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I don't think so!

At least, there are two

one: where every one lives, where they go to "fight"
two: where they think that they are free

If not, how do you explain the end ?
Neo stoping medusas
Smith inside a human "head" ?
Mmmmmhhhhh

A little stupid, but the best explanation, right ?

yeas..this has been discussed. Personally i think there aren't two. But i can't explain neo's doing.
If there were two..why should the machines bother destroying zion 6 times already and loosing 250 000 batteries every time?

only 1 matrix. has to do with smith, part of him came off onto Neo and part of Neo onto him. that explains why the "human" smith was the only survivor from the counter-attack

Doesn't explain how Neo stopped the sentinels

I think there are 4 matrices.

http://forums.killermovies.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6044&perpage=15&pagenumber=7

At the bottom of the page was my best guess for the ending.

What i meant to say, Tex, is that just as Bane was unconcious and the only survivor of a massive sentinal attack, Neo too was in that same condition. Why of all people would only Bane survive? The answer is because he has been over taken by Smith. Smith/Bane stopped the sentinals that threatened him, just as Neo had stopped the Sentinals that threatened him, Trinity, Morpheus, and Link. Smith and Neo have a very strong connection between them. I'm sure we'll get to find out what it is in the next movie.

I WANT ANWSERS NOW!

I agree with Killerarg, but I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't another level of the matrix.
I think some fans of the Matrix movies won't be happy with the answers when they get them.

1 Matrix but Zion is within the Matrix

The answer to your quesetion Dexx, is in the architects conversation with neo. He said that 99 % of subjects accepted the Oracle's 'choice program' The other that didnt accept it needed to be removed form the Matrix to prevent them making things worse.

The theory goes that those that didnt accept the 'choice program' were removed and placed in zion thinking that they were free and that they were out of the matrix so their minds were no longer a threat to the first Matrix. The architect also implies that this is cylical and has happened 6 times before, ie that the choice program is flawed and there will always be 1% rejection.... hence Zion was setup within the Matrix to 'quarentine' these people.

My 2 cents ...

Smtih being in the real world has absolutely nothing to do with Matrices within Matrices- it can easily be explained without the need for such things, as has been done elsewhere.

If Zion were part of the Matrix then the humans there would not have ACTUALLY had the choice that is vital for the Matrix to survive. It is not in it, the real world is real, and Neo stopping the sentinels is merely the third in a line of impossible things Neo has done.

Maybe Zion is a matrix because both Neo and Bane were in some 'unknown' coma after being affected by EMP - indicating that they are some sort of electronic program/machine.

I'm agrre with nopy, there are two matrix. Otherwise there is not sence to kill the Matrix source. What is the unplug all the humans at the same time?, every one will be killed or awaked. There is not enough food and place for every one, in case they keep alive.

I guess the world as we know is still out there and the machines are not as threafull as they are in the Matriz or Zion. So, on the liberation day, they will awake in the real and intact world... or what about if they allways have lived in the Matrix and there is not such world...

Two leveled Matrix is interesting thing, as it is compatible with story of rebuilding Zion (otherwise it would be stupid). Also it is great explanitaion how Oracle can pridict things, although they are dependent on the 2nd (whatever iti is)l world events.

Still I don't find any guarantees that the Architect is not lying about Neo v6. I regard that as some kind of system protection. Just like agents. Agents were there two physicaly stop Neo, and now new obstacles should make human stop believing (well they partially succed - Neo and Morpheus are despered after he came back from Matrix)

Also, Neo has no purpose in a circulated Matrix. People rebel even without him - actually it is not that he found someone, but he was found, also almost noone believe in him

Re-building Zion in the real world is not stupid at all.

The idea that is now going around that part of Neo's mind remained in the Source may also obviate the need for Matrices within Matrices. If part of Neo is still in the machine's mainframe then he would be able to affaect the Sentinels.

umm..no, that doesn't seem to be the answer to my question at all, nopy.
If Zion is within a matrix, they don't seem to not be accepting the program. So they're not making things worse for the system.
So the machines are destroying the city, with it's enhabitans, their ..'fuel'...REASONLESS... Just to respect some routine?

Indeed, the idea Zion is another Matrix is exceedingly tenuous.

Right, from now on ALL talk on this subject goes here, not spread across half a dozen other threads.

I agree with Nopy.
I can't wait to see who's wrong.

How would making them think they were out of the Matrix help? They would still subconciously reject the programme and cause it to crash. Only their ACTUAL removal would work as a form of quarantine.

First of all: hi there!

I'd guess Zion represents the choice which has to be in the Matrix for people to accept it. Blue - Red: stay - leave.

It has to be one big Matrix. Even if there still is a part of Neo in the Mainframe, how would he be able to communicate with it when he is supposed to be outside the Matrix?

Neo is the one who is going to figure out they're still plugged in.

All IMHO of course

But it ISN'T a choice. The choice isn't about being free or not, it is about beiong in the Matrix or not from an objective sense. It is no point you saying the ones in Zion THINK they are free so therefore the choice is made. The ones in the Matrix THINK they are free as well.

The POINT is that the humans subconciously realise they are not in the real world, regardless of what they consciously think. So putting them into a simulated Zion makes no difference. They have to be not in any form of computer Matrix at all.

Neo does not necessarily have to be communicating for the part of humself in the Matrix for it to be useful to him.

Good point Ush, I will elaborate by saying that Neo said it was "different" he could "feel" them. So obviously being that close to the source changed him and the code he carries.

Bane/Smith was not the last survivor of Zion he was the last survivor of the counter strike that Locke planned to stop the sentinels from digging.

I'm with ya Ush, as well as some others. I don't think there is more than one matrix. Zion is the real world. I can't explain exactly how Neo stopped the sentinels but it has something to do with his trip to the source and his encounters with Smith where they rubbed off part of themselves on eachother.

I like this part. But I'm not convinced yet. My problem is this...



Please explain?

I like this a lot. It could explain the coma Neo is in...

I have to see the movie again. How did the transition take place (back to the ship) after Neo saved Trinity? I can't remember.

There really wasn't a transition they cut from the scence where Noe saves Trinity to the scene with the crew of the Neb talking in the kitchen of the Neb.

Cheers! That's a lot of options then.

But what if Neo's world is the new Matrix? The crew of the Neb could enter it, right? It doesn't fit.

Another small prob: the reboot with Neo's code was only supposed happen if Neo left using the other door...

Why does everyone keep saying that Neo and the Smith-human are the only survivors?
If they are the only survivors then who put them in the medical room beds?
The attack on Zion has just started, it has not been destoryed it's is set to be destroyed in the next film, quote "we have 24 hours to save Zion".

I dunno, some people seem to think that everything was going to blow up in moments after he went to get Trinity.

