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Both have week prep and knowledge of one another.

Savage is coming to destroy New York.

New York gets destroyed.

Okay has access to Manhattan

Had to give Ozy a lot of padding huh.

Ozy, easily

How would Ozy take him down?

Savage was able to take an arrow to the chest, pluck it out, and continue like it was nothing. Was also able to react fast enough to hit Flash.

But even Savage can't mess with Manhattan, unless the staff of horus can hurt him somehow.

You don't get into a prep war with Ozy. I have no idea how he'd take him down, I only know, that he would take him down.

KT is right, Ozy did stop a immortal, one much more powerful then Savage.

And did trick Manhatten who can see the future.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
KT is right, Ozy did stop a immortal, one much more powerful then Savage.

And did trick Manhatten who can see the future.

How did he stop an immortal? He used a device to try to kill him, it failed. Manhattan chose not to do anything because he thought the world would be better off.

I also thought Manhattan couldn't see his own future?

Ozymandias didn't stop Manhattan per se, but was smart enough to drop billions into tachyon research in order to momentarily stop Doc's vision, smart enough to play on Manhattan's emotions(when no one else could read Manhattan); making it so Manhanntan would leave earth and smart enough to know that Manhattan would ultimately agree with what he did.

He's a supreme master of prep, the one thing he failed at was thinking Manhattan could be destroyed, but even then he had a contingency plan, his plan.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ozymandias didn't stop Manhattan per se, but was smart enough to drop billions into tachyon research in order to momentarily stop Doc's vision, smart enough to play on Manhattan's emotions(when no one else could read Manhattan); making it so Manhanntan would leave earth and smart enough to know that Manhattan would ultimately agree with what he did.

He's a supreme master of prep, the one thing he failed at was thinking Manhattan could be destroyed, but even then he had a contingency plan, his plan.

Is it wrong this post aroused me?

Ozymandias didn't have just a week of prep against Manhattan though. It took him a long time to put things in place for that. Plus the fact that he knows Manhattan personally is a big part of how he accomplished his plan.

Okay, and Manhattan is exponentially more powerful and a better foe than anybody Vandal went up against, let alone did well against.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay, and Manhattan is exponentially more powerful and a better foe than anybody Vandal went up against, let alone did well against.

Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that he needed way way more time than just a week to get his plan to work plus the fact that he had to have intimate knowledge about Manhattan to know the person's interests and principles.

What I'm saying is that that feat is not exactly a great example of how Ozy will deal with Savage, since it was able to happen under very specific circumstances.

We know that Savage was capable of blowing up an entire city after outfighting an entire room of people who would stomp Ozy into the ground. All in the span of 24 hours. He could have done it sooner but he wanted to give them a fighting chance.

We also know that he's been brilliant enough to subtly leave his mark on the world and work his way into positions of power through the ages and is one of the best strategists and planners in recorded history.

In fact the only way Ozy can do anything is to just tell Manhattan to blow Savage up, which is kinda unfair as he has no defense against that unless the SoH can work to protect him.

You're saying that each person Vandal was outfighting are above Ozy?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that he needed way way more time than just a week to get his plan to work plus the fact that he had to have intimate knowledge about Manhattan to know the person's interests and principles.

What I'm saying is that that feat is not exactly a great example of how Ozy will deal with Savage, since it was able to happen under very specific circumstances.

Don't really disagree with most of this, but you're forgetting what you just agreed with me about. Manhattan being exponentially above anybody Vandal has faced let alone did well against. You're equating how long it took him to prep for him.. while forgetting it took that long because he's Manhattan. That IS why it took so long, because again, he's exponentially above anybody Vandal faced. If it took him that long to prep to beat Joe Blow I'd agree with you. Point is, it took that long for Manhattan, but certainly wouldn't take near as long for Vandal, being well well below Manhattan and all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're saying that each person Vandal was outfighting are above Ozy?

I'm saying that that entire group together would stomp Ozy into the ground. Mainly due to Barry, Hawkman, and Ollie but still. If Savage can outfight a Flash, Green Arrow, Hawkman, some Arrow sidekicks and Hawkgirl all at once with ease, he should be able to take Ozy down if it turns into a fight.

