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Cast your predictions here.

1.) MOVIES only.
2.) CANON only.
3.) canon + LEGENDS.

Kylo I would think take takes movies.

Vader takes everything else.

Kylo will win based off his superior movement speed. Vader is slow as ****.

Uh, so is Kylo. They both use slower speed but superior power to generate more strength with each swing which is why he uses his lightsaber like a claymore.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Uh, so is Kylo. They both use slower speed but superior power to generate more strength with each swing which is why he uses his lightsaber like a claymore. Kylo won't be as slow as Vader. Mark my prophetic words.

Vader takes it all for now.

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader takes it all for now. That will change once we see the movie. Mark my words. Points at Kanan and Ezra humiliating Vader.

According to rumors Vader is flat out stated to be more powerful.

He has some great hype, but he isn't on Vader's level.

Vader wrecks all rounds.

Vader will always be his Superior.

Kylo is probably much weaker than Dooku and Mace.

We won't be able to tell from merely the first film. He needs a lot more tie in material, and we need to see what he's capable of in terms of dueling/force power. But I think he'll be a lot better than our initial thoughts of him being "Inquisitor" tier or whatever nonsense some of the older posts said. Given his lineage I think we can expect some great showings in the years to come, and hopefully Marvel gets off their asses/Storygroup releases his own eponymous comic series or novel pertaining to him

Complete and utter stomp fest for Vader. Based on spoiler-packed reviews, even Kanan can handle Kylo Ren.

That's weird since that encyclopedia or whatever was wanking the **** out of Kylo

Originally posted by |King Joker|
That's weird since that encyclopedia or whatever was wanking the **** out of Kylo

Regardless of what they say, there's no excuse for Finn lasting even more than five seconds against him!

Worse yet.

Rey kicks his ass and it appears this is the first time she has ever used a lightsaber.



Poor Kylo gets stomped.

LMFAO.

That's sort of disappointing, though.

Originally posted by ares834
Worse yet.

Rey kicks his ass and it appears this is the first time she has ever used a lightsaber.



Poor Kylo gets stomped.
Have you seen that baby girl though?

How was Kylo supposed to ever compete?

That's a real shame. If I were Abrams, I would've simply had Kylo Ren dispatch an "apprentice" and have him/her deal with Finn and Rey. The way this movie does it just makes him complete garbage.

Originally posted by ares834
Worse yet.

Rey kicks his ass and it appears this is the first time she has ever used a lightsaber.



Poor Kylo gets stomped.

No one can stand up to dem abs tho.
http://i.imgur.com/nTzTt51.jpg

Remember that Abrams doesn't even consider the PT in his headcanon. He's basing this entirely off the movies where barely trained prodigies like Luke can beat up Darth Vader. This isn't surprising at all.

He still had training though. And still got his ass kicked in his first duel with Vader. On the other hand, this seems to be the first time Rey has lifted a lightsaber and she still wins. It's ridiculous.

Chewbacca shoots him. Then he duels Finn and gets hurt before taking down Finn. Then he's beating Rey, until for some odd reason he stands there while she meditates and the ground crumbles beneath them, and then she goes ham. He then gets his face slashed and lives.

Ridiculous is putting it mildly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
he stands there while she meditates and the ground crumbles beneath them, and then she goes ham. He then gets his face slashed and lives.


Ewwwwwwww noooooo

Kylo will get better but he's nowhere near on the level of his grandfather in skill or power.

Vader breaks his scrawny neck

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ewwwwwwww noooooo
Yeah. Seems pretty Anakin vs Obi-Wan given how generally insane Kylo is portrayed in the movie and what just happened with Han. The bowcasters are also supposed to be crippling, and he keeps punching himself in the stomach to deal with it/gain power.

Gets hella cheesy towards the end.

Maybe they should have let Lucas direct this after all . . .

Sorry for the double post

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Maybe they should have let Lucas direct this after all . . .

And have a great cast being stuck playing blocks of wood in front of a green-screen?

No thanks.

Anyway I like what I'm reading. Looking forwards to seeing this movie even more now.

According to Snoke he hasn't even finished his training yet.

Though it's notable that Kylo took a bowcaster shot to the stomach beforehand and was internally bleeding. He was also dealing with the mental turmoil that comes with murdering his own father.

Though notably he ragdolled Rey and then fought Finn, soundly kicking his ass, and then he faces Rey, initially beating her, but was clearly of half a mind to take her for his own.

Honestly, he performed a lot better than people are claiming.

For now, Kylo is absolutely destroyed by Vader in every category.

But I have the feeling that Kylo will be much, much more powerful in the 8th movie.

Injuries setting him back stacked with strong innate ability on the part of Fin and Rei is why they did well against Kylo. Against Rei as he sustained more injuries she became more focused. I wouldn't hold it against him. This is textbook Star Wars.

Yeah, Vader definitely wins.

Oh imo Vader would definitely win. Not even close really.

Originally posted by AncientPower
According to Snoke he hasn't even finished his training yet.

Though it's notable that Kylo took a bowcaster shot to the stomach beforehand and was internally bleeding. He was also dealing with the mental turmoil that comes with murdering his own father.

Though notably he ragdolled Rey and then fought Finn, soundly kicking his ass, and then he faces Rey, initially beating her, but was clearly of half a mind to take her for his own.

Honestly, he performed a lot better than people are claiming.

I guess considering he was severely injured and mentally unstable he performed better than people say, but still... Beaten by someone who hadn't even turned a lightsaber on before facing him? Come on, that's just unnecessary.

There is no excuse. Any of them being a challenge for Kylo was insipid and added more contradicting showings to the lore. The duals were horrible for a 2015 SW movie. Also, Vader wins.

Originally posted by Sinious
There is no excuse. Any of them being a challenge for Kylo was insipid and added more contradicting showings to the lore. The duals were horrible for a 2015 SW movie. Also, Vader wins.

I agree, I do hope the next movie features more exciting and cooler saber duels.

Overall, I did like the movie tho.

I have 2, maybe 3 things I don't like about it. Other than that, it was pretty sweet.

Originally posted by Sinious
There is no excuse. Any of them being a challenge for Kylo was insipid and added more contradicting showings to the lore. The duals were horrible for a 2015 SW movie. Also, Vader wins.
He got shot in the stomach and is bleeding profusely. Plus, He just crazy murdered his own father. Stupid is one thing, but contradictory it is not.

He himself is a prodigious and trained dark sider who was able to TK stop a freaking laser bolt. He should've been able to one-shot or blitz them.

Uh, they all know how to fight, Finn being trained for it since he was a child. Kylo being prodigious doesn't mean he should be able to blitz anyone with a name. That's stupid. Especially Rey, who he obviously wants to join him, not kill.

Kylo wins.

Lol. Just saw the movie. Kylo Ren was a ****boi.

The duel wasn't that bad tbh, despite being shot by a ridiculously heavy duty bowcaster and suffering under emotional turmoil, he is still able to handily defeat Rey and Finn, it's only when Rey has a burst of oneness/focus that he is overpowered.

And tbh Rey is probably a Skywalker, probably Luke's daughter, so her potential (which here she tapped into) should be vast to say the least.

Still, his lightsaber skills seems sorely lacking, so I imagine Vader would easily trounce him.

For someone who's supposed to be Jacen Solo 2.0, Kylo Ren is...disappointing. 'You will never be as good as Darth Vader' Raye tells him. She's right. Vader is orders of magnitude beyond Mr. Ren. The Kylo Ren we saw in Ep 7 couldn't even take guys like Kit Fisto, let alone Darth Vader.

I am unimpressed with Mr. Ren. Vader stomps.

Kylo Ren would lose to Kanan imo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kylo Ren would lose to Kanan imo. I honestly don't see how Kanan could lose to Ren tbh.

Originally posted by Sinious
I honestly don't see how Kanan could lose to Ren tbh.


Honestly if Finn doesn't turn out to be Force Sensitive (which would be horseshit), then it wouldn't be a stretch to say Ezra is at least Finn level and would give Kylo a hard fight as well.

Tbh until that fight I got the impression that Kylo Ren was mad powerful and was quite impressed by him, I'd like to see him fight uninjured before I cast full judgement.

Though I'm guessing with Snoke "completing his training" he'll be better come Episode 8.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh until that fight I got the impression that Kylo Ren was mad powerful and was quite impressed by him, I'd like to see him fight uninjured before I cast full judgement.

Though I'm guessing with Snoke "completing his training" he'll be better come Episode 8.

That's still no excuse lol. Even if the Inquisitor were shot in the stomach he'd still be able to godstomp two people who have never even used a lightsaber before.

I mean FFS Finn lost to a Stormtrooper a day before he fights Kylo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's still no excuse lol. Even if the Inquisitor were shot in the stomach he'd still be able to godstomp two people who have never even used a lightsaber before. Well you don't really know that, if the Inquisitor was shot by Chewie's bowcaster I don't see him getting up.He beat Finn tho, and both were highly skilled with melee weapons.

My point is though that the writers may have believed Kylo's disadvantage more extensive than we are asserting, and without a base line to compare with we can only speculate.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Honestly if Finn doesn't turn out to be Force Sensitive (which would be horseshit), then it wouldn't be a stretch to say Ezra is at least Finn level and would give Kylo a hard fight as well. Such a ridiculous and fanboyish thing to say. You're obviously upset.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well you don't really know that, if the Inquisitor was shot by Chewie's bowcaster I don't see him getting up.He beat Finn tho, and both were highly skilled with melee weapons.

Eh, I don't know about that. Especially since he was using the wound to power up. +He arguably gained a power-up by killing Han.



Maybe...but it still doesn't change the fact that a Stormtrooper was able to whoop Finn's ass without sustaining any injury, but Kylo got a massive arm wound.

Finn's fight with the Stormy was his first ever usage of the lightsaber in a duel like that, and when he fought injured!Kylo he had one of those "I'm focused now b(tch" moments opposed to the "oh fug oh fug im dueling this guy reaction he had to the Stormy who screamed "TRAITOR" and rushed him.

No two fights are the same and they're dictated by character disposition more than anything else in Star Wars. Fresh Kylo versus first-duel-ever Finn is probably going to be a stomp. Injured Kylo versus focused Finn is still a decisive loss for Finn but he had more of a chance.

Originally posted by ILS
Finn's fight with the Stormy was his first ever usage of the lightsaber in a duel like that, and when he fought injured!Kylo he had one of those "I'm focused now b(tch" moments opposed to the "oh fug oh fug im dueling this guy reaction he had to the Stormy who screamed "TRAITOR" and rushed him.

No two fights are the same and they're dictated by character disposition more than anything else in Star Wars. Fresh Kylo versus first-duel-ever Finn is probably going to be a stomp. Injured Kylo versus focused Finn is still a decisive loss for Finn but he had more of a chance.


Look if Finn turns out to be Force Sensitive, its Gucci. But the idea that a non-trained, non-force sensitive can stand up to even a partially trained Dark Side Warrior is ridiculous.

Finn had more than a chance bro. The same injury that Finn inflicted on him ended essentially disarmed Kenobi in AOTCs.

Not to mention that they're kinda following the more OT-like idea that Jedi aren't that OP with a lightsaber in general.

The force is a bit of another story, though. Stopping blaster bolts ffs.

Agreed, I'm currently praying for all of our sanity that he is Force sensitive.

Finn needs to be Force Sensitive to protect purity of the bloodline. 313


Well that and to remain relevant, but still.

Its so retarded that they didn't give decent speed to force users cause they were filming a remake of ANH. I know they ignored the PT but the dual between Anakin and Kenobi makes Ren look really bad, like no comparison.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Such a ridiculous and fanboyish thing to say. You're obviously upset.

It has nothing to do with fanboyism. It has to do with Finn not becoming yet another black sidekick character whose role is only to support the white cast members (Poe the ace pilot who essentially destroys Death Star 2.0 and Rey the Chosen One 2.0 destined to inherit the Skywalker legacy)

Kylo's training wasn't complete and he defeated him after toying with him. Fanboys can't stand the idea of a non force sensitive standing up to him only makes me laugh as I was right. Victory tastes amazing.

quan mad kylo sux lul.

You mistake. As I said


Which especially sucks because historically Star Wars has veered away from using tropes like that regarding their black characters.

Originally posted by Trocity
quan mad kylo sux lul.
quan mad literally none of his predictions for this movie are true.

Kylo flat out sucks lol. He'd still suck whether or not Finn was force sensitive or not. But I prefer the idea of only Jedi being able to wield it barring massive augmentation like Grievous. I'm fine either way. I'd just prefer if Finn were Force Sensitive and both him and Rey did Jedi training together. It'd be refreshing to see two apprentices learning at once and really get across the idea of Luke rerestarting the Jedi Order better.

I, for one, am completely fine with this. This is a far more realistic depiction of a lightsaber duel; Finn is a super-fit, highly trained soldier. This is a life or death battle, not a performance. Kylo Ren is only human, and he's badly hurt. There is no perfect technique to make someone untouchable. This is what happens in sword fights. All things considered, Kylo did exceptionally well, befitting of a highly trained warrior.

What I'm not fine with is Kylo getting his ass whooped by Rey, who isn't trained at all whatsoever, and in the most goofy way possible. Like, fan-film tier oneness mid-duel meditation shit.

Short answer: Never mind Vader, Darth Maul could take Kylo+Finn+Rey by himself. And wouldn't break a sweat doing so.

Idk Rey could bullshit her way to victory at this point. Agreed otherwise, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I, for one, am completely fine with this. This is a far more realistic depiction of a lightsaber duel; Finn is a super-fit, highly trained soldier. This is a life or death battle, not a performance. Kylo Ren is only human, and he's badly hurt. There is no perfect technique to make someone untouchable. This is what happens in sword fights. All things considered, Kylo did exceptionally well, befitting of a highly trained warrior.

What I'm not fine with is Kylo getting his ass whooped by Rey, who isn't trained at all whatsoever, and in the most goofy way possible. Like, fan-film tier oneness mid-duel meditation shit.


Yeah I prefer the PT depiction of Jedi honestly. I also thought the duels were sloppily choreographed doesn't hold a candle to the Duel of Fates in Episode 1. Also...really don't like the effects on the sabers.

Rey's duel was pretty cringeworthy on all levels, but I liked every single other fight in the movie tbh.

PT is cool in it's own right, but didn't capture this dangerous feel to saber combat as well for me.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I, for one, am completely fine with this. This is a far more realistic depiction of a lightsaber duel; Finn is a super-fit, highly trained soldier. This is a life or death battle, not a performance. Kylo Ren is only human, and he's badly hurt. There is no perfect technique to make someone untouchable. This is what happens in sword fights. All things considered, Kylo did exceptionally well, befitting of a highly trained warrior.

What I'm not fine with is Kylo getting his ass whooped by Rey, who isn't trained at all whatsoever, and in the most goofy way possible. Like, fan-film tier oneness mid-duel meditation shit. Meh, realism is all well and good but this is a space opera, I feel it needs a bit of the romantic finesse and spectacle we see in the PT or even the Original Trilogy.

And I agree with Stark, Kylo's lightsaber aside there was something off about Anakin/Luke's - something a bit raw about it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I, for one, am completely fine with this. This is a far more realistic depiction of a lightsaber duel; Finn is a super-fit, highly trained soldier. This is a life or death battle, not a performance. Kylo Ren is only human, and he's badly hurt. There is no perfect technique to make someone untouchable. This is what happens in sword fights. All things considered, Kylo did exceptionally well, befitting of a highly trained warrior. Nah. These are freaking wizards who choose to wield this weapon for a reason. It makes them even deadlier as their unorthodox approach on sword fighting with their connection to the force make them far superior to ordinary beings. They reflect blaster bolts ffs. Finn being able to properly use that weapon was stupid, let alone being a challenge to Ren. I agree with this though. Rey's performance was even more disturbing despite what most people think. At least there are shitty explanations of why Finn didn't get stomped where Rey's part has none.

LOL @ "fan-film tier oneness mid-duel meditation shit".

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Rey's duel was pretty cringeworthy on all levels, but I liked every single other fight in the movie tbh.

PT is cool in it's own right, but didn't capture this dangerous feel to saber combat as well for me.


Ahh, see that's where I disagree. I was on the edge of my seat for every PT duel. In the OT, only Kenobi died in a saber fight and even then he only died because he intentionally let his guard down.

In the PT we get the duel of fates and right off the bat Qui-Gon dies and not from letting his guard down. In all the PT duels I felt like at any moment the person could die.

Well, those are slow. Also, I don't thin there are instances in the OT or ST where fire from several opponents is being deflected.



It's a sword. Finn's exceptional among soldiers who have been bred for combat and trained since birth.

Force users are (in this case) just humans! Humans who have achieved mastery over the mysterious energy that all life forms possess.

I always found Vader's duels to be more compelling, sans the first one. Then again, duels with Savage in general were pretty cool too.

The duels in this movie were awful. Comparing them to the OT is insulting to the OT. Finn also has no melee training that we know of, and to top it all off, Kylo was hyped to oblivion. It's retarded.

Where can one find this visual penistionary hype anyway?

Originally posted by Sinious
Nah. These are freaking wizards who choose to wield this weapon for a reason. It makes them even deadlier as their unorthodox approach on sword fighting with their connection to the force make them far superior to ordinary beings. They reflect blaster bolts ffs. Finn being able to properly use that weapon was stupid, let alone being a challenge to Ren. I agree with this though. Rey's performance was even more disturbing despite what most people think. At least there are shitty explanations of why Finn didn't get stomped where Rey's part has none.

LOL @ "fan-film tier oneness mid-duel meditation shit".

Stormtroopers have a background in melee training, and we see that Rey has some ability in combat far into the beginning of the film. Obviously, Ren isn't fully trained as iirc he mentions that, and Snoke even remarks that he needs to complete his training.

Why some of you are going full retard and assuming that he SUCKS, when he was injured and Rey has potential that mirrors lukes progression in the OT is really jumping the shark. Of course he isn't going to be amazing when he is only half trained, but Rey's ability to perform is simply her innate potential in the force being manifest.

Boom.

Originally posted by carthage
Stormtroopers have a background in melee training, and we see that Rey has some ability in combat far into the beginning of the film. Obviously, Ren isn't fully trained as iirc he mentions that, and Snoke even remarks that he needs to complete his training.

Why some of you are going full retard and assuming that he SUCKS, when he was injured and Rey has potential that mirrors lukes progression in the OT is really jumping the shark. Of course he isn't going to be amazing when he is only half trained, but Rey's ability to perform is simply her innate potential in the force being manifest.

He does suck. No matter how you slice it Kylo would get his shit pushed in by the Emperor, Darth Maul, Dooku, Vader, or Grievous. He is utterly underwhelming in comparison to any of the film villains, and honestly even with the benefit of the doubt can barely stack up to the villains in the animated series.

+ He comes across as a spoiled brat who cuts up parts of his Star Destroyer when he throws a tantrum. I laughed out loud for nearly all of his 'angry scenes'.

Where as with Vader he maintained his composure. Not saying Kylo can't have some of those moments where he loses his composer but the dude looked incompetent throughout the film.

No shit he'd get wasted by the absolute top tiers of the genre lmfao. He obviously doesn't have their training, hasn't shown any of their power in the force, and he hasn't even been on the screen for more than one film. We obviously know very little about his abilities, so its ****ing hilarious to compare him to juggernaut Sith like Vader and Maul.

If anything he should be close being the force feats we've seen from him, and being apart of Anakin's bloodline. If you're judging his performance by one film when he was injured and was facing an opponent of (possibly) greater force potential, than you may as well shit on Luke for losing his hand and being toyed with by Vader in Empire strikes back

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He does suck. No matter how you slice it Kylo would get his shit pushed in by the Emperor, Darth Maul, Dooku, Vader, or Grievous. He is utterly underwhelming in comparison to any of the film villains, and honestly even with the benefit of the doubt can barely stack up to the villains in the animated series.

+ He comes across as a spoiled brat who cuts up parts of his Star Destroyer when he throws a tantrum. I laughed out loud for nearly all of his 'angry scenes'.

Where as with Vader he maintained his composure. Not saying Kylo can't have some of those moments where he loses his composer but the dude looked incompetent throughout the film. He'd be no match for Ahsoka. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/2570579909.png

Judging harshly when it's way too early to judge ftw!

Originally posted by carthage
No shit he'd get wasted by the absolute top tiers of the genre lmfao. He obviously doesn't have their training, hasn't shown any of their power in the force, and he hasn't even been on the screen for more than one film. We obviously know very little about his abilities, so its ****ing hilarious to compare him to juggernaut Sith like Vader and Maul.

He's hyped in the databook and the movie to be the sole reason the Jedi Order was destroyed...again. Yes that's the point. He does suck right now. His martial prowess is pitiful. All you're doing right now is making excuses as to why he sucks, none of which I disagree with.



Dude he sucks. He fails at everything he does, the only success he has is killing a defenseless old man who was trying to help him.

Kylo:
+ Succeeds in capturing Poe
- Fails to capture the droid
+ Succeeds in capturing Rey
- Fails to extract any information and instead gets mind ****ed himself
- Then leaves ONE ****ING GUARD to protect her even though she just demonstrated mental power on par or superior to his own.
+ Kills Han
- Gets injured by Chewbacca
- Gets injured by Finn
- Gets handlily whooped by Rey
- Fails to prevent the Resistance from destroying Starkiller Base

It just feels like Kylo is ridiculously incompetent. When he shows up there isn't an 'oh shit just got real' feeling. He gets outwitted time and time again.

I don't care if Ren was trying to kill Rey or not, there's literally no excuse for him standing there while she moving-meditates. That had to be the most retarded part of the movie.

Anyhow, I get the impression that Kylo is around Ventress level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anyhow, I get the impression that Kylo is around Ventress level.

No way lol. Ventress was fully capable of defeating Jedi Masters and giving some of the finest Jedi in history close fights.

Wounded Ventress chokes out Kenobi and Skywalker at once.

Wounded Kylo gets his shit pushed in by Rey.

Nah, he's far more powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nah, he's far more powerful in the Force.

He's got way more force potential, I agree. But in a contest between the two of them, with Ventress at the peak of her power she wrecks him.

I'm sure he has more potential, but as far as realized power goes, he doesn't even compete. He has Tutaminis. That's about it. He got overpowered by Rey in TK. And no matter how much mystical, "This is yours like your father before you," bullshit there is, that's a fact.

I'm unsure as to how he stacks up to her as a combatant, but again he's vastly more powerful in the Force, and I'm not talking about potential.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm sure he has more potential, but as far as realized power goes, he doesn't even compete. He has Tutaminis. That's about it. He got overpowered by Rey in TK. And no matter how much mystical, "This is yours like your father before you," bullshit there is, that's a fact. Tutanimis? The guy is stopped blaster bolts in mid air which staid there while he casually went about his buisness, and repeatedly Force grips individuals without the need for a gesture. That seems beyond anything Ventress is capable of.

Uh, no, no that's not. And stopping a blaster bolt is Tutaminis.

Stopping a blaster bolt by absorbing the energy into your body is tutaminis, freezing one in mid air is nothing of the sort. EDIT: Which for the record has, to my memory, never been done by anyone, ever.

And the vast majority of Force users need to maintain a gesture/concentration to maintain a Force grip. Darth Caedus, