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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/10_Great_Military_Leaders

Old book, and IIRC just the author's opinon.

1. Admiral Gial Ackbar
2. Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin
3. Grand Admiral Thrawn
4. Xim the Despot
5. Admiral Firmus Nantz
6. Mandalore the Indomitable
7. Revan
8. Pers Pradeux
9. Gar Stazi
10. Gilad Pellaeon

Right off the back IDK how Tarkin is above Thrawn.

And Revan's pretty damn low.

What no Ground Commanders? Also Ackbar really that high? Ehh...not too sure on that and yeah Tarkin above Thrawn?

Snackbar in at numero uno.

Jason Fry did the Essential Guide to Warfare, so he's pretty good at this stuff.

I'd rate Gar Stazi higher- though I will note I don't think Legacy was done yet, so Stazi may not have showed his best stuff yet.

Surprised he put Tarkin so high.

Fry's Warfare guide was extremely lacking in terms of Revan knowledge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Fry's Warfare guide was extremely lacking in terms of Revan knowledge.

True. I think it was not gone into as much depth to an extent because at this point there was a fair amount of uncertain canon- like, Revan's gender hadn't been decided yet, and the KotoR comic was still coming out.

I mean, the games didn't go into a lot of detail on the warfare side of things in the Mandalorian war, and there were fewer campaigns during the war and events mentioned, most of our focused was on the Jedi/Sith side not the war side.

Nah, Revan's gender was always pretty set. Just like the Exile's. Avellone just likes to be a rebel.

/see KotOR II

Tarkin isn't above Thrawn, yeah. Also, Mandalore the Indomitable over Revan? lol

Huh, is it actually rated, or is it just, 'here are 10 I think are great, but not in a particular order'?

ok so what should the top 10 be?

it will be hard with names like thrawn, garm bel iblis, pelleaon, ackbar, revan, stazi, obi-wan & anakin, Palpatine (pretty good in his own right,IMO), t'savong lah, nas choka, tarkin

*those are just some i could think of

In the arena of pure military competency I can't fathom how anyone can possibly be over Thrawn in a list. His strategic genius is so retardedly potent that it actually destroyed him as a character.

1. Thrawn
2. Ackbar

Is something I could potentially see as a good starter. The only reason I would put Ackbar above Gar Stazi (they're really close) is because iirc Ackbar had less to work with against stronger odds. The Galactic Empire is outright the strongest military force in the mythos.

If Ackbar is solidly in 2nd then I imagine it would be between Stazi and Revan for 3rd. I'm leaning toward Stazi but that's only because Revan's strategic genius seems to be more implied ability rather than quantifiable feats. Though my only source of Revan knowledge is KOTOR, as I haven't read his novel nor played TOR.

EDIT: mmm

?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
If Ackbar is solidly in 2nd then I imagine it would be between Stazi and Revan for 3rd. I'm leaning toward Stazi but that's only because Revan's strategic genius seems to be more implied ability rather than quantifiable feats. Though my only source of Revan knowledge is KOTOR, as I haven't read his novel nor played TOR.
Revan turned a bunch of cultists, backwater pirates, and idiots into the Star Cabal Part 2, meaning infiltration of the entire galaxy. He's up there.

I'd move Thrawn above Ackbar, but yeah I think Ackbar is an amazing commander. His victory at Endor (and destruction of the Executor) is nothing short of miraculous. He was outnumbered, outgunned and faced with a superlaser picking off his capital ships, and yet still was sinking star destroyers left and right.

Throw in Pre Vizsla just cuz

You know, I don't think I'd put Thrawn at number 1, and would keep him below Ackbar.

Consider- he brilliant plucks winning strategies out of the air while examining people's art. Now, I'm sure his head is just full of tactics and battleplans while doing so, but to the outside, including his captains and commanders, it's semi-mystic. Not something they can learn from.

Thus Thrawn is a brilliant tactician and strategist, but he doesn't pass that on to anyone, and indeed, he overrules his subordinates enough that it can be a reflex to trust Thrawn's judgement rather than their own. So in the end, when he dies, the battle falls apart. Even Pallaeon, Thrawn's closest, wasn't trained to fill in the gaps and independently come to a result that, while perhaps not as good, might've done the job. Pallaeon learned some, but not as much as a guy as smart as him could've.