But this is of course on the extreme off chance Vandal can get past Manhattan. He could technically just nuke the city I guess. Even destroying a portion would probably win the fight for him. I wonder if Manhattan could just negate a blast of that size.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Don't really disagree with most of this, but you're forgetting what you just agreed with me about. Manhattan being exponentially above anybody Vandal has faced let alone did well against. You're equating how long it took him to prep for him.. while forgetting it took that long because he's Manhattan. That IS why it took so long, because again, he's exponentially above anybody Vandal faced. If it took him that long to prep to beat Joe Blow I'd agree with you. Point is, it took that long for Manhattan, but certainly wouldn't take near as long for Vandal, being well well below Manhattan and all.

Problem is Ozy never really did fight Manhattan, so it's not like he was able to outright beat him. All Ozy did was put Manhattan in a position where he agreed with Ozy's vision for humanity. That's not exactly beating Manhattan as it is convincing him to do nothing.

So we can't say "Ozy beat Manhattan who is extremely more powerful than Savage" because Manhattan never really brought his full powers against Ozy.

That's just it though, that IS how he had to beat him. He's not going to physically overpower him or something like that. Manhattan is nigh immortal. So even getting Manhattan to go along with his vision and to even know how to get him to do that... considering Manhattan's powers is pretty uber really

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's just it though, that IS how he had to beat him. He's not going to physically overpower him or something like that. Manhattan is nigh immortal. So even getting Manhattan to go along with his vision and to even know how to get him to do that... considering Manhattan's powers is pretty uber really

If I slapped Mike Tyson in the face, and just before he retaliates I tell him that if he hits me I'll sue him.. and since he doesn't want the legal trouble anymore he decides not to do anything to me.

Would you say that I was able to beat Mike Tyson? Or would you say I was simply able to get one over him?

And that's my point. Ozy was able to manipulate Manhattan into a position he found favorable but he didn't defeat Manhattan.

You can say he "beat" Manhattan but that's not the kind of defeat he'll need to use on Savage. As per forum rules, he needs to actually defeat Savage, not simply convince Savage to not fight him.

Besides, in this thread Savage also has prep and knowledge on Ozy. Manhattan had no such prep or knowledge.

Manhattan to me has constant prep because he can see his past, and future.

Yeah so you basically had to give Ozy a game trainer to beat Savage. Which really you've made it spite against Savage by putting Manhattan in it.

Not really, Savage is extremely powerful in prep, and he cant die really. Seems even after he was turned to dust, he will be coming back. I never said Manhattan could be used in the fight, only that he has access to his tech.

He was immortal but clearly could die. He's only coming back because the LoS is gonna use a Lazarus Pit I'm guessing. And given that Manhattan can see the future, he can tell Ozy every single thing Vandal plans to do.

Still, it's doubtful Ozy can do anything in a week's time to stop the Staff of Horus. All Vandal has to do is slam it on the ground and New York is instantly a crater.

If Manhattan saw that, he could possible use a shield generator from his own power like the one Ozy used in reverse to blow everyone up. I remember similar blasts from Manhattan/Ozy machine, so it might not be that hard to reproduce a shield to contain that.

But that's conjecture. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. But we know for a fact that Savage can immediately obliterate the entire city by tapping his staff on the ground.

Its viable in a prep fight I think.

Originally posted by KingD19
He was immortal but clearly could die. He's only coming back because the LoS is gonna use a Lazarus Pit I'm guessing. And given that Manhattan can see the future, he can tell Ozy every single thing Vandal plans to do.

Still, it's doubtful Ozy can do anything in a week's time to stop the Staff of Horus. All Vandal has to do is slam it on the ground and New York is instantly a crater.

Lazarus pit was destoyed by Nyssa. It seems only Damien has what is left of some of the water. What is interesting also is Malcolm only took a small portion of the sand/ashes.

Is there only one? Their were multiple in the comics. Maybe Malcolm found another one? or the water is enough?

Originally posted by KingD19
Is there only one? Their were multiple in the comics. Maybe Malcolm found another one? or the water is enough?

I don't know, I hope so. I always thought the one they showed was a little lame.

Should be more like:

http://dixsgo.mywapblog.com/files/son-of-batman-3.png

I would be surprised if they used it again though. Might be testing viewers a little since its already been used twice.

Ozy. Give him prep, and he will come out on top. The dude is one of the only villains in super hero movies to actually come out on top at the end. He outsmarted every single hero whos known him personally for years, including an immortal omniscient god-like being. Savage blew up a city and beat some heroes in a physical confrontation? Ozy blew up many cities and beat an entire team in physical confrontation while outsmarting a god. Ozy did the impossible.

Savage has not shown himself to be on his level. Yet.

Why is VS vs Ozy turned into VS vs The Watchman-verse.

Also the A-B-C logic on display is giving me a headache. It's equivalent to me saying Lex could kill superman with a k-nite bomb, thus he could totally kill Spider-man with it.

Manhattan wins.

It also needs to be said Manhattan was never ever omniscient or anything like that. His vision was not absolute. If it was then he'd of known what Ozy was up to before he even came up with his plan. He'd of seen it before anything could be built to stop him or mess with his vision. He did not.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ozymandias didn't stop Manhattan per se, but was smart enough to drop billions into tachyon research in order to momentarily stop Doc's vision, smart enough to play on Manhattan's emotions(when no one else could read Manhattan); making it so Manhanntan would leave earth and smart enough to know that Manhattan would ultimately agree with what he did.

He's a supreme master of prep, the one thing he failed at was thinking Manhattan could be destroyed, but even then he had a contingency plan, his plan.

Didn't he have Manhattan helping to construct certain devices?

Let us also not pretend like the state of the world at the time didn't play into his plan, a lot of people were focused on the potential nuclear war and Ozy just took advantage of that.

Not saying he isn't smart, but there were also other factors in play that he had nothing to do with.

Originally posted by Surtur
It also needs to be said Manhattan was never ever omniscient or anything like that. His vision was not absolute. If it was then he'd of known what Ozy was up to before he even came up with his plan. He'd of seen it before anything could be built to stop him or mess with his vision. He did not.



Didn't he have Manhattan helping to construct certain devices?

Let us also not pretend like the state of the world at the time didn't play into his plan, a lot of people were focused on the potential nuclear war and Ozy just took advantage of that.

Not saying he isn't smart, but there were also other factors in play that he had nothing to do with.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. Ozy being able to outmaneuver Manhattan was due to a lot of special circumstances that are not applicable in this match.

For one, Manhattan didn't even know someone was out to get him, let alone that that someone was Ozy. Savage specifically knows he's going against Ozy.

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is what I've been trying to say all along. Ozy being able to outmaneuver Manhattan was due to a lot of special circumstances that are not applicable in this match.

For one, Manhattan didn't even know someone was out to get him, let alone that that someone was Ozy. Savage specifically knows he's going against Ozy.

Let me put it to you this way, and maybe you'll get what I'm saying. If you have them switch places and see if Vandal could do what OZY did... I would say absolutely not. That's the difference here imo.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me put it to you this way, and maybe you'll get what I'm saying. If you have them switch places and see if Vandal could do what OZY did... I would say absolutely not. That's the difference here imo.

I would say he absolutely could. As long as he has the same amount of prep that VS did, as long as VS had known Manhattan and rest of the team for as long as Ozy did, as long as VS has the exact same relationship with the rest of the team as Ozy did, and as long as he had the same resources as Ozy did.


Now let me ask you, if Ozy swapped places with VS, could you see Ozy defeating Arrow, Flash, team Arrow, Hawkgirl and Hawkman all at the same time?

That's the thing though.. part of what makes Ozy's prep for good is that he DOES have access to all that money. So why would VS have access to the same money? Same thing when they fight here... VS doesn't get access to his money and resources, he can only use his own. So I say again, VS would NOT be able to replicate what OZY did. What's more, I still don't think he could regardless

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's the thing though.. part of what makes Ozy's prep for good is that he DOES have access to all that money. So why would VS have access to the same money? Same thing when they fight here... VS doesn't get access to his money and resources, he can only use his own. So I say again, VS would NOT be able to replicate what OZY did. What's more, I still don't think he could regardless

Meh doesn't matter. Vandal Savage has quite a bit of resources himself (or at least comicbook version does anyway). So like I said, as long as he gets the same amount of prep for Manhattan and as long as he gets the same type of relationship with the Watchmen team I don't see why he couldn't do the same.

Now to my question. Do you think Ozy could have replicated what VS did on Flash/Arrow crossover? Do you think he could have taken an arrow to the chest and just plucked it out like it was nothing?

