get the job done as president of the USA. You can't fail at something you never did or use. He wanted his son on his side. He alluded to in rots he was going to seize power.

Luke was the problem as he forced his father to make the decision to swap and kill his weak, geriatric master.

Maul is alive he just wasn't the best at that time. That's fine as I acmoledge facts whereas you don't.

He used his powers to defeat Dooku. He failed. You have created this false theory you need to prove.

Yoda was the epitome of failure.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He wanted his son on his side. He alluded to in rots he was going to seize power.

Luke was the problem as he forced his father to make the decision to swap and kill his weak, geriatric master.

Maul is alive he just wasn't the best at that time. That's fine as I acmoledge facts whereas you don't.

He used his powers to defeat Dooku. He failed. You have created this false theory you need to prove.

Yoda was the epitome of failure.

Guess what, this is about suited Vader who lost all that potential. That Vader the more powerful and skilled one, needed help to overthrow the emperor.

Again Luke wasn't the issue. He had Luke taken care of.

And he won't be the best in TFA if he is n the film. He might have declined in skill maybe, being in his late 60s to early 70s if I'm not mistaken. Maybe even 80s. I'm not sure how I don't acknowledge facts though.

Were they offensive. If it's a theory then disprove that I said he didn't use offensive force powers. That's the point here. He can't defeat someone with force powers if he never went on offense. Only time he really went on offense was when he sent Dooku's lighting back at him.

Still #1 deulist, and #2 force weilder.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Guess what, this is about suited Vader who lost all that potential. That Vader the more powerful and skilled one, needed help to overthrow the emperor.

Again Luke wasn't the issue. He had Luke taken care of.

And he won't be the best in TFA if he is n the film. He might have declined in skill maybe, being in his late 60s to early 70s if I'm not mistaken. Maybe even 80s. I'm not sure how I don't acknowledge facts though.

Were they offensive. If it's a theory then disprove that I said he didn't use offensive force powers. That's the point here. He can't defeat someone with force powers if he never went on offense. Only time he really went on offense was when he sent Dooku's lighting back at him.

Still #1 deulist, and #2 force weilder. At no point was this even alluded to as the reasons. He was emotionally unstable and all over the map and made his choice in the heat of the moment.

Luke was the reason he changed. He was the issue.

Speculation. He comes from an alien species not a human being, kiddo.

Your theory but he wanted to defeat Dooku. He failed.

Iyo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
At no point was this even alluded to as the reasons. He was emotionally unstable and all over the map and made his choice in the heat of the moment.

Luke was the reason he changed. He was the issue.

Speculation. He comes from an alien species not a human being, kiddo.

Your theory but he wanted to defeat Dooku. He failed.

Iyo.

Doesn't really matter. His actions throughout life limited him. He wasn't training himself well enough to actaully be up to par, at least with his force powers. I mean come on, equal to Obi wan? That's to weak for someone lies him. Darth Vader, would destroy Obi wan. He actaully used what he had and made it work. All of the following are reasons you silly.

No Vader was the issue. Take Vader out everything is still the same. Vader was supposed to stay still and let Luke die, that's how Sidious trained him. Everything over the past 2 decades Sidious did to make sure he had complete control over Vader and Sidious did that, but Vader some how broke that.

Actaully it's not. He was around his 20s-30s by end of TCW or SOD where we see him last. 20 years went by from then to ROTJ I believe. So that's 50s. Then in between ROTJ to TFA is 30 years so 80s there. That right there is a 50-60 year gap, that he most likely quant been trianing. So? Prove his species has an aging factor that wards the effects of age off.

Facts aren't theories. Did he use any offensive force powers besides sending lightning back? Yes or No?

Actaully it's fact. By ROTS he disarmed Sidious and was his equal in the force of maybe slightly lower with Sidious getting the slight edge. He's better than Windu and Anakin and Dooku who are the closest contenders.

So the list goes for deuling

Yoda
Sidious
Anakin(Invisble Hand)
Dooku/Windu
Obi wan
The rest follow.