Compare to Ackbar, who doesn't have quite as good a spark of brilliance, but will point out what he thinks the enemy is going to do and why on a map. The result, a lot of good commanders who learned from a great commander. When he leaves, the Republic can still manage without him much better, and we see that with the Republic's rather good fleet officers in later wars.


I also wonder how well Thrawn would've done on a much larger scale. His Remnant was in a size that he could oversee many of the important battles personally, but when you get larger, like if he'd absorbed the other warlords, you have to let other people handle other fronts and even make strategic decisions. He might've found himself in a position where wherever Thrawn is is doing great, but everywhere else is faltering because the lower commanders aren't as good as the ones who learned under Ackbar, because when the going get tough, their instinct is to look to Thrawn.


Just as Emperor Palpatine made himself a political linchpin, so too was Thrawn a different type of linchpin. While it helps him pull off his magic, it's a liability.


And then I'll toss in both Revan and Gar Stazi were 'teach the subordinates how to do their thing' types too. Revan's Empire obviously kept trucking without him, his commanders had learned well, and we see Stazi's subordinates pick up on his tactics when he was disabled (and indeed, he considers them quite able to carry on if he were to fall).

Thrawn's definitely the best military tactician, but I'm sympathetic to Q's appeal for ackbar.

Buh-buh-but Grievous!

I'd put Grievous above Revan, but nowhere near Thrawn.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd put Grievous above Revan, but nowhere near Thrawn.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd put Grievous above Revan
http://static2.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/112/1127413/2587842-laugh.gif

"Drown them in B1s."-Sidious
"What he said, but also send B2s!"-Dooku
"Rawr! Grrrr! RARRRRWARWR!"-Grievous.

Grievous is a brilliant naval strategist and a master of psychological warfare.

So is Revan.

Just better at both.

A lot better.

Originally posted by ILS

You disgust me, old man.

Kek

Revan is a nautical mile above Grievous. But only as his pre-brain damage self. Post bumping his head he's fairly well established as an utter buffoon.

The Revan we never saw but heard of was indeed pretty sharp.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
What no Ground Commanders? Also Ackbar really that high? Ehh...not too sure on that and yeah Tarkin above Thrawn?

Ackbar was known as a protege when the Rebel Alliance set out to recruit him.

Thrawn is actually #1 though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Revan we never saw but heard of was indeed pretty sharp.
So Revan needs his own TV show where he's being outsmarted by Ahsoka Tano and bested by gungans to top the General? mmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
Post bumping his head he's fairly well established as an utter buffoon.
Eh, the Order of Revan (and the Rishi plot) was pretty damn impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So Revan needed his own TV show where he's being outsmarted by Ahsoka Tano and bested by gungans? mmm

Eh, the Order of Revan (and the Rishi plot) was pretty damn impressive.

I thought we're taking all these commanders at their best? So I assume we're using memory loss Revan too then? :P

Except those are practically two entirely different characters until he regained his memories.

Grievous and Grievous are the same.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except those are practically two entirely different characters until he regained his memories.

Grievous and Grievous are the same.

Grievous as he's described in the RotS and LoE novelizations and how he was shown in the 2003 cartoon and comics are similar to canon Grievous?

They're completely different! Regardless if we are using composite Grievous wouldn't we take the his best showings into account? If he was as piss poor of a commander as he was in TCW and then went on to be a calculating general that won thousands of battles we'd take his later showings into account over the earlier ones.

I'm sure Revan has plenty of embarrassing blunders throughout his career, you're just the only one that knows about them. xD

It's called experience and inconsistency. BTW, chill, it was a joke to Temp. God damn.

--- --- ---

Everyone's well aware of Revan's main one:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4512732-0477831703-ezgif.gif

t;dr: Revan was outsmarted by two Gamorreans and stood there while a bomb timer went down out loud.

However, his career as a Darth was that of virtual perfection right until that final battle with Bastila Shan.