Ummm tough to say... If Ozy can catch a bullet with his teeth... I would worry about any Arrow hitting him. Let alone killing him. I think he'd take an arrow just fine. My bigger concern would be going h2h with some of the people Vandal did, especially in a group setting. That I'm not sure he could replicate. The arrow though, I'm not concerned about.

He didn't catch a bullet with his teeth. He caught a bullet from a gun that had been aimed at him for about 10-15 seconds and he had plenty of time to guess where it'd go. And Vandal is actually faster than Ozy on feats considering he had no problem fighting Flash, plus he blocked those arrows easy and only got hit to prove a point.

Ozy wouldn't be able to block arrows, bullets, and everything else coming from that massive team fighting him. Savage did though.

Originally posted by KingD19
He didn't catch a bullet with his teeth. He caught a bullet from a gun that had been aimed at him for about 10-15 seconds and he had plenty of time to guess where it'd go. And Vandal is actually faster than Ozy on feats considering he had no problem fighting Flash, plus he blocked those arrows easy and only got hit to prove a point.

Ozy wouldn't be able to block arrows, bullets, and everything else coming from that massive team fighting him. Savage did though. Ozy moved his hand after the bullet was shot and snatched it out of the air. He'd have to see the bullet to be able to do that. He didn't guess were it would go, he reacted after it was shot. And catching a bullet is a much greater feat of bullet time than dodging one.

And using that Flash logic, literally anyone who has ever punched the Flash should be faster than Ozy, and that includes Arrow, Trickster, and every other random thug to get a hit (there's been many). Doesn't that sound a bit off to you? One second the new thug of the week can beat the shit of of him. The next, he's taking out the entire League of Assassins singlehandedly. Flash constantly jobs. That doesn't mean his villains all have super speed. PIS and CIS off, VS and all those other Rogues shouldn't last 10 seconds against Barry.

And Ozy being able to replicate what VS did is a moot point (though I think he would, if not for Flash; unless Flash wants to job to him to anyway). People are arguing their prep feats. Him beating the heroes is a cool physical feat, but not much in the way of prep (its also insane BS, like Deathstroke beating the Justice League; if anything, it's a low showing for the heroes).

I'm one of the main people who complains about Flash getting tagged by everyone, as it shouldn't happen, but it does. But Vandal fought off that entire room without barely getting touched. Apparently they've made this version a lot more uber than the comic. And he's one of the few after his showings I can see actually being fast enough to tag Barry. Maybe the Hawk's energy boosts him beyond normal as well as making him immortal.

Now the Bullet feat from OZY was a timed dodged thing.... JESUS... The lowballing begins.

It needs to be said Vandal from the show isn't just an immortal. He grows more powerful each time he kills Hawkman and his wife, which he has done over 200 times. Which is why he is able to fight off the heroes in the way he did.

Originally posted by Surtur
It needs to be said Vandal from the show isn't just an immortal. He grows more powerful each time he kills Hawkman and his wife, which he has done over 200 times. Which is why he is able to fight off the heroes in the way he did.

That's what it was. Couldn't remember the exact reason he was so baws.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now the Bullet feat from OZY was a timed dodged thing.... JESUS... The lowballing begins.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
And using that Flash logic, literally anyone who has ever punched the Flash should be faster than Ozy, and that includes Arrow, Trickster, and every other random thug to get a hit (there's been many). Doesn't that sound a bit off to you? One second the new thug of the week can beat the shit of of him. The next, he's taking out the entire League of Assassins singlehandedly. Flash constantly jobs. That doesn't mean his villains all have super speed. PIS and CIS off, VS and all those other Rogues shouldn't last 10 seconds against Barry.

Would just like to point out that Barry doesn't job anywhere nearly as often in season 2, at least not so far. The times he doesn't simply blitz people on the spot and end everything right there are usually plot related. The latest episode of The Flash is a perfect example.

So is this Vandal Savage vs Ozymandias or Vandal Savage vs Dr.Manhattan?

Manhattan

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So is this Vandal Savage vs Ozymandias or Vandal Savage vs Dr.Manhattan?

Yeah, why are people including Manhattan here like he was a player?

So what is the overall thought on this? Ozy or Vandal wins?

No Manhatten is not a fighter but Ozy can use his tech.