I think that that there might be 2 levels of the matrix this is just a thoery though , The Matrix is the 1st level it is where the Humans are kept and are happy not knowing what they are being used for, teh 2nd level the real world, they are "not" infact free from the matrix however, they have freedom to go in and out of teh Matrix and have some control over it.
SO in other words the Machines Have to real world so they can control teh Humans and teh Humans have the matrix so that they get control over soemthing.
Also they have accepted The Real World as teh Real World because they think they are free

Or another theory is the Reloaded theory which i think is better than my one above

Yes I agree with that but Zion hasn'r been destroyed whether it is in a second Matrix or not.

I think Zion is not in the Matrix. It is in the real world. I do not think that NEO used a EMP to stop the sentinels, the effects used do not coincide with the effects used from the first movie for an EMP. I am not sure about what he did though. I do think that the architect lied to Neo in order to destroy his self confidence. If Neo doesn't believe he is the one then he isn't the one.

Neo and Bane (Smith-human) were the only two survivors of the first attack against the machines. The commander was planning a counter-attack against the sentinals, but an EMP was discharged before all the ships got out of range of one another EMP radius, causing 5 ships to die immediately. (Bane was the one to discharge the EMP). After that, all went into chaos, and the sentinals slaughtered the ships. That counter-attack, which failed horrendously, had only one surivivor, Bane. He was unconscious when they found him, and put him on the medical bed. When the Neb was attacked, Neo stopped the sentinals somehow (EMP? don't know. but he did it somehow) and he too became unconscious. By only two survivors, I don't mean of the entire world, or entire matrix, but just the only two survivors of the first attack against the machines

Good analysis Tevesh. That was my interpretation of it as well..

I posted the stuff below over in another thread also but I think it's relevant here also:

>> At the end of the Movie, Neo says "something's different - I can feel them" about the Sentinels. Then he goes on to stop them just like he can with bullets inside the Matrix. To me, this suggests one of the following:

1. The world "outside the Matrix", i.e. the tunnels, Zion, everything that (up to now) we thought was "Real" is actually some sort of additional part of the Matrix / another layer / whatever....

Or...

2. Neo has gained some kind of real-world power as "The One" to be able to stop the Sentinels but the shock of this realisation was so great it knocked him into a coma.....

Or...

3. They've all been duped and the Matrix has tricked them into thinking they've jacked out after Neo saved Trinity but they're actually still in a "Reloaded" version that now includes a virtual world complete with a fake Zion / tunnel system / sentinels etc....

Finally, could it be possible that whilst both Neo and Smith/Bane appear to be unconscious that they are actually now disconnected from the system and in another "realm" which could be revealed in the final movie? Perhaps the scene of the fight between them that was hinted at in the trailer?

And as been pointed out muchly before, the computer game tells us that part of Neo remained inside the Matrix, this is far more likely to be part of the explanation.

Ushgarak, haven't played the game - only seen the movie hence the 3 options.... However, If it was the case, wouldn't Neo realise this straightaway?

Apparently- no. There you go.

Actually Im glad that ush is in the conversation. Simply for the fact that he seems to bring a more sublime look at things. I'm a big time matrix fan and I need a few counterpoints to bring me back to reality. Lord knows I might end up like some crazy dude shooting up the seven eleven because "I'm in the matrix".

Ok this is really aggrevating.here's my long ass interpertation of what the hell went on.

I'd like to start off by saying, I didn't catch the fact that Neo's mind stayed back with the source. But even if it did, and that's how he stopped the sentinals, how does that explain why the hacker infected by smith, bane, survive the sentinal slaughter?

There is only ONE MATRIX, because:

1) The Architect said that 99% of the people accepted the matrix's programming because while consciously they believed that they had choice, subconsciously they did not. This 1% of people have been and are eligible to leave the matrix by the so called "rebels" who were first freed by one of Neo's predecessors. The 23 people that the previous "ones" freed were the beginning of the New Zion. They went on to free more and more people until finally and singular anamolaic entity (the one) was found. The Architect said himself (go to another thread if you want to check out his speech with Neo) that this anamolaic entity while could not be stopped, could be predicted and therefore controlled, which lead "the one" to him. The reason Neo was lead to the Architect? Either,
a) Resistance starts building up within people and after a while the system must be "reloaded." This rebooting process can done by only "the one." If it is not done, people's resistance will build up so much that they will die, or cause the system to crash, killing them inadvertantly.
b) "The one" would be so much of a problem, and free so many minds, that the machines would die from lack of energy. While this contradicts the idea the Architect mentioned of them (the machines) being able to go on surviving without humans, it is much more efficient and easier to continue using humans as a power supply. In otherwords, it's easier for the machines to continue living off humans rather than finding the "other" way to surivive that the Architect mentioned.


2) One of the themes in the new movie is that everything has a purpose. The purpose of Zion is to facilitate the area where these one percenters go. Remember, if those one percenters stayed within The Matrix, they would wreak havoc on the system. The machines WANT them to become unplugged so that all will run smoothly.

If Zion is another matrix, or part of The Matrix, these one percenters would still foresee something "wrong" with the world and would wreak havoc on that system as well. Also, IF Zion is another matrix, why would the machines be encoded to exist on that level of the matrix?
Control?
I suppose so, but then why the massive cover up? Wouldn't it be easier to have an agent like program to keep humans undercontrol?

Another question can be posed as well, if Zion is another matrix. According myself and many other suscribers to this forum who agree with me, Zion is the place where these one percenters go so that that why won't cause a massive system failure of The Matrix. No one can argue that point. The Architect clearly pointed that out. Hypothetically speaking, if Zion is another matrix, or part of the one matrix that we all know exists, where do the one percenters of Zion go? There is always going to be someone who can see through things. That is the whole point of genetics. With any virus or epidemic disease that spreads throughout the world, there is ALWAYS going to be a handful of people who will naturally be able to resist it. It's been proven to be true as of now. There have been reported cases of people naturally fighting off HIV, an uncurable virus. These one percenters of the original Matrix are those select few who's genetic make up, or at least psyche is able to resist The Matrix. IF Zion is another matrix, then there will be once again a select few that will be able to see this.

I suppose one could argue that Neo is the one who would be able to see this. But then why didn't he see it right away when he was reborn as "the one?"

3) The Matrix within a Matrix theory is right because Smith was able to transfer himself into Bane, right?

Wrong.

In the first movie we learn that what ever happens to you in the Matrix, happens to you in the real world as well. After Neo fails the jump program, he asks Morpheus, "I thought it wasn't real?"
Morpheus: "Your mind makes it real."
Neo: "If you die in The Matrix, you die here?"
Morpheus: "The body cannot live without the mind."