The force

Sidious/Yoda
Dooku/Windu
Anakin/Obi wan

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

So the list goes for deuling

Yoda
Sidious
Anakin(Invisble Hand)
Dooku/Windu
Obi wan
The rest follow.

The force

Sidious/Yoda
Dooku/Windu
Anakin/Obi wan

What's the problem.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Doesn't really matter. His actions throughout life limited him. He wasn't training himself well enough to actaully be up to par, at least with his force powers. I mean come on, equal to Obi wan? That's to weak for someone lies him. Darth Vader, would destroy Obi wan. He actaully used what he had and made it work. All of the following are reasons you silly.

No Vader was the issue. Take Vader out everything is still the same. Vader was supposed to stay still and let Luke die, that's how Sidious trained him. Everything over the past 2 decades Sidious did to make sure he had complete control over Vader and Sidious did that, but Vader some how broke that.

Actaully it's not. He was around his 20s-30s by end of TCW or SOD where we see him last. 20 years went by from then to ROTJ I believe. So that's 50s. Then in between ROTJ to TFA is 30 years so 80s there. That right there is a 50-60 year gap, that he most likely quant been trianing. So? Prove his species has an aging factor that wards the effects of age off.

Facts aren't theories. Did he use any offensive force powers besides sending lightning back? Yes or No?

Actaully it's fact. By ROTS he disarmed Sidious and was his equal in the force of maybe slightly lower with Sidious getting the slight edge. He's better than Windu and Anakin and Dooku who are the closest contenders.

So the list goes for deuling

Yoda
Sidious
Anakin(Invisble Hand)
Dooku/Windu
Obi wan
The rest follow.

The force

Sidious/Yoda
Dooku/Windu
Anakin/Obi wan Speculation.

Vader didn't hence sidious' poor decision making which cost him his life. He also brought this up to Vader so he already worried about this.

You stated he would be worse so it's your claim to prove. He doesn't belong to the human race so quit judging him by those standards.

You still don't know the difference between a theory and a fact.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculation.

Vader didn't hence sidious' poor decision making which cost him his life. He also brought this up to Vader so he already worried about this.

You stated he would be worse so it's your claim to prove. He doesn't belong to the human race so quit judging him by those standards.

You still don't know the difference between a theory and a fact.

How is that specualtion. It's right there in the movie. His highest feat was stalemtaing Obi wan in a force contest. Pretty low for the chosen one.

He already brought it up and believed it was settled in his favor and he should have. He spent the last 20+ years making sure Gader was under his thumb, and he did that but Anakin skywalker came back and caused that switch.

It's common sense that if you don't practice then you're skill will leave you, then if you don't practice for 50-60+ years than yes your skills in the force and the blade will deteriorate. Also he is a humanoid species actaully. So yes I will hold him to human standards since you can't prove there isn't an age factor for his species. You made the claim that since he is an alien species then that means he won't age the same? What is the disparity? That's what you need to prove.

I think it's you who doesn't. Also show me where he uses off waive force powers besides sending Dooku's lightning back.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How is that specualtion. It's right there in the movie. His highest feat was stalemtaing Obi wan in a force contest. Pretty low for the chosen one.

He already brought it up and believed it was settled in his favor and he should have. He spent the last 20+ years making sure Gader was under his thumb, and he did that but Anakin skywalker came back and caused that switch.

It's common sense that if you don't practice then you're skill will leave you, then if you don't practice for 50-60+ years than yes your skills in the force and the blade will deteriorate. Also he is a humanoid species actaully. So yes I will hold him to human standards since you can't prove there isn't an age factor for his species. You made the claim that since he is an alien species then that means he won't age the same? What is the disparity? That's what you need to prove.

I think it's you who doesn't. Also show me where he uses off waive force powers besides sending Dooku's lightning back. Prove his training wasn't up to par. Kenobi also beat him at his best.

So he blew twenty years and ended up being wrong. What an idiot. In 20 years you should know someone but Palpatine obviously didn't.

Prove he didn't practice. He isn't a human being.