The fact he eliminated the Mandalorians as a galactic power from all of history surpasses anything Grievous' done.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's called experience and inconsistency. BTW, chill, it was a joke to Temp. God damn.

--- --- ---

Everyone's well aware of Revan's main one:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4512732-0477831703-ezgif.gif

t;dr: Revan was outsmarted by two Gamorreans and stood there while a bomb timer went down out loud.

However, his career as a Darth was that of virtual perfection right until that final battle with Bastila Shan.

The fact he eliminated the Mandalorians as a galactic power from all of history surpasses anything Grievous' done.

*Shrug*

Personally I see them as being pretty close. Grievous won thousands of battles for the CIS despite having inferior troops. His mere presence turned the tide of engagements ( and he didn't have to rely on battle meditation ). Is Revan a skilled tactician/strategist? Probably. How many of his victories were attributed to a combination of his charisma, battle meditation, his skills as a warrior and having the people's support though? We don't know.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Grievous won thousands of battles for the CIS despite having inferior troops.
Source? And he generally had a hell of a lot more of them.

Originally posted by Syndicate
His mere presence turned the tide of engagements
Uh, so did Revan's. Look at the Battle of Duro and Malachor V.

Originally posted by Syndicate
( and he didn't have to rely on battle meditation ).
Revan didn't either. Not sure what the hell you're referring to.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Is Revan a skilled tactician/strategist? Probably.
Undeniably.

Originally posted by Syndicate
How many of his victories were attributed to a combination of his charisma, battle meditation, his skills as a warrior and having the people's support though? We don't know.
Again, Revan didn't use Battle Meditation during any part of his conquering career.

And uh, there's literally maps of the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil Wars. We know which worlds he conquered, etc. etc.

http://www.mandayaim.com/mme/wojny_mando/Mandalorians_wars_map.jpg & http://i57.tinypic.com/2ef59nb.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Source? And he generally had a hell of a lot more of them.


Uh, so did Revan's. Look at the Battle of Duro and Malachor V.


Revan didn't either. Not sure what the hell you're referring to.


Undeniably.


Again, Revan didn't use Battle Meditation during any part of his conquering career.

And uh, there's literally maps of the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil Wars. We know which worlds he conquered, etc. etc.

http://www.mandayaim.com/mme/wojny_mando/Mandalorians_wars_map.jpg & http://i57.tinypic.com/2ef59nb.jpg

Generally it can be assumed given his tenure as the CIS's commander but let me find you a quote.

Assumed Revan used Battle Meditation before that point. Ah well the other things I said can still be applied.

And it can't be assumed by Revan? He literally conquered hundreds and hundreds of worlds with only two defeats.

The first being against Cassus Fett himself at Battle of Jaga's Cluster, where Fett literally boarded Revan's admiral's ship and killed him. And the battle had no impact on the actual course of the war.

And the second was when he was ambushed by Bastila Shan's strike team and betrayed by Darth Malak. Based on what we know about Revan and how his win-record is absurd, he'd probably have won.

There was literally no possible way for Revan to use Battle Meditation. Bastila Shan joined his empire only following his redemption.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And it can't be assumed by Revan? He literally conquered hundreds and hundreds of worlds with only two defeats.

The first being against Cassus Fett himself at Battle of Jaga's Cluster, where Fett literally boarded Revan's admiral's ship and killed him. And the battle had no impact on the actual course of the war.

And the second was when he was ambushed by Bastila Shan's strike team and betrayed by Darth Malak. Based on what we know about Revan and how his win-record is absurd, he'd probably have won.

There was literally no possible way for Revan to use Battle Meditation. Bastila Shan joined his empire only following his redemption.

It can be I'm just saying Grievous at his best and Revan at his best are at least comparable.

I thought it said in your respect thread he knew how to use Battle Meditation?

No.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/? Where?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/? Where?

Hmmm. I must have read that from somewhere else or just assumed he had it. Sorry about that.