So, when Smith sticks his hand in Bane and copies himself into Bane, he copies himself into Bane's code and takes control of Bane. In otherwords, Bane's mind is now controlled by Smith. What happens in The Matrix happens in the real world. So since Bane's mind was taken over by Smith in The Matrix, his mind was taken control over in the real world as well.

A more interesting question you all should be asking is: when they recieved the package, (a computer chip, i don't know what exactly it was) from the oracle to give to Neo, how did it transfer from The Matrix to the real world. Perhaps it was just information on a disk, and they were able to transfer it onto another disc, but it's still strange. Those who have played Enter The Matrix, see this again when Niobe and Ghost get the package left in the Matrix from Thaddeus, recording the Flight of the Osiris.

4) While Ush, and a few other believe the idea that Neo's mind and or code changed when he came close to the source, I did not infer that from the game at all. (Perhaps that is because i finished the game at 5am) While I don't not believe it, I am skeptical. Why was Bane rendered in the same condition as Neo, when it was Neo that brushed with the source?

What I'm implying is that when Neo jumped into Smith at the end of the first movie, something happend. Neo was copied onto Smith, and Smith onto Neo. Think about it. Neo knew that the agents were coming at the beginning of Reloaded. Neo wasn't surprised to see Smith after the Oracle left. Smith himself knew when an agent was going to arrive because during the Burly Brawl, one Smith copied himself into the agent.
AND in the teaser at the end of the movie, we see Smith being able to fly, and be just as powerful as Neo.

So, that is why Neo was able to "feel" the sentinals and stop them. It was something Smith could do, and combined with his own strength, he was able to stop them. Bane was able to do just the same, that is how he survived the slaughter they mention before, and he WAS rendered in the same state as Neo. However, the physical toll on him was too much, and that is why they become unconscious. Before, when in The Matrix, the toll was always on the mind, which Neo could handle just fine, but this time it wasn't.

For all those wacky theories out there that Neo is a machine, or a program, and that is why when he EMPed the sentinals, he hurt himself, is a bunch of baloney. If that were true, he would have died at the end of the first movie when they EMPed and killed all the sentinals that were breaking into the Neb.

There are my ideas, and I think without reasonable doubt that they are accurate. If anyone want's to dispute them, go for it, BUT you better be able to back up your arguements just as I have.

i undoubtebly agree with you Tevesh it all makes sense plus i had some theories and some stuff to back up but u just summed it all up which is great cause alot of ideas i had u have proven them and i agree with u all the way man good job


------Reveiller

I will actually have to GET to the point in question about part of Neo being in the Matrix before I can be definitive about it. I have only heard it from someone else who posted here.

OK remember that the oracle told Neo that he just made a decision ... all right Neo interpreted this bad, she said you just made the decision but she means the decision to save TRINITY. Neo just belived that the decision she talked it was the decision to save Zion. So you see the Oracle knew that Neo will save TRIN.Dont you think?????

I think everything in this movie occurs like planning. Did u c when before the oracles left Seraph and she knew something. They knew Smith gonna come. Merovigian knows what was going to happen everyone in the movie knows everystep that neos going to do. Remember in the first fight when smith sent the audiophone to neo he said something like "it happened just like before"

Best Trinity, yes. the Oracle does know what's going to happen. She said that Neo has already made up his mind on what he will choose, but he must understand why he made that decision. As for Smith, yes, I do believe he was around for the previous anamolies, but this time, Neo destroyed him...making him into a virus. The lines are something like:

Well, that went as expected

Yes, it's happening just as before

Well, not exactly like before

That's not an exact quote, but it something like that.

Omega, you and I do agree about 99%. But, I don't understand why you think Bane when into a coma. What it because of the EMP?
Also, he wouldn't read as a matrix entity if he were out in the real world. Smith transfered his mind into a human's. he would read as any other human. Sentinals cannot read brainwaves, or interpert human psyche. they were made for one thing: "Search and destroy."

While I'll agree with you that they may have left him alone if he was in a coma, why did he (Bane) fall into a coma to begin with?

In the ending there wasnt the EMP that destroyed the sentinels coz the Hammer was still in the air. Remember that was the EMP that destroyed the other 5 ships, Why?? coz there wasnt out yet or far from the electro.

If I may step in here for Tevesh If you watch some of the scenes from the "Enter the Matrix" game you'll see that Bane actually is the one that prematurely set off the EMP during the counter-strike. I'm still up in the air as too why he survived, but I do have my theories.

I have no problem at all with the first part. Neo can read the Matrix - he can change it - and probably sense events too. Perfect.

But I would have a serious problem with Neo - or any human - stopping machines when they are unplugged. Even if he somehow was running the Source inside his real world brain...

The only thing I can live with would be some Neo code running inside the Matrix taking care of him outside it. Just like Smith did for himself / Bane.

And I do agree Neo changed Smith and the other way around. After all you do not truly know someone until you fight them (off-topic-ish: could be the reason Merovingian ran off instead of fighting Neo).

One more thing that could be connected to all this: why did the spoon return? We all know there is no spoon, right? Kind of fits the 'Zion is part of the Matrix' idea.

i believe the spoon was there just so neo would know that the orphan had been set free.

ONE thing that may have been of importance, but i have no clue as to what it could mean is at the end during the neo/architect discussion.

The camera movies from the actual scene into a tv, through it, and back into the actual scene. this happens i think 3 times.

The omega,

i believe that bane survived in the same manner neo did, by stopping the machines and rendering himself unconcious.

Chico is right. it was bane who set off the premature emp blast to sabatoge the counter-attack.

As for Smith, I think he will learn more of his new found powers that were "copied" from Neo. After all, we do get to see him fly in the trailer for revolutions.

Neo could have copied himself, but the question is, would he? It's one thing for a program to copy itself, but a human, with human emotions? (other than hate) There is only ONE Trinity after all

The point is, though, that Neo didn't copy himself, he made a choice, just as the oracle said he would.

Tuur. the architect mentioned something about Neo that his coming to him altered his conciousness. maybe that has something to do with it.

Let me organize my thoughts and post them a bit later. i'm tired. i spent the entire night fixing my computer that sporadically decided to screw itself in the arse until it died.

A glitch Tev? - (sorry, couldn't resist )


Anyway, if Neo can't copy himself, maybe it's Smith inside the Matrix who saved Neo. Smith still wants Neo's power...

Yeah Remember that Smith told Neos that he wanted what Neo want.

Ok, i reached that point in the computer game.

To confirm, the Oracle says this:

Oracle: Neo's mind brushed the Source, and his mind was seperated from his body. Now he is trapped in a place between their world and ours.

Niobe: Can we get him out?

Oracle: Trinity can. But she will have to fight through hell to do it.

So, the point about Neo touching the source and leaving part of himself there is confirmed and cannot be disputed.

ok. thanks ush. so that's how neo was able to stop the sentinals.