He wanted to win and didn't. Onus is on you to prove he purposely held back.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove his training wasn't up to par. Kenobi also beat him at his best.

So he blew twenty years and ended up being wrong. What an idiot. In 20 years you should know someone but Palpatine obviously didn't.

Prove he didn't practice. He isn't a human being.

He wanted to win and didn't. Onus is on you to prove he purposely held back.

He was only able to stalemate Kenobi. He spent more time with his LIGHTSBAER deuling and this is also shown by how people like Vantress or Barris can break through his force wall on a,constant basis. Also in AOTC Kenobi says "If you spent more time practicing your lightsaber techniques as much as you do your flying you would rival master Yoda as a swordsmem? He says that in AOTC, then in ROTS we see he is on Yoda level after training so much. At least his Invisble Hand moment he is on Yoda level.

He did. He most likely didn't understand a fathers love since he didn't have it.

Why would he? He has no drive. He has no goal. He can't get to any level of the top people, and Sidious is dead now. He has no reason to train. He is humanoid, so he would age relatively the same as humans. I agree that he may have a slight edge with age but at Thai time he has defintly aged and it most likely has taken its tole.

Watch the Yoda vs Dooku fight. He uses no offensive force powers with the exception of the lighting thing.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He was only able to stalemate Kenobi. He spent more time with his LIGHTSBAER deuling and this is also shown by how people like Vantress or Barris can break through his force wall on a,constant basis. Also in AOTC Kenobi says "If you spent more time practicing your lightsaber techniques as much as you do your flying you would rival master Yoda as a swordsmem? He says that in AOTC, then in ROTS we see he is on Yoda level after training so much. At least his Invisble Hand moment he is on Yoda level.

He did. He most likely didn't understand a fathers love since he didn't have it.

Why would he? He has no drive. He has no goal. He can't get to any level of the top people, and Sidious is dead now. He has no reason to train. He is humanoid, so he would age relatively the same as humans. I agree that he may have a slight edge with age but at Thai time he has defintly aged and it most likely has taken its tole.

Watch the Yoda vs Dooku fight. He uses no offensive force powers with the exception of the lighting thing. That doesn't mean he quits dueling and practicing that just means he doesn't obsessively practice as much as Kenobi would like him to.

Palpatine erred and it cost him his life. Idiot.

You are saying he has no drive when he had a drive the entire time during clone wars after his mind was restored. You are speculating which isn't proof.


Yoda tried and lost. Your stance is just conjecture.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That doesn't mean he quits dueling and practicing that just means he doesn't obsessively practice as much as Kenobi would like him to.

Palpatine erred and it cost him his life. Idiot.

You are saying he has no drive when he had a drive the entire time during clone wars after his mind was restored. You are speculating which isn't proof.


Yoda tried and lost. Your stance is just conjecture.

Exactly so that strength and power has decreased due to not angling that level of practice, not saying he is compleltey bad, but not as good as he used to.

An idiot couldn't take an entire government and Darth Vader and Dooku.

What was the drive though? Answer that and your point is crushed.

https://youtu.be/PLV-Vpy1gqQm 0:10-1:08 that's the force duel. Now, tell me again how this is conjecture.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Exactly so that strength and power has decreased due to not angling that level of practice, not saying he is compleltey bad, but not as good as he used to.

An idiot couldn't take an entire government and Darth Vader and Dooku.

What was the drive though? Answer that and your point is crushed.

https://youtu.be/PLV-Vpy1gqQm 0:10-1:08 that's the force duel. Now, tell me again how this is conjecture. That wasn't around the time of him in the suit and he defeated Dooku so you're saying he didn't trees to be at his best.


When you're surrounded by other idiots of course you could.


So ? Conjecture.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That wasn't around the time of him in the suit and he defeated Dooku so you're saying he didn't trees to be at his best.


When you're surrounded by other idiots of course you could.


So ? Conjecture.


This Vader without the suit. He wasn't training enough, this is shown by how he was only able to stalemate Kenobi. Lightsaber training was his speciality, the force not so much. This all wraps up to him not being as strong as he could be sense lower level force users could penetrate his shields. Also what wasn't around.