If you're asking if Ozy has Manhattan assisting him with tech then he can probably win that scenario. But then what is more a win for Ozy and Doc, not just Ozy.

Yeah. Why not let Ozy have access to STAR Labs tech or Barry so he can just run back in time and let him try over?

So Ozy has access to outside tech and Vandal has access to... what?

Originally posted by FrothByte
So Ozy has access to outside tech and Vandal has access to... what?

His money? I'm sure he's got a lot saved up. But aside from resources and the Staff of Horus, I don't think TI gave him anything. Like I said, Ozy got a looooot of padding.

Savage spends the week hiding (he's managed to stay relatively hidden for thousands of years) and then just pitches up in the middle of the city on the day and flattens it with his staff.

They needed Hawkgirl to have some magical past life flashback in order to figure out how to properly counter the staff, which simply having Manhattan's tech won't do.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So Ozy has access to outside tech and Vandal has access to... what? They really didn't do a good job of explaining his resources did they? He'd have to have something

Originally posted by KingD19
His money? I'm sure he's got a lot saved up. But aside from resources and the Staff of Horus, I don't think TI gave him anything. Like I said, Ozy got a looooot of padding.

Look how butt hurt you are. Vandal got his staff so isn't that enough padding for Vandal. Seriously you are like a whiny kid. These are both DC Char, so it's not like I favor one more then the other, quit your constant complaining. I have favored no one in the fight.

In fact if Ozy does not have access to Manhetten tech then it would be a stomp for for Vandal. So it a least makes for good prep fight and I said a few times DM was a non combaten.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Savage spends the week hiding (he's managed to stay relatively hidden for thousands of years) and then just pitches up in the middle of the city on the day and flattens it with his staff.

They needed Hawkgirl to have some magical past life flashback in order to figure out how to properly counter the staff, which simply having Manhattan's tech won't do.

No, just no VD. Ozy could certainly figure it out all on his own. He's THAT good with prep.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, just no VD. Ozy could certainly figure it out all on his own. He's THAT good with prep.

What a compelling argument.

Clearly there are some people who think Ozy can pull this off, but I am not one of them. I personally don't feel that him spending a few years and a few billion dollars to trick an unsuspecting Manhattan and retired Watchmen crew is enough evidence to say he can figure out a way to counter Savage and his staff, considering it took some of the smartest people in the Flash/Arrowverse, outside assistance, time travel, a magical vision from Hawkgirl's first life, and then a combined effort from Oliver, Barry, Diggle, Thea, Laurel and both the Hawk people, after all the prep, to stop him from destroying Central City. And remember, Savage's interest wasn't even in destroying the city. Just killing the Hawk people. If he had wanted to destroy it from the beginning he never even would have needed to pitch up to the meeting.

If other people disagree, that's cool. They simply feel differently than I do. This type of thread is pretty much up to personal opinion and speculation, so unlikely to have any conclusive outcome in anyways.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
What a compelling argument.

The funny part is, your proposition was even worse. Yeah, he'll just wait a week and blow up the city... great plan!!!

How would Ozy find him though? It's actually a valid plan. He could just go back and forth to hotels and motels and stuff, use nothing but cash so he can't be traced. And when the day comes, just smack the staff down in his bedroom. Because it's Ozy's job to stop Vandal from blowing up the city, not the other way around, so Ozy has to do more work.

Yeah, he doesn't need to be anywhere near Ozy to blow up the city, nor does he require any prep to do it.

LMAO, Now Ozy with all his money and resources, never mind being a supreme prep master can't find Vandal in the city.... Please. If that is the plan, it's a failed one.

Why?

Originally posted by KingD19
How would Ozy find him though? It's actually a valid plan. He could just go back and forth to hotels and motels and stuff, use nothing but cash so he can't be traced. And when the day comes, just smack the staff down in his bedroom. Because it's Ozy's job to stop Vandal from blowing up the city, not the other way around, so Ozy has to do more work.

Savage is immortal so he doesn't even need to risk motels and things if really necessary. He has thousands of years of experience gathered from seemingly all over the world, so I am sure he could survive on the absolute fringes, with the bare minimum, if he needed to. He also has knowledge on Ozy here, so knows he is up against someone highly intelligent and with a lot of money to throw around. And the OP says he is coming to destroy NY, but not that he has to be there during the week of prep.