But as The Omega pointed out, why wasn't Bane killed? and why was he unconcious?

Smith does fly at the end of the movie...in fact, they flash a scene of a subway coming in as smith is flying towards neo (taking us to a "deja vu" of the first movie when Neo jumps out of the way). Maybe Bane will play a "Cypher" type betrayal role in the next movie. Or perhaps with the help of the trio will inadvertantly bring the humans to victory.

ya smith looks much more powerful in the next movie. like in the preview when he flies through the wall and neo jumps out of the way. I am glad that the two apear that they will be more evenly matched.

I think cypher was banes cousin they re same shit

I was in other forum were discused the M Reloaded really deep

anyway, getting back on topic, Ush has just proved to us that there is only one matrix by explaining what the oracle said to Niobe. There is no matrix within a matrix. Zion is real. The matrix is fake.

I think it's like I said before: (Matrix) Smith still needs his real world spy out there. He did the did the same thing Neo did...

Re: Zion - I'm convinced now.

Re: unconcious...

From Ush - ETM:

'Oracle: Neo's mind brushed the Source, and his mind was seperated from his body. Now he is trapped in a place between their world and ours.'

Smith / Bane: same story.

Seraph, if you had read all of the other posts, you would see why the "real" world is not another matrix. Go back about one or two pages and read my really long post as well as Ush's ideas and everyone elses.

Now the deal with Bane, I do believe is something pretty cool.

When Neo killed Smith, and Neo was copied into Smith and Smith into Neo, a connection was made between them. Now, what if say, this connection wasn't just for that one moment in time, but was a continuous open connection. A live feed from Smith to Neo that is always open.

What I'm trying to say is, that connection was just in that one place in time, but has existed since from that time on. Just as Smith knows where all his copies are, and what they are doing, he knows where Neo is and what he is doing because of the "continuous live feed" connection between him and Neo. So, when Neo's mind brushed with the source, Smith's/Bane's mind did as well.

I believe that you are right on this point, Tuur.

I heard someone say that they didn't understand what happened at the end of Matrix Reloaded. From what I got out of the movie, to me it seemed that they are in a Matrix that is within another Matrix. When neo said he could feel the sentenals that was because everyone is still in a program. The reason Neo is in a coma is because he set himself free from the Matrix. Like they said in the movie the one freed some of the first out of the matrix, and since he is out he can start to go back in to save others.
Well anyways thats my opinion.

My friend and I argue over the Multiple matrix idea. At this point we have agreed to disagree. haha.

It really suprises me how many ppl leave the movie thinking there is a matrix within a matrix. Not that its not possible, I just don't agree. Its just kinda interesting that almost eveyone's first thought was that of two matrices. Mine definitely wasn't...guess we'll find out for sure in November.

(sorry if somebody else already mentioned this)

Remember the boy who runs up to give something to Neo? What was it? A spoon. Why? Because there is no spoon. But wait...the orphan...obviously the same one that said it in the LAST movie...is now in Zion. And he makes the boy SWEAR to deliver the package BEFORE Neo leaves. Why? What does the spoon mean?

1. I know you're going back into the Matrix...remember, there is no spoon there... Nah...Neo's pretty good there.

2. Thanks for getting me out? Nah, that could have waited until Neo got back.

3. Now I'm in the 'real' world, and I can tell you...there is STILL no spoon!

Or what about the Oracle...

"How are you feeling?"

"I, uh..."

"I know you're not sleeping. Well get to that."

Huh? What does she mean by that? She's hinting at something...

And the architect...

"99% of all test subjects accepted the program so long as they were offered a choice."

A choice of "The City" or "Zion." Those that CHOOSE Zion tend to accept the program because they made the choice...get it?

Remember the first scene when Neo gets to the architect? What is he looking at? Stars. The universe. Implying that the Matrix is much LARGER than we perhaps might think...

Bottom line, I believe that Zion is not necessarily "another" matrix, so much as another PART of the Matrix... But it is NOT the 'real' world.

In fact, there might not BE a 'real' world. If Zion is in fact another part of the Matrix, then the part about being batteries may well be a lie. Which would explain why it was so easy for the Architect to say that "there are levels of survival that we are willing to accept." Yeah, because what you believe is a lie...and their death doesn't impact us directly like you think it does...

And consider that according to the Architect, Neo is "carrying code", or that somehow parts of Neo could be transferred to Smith... Could "human" just be a TYPE of program that was never really given the knowledge that it is in fact a program? And could the whole purpose of the Matrix really be less about "control" and more about 'influencing them to raise their consciousness?' That perhaps the Anomaly is really what they want (hence their desire to get their hands on his "code". That the REAL purpose of the matrix is to develop a program that grows BEYOND the bounds of its original programming?

Hmmm...

The spoon means that the orphan got out. It was also a means of saving Neo's life.

As for the Oracle. She wouldn't be much of one if she didn't know everything that was going on. Obviously she must know what's going on with Neo, in the matrix or not.

In fact, if you believe in the matrix within a matrix idea, the Oracle prooves it with that quote. "I know you're not sleepy, we'll get to that."

Obviously he's not sleeping because he's not "plugged in" a matrix. he's free. How do we know? In the first movie Neo talks to the client whom which he sells his virus to.

Neo: "Have you ever had the feeling when you're not sure if you're still awake or still dreaming?"

What was from the first movie. He wasn't sure of his dreams or reality. He could not distinguish them at all. Morpheus says the samn thing.

Morpheus: "Have you ever had a dream, Neo, which you thought was so real, what if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference betwen the dream world, and the real world?"

Ok so that too was from the first movie. Well what does Neo do in this movie? He DREAMS! and then he wakes up from those dreams! He is able to distinguish from his dreams and reality now that he is living in the real world.

Before, when he was in The Matrix, he wasn't able to do the same thing.

Remember the scene after the agents bug Neo, he's freakin out, and the next thing we know, he wakes up! We thought it was actually a dream, but it turned out not to be.

In this movie, we, the audience KNOW what he's dreaming and what he's actually doing. We, as well as him, can tell the difference between his dreams and reality. Prooving that there is only ONE matrix

Makes sense to me. Neo is growing more and more into the Matrix (he dreams of it in the real world!). This could be a reason...

Too many people have said that Zion is a false place where humans go thinking they are free because they have made the choice. Thios is not an analysis that fits the facts. Just because they think they have made a choice to be free does NOT make them any less of a problem! As I have pointed out, those in the matrix THINK they are free as well.

it has nothing to do with what in-Matrix decisions you make. If you are IN this false reality you SUBCONCIOUSLY know it. And so it only works if you can choose to be in or out- that choice has to be for REAL> So Zion has to be real else the people in there would still subconciously know they were in a false world and it would not work; they had made no choice at all.

That these choices have to be present and genuine is one of the basic points of the film.