These are senators like Padme and Bail, these aren't idiots. He is just very manipulative and smart.

Concession accepted. You didn't respond to this one.

Where the proof of that? I posted the video and I told you to tell me how me saying Yoda not using offensive force powers is conjecture. Saying conjecture isn't proving it son.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This Vader without the suit. He wasn't training enough, this is shown by how he was only able to stalemate Kenobi. Lightsaber training was his speciality, the force not so much. This all wraps up to him not being as strong as he could be sense lower level force users could penetrate his shields. Also what wasn't around.

These are senators like Padme and Bail, these aren't idiots. He is just very manipulative and smart.

Concession accepted. You didn't respond to this one.

Where the proof of that? I posted the video and I told you to tell me how me saying Yoda not using offensive force powers is conjecture. Saying conjecture isn't proving it son. Speculative but the best part is he killed Dooku thus making him look pathetic.

Idiots since the dark lord was around him the entire time.

Yes, I'd did. What you're saying is conjecture not the scene but you're not smart enough to grasp that.

ES2, stop debating in favor of characters I like.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculative but the best part is he killed Dooku thus making him look pathetic.

Idiots since the dark lord was around him the entire time.

Yes, I'd did. What you're saying is conjecture not the scene but you're not smart enough to grasp that.

Actually not, since weaker force weilders continuously break through his guard, and while he has a lot of raw power, he comes up short.

Again incredibly manipulative and smart.

The scen itself showed he didn't use offensive force powers, so.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actually not, since weaker force weilders continuously break through his guard, and while he has a lot of raw power, he comes up short.

Again incredibly manipulative and smart.

The scen itself showed he didn't use offensive force powers, so. Conjecture.


Not smart enough to avoid death in an incredibly stupid way.


That doesn't mean he didn't try to win. That just proves he's stupid. I agree.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Conjecture.


Not smart enough to avoid death in an incredibly stupid way.


That doesn't mean he didn't try to win. That just proves he's stupid. I agree.

Well it's not like you know what conjecture means, you just use it to sound smart.

Smart enough to take down a government and manipulate some of the most intelligent beings in the galaxy.

So you agree with my claim, thus you concede. My point was never that he wasn't trying, my point was he didn't use offensive force powers which is the truth. So concession accepted.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well it's not like you know what conjecture means, you just use it to sound smart.

Smart enough to take down a government and manipulate some of the most intelligent beings in the galaxy.

So you agree with my claim, thus you concede. My point was never that he wasn't trying, my point was he didn't use offensive force powers which is the truth. So concession accepted. I grasp it you clearly don't.

Because he faced stupid clods. He ended up dying to a man who served him for over twenty years. Idiot.

Your point was Yoda was stupid for not using them offensively. I agree he's an idiot.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I grasp it you clearly don't.

Because he faced stupid clods. He ended up dying to a man who served him for over twenty years. Idiot.

Your point was Yoda was stupid for not using them offensively. I agree he's an idiot.

I know I do but you don't.

Again guy who could take down an entire government, tame Maul, Dooku, and Vader, became the most powerful being in the galaxy, and more.

So you agree concession accepted. As a final remark for this line, no my point was that he didn't use them offensively, which isn't bad, the same result was going to happen with his saber he almost beat Dooku, if he only had a few more seconds.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I know I do but you don't.

Again guy who could take down an entire government, tame Maul, Dooku, and Vader, became the most powerful being in the galaxy, and more.

So you agree concession accepted. As a final remark for this line, no my point was that he didn't use them offensively, which isn't bad, the same result was going to happen with his saber he almost beat Dooku, if he only had a few more seconds. You are delusional.


Due to idiots not recognizing the dark lord right in front of them. Jhan would crush his skull.

He died to a one armed cyborg he knew for over two decades.

Nah. Yoda was dumb and failed. He failed against a guy he's more powerful and more skilled than. Yoda sucked.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are delusional.


Due to idiots not recognizing the dark lord right in front of them. Jhan would crush his skull.

He died to a one armed cyborg he knew for over two decades.

Nah. Yoda was dumb and failed. He failed against a guy he's more powerful and more skilled than. Yoda sucked.

Yes you are.

Not even the Jedi council could. If they couldn't what hope did the senate have. No one could have seen that coming. Well Khan would have to get past his force choke which no one has proved he can get past.

So? Look at the context of the situation and come back to me.

Yea you did. You just said that he didn't use his powers offensively.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yes you are.

Not even the Jedi council could. If they couldn't what hope did the senate have. No one could have seen that coming. Well Khan would have to get past his force choke which no one has proved he can get past.

So? Look at the context of the situation and come back to me.

Yea you did. You just said that he didn't use his powers offensively. You doesn't me pan me, kiddo.


Because they were all stupid and deserved to be wiped out.


Khan crushes his head easier than a one armed Vader picked him up and threw him to death.

Irony.

Yoda failed against an inferior opponent due to stupidity.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You doesn't me pan me, kiddo.


Because they were all stupid and deserved to be wiped out.


Khan crushes his head easier than a one armed Vader picked him up and threw him to death.

Irony.

Yoda failed against an inferior opponent due to stupidity.

You obviously don't understand how insults work.

Well according to Yoda, the dark side did cloud their vision and only the dark lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. So he was able to block them out.

When you can prove he gets past his force powers call me. Sidious won't be distracted here so he pretty much has this locked up.

Good so you've looked at the context and know I'm right.

Well that's you, but I've proved my point here. My work is done.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You obviously don't understand how insults work.

Well according to Yoda, the dark side did cloud their vision and only the dark lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. So he was able to block them out.

When you can prove he gets past his force powers call me. Sidious won't be distracted here so he pretty much has this locked up.

Good so you've looked at the context and know I'm right.

Well that's you, but I've proved my point here. My work is done. Irony.

You don't have to tap into the force to figure things out which only further validates my point.


Sabers.

False. Untrue. Yoda is legit stupid.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Irony.

You don't have to tap into the force to figure things out which only further validates my point.


Sabers.

False. Untrue. Yoda is legit stupid.

It's funny how you use false irony to get out of things.

Well explain then how they were supposed to know he was a Sith then without the force. Really without Sidious is a normal person that why they need the force.

Khan has lightsaber now? Lol.

You already have explitly. No need in denying it.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It's funny how you use false irony to get out of things.

Well explain then how they were supposed to know he was a Sith then without the force. Really without Sidious is a normal person that why they need the force.

Khan has lightsaber now? Lol.

You already have explitly. No need in denying it. False.

Detective work, logical reasoning.

Khan isn't in this thread. Get it together.

Yoda failed and you have argued because he's stupid.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False.

Detective work, logical reasoning.

Khan isn't in this thread. Get it together.

Yoda failed and you have argued because he's stupid.

Actaully no. Everytime I engage you, you use irony to get out of it.

Where is the logic to evn put grounds for investigating THE SUPREME CHANCELLOR OF THE REPUBLIC. This is all on you to prove since you made the claim. What cause woudl they have to search him the first place, how would the investigation even come about, you must explain.

You brought him in here. Get your mind straight.

That's the final concession on this one.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actaully no. Everytime I engage you, you use irony to get out of it.

Where is the logic to evn put grounds for investigating THE SUPREME CHANCELLOR OF THE REPUBLIC. This is all on you to prove since you made the claim. What cause woudl they have to search him the first place, how would the investigation even come about, you must explain.

You brought him in here. Get your mind straight.

That's the final concession on this one. You say many ironic things.

The fact that he was a shady, manipulative ****. He was the dark lord and they had no clue. He worked through Dooku and had various agents and misdealings they never had a clue about.


Irony.


Yoda failed because he's a lifetime failure.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You say many ironic things.

The fact that he was a shady, manipulative ****. He was the dark lord and they had no clue. He worked through Dooku and had various agents and misdealings they never had a clue about.


Irony.


Yoda failed because he's a lifetime failure.

Actaully I don't.