Let's be real. Revan is next-level tier mary sue. People are willingly to destroy their home planets for him. Commit treason. Convince you that any battle could be won if you just did whatever retarded thing he told you to do, like mash yourself and your entire fleet into the surface of a dead world. He's seen entire wars in advance. He turned the shambled militia that the Republic called a navy into galactic fleet that was not only able to combat the Mandalorians, but go further into the Unknown Regions than the Republic has ever been. Half a person, and completely insane, he was able to outsmart the entire galaxy using backwater cultists and pirates, as well as convince a huge portion of the Republic and even the Sith Empire that committing ritualistic suicide was somehow a good idea. How is Grievous comparable to Revan in strategy or psychological warfare? Like in any way?

Tbh Fresh, when you put it like that, Revan as a character is pretty stupid and was just able to do shit because....reasons.

That's the point, Fresh. He's not.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is Grievous comparable to Revan in strategy or psychological warfare? Like in any way?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Rawr! Grrrr! RARRRRWARWR!"-Grievous.

TBF, Grievous was decent as a tactician. Trying to compare him to Revan is just wrong tho. It's the equivalent of comparing Bane to Sidious. Malak is a much better comparison for Grievous.

Ant will get it

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh Fresh, when you put it like that, Revan as a character is pretty stupid and was just able to do shit because....reasons.
Don't even get me started on KotOR Revan.

"You, this droid, and me, Bastila. We can take on all the Sith in that tower."
"Training me might mean Revan will come back? Well that isn't weird at all."
"So I've been here a week, and now I'm the Jedi's only hope? And I have these dreams from nowhere? Seems legit."

"This computer recognizes me. And it's for a Star Map. That I saw in a vision. Of Revan. Nope. Seems normal."
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4512732-0477831703-ezgif.gif

"Malak kicked my ass a month ago, but I think I might be ready now even with Bastila helping and him having an amp this time."
"I was right."

And KotOR II Revan was even worse:

"Revan made you believe he could do anything."
"Revan was able to torture Jedi into loving him even more."
"We don't give a shit about Sith or Jedi. Those are just religions. I mean except Revan."
"Revan is the Force, and you are shit."
"Revan taught me that normal people matter too, which is why I think I matter less than him."
"Revan was like Jesus, if Jesus was a kickass Sith Lord that I wanted to have sex with."
"Revan was beyond all his masters, and he learned Sith teachings from nowhere. True story."
"Revan was secretly testing the Republic, btw, trufax."
"The Jedi are awful, but Revan isn't."


It was like going from powertrip and duh moments to absolute fellatio. Which is why I play the Enemy Within every week. Because me and 7 of my closest friends get to help Revan commit suicide over and over and over and over and over again.

I laughed longer and harder than I should have.

BTW Freshest you got two bio-worthy posts in under an hour.

Congrats.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
"Drown them in B1s."-Sidious
"What he said, but also send B2s!"-Dooku
"Rawr! Grrrr! RARRRRWARWR!"-Grievous.


I will say Grievous did his job well- namely, extend the war, preserve the bulk of CIS forces, and thus increase the political pressure on the Republic and give Dooku room to talk more worlds/strongarm more worlds into switching sides.



His forces were cheap, but squishy. Large head-on fights would be bad, because if most of the CIS forces were gone, even temporarily, so would go the strongarm threats and it'd be too easy to strike at their manufacturing centers. Long term attrition warfare, where he gets and inflicts casualties that are counteracted by a steady stream of new droids on his side but results in lost lives on the other, is a sensible strategy.


Originally posted by Zenwolf
What no Ground Commanders? Also Ackbar really that high? Ehh...not too sure on that and yeah Tarkin above Thrawn?

Mandalore's a ground commander.

Frankly, the Mandalores and Vong warlords and Jedi/Sith are the only major ground commanders we know, we almost exclusively follow space commanders outside of them, because most of the time they're at the top of the command hierarchy and space command is more important.

Originally posted by Q99




Mandalore's a ground commander.

Frankly, the Mandalores and Vong warlords and Jedi/Sith are the only major ground commanders we know, we almost exclusively follow space commanders outside of them, because most of the time they're at the top of the command hierarchy and space command is more important.

Yeah, but also a space one. :P

Also Veers? Rieekan? Madine?