There isn't more than one Matrix.

It's clear there is some sort of connection...

When neos code got mixed up with the code of agent smith.He was still an agent.Agents program sentinels.so he took the ability to program them like smiths brain is in that one guy.Even if there was a double matrix neo wouldnt have those powers till he got out of it.

What if the whole movie its a dream??? Like Alice. She was dreaming all the time.

There is only one matrix. I will try to make you understand, so you will know where the third matrix starts. Two ships are left in the fleet the logos and the hammer. The logos is Captian Niobe's ship. The Hammer is the strongest ship in the fleet, which can launch an EMP while still operating its hovercraft mobility. At the end of Matrix reloaded the Hammer was sent to find survivors of the counter attack. When it arrived the machines tried to attack them, but they let off an EMP destroying the machines and knocking the human in which agent smith was in the body of out cold. Once the Hammer picked up it's survivor it headed north on the orders of Commander Lock to bring in the crew of the Neb, so that they could have more ships to defend the front gates of Zion, besides the powerful Hammer. When the hammer comes to the NEB., the NEB crew are running though the tunnels away from the sentinals. This is when the story gets interesting. The Hammer goes into action. The Wac Brothers decided not to show this in the movie, so all you fans could have your random thoughts. The Hammer pushes forward and launches an EMP, YES WHILE STILL MOVING, Neo turns puts up his hand and gets shocked by the EMP and the Sentinels and himself fall to the ground. Now this is how NEO got shocked.


In the first movie Neo destroys agent smith by going inside of him. Agent Smith though is thrown out of the agent society, The Arcitect confronts agent smith and gives him special powers letting him control and feel other robots. Now this is what you don't know, after NEO talks to the Oracle agent smtih comes and fights. Agent Smith tried to take neo over, but neo overcomes him. Smith's powers to control of robots is placed inside of him, but neo does not know that yet. This power has to be awakened by a huge emotional push through the body. That is what makes this "the one" different from all the rest. NEO receives the kiss of emotion from Persephone, which is the other maker of the MATRIX that the Artchitect was talking about.


Now lets get to the point NEO talks to the artchitect and runs and saves Trinity causing the emotional rush and the robot that was already inside of him trigger, now the robots awakeness was a cause of all three. Agent Smith, The Emotional rush, and Persephone. Now heres the trick that nobody seems to see. The program was already inside to NEO. THe oracle knew this everytime she talked to him. The oracle kept saying is that what you want to hear. This is where the third movie starts. Inside to neo is a renegade program, that the architect thought he could control, but he couldn't because the maker of emotion persephone hacked the program and made it a renegade, like the oracle, keymaker and other which you will see. The revolution takes place when the renegade programs and the humans fight back. I am sorry, but I will get in trouble if i tell you anymore information.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but NEO is the link he is half robot and half human. ZION is still around. There is only ONE matrix. I didn't like the story on the set either, but the end of the trilogy is unbelievable. I think all of you will be amazed. I WAS.

WWWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!

Hey, MatrixKnower, So u said that neos is half robot, but where a robot can have sexual relatios?? without been noticed by the other part??(Trinity)

cant u answer it right???

What someone said in another thread. That The first Matrix (diaster matrix that was supposed to be perfect) is the 'real world'. I think that could be right.

Every single point Serpent makes can be more easily explained WITHOUT the real world being in the Matrix and already has been done so in this thread so please read threads thoroughly before posting.

What a pointless complication of a simple concept! it was just a perfect world and it did not work. The Mother did not, in any case, have any input until after the SECOND Matrix so the Eve allegory fails.

But that's just it, I think the fundamental point of these movies is about the subject of FATE, DESTINY, and PRE-DETERMINATION.

Specifically, what is the difference between a Human consciousness, and an Algorithm?

As the Merovinginian states ... "it's all just cause and effect"

By saying that your saying the Oracle is the "mother" I don't think she is myself.

What does it being about determinism have to do with whether the world we see in in a Matrix or not?

Why does the difference betwen machine and human intelligence have any bearing on it either? (The main difference, btw, is that machines are created with purpose by design and may become more generic as they exist, whilst humans begin generic but might find a purpose)

It's an over-complication because it is an unnecessary allegory. And the Mother (it is dodgy of you to call her the Oracle as that is not yet known) did not come along until Matrix number THREE, as the film itself says, so your allegory fails in any case.

Yeah i've been gone for a second and trying to catch up. Who is Matrixknower and how does he/she know all of this information. Im not saying i don't believe you but you are making some very big statements without any evidence to back you up. Could you maybe elaborate some.

thanks

Well, I only count what Matrixknower says as rough opinion.

well he is stating things that didn't happen in the movie, so either he has a script or some way of getting info or a very overactive imagination.

If its true it would make since and help us get past this more than one matrix thing that i don't believe or see the need for

Oh, Neo as a machine only raises the same amount of awkward points though.

this is true, that is why i want to know if this info can be trusted because it is completly new to me and i thought i had missed something somewhere

Well, there is a big deal with the Architect apparently dismissing the Oracle as the Mother. And no matter what you say your Eve analogy is flawed by the Mother not being there for the first two Matrices.

I'm with you Ush. But we ARE getting off topic here. (Sorry Ush, I know that's your job). Besides, what does a Biblical Analogy have to do with if there's more than one matrix or not?

There is only one matrix. I've proved myself several times in this thread, and disproved many of the arguments supporting the idea that there is more than one matrix.

There is room for doubt, but the most direct interpretation of the Architect's scorn is that the Oracle is NOT the mother and it is still hotly debated.

But Tevesh is right, we should return to subject.

They are fans of just about ALL the great philosophers though, some of whom think entirely differently, so that is no good as proof.

We go by what we seein the canonical plots given to us and this at this point suggests otherwise. Speculation- even that based upon influences of the film- is secondary to film-based fact.

Right. In this film alone, there was the workings of Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, Hume, Plato and Hagel. Dostovevsky and Hagel had competely different ideas the ideal state of living, yet both are a part of this movie.

Just because the Washowski brothers are fans of Godel doesn't mean that is what they planned the movie out to be. Your arguement that they like it is therefore invalid. The brothers have taken works from almost EVERYONE and put them together in this duology. They take works from Chrisitanity, Buddism, Hinduism, Greek mythology, tons of philosophy and the list goes on.

So your arguement of the Gopel fails as well, based on all of the other facts accumulated from the first two movies. I'm not saying you're wrong we are all speculating here, but based on what we've seen thus far, it is very very unlikely

Not that I'm into that Adam and Eve theory, but how did you come to this? The only thing we know is that she found the answer after the crash of the second Matrix (btw: do you think the Architect created her too?).

The only other thing I can think of is the Oracle, and I'm pretty sure she stated she is as old as the Matrix. The Architect's 'please' when Neo speaks of the Oracle doesn't say much IMHO.

mmmm matrix within a matrix how very gay. When I left the cinema after my 1st viewing everyone (ok ok ok 3 people) were toiting the matrix within a matrix idea.

However that would make a shitty film really (And lets not get off track people it is a film that we are talking about) to go through all of that only to emerge in another matrix! bullshit that's not a fun story.

We can only debate this amongst ourselves, here are my points.
I think Merivinginan is an ex-One, I believe he made the choice to save Zion and his reward was power. (I base this on a few body language and subtle comments during Neo's 1st meeting with him). Also when his wife said that Merivinginan used to be just like Neo. So she wanted to kiss him to remember what it was like to kiss a man with great purpouse.

Who says that Bane was in a coma at the end of the movie? I dont remember seeing that mentioned. Just that he was a survivor from the Sentinal slaughter, I think that we are drawing conclusions where there are none in regards to this aspect. So this changes a few things as to what happened between Neo and Bane/Smith.

The french dude cannot be a former "one". he said that he had survived all of Neo's predacessors and he will survive him (Neo) as well. Did he survive himself? Of course not.

Bane was in a coma. The camera stopped at his face when he was laying unconcious right before the horrendous words came up: To be continued.

Yet again we (I as well) deter from the point of the thread.

As the video game suggests, Neo's mind brushed with the source when he was talking with the architect. He is now living in both worlds at the same time. He can now "feel" the machines. And if the connection between Smith and Neo is a constant open line, meaning that whatever new information Neo comes across Smith also learn and vice versa, that explains how Bane was able to survive the counter-attack after sabotaging it.

Whoever mentioned the fact that The Hammer was able to set off EMP blasts while not shutting down is not possible. EMP blasts disable ANY electrical equipment in the blast radius. That includes itself. There isn't a way to shield yourself from it, especially if it's coming from within the ship itself. It was not the Hammer's EMP blast that rendered Bane and Neo unconcious.

As a final point, if Zion was another matrix, by now (it's been standing for about a century or more) wouldn't someone have woken up from it, just as they have been waking up from The Matrix itself? No one has woken up from Zion because there is nothing to wake up from. It is real.

Personally, the whole idea of a matrix inside a matrix would be too much of a copycat off of "The Thirteenth Floor." I believe it's possible, but it would be totally lame if it were to turn out that way. When I first saw both the Matrix and Thirteenth Floor, I thought they were identical in their theme. If they ended the same, that would really ruin my day. in fact, the whole idea of Smith entering the real world through Bane is awfully close to the concept that was original with the makers of the Thirteenth Floor. Those who have seen it will know what I mean

And, as an afterthought, if Zion really was part of the matrix, why would Neo slip into a coma after stopping the sentinels. Obviously, if Zion is part of the matrix, then Neo realized that, and since he knew that, he should have had all the power he had in the oracle's matrix, and thus destroying the sentinels shouldn't have hurt him at all. I don't know, but the whole matrix within a matrix idea doesn't sit right with me.

...A chog is what happens when you want to type "ShadowTheHedgehog" but theres a 16 character limit.



We don't know what is on the outside. Maybe everyone is plugged in, not by machines, but rather by humans. All these humans would have to do is...push some buttons, and disconnect them from Zion. They'd wake up, ending up in the real world.

This does make you wonder how the first people escaped though. Obviously after the 1st matrix, the one picked 23 individuals. But... Who escaped to Zion from the FIRST Matrix and how?

Ok 1st off Merovingian (hereby known as Meri. name is too damn long)

Maby he was the 1st one. that would fit with his "I have survived your prdecessors" (Note he did not say ALL) he might have displayed a special trait that made him more suseptable to corruption and power, which was modified/removed for the future ONE"S.

Also how could he have survived the predecessors unless he was a bit ONE like himself, think about it, to go up against 4-5 ONE'S you need to be pretty powerfull yourself.

NEO and the 2nd matrix theory. I believe that his mind is in the matrix or at least part of it, this allowed him to control the sentinals from within the computer simulation, this caused him to go into the coma because allthough his mind in the matrix can handle all of the cool things that he does there, his real mind in the real world, proberbly could not handle the massive amount of stress that the intermind control of sentinals through his digital mind in the matrix.

This leaves me to believe that there is only 1 matrix, as if there was NEO'S mind in the real world would have handled the stress, as he would have realised that he was in another matrix (I dont think that the realisation of being in another matrix would be enough to put him in a coma, I think that from all he has seen and done, he would have accepted it and just realised that he had even more power. In that case he would simply go 'superman' and fly up and destroy all of the sentinals on the surface with a big smile on his face)

Still I reinstate the point that No-one syas that Bane is in a coma, Neo is. Just because Bane is in the same room as Neo at the end does not mean that he is in the same condition as Neo. He might just be unconsious/drugged/sedated etc.

My thoughts on how Bane survived. He was rescued by the Hammer and other ships before the Sentinals got to him, I dont think that he did the same thing that Neo did, as I dont think that Smith/Bane would destroy so many sentinals (some are assuming that he did, using the same power as NEO, therby putting him into the same coma) just to preserve a copy of himself. Surely doing so would help the humans (Smith hates Humans and the real world, remember that from the 1st film)

He would see him Bane incarnation as just another copy of himself, one that can be re-created as easilly. We get back to purpose as well. Smith/Bane found a purpose (Destroying the Human ambush/counter attack. it would be a contradiction to sabotage a counter attack and then destroy the counter attackers.

I think that he did not need/wish to survive the Sential attack and that he just got very lucky somehow and was rescued.

Now onto EMP theory. The Hammer did not set off an EMP to destroy the sentinals at the end.

1. Everybody would have heard the Hammer close by, as those hovercraft are bloody loud, watch the matrix again to see that.

2. The manner of the Sentinals destruction is not consistant with the effect of emp. the sentinals in the 1st film, just shutdown as they would do when their electrical sicruits are disabled. Howver at the end of the 2nd film, the Sentinals exploded! EMP does not do that.

My theory on the 1st ONE.

I believe that the 1st ONE just woke-up. he drastically realised that something was wrong in the real world and just refused to accept it. Therefore rejecting the matrix and waking up. Or the Machines unplugged him to start the creation of Zion and the start of their control.

Something has just occured to me. If what the Architect is saying is true, then why did the machines not know who/what Neao was at the very outset of the matrix. Lets think about this one, as I feel it is quite important.

Given that the Machines own/control the matrix, would it not be fair to assume that they can find this anomoly when it is created. NEO was around 30yrs old when he was unplugged, this would ive the machines around 30 years to look for this anomoly and set about controlling him.
I think that this disproves the Architect's statement to NEO, I think that the machines just tried to break the human spirit and came up with this scenario as it would be the most effective in breaking the human's will and hope. Therfore aiding in the destruction of Zion.