He wasn't shady. He was the perfect guy to the senate and the Jedi. The Jedi just dont like politicians. So waht you say that they should investigate every every senator just because they don't like them. He was a focused leader and very intelligent. What else were they supposed to do, he stayed in office long after his term had expired, so did FDR yet look at him, known as one of our nations best presidents.

Tanks for proving my points.

Well I've proved my point here. I don't care if Yoda was a failure or not, I really don't, I proved my point so please go on about Yoda being a failure.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Actaully I don't.

He wasn't shady. He was the perfect guy to the senate and the Jedi. The Jedi just dont like politicians. So waht you say that they should investigate every every senator just because they don't like them. He was a focused leader and very intelligent. What else were they supposed to do, he stayed in office long after his term had expired, so did FDR yet look at him, known as one of our nations best presidents.

Tanks for proving my points.

Well I've proved my point here. I don't care if Yoda was a failure or not, I really don't, I proved my point so please go on about Yoda being a failure. Yes, you do.

He was shady because we know what he was really doing. Shady people do shady things, dummy. The Jedi were morons and deserved their order to be crushed.


Irony. Yoda failed and your silly nonsensical theory doesn't override the fact Yoda was there to stop Dooku and failed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, you do.

He was shady because we know what he was really doing. Shady people do shady things, dummy. The Jedi were morons and deserved their order to be crushed.


Irony. Yoda failed and your silly nonsensical theory doesn't override the fact Yoda was there to stop Dooku and failed.

No.

We. Thanks for proving my point. We as in the audience knew he was the sith. Now let's end this shall we and get back to my point. How was the senate and the Jedi supposed to know he was a Sith? You just said we knew he was doing shady things but they didn't, so how,were they supposed to know?

Theory is something that isn't proven. Idc about Yoda failing that has nothing to do with my claim.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No.

We. Thanks for proving my point. We as in the audience knew he was the sith. Now let's end this shall we and get back to my point. How was the senate and the Jedi supposed to know he was a Sith? You just said we knew he was doing shady things but they didn't, so how,were they supposed to know?

Theory is something that isn't proven. Idc about Yoda failing that has nothing to do with my claim. Yeah.

Because of all his shady under dealings for years and the Jedi supposedly being intelligent beings. This wasn't some guy off the grid it was someone operating right under their noses.

Yoda was a born failure so success was very alien to him. At least he was good at coping with his list of atrocious failures. The Sith wouldn't tolerate that ****up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah.

Because of all his shady under dealings for years and the Jedi supposedly being intelligent beings. This wasn't some guy off the grid it was someone operating right under their noses.

Yoda was a born failure so success was very alien to him. At least he was good at coping with his list of atrocious failures. The Sith wouldn't tolerate that ****up.

And him being the powerful, intelligent, control of the entire galaxy, manipulative Dark Lord of the Sith/Supreme Chancellor of the Republic that he is, how is anyone supposed to know? It's not like he doesn't cover his tracks and hide himself in the force.

Tell me, why do I care about this? How does this relate to the point I made? I'll tell you, it doesn't.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
And him being the powerful, intelligent, control of the entire galaxy, manipulative Dark Lord of the Sith/Supreme Chancellor of the Republic that he is, how is anyone supposed to know? It's not like he doesn't cover his tracks and hide himself in the force.

Tell me, why do I care about this? How does this relate to the point I made? I'll tell you, it doesn't. The fact he's leaving a trail of shady dealings over the Galaxy.

The force can't make him invisible and the endi were colossal morons.

Concession accepted.

Oh God.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The fact he's leaving a trail of shady dealings over the Galaxy.

The force can't make him invisible and the endi were colossal morons.

Concession accepted.

Your saying things we already know, but you haven't answered the question how was anyone supposed to know? You've evaded that several times. If you don't answer this time you concede.

Of course not Quan, we can see him kiddo We just don't sense his dark signature.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Your saying things we already know, but you haven't answered the question how was anyone supposed to know? You've evaded that several times. If you don't answer this time you concede.

Of course not Quan, we can see him kiddo We just don't sense his dark signature. the fact he was having numerous meetings with Dooku. The Jedi need to be aware and have their spies in place. They didn't and got wrecked. There were problems with the clones and they didn't break down the mystery further.

I saw it but the dummy Jedi didn't until it was too late.

Originally posted by quanchi112
the fact he was having numerous meetings with Dooku. The Jedi need to be aware and have their spies in place. They didn't and got wrecked. There were problems with the clones and they didn't break down the mystery further.

I saw it but the dummy Jedi didn't until it was too late.

How are THEY SUPPOSED TO KNOW. YOU IDIOT THATS THE QUESTION. WE KNOW HE WAS, BUT HOW ARE THEY. ITS ALL DONE IN SECRET.

Cause guess what we as the audience so things that they don't on purpose. We saw the original trilogy, they didn't so we know outcomes and such. We know information they don't. So concession accepted since you can't box your way out of this one.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How are THEY SUPPOSED TO KNOW. YOU IDIOT THATS THE QUESTION. WE KNOW HE WAS, BUT HOW ARE THEY. ITS ALL DONE IN SECRET.

Cause guess what we as the audience so things that they don't on purpose. We saw the original trilogy, they didn't so we know outcomes and such. We know information they don't. So concession accepted since you can't box your way out of this one. The fact a clone showed huge problems due to the order 66 being built in. I already said it. They never uncovered this. Anakin should have been suspicious when Palpatine ordered him to kill Dooku as well. We see the dark side come out but he's retarded as are the Jedi of that era.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The fact a clone showed huge problems due to the order 66 being built in. I already said it. They never uncovered this. Anakin should have been suspicious when Palpatine ordered him to kill Dooku as well. We see the dark side come out but he's retarded as are the Jedi of that era.

We are back to square one. The Jedi already knew that another Jedi or someone had already commissioned the order of the clones before he became Chancellor so you can't tie that to him. Even though WE know the truth, THEY don't. Why would he be suspicious of killing Dooku? Do you not know who Dooku was?

Don't join the military, police force, or any type of law enforcement, don't become a teacher, don't do anything. You know just stay at home, that's the only place you can't spread this. You have no common sense.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
We are back to square one. The Jedi already knew that another Jedi or someone had already commissioned the order of the clones before he became Chancellor so you can't tie that to him. Even though WE know the truth, THEY don't. Why would he be suspicious of killing Dooku? Do you not know who Dooku was?

Don't join the military, police force, or any type of law enforcement, don't become a teacher, don't do anything. You know just stay at home, that's the only place you can't spread this. You have no common sense. They could tie that back to him they just weren't smart enough to do so. He should have been suspicious of his bloodthirsty nature in that scene.

The police don't preach the murder of downed opponents. You're an idiot if you think ethical police gun people down in cuffs. Darksiders do which is the point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They could tie that back to him they just weren't smart enough to do so. He should have been suspicious of his bloodthirsty nature in that scene.

The police don't preach the murder of downed opponents. You're an idiot if you think ethical police gun people down in cuffs. Darksiders do which is the point.

So so so so so,your trying to tell me that they are going to tie back the creation of clones to someone who had no control of republic military would somehow be tied back to him? This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. After 3 years of war everyone is blood thirsty. The Jedi council went all assainatikn on Dooku. You don't understand what a long time of war will do to ones morals.

No I'm saying, your so idiotic you would let Dooku live or be suspicious of why you were ordered to kill him, you are that stupid. That's why you don't need to be on anything like that because I wouldn't feel safe at night.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
So so so so so,your trying to tell me that they are going to tie back the creation of clones to someone who had no control of republic military would somehow be tied back to him? This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. After 3 years of war everyone is blood thirsty. The Jedi council went all assainatikn on Dooku. You don't understand what a long time of war will do to ones morals.

No I'm saying, your so idiotic you would let Dooku live or be suspicious of why you were ordered to kill him, you are that stupid. That's why you don't need to be on anything like that because I wouldn't feel safe at night. The trail led back to him and the fact you believe three years is too much for the Jedi to figure out only further validates my pistol they are retarded.

The Jedi don't take orders from Palpatine and Anakin knew it was wrong to do. He was weak. Having him as a prisoner meant they could have extracted valuable information. The Jedi were moronic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The trail led back to him and the fact you believe three years is too much for the Jedi to figure out only further validates my pistol they are retarded.

The Jedi don't take orders from Palpatine and Anakin knew it was wrong to do. He was weak. Having him as a prisoner meant they could have extracted valuable information. The Jedi were moronic.

WE know that. THEY didn't. They couldn't figure it out until they knew who the Sith was which was a long time after. Actaully Sidious was chancellor for like 10-13 years. So that only proves that he hid his dark signature in the force.

Actaully they do. They take orders from the senate, and Sidious was in control of the senate so they take orders from him if he deems it so unless it interferes with their traditions. Military wise and as servants of the republic yes they do what he says. Having him alive could have meant he could have escaped like he did in Dark Disciple.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
WE know that. THEY didn't. They couldn't figure it out until they knew who the Sith was which was a long time after. Actaully Sidious was chancellor for like 10-13 years. So that only proves that he hid his dark signature in the force.

Actaully they do. They take orders from the senate, and Sidious was in control of the senate so they take orders from him if he deems it so unless it interferes with their traditions. Military wise and as servants of the republic yes they do what he says. Having him alive could have meant he could have escaped like he did in Dark Disciple. Yes, I agree they are stupid and couldn't figure it out. People today figure out murders from 20 plus years ago with a lot less manpower and resources as the Jedi.

Not the Jedi. They don't just bow to his whims. Anakin dis but he was weak. Very weak.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, I agree they are stupid and couldn't figure it out. People today figure out murders from 20 plus years ago with a lot less manpower and resources as the Jedi.

Not the Jedi. They don't just bow to his whims. Anakin dis but he was weak. Very weak.

I'm going to tell you this now. If you were in there shoes you wouldn't have figured it out. I know that for a fact.

Yes they take orders from him. He is the supreme Chancellor of the republic=President of the United States. The Jedi are Generals/commanders=to human us army counterparts. The soldiers/Generals take orders from the president.

On behalf of every debater in history, please ****ing stop this debate. God damn.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I'm going to tell you this now. If you were in there shoes you wouldn't have figured it out. I know that for a fact.

Yes they take orders from him. He is the supreme Chancellor of the republic=President of the United States. The Jedi are Generals/commanders=to human us army counterparts. The soldiers/Generals take orders from the president. No, the Jedi operates separately and if they blindly did what he wanted they wouldn't have wanted to spy on Palpatine. They were wishing up finally but it was too little too late. Watch the film.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On behalf of every debater in history, please ****ing stop this debate. God damn. I will never stop. I'll break him like I broke Darth Thor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I will never stop. I'll break him like I broke Darth Thor.
Possible Response #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoo8B7MFUY0&t=1m06s

Possible Response #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNQUF2C2vE&t=0m36s

NOTE: I expect #2 to fully fly over your head.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Possible Response #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoo8B7MFUY0&t=1m06s

Possible Response #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNQUF2C2vE&t=0m36s

NOTE: I expect #2 to fully fly over your head. As soon as I saw it was that Revan guy I safely clicked off before it started. Close call.

Don't say that Quan. You gotta respect Ant's right to a safe space.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, the Jedi operates separately and if they blindly did what he wanted they wouldn't have wanted to spy on Palpatine. They were wishing up finally but it was too little too late. Watch the film.

Yea and the film shows they mistrust him as a politician not as a Sith. This is over. You've lost as you do everytime.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
This is over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiM5zEEI_Jo&t=1m29s

Inb4 it's not over.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Yea and the film shows they mistrust him as a politician not as a Sith. This is over. You've lost as you do everytime. So they realized he was full of shit but were too dumb to figure out just how evil he was. Thanks for conceding without knowing it.

Bump to account for recent showings.

Still no chance

Even with Bane's help team 1 still dies

Originally posted by carthage
Even with Bane's help team 1 still dies

+1