But granted, space battles do seem to take precedence over ground ones. But eh....I like ground battles moreso I suppose.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Also Veers? Rieekan? Madine?
These guys aren't fit to be Thrawn/Revan's bathroom crew, rofl.

1.Thrawn.
2.B'wuatu.
3.Vader.*
4.Ackbar.
5.Pallaeon.

*Ackbar genuinely stated that Vader would have kicked his ass at Endor if he'd been on the Executor.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.Thrawn.
2.B'wuatu.
3.Vader.*
4.Ackbar.
5.Pallaeon.

*Ackbar genuinely stated that Vader would have kicked his ass at Endor if he'd been on the Executor.
The double-standards are so strong I can ****ing tangibly touch it.

http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/17/73/92/12/doubld10.png

Originally posted by Q99
I will say Grievous did his job well- namely, extend the war, preserve the bulk of CIS forces, and thus increase the political pressure on the Republic and give Dooku room to talk more worlds/strongarm more worlds into switching sides.

Except it's a fact that Palpatine orchestrated battles to make the Jedi, Anakin, look good and the still allow the Separatists to survive. He controlled both sides of the war, so saying "One side was so good at doing this," will never and can never be true.

Which then begs the question, just how good were both sides if it was all just one big farce and things were altered in favor?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except it's a fact that Palpatine orchestrated battles to make the Jedi, Anakin, look good and the still allow the Separatists to survive. He controlled both sides of the war, so saying "One side was so good at doing this," will never and can never be true. Not too mention that he wasn't the only commander involved- in fact not even doing the bulk of the commanding. He was the highest ranked commander on the CIS side under Dooku yes (and Palpatine I guess), but there were scores of other generals handling the day-to-day fighting on the front, with only general/broad orders coming down the line from Dooku, Grievous and co.

Add to that how much of the logistical complexity is taken out of commanding a near-infinite amount of troops that never go hungry, get sick, run out of stamina or get demoralized and alot of the general impressiveness of his accolades (which frankly are far and between anyway) kind of get the wind knocked out of them, compared to the other commanders on this list.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The double-standards are so strong I can ****ing tangibly touch it.

http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/17/73/92/12/doubld10.png

Nobody wants to see your low rez monitor.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah, but also a space one. :P

Also Veers? Rieekan? Madine?

But granted, space battles do seem to take precedence over ground ones. But eh....I like ground battles moreso I suppose.

We know some names, but generally not a lot of the battles (With Veers, don't we only know one he lead?). Not to the extent we know the space leaders.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except it's a fact that Palpatine orchestrated battles to make the Jedi, Anakin, look good and the still allow the Separatists to survive. He controlled both sides of the war, so saying "One side was so good at doing this," will never and can never be true.


Sure, Sidious did orchestrate things. That doesn't change that having force users v the enemy's no force users is a major advantage- and Sidious's manipulations certainly hurt the Jedi more than they helped, as upping their casualties was a primary goal. And he had the shadow of the darkside to lessen the effect of their foresight.

Heck, force users were a major advantage in the *Vong* war and they're force-resistant.

The advantage of their presence is overstated. 200+ Jedi including the second strongest Jedi in the entire order got their asses soundly kicked by a pure infantry force using small arms weaponry. The Jedi were a definite boon, but not to the level that their presence should have really hindered the CIS. There just weren't enough of them. And for that matter Greivous' plans get thwarted by Jedi the majority of the time that he encounters them, so it's not as if it can be claimed that he was regularly outwitting them in the first place.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Not as much of an advantage as to be exceptionally noticeable, though. 200+ Jedi including the second strongest Jedi in the entire order got their asses soundly kicked by a pure infantry force using small arms weaponry.


I'm going to note, I have never been able to find a source for the the number of Jedi casualties, and I've checked.


And that's a group of Jedi walking right into a killzone trap, it'd be quite difficult to set up a better scenario, and it was not long at all before Jedi began acting in a way that was much more effective, leading raids and such.

This is Luke, Rebel Veteran, Mara Jade, assassin, and whoever they can recruit and train- certainly including Kyle Katarn, commando, and Corran Horn, former police/pilot. Anyone they train will not be unschooled in the arts of war or commando raids. Most recruits are likely to be vets themselves, but certainly apprentices under veterans.

Originally posted by Q99

Sure, Sidious did orchestrate things. That doesn't change that having force users v the enemy's no force users is a major advantage- and Sidious's manipulations certainly hurt the Jedi more than they helped, as upping their casualties was a primary goal. And he had the shadow of the darkside to lessen the effect of their foresight.

Uh, why? There was never a time, in canon, or during the PT, where there were more than 10,000 Jedi Knights, and they served primarily as generals. Second, your last point only makes the first point stronger, as this debate is about how great Grievous is, not random Jedi. Either way, the goal wasn't to kill tons of Jedi in the war. The goal was the make them look bad and Anakin look good. Killing them would be counter-productive before Order 66.

Even during the Mandalorian Wars it wasn't the fact that the Jedi were fighting the Mandalorians that ensured their victory, it was the fact that someone was finally able to get the Republic army to actually be an army. Being able to have see the future, occasionally at that, doesn't win wars.

No. No they weren't. The fact that Luke, Jacen, and etc were there to chop of the snake's head was an advantage. Random Jedi never would have been because there are simply too few of them.

lol @ the idea that killing Jedi wasn't a primary goal of the Clone Wars and that Sheev was saving all of them for Order 66.

Dooku flat out tells Grievous in "Lair of Grievous" that "Lord Sidious demands more dramatic results... More dead Jedi."

Originally posted by Aurbere
TBF, Grievous was decent as a tactician. Trying to compare him to Revan is just wrong tho. It's the equivalent of comparing Bane to Sidious. Malak is a much better comparison for Grievous.

Ant will get it

Absolutely not. Malak bombed Taris into the dirt and dreamed of doing the same to the Core Worlds. Grievous did it to the core worlds. Grievous was so terrifying that he made the citizens of the galaxy willingly transition into an Empire in order to prevent something like him from happening again.

Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol @ the idea that killing Jedi wasn't a primary goal of the Clone Wars and that Sheev was saving all of them for Order 66.

Dooku flat out tells Grievous in "Lair of Grievous" that "Lord Sidious demands more dramatic results... More dead Jedi."
And Force and destiny says the primary goal was to expose terrible Jedi by making them lose critical battles. So, meh. The fact that he wants more dead Jedi doesn't make it a primary goal even by the most lose definitions of the word.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?

And Force and destiny says the primary goal was to expose terrible Jedi by making them lose critical battles. So, meh. The fact that he wants more dead Jedi doesn't make it a primary goal even by the most lose definitions of the word.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Humbarine

Is this serious? Grievous bombed Humbarine a core world founder, an ancient ecumenopolis, into a molten slag. He also conquered dozens of other core worlds including the entire Humbarine sector.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Operation_Durge%27s_Lance

Operation Durge's Lance had the Republic terrified.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?

And Force and destiny says the primary goal was to expose terrible Jedi by making them lose critical battles. So, meh. The fact that he wants more dead Jedi doesn't make it a primary goal even by the most lose definitions of the word.

You're overcomplicating it. The war achieves multiple goals: it kills Jedi, it discredits Jedi, it frightens and exhausts the galactic citizenry and legislature into surrendering more of its trust and freedom to the Chancellor, etc. all of which have been discussed at length since 2002.

Q is right: a primary element of the war was that it killed Jedi. Obviously Sidious wants as many of them dead as is possible, since they are by far the biggest threat to his designs.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Humbarine

Is this serious? Grievous bombed Humbarine a core world founder, an ancient ecumenopolis, into a molten slag. He also conquered dozens of other core worlds including the entire Humbarine sector.

And while the bombing of Telos was a crippling blow, as seen in KotOR II, the bombing of Humbarine recovered in two decades. Taris remains a crater thousands of years later. Saying, "Grievous also bombarded a planet," doesn't make the situations comparable. Second, you're still ignoring the nature of the Clone Wars makes it vastly different from the Jedi Civil War.

And?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're overcomplicating it. The war achieves multiple goals: it kills Jedi, it discredits Jedi, it frightens and exhausts the galactic citizenry and legislature into surrendering more of its trust and freedom to the Chancellor, etc. all of which have been discussed at length since 2002.

Q is right: a primary element of the war was that it killed Jedi. Obviously Sidious wants as many of them dead as is possible, since they are by far the biggest threat to his designs.
You're a smart guy, Tempest, so I know I don't need to define what the word primary means. Saying, "obviously this must be the primary goal because it's a convenient side," isn't evidence of something being a primary goal, whereas someone flat out saying something is a primary goal make it a primary goal. The fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi at the beginning and 10,000 Jedi at the end is telling. It's not a "primary goal."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're a smart guy, Tempest, so I know I don't need to define what the word primary means. Saying, "obviously this must be the primary goal because it's a convenient side," isn't evidence of something being a primary goal, whereas someone flat out saying something is a primary goal make it a primary goal. The fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi at the beginning and 10,000 Jedi at the end is telling. It's not a "primary goal."

Thanks. And while you're not as smart as me, you're pretty sharp too. So reminding you that Q saying killing Jedi is "A" primary goal of the war isn't precluded by you introducing another primary goal is probably a waste of time. Likewise, I'm sure that you don't need to be told that Dooku relaying Sidious's explicit demands to Grievous for more dead Jedi is kind of a big deal and indicative of a high priority. Lastly, I'm sure I don't need to tell someone as smart as you that someone as smart as Sidious would want as many of his ten thousand superhero enemies as dead as possible as quickly and conveniently as possible.

So I can only assume this otherwise unnecessary conversation is just silly chitchat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Absolutely not. Malak bombed Taris into the dirt and dreamed of doing the same to the Core Worlds. Grievous did it to the core worlds. Grievous was so terrifying that he made the citizens of the galaxy willingly transition into an Empire in order to prevent something like him from happening again.
Dude, Aurbere was trolling.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And while the bombing of Telos was a crippling blow, as seen in KotOR II, the bombing of Humbarine recovered in two decades. Taris remains a crater thousands of years later. Saying, "Grievous also bombarded a planet," doesn't make the situations comparable. Second, you're still ignoring the nature of the Clone Wars makes it vastly different from the Jedi Civil War. /QUOTE]

What are you talking about lol? I mean like this post doesn't make any sense. And Humbarine was reduced to a "molten slag"...it was ****ed up far more than Taris.

The Battle of Humbarine was significant because it was a critical Republic world sporting its own powerful defense fleet.



Lol my post was a joke. Thus the 'Grievous does what Malak dreams of doing'

I'm not going to argue semantics with you, Tempest. Fact is, if he wanted them dead, "as soon as possible," he would have done that when the Clone Wars began, instead of allowing them to constantly recover. You can ignore that all you want, but he obviously wasn't trying to kill the Jedi with the Clone Wars, even if he prefered more of them die in it. It's not a primary goal.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
What are you talking about lol? I mean like this post doesn't make any sense. And Humbarine was reduced to a "molten slag"...it was ****ed up far more than Taris.
Saying that Grievous did what Malak wished he could do is erroneous because their situations aren't even comparable. More so, the fact that you think a planet that was able to be resettled in a little over 20 years is comparable to a planet that was never able to be settled again is retarded. And Humbarine obvious didn't literally turn to molten slag. Why would you ever believe it was?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not going to argue semantics with you, Tempest.

Given your record, I can't say as I blame you.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Fact is, if he wanted them dead, "as soon as possible," he would have done that when the Clone Wars began, instead of allowing them to constantly recover. You can ignore that all you want, but he obviously wasn't trying to kill the Jedi with the Clone Wars, even if he prefered more of them die in it. It's not a primary goal.

Fact is, he might have done just that... If he didn't also have other important goals to accomplish as well. Fact is, killing Jedi was indeed a primary goal of the Clone Wars, it just wasn't the only one. Not that hard.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm going to note, I have never been able to find a source for the the number of Jedi casualties, and I've checked.


And that's a group of Jedi walking right into a killzone trap, it'd be quite difficult to set up a better scenario, and it was not long at all before Jedi began acting in a way that was much more effective, leading raids and such. Okay. How does this address any of the points I've made to you over the last two pages?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given your record, I can't say as I blame you.

You mean you plugging your ears and saying, "No, no, no, because I'm Tempest,"? Yeah. it's basically a waste of everyone's time discussing just about anything with you.

Primary
-of chief importance; principal

The primary goal of the Clone Wars, especially for the the first two years or so, is in no way shape or form killing Jedi. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to designed the Republic Military to do it at the very end of the war, a war he didn't need to last three years. It's retarded as **** to think something can be "primary" and still secondary in importance.

Too easy.

>implying I'm arguing with you and not just continuing a pointless conversation for the hell of it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself, champ. You're an addict. You just can't quit me.

I will admit that I find your posting style mildly entertaining, but you're far from all that powerful. Quan and redpill rule these forums now, and you're just a shell of what you once were.

Nonsense and poppycock. Like the others, you zealously crave my attention. That's why, though beaten and prideful, you ultimately slithered back into this thread and sought me out. You fear and love me, covet and despise me. Yours is an Oedipal affliction.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Okay. How does this address any of the points I've made to you over the last two pages?

Well, you posted that the usefulness of Jedi is 'overstated,' citing Geonosis.

In response, I pointed out how Geonosis was atypical and possibly the worst tactical thing they could do (because those Jedi in specific had never fought a war), and it doesn't say much on their usefulness to war efforts in general that they can take casualties if they walk into a worst case scenario.


Originally posted by FreshestSlice

No. No they weren't. The fact that Luke, Jacen, and etc were there to chop of the snake's head was an advantage. Random Jedi never would have been because there are simply too few of them.


I'll note that until his last stand, Ganner Rhysode was a 'random Jedi,' not even a master, and not an experienced knight at the start of the war (though he had a fair amount of experience by the time he went down).

Finn Galfridian (a padawan!) helped uncover the Vong infiltrators on Coruscant.

And of course, there's squadrons of Jedi Fighters, and a squadron of even lesser Jedi makes for a very elite force. Shadow bombs did a fair amount of damage to Vong ships.

To go to the Clone Wars, the Jedi struck at shipyards like Gwori, a pretty strategically useful thing, and a bunch of Jedi broke the siege of the CIS's attempt to get a clone army going.


Sure, strong Jedi are best for contributing during a war... and of course, there *are* strong Jedi... but other force users are still useful.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Saying that Grievous did what Malak wished he could do is erroneous because their situations aren't even comparable. More so, the fact that you think a planet that was able to be resettled in a little over 20 years is comparable to a planet that was never able to be settled again is retarded. And Humbarine obvious didn't literally turn to molten slag. Why would you ever believe it was?

How do you figure? Malak and his fleet had presence at Corellia and several other core worlds and yet never could mount a proper invasion. Its not retarded Humbarine was an active CORE WORLD, of course way more resources could be devoted to rebuilding it than a backwater like Taris that was on the decline and becoming less and less relevant anyway. Shit, even Telos had a massive orbital station that made large sectors of it habitable a couple of years after. Taris wasn't rebuilt because no one gave a shit about Taris, I don't even think it was a Republic member world.

And ICS explicitly states that Grievous conducted an "hour long bombardment that turned it into a molten slag".

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/fact%20file%20sith%20goals_zps8behlxlc.png

- Fact File #6

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Too easy.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/10_Great_Military_Leaders

Old book, and IIRC just the author's opinon.

1. Admiral Gial Ackbar
2. Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin
3. Grand Admiral Thrawn
4. Xim the Despot
5. Admiral Firmus Nantz
6. Mandalore the Indomitable
7. Revan
8. Pers Pradeux
9. Gar Stazi
10. Gilad Pellaeon

Right off the back IDK how Tarkin is above Thrawn.

And Revan's pretty damn low.

Revan beaten teh next mandalore + Cassuus fett, compared to that The previous mandalore would get his beaten by Revan armed with a toothpick. And is as much inspiring.
What Admiral thrawn as to say about the deathstar...
Admliral ackbard first for saying : IT'S A TRAP !!!!!! ha fan service...