"Also how could he have survived the predecessors unless he was a bit ONE like himself, think about it, to go up against 4-5 ONE'S you need to be pretty powerfull yourself."

He said survived. He never mentioned hand to hand combat. He could've just ran away like he did with Neo.

"This leaves me to believe that there is only 1 matrix, as if there was NEO'S mind in the real world would have handled the stress, as he would have realised that he was in another matrix"

Who said he passed out from zapping the sentinels? :-P I personally think its too blatantly obvious. But who knows, maybe they were thinking "people will think this is too blatantly obvious" and put it in, and you could be right. Who knows.

"I think that he did not need/wish to survive the Sential attack and that he just got very lucky somehow and was rescued."

Well...What if no one else was going to enter the matrix as a result of the attack on Zion, and them all fighting. Smith needs a body. If no one goes to the Matrix, he can't steal one.

What would Smith/bane's purpose be then in the real world. Surly not to kill NEO once and for all, I think that the 250,000 sentinals on their way down to Zion would be able to manage that!

MAYBE...

Bane triggered the EMP, thinking the sentinels would go down destroying Neo and Zion.

Then a sentinel came to him, he felt connected, and he knew he could destroy it. Being highly intelligent as well as aware of his connection with Mr. Anderson, he would have assumed Neo could stop them too.

Thus, for him to die knowing Neo could stop the sentinels would have been worthless. So instead he decided to live to go after Neo himself, with his newly found powers. (IE: Flying and such) Since he knew that now he was more of a match for Neo.

But, when he went to stop the sentinel he didn't know he'd pass out.

Until afterwards of course .

If Zion were a Matrix (very unlikely) I do not think it would be the 1% of the 1% that would sunconciously reject it. It would be ALL of them. If you reject it based on your SUBCONSCIOUS denial (remember your CONSCIOUS thoughts are irrelevant to this) you will reject it wherever you are. It is the violation of this vital point of choice if Zion were a Matrix which turnes me off most about the idea.

Shadow, if you look at the way the thread (and previous ones where this first came together) was constructed, the reason that showing how these things could happen without there being a second Matrix is taken as good evidence that there isn't one is not because it disproves that idea in of itself, but because the ONLY reason people come up with the matrix-within-Matrix idea in the first place is that is because that is the only thing they thought explained these things. Once you do not NEED the Matrix-inside-Matrix idea to explain these things, it's existence becomes very tenuous as it starts to look like a shabby, clumsy, contrived pointless plot.

Let's face it, the ONLY reason a lot of peole think it is because of what Neo did at the end. Even the Bane thing (which is SO easily explained otherwise as to be amazing that people still think that proves anything) only really spins out because of that. No-one even seems to care that what Neo did to those sentinels does not even SEEM like the sort of powers the One has. This one thing has caused this massive misconception to spread on VERY little proof. Other explanations are far more convincing and consistent with the film.

And on a practical point, I simply cannot see thing thing about Neo's mind being seperated after contacting the Source AND their being a weak Matrix-in-Matrix plot. It's just not going to happen.

As for the First One, the only question is why he didn't drown/starve on awakening if he were not assisted by the machines (because it is canonical from the Animatrix that it is possible to free yourself). However... it's not really important, only trivial, and so can be ignored.

I would agree with Ushgarak on this one. It is very unlikely that there is matrix within a matrix level. It is a way to try to explain what Neo did. Not a very logical one at that though. I think Ushgarak hit it on the head when he said that they would still reject the matrix on either level. What makes the first matrix different from the Zion part?

I totally disagree. The subconcious chioce to REJECT would remain until actually free, utterly regardless of what obfuscations are put in the way.

The person never even knew he HAD a subconcious choice, after all, let alone that he had made one. Remember, the POINT is that the Mother discovered that people would accept the Matrix IF they actually decided whether they wanted to be in it or not. This was not a matter of being asked if you want to be in one such Matrix, or another such Matrix thinking you are free. It is simply about being ACTUALLY in or ACTUALLY out.

It so happens that decision is subconcious, but it still has to be GENUINE. If tricked that choice has NOT been made, the fault remains. The subconscious makes this decision based on FACT (which, based on the Architect's words, it knows), not on conscious experience. Simply having the conscious experience of being freed wouldn't make a difference. The subconcious would still KNOW. The PERSON would not, but the part of him rejecting it all would.

I'm with Ush. Your subconcious would still not accept the fact that you're still in a matrix. In all the one percenters, it was the subconcious trying to communicate with the concious telling it that it is in a dream world. Why would it be any different in whatever sublevel matrix you are within?

Sorted.

I am still not convinced. I think there is only 1 Matrix, but that Zion IS another level of that Matrix. Neo stopping the sentinels is just too big of an event for it to be dismissed as "he's gained a new power." I for one don't believe that. Even if somehow part of his mind was left in "The Source" as some of you have said (This info came from the GAME, mind you so therefore doesn't hold much weight imo) how would he be in contact with that part of his mind unless he was still "plugged in" somehow? I didn't type this message by using my mind to do it telepathically, but you are asking me to believe thats how Neo stopped the sentinels? No way. If the "real world" is actually the "real world" then noone should have special powers there, not even Neo.
Therefore, I think the "Zion realm" is just another part of the Matrix.
I think the Bane/Smith connection and the computer chip passing from Matrix to Zion are other clues to support this as well. I've read the counter-arguments, and they could be exactly right. I just don't completely agree with them.

Some of you argue that if Zion were another level of the Matrix, Neo would realize it and use his powers there....I say not necessarily. Neo doesn't know everything there is to know about the Matrix and Neo is not "all powerful" there, otherwise he could teleport himself instead of flying (would be quicker, and it would have helped in the case of saving Trinity)

Therefore, if Zion is another level of the Matrix, it doesn't automatically mean Neo would have powers there. Maybe it's coded different. Maybe Zion is coded so well, that it fools even the subconscious mind for awhile, so noone "wakes up" from it. Remember, you have to REALIZE "there is no spoon" before you can alter your reality. I think the reappearance of "the spoon" could be a clue as well. Maybe noone realizes Zion is fake yet (each version of the Matrix is an upgrade, and works for awhile, even the 1st "perfect Matrix" worked for awhile). Maybe Neo is starting to realize that Zion is fake, but he hasn't figured out his powers yet (remember it took him awhile to learn in the normal matrix) and the Machines know its just a matter of time before Neo figures out he has powers in the "Zion Realm" so the machines (and Smith) are trying to kill him THERE where he is still vulnerable. Otherwise, why did the machines wait til now to launch their "digging" attack? Zion has been around for awhile...why not destroy it right away? Why? Because it was no threat until they found Neo.

I thought it was strange that some people worshipped Neo in Zion, when he supposedly has no special powers there, could this be a clue as well? Could THEY be the 1% who know that something is STILL "not right?"

I've seen someone argue...
"If Zion is another level of the matrix, then who was the first person to "free" people to Zion?" I say it could have been a program in the form of a person. Remember in M1, Morpheus said it was someone born inside the Matrix who freed the first minds. "Born inside the Matrix" sounds like a metaphor for a "program" to me.

I guess we'll find out in November.

Just some thoughts...not very well organized and for that I apologize.

Oh yeah another thought....How did the Oracle know Neo was having trouble sleeping, if the insomnia was occuring in the "real world?"

Another thought, how is it that Neo (while in the "real world" was dreaming about things yet to happen in the Matrix, then those events actually occur?

Answer: Zion is part of the Matrix.

Otherwise, we're going to have to accept a "real world" where Neo has "magic" psychic powers (remote control connection between his mind and "the source", telekenetic powers (using "electricity" to stop the sentinels), clairvoiant powers (he can "feel" the sentinels as they approach) which is a bunch of metaphysical crap.

I think that would be a bunch of bs, and would be VERY disappointed if that's the case.

Zion as another level of the Matrix makes more sense in the context of the movie.

It could be that Neo is intertwined with the matrix, the oracle said that he had the vision. Maybe being the one links him to the matrix in a way that he can see, whether in or out of the matrix. I can believe the 2 level matrix theory, but my question is then why would it be so important to destroy the Zion?

Well, I would think it is important because
Zion is full of people who are "aware" of Neo and the 1st matrix. Therefore, If Neo shows them the truth (they're still in the Matrix) then their would be havoc in the system (which the machine's don't want)

Just had another thought. Why is Zion's Mainframe Control Center (shown as the Neb was approaching Zion) so perfect, bright-white and clean, while the rest of Zion is dark and dirty. Zion's Control Center looks suspiciously similar to the Architect's room...seems to me that Zion's Control Center is just that... the control center for the Zion realm from within the Matrix.

Zion's mainframe was in a matrix type setting, if you saw them, they were laying down connected. So It was in a different setting than Zion. I don't think Neo Realizes yet that there are two matrixes, because why didn't he tell morpheus?

I would say that all of us in a way have a "remote camera view of the future..." but some of us have more clarity when it comes to seeing future unrealized events. Neo has the gift. He has what the Oracle called "the vision". It is the Architect that stimulated what he must do with that vision. I think that when Neo moves beyond the visual to the more indepth spiritual/psychological as the A.I. intends then he will be elevated to more higher levels within the matrix beyond the level that Zion possesses. He will soon realize that Zion is just another level of the Matrix reality. It is the Matrix and none have escaped.

Maybe by allowing people to be "released" from the matrix into the "real world"(zion) the matrix is using a sort of control. They could be simulating real life by making it seem that people are born in the "real world"

The thing is NEo never went into the source. If we look at the conversation between Neo and the Architect, the architect states through this door you go onto the Source and the salvation of mankind, through this one, the death of mankind and trinity(not an exact quote quite )
So he couldn't have placed himself in the source. He didn't go through the other door.

It is exercising control. Complete and absolute control. All of this activity with the humans is to keep the human mind "healthy" thus keeping the body healthy. In actuality the humans are still patched into the system.

As for how the Oracle know Neo isn't sleeping too well... Neo is still "wetwired" into the great mind and the Oracle is a manifestation of the great mind, i.e. the A.I.

Not necessarily. The 1% rejection may only apply to the "regular" matrix (the 20th century "City realm" It may not apply to the "Zion realm" part of the Matrix.

I would have to agree, he could have touched the source. I haven't played the game yet, so I am not sure yet. I would have to say though that some way neo is still wired into the matrix. Whether it be that the matrix includes Zion or not.

I don't play video games but I will contribute to the conversation.

The Architect spoke to Neo in terms of separate personalities between himself and the Oracle. Where in fact the Oracle (the mother or great mother) and the Architect (the father or great father) are one and the same intelligence and personality speaking to Neo separately. Neo has not realized it yet. Zion is the creation of the A.I. and the matrix is the entirety of that creation. The A.I. created the matrix... it isn't the matrix itself. The matrix has several levels of existance and Zion is one of those levels... possibly an experimental level for human minds that function on an extraordinary level apart from the other humans. But there are billions of humans patched into the great machine and so there must be other "Zions"... great holy sanctuaries for more advanced humans. The A.I. will take from those sanctuaries those humans it wishes to absorb into itself for its own evolution and discard the rest. Every several years or generations it will do this and start again. But the Matrix itself evolves and is upgraded... rebooted. So that way there are several successive generations of the Matrix as well. The A.I. learned its mistake with the very first matrix it created. it was a failure because it was NOT a human world. A human existance according to human sensibilities and realities. But it learned from that and created the next generation of matrixes based on human suffering, pain, and apathy.

Neo is the latest advanced human in the "Zion" that he knows of and he is about to be absorbed into the great mind. That is basically the Architect was telling him. Coldly and undiluted.

i don't think there are two matrix's, i believe that neo is simply becoming the one outside of the matrix, as he already has so much power in the matrix, what's to stop him using it outside if he believes it enough!

Serpent,

It's good to know I'm not alone in my thinking. Maul's Woman is with us too.
We need to find more.

Well, the game clearly states that Neo;s mind brushed the Source so that is that.

To say the Architect was only talking about the 'Matrix' part of the Matrix and not the 'Zion' part of the Matrix simply to me betrays how ridiculously silly this argument has become, that you have to specify SO many ifs and buts to make it work, and even then only HALF work, and even then it raises more questions than it answers.

So, let us be clear. It is the whole CONCEPT of enslaving humanity in artificial reality that only works IF the humans have a choice in it. A GENUINE choice. Not a faked, obfuscated or tricked choice, which is no choice at all, and not only to stay in one part of the matrix- to be in a Matrix at ALL.

That is what the A.I. want the "free" humans to think. But in actuality they don't know that their "choices" are predetermined by the A.I. They don't have to know that.

----------------------------------------------------------

But if his mind truly understood that outside the matrix wasn't real, then he wouldn't have slipped into a coma after taking out the Sentinels. He would be just as powerful in Zion's realm as inside the Matrix; unless of course, he doesn't yet fully believe that the outside is part of the Matrix. Like he said himself: "Wait... I can feel them..." So his faith was just based on a feeling, a hunch as opposed to knowing the truth, which is what gives the true power that comes from a freed mind. Just some thoughts, I'm really not sure which way to go on this yet.

If, like us, neo thought that zion wasn't real, and he tested his theory, his mind believed that zion wasn't real, so he could use his powers. However, zion is reAL, but because he believed it wasn't he could use his powers there. This excessive stress on his mind then caused him to fall into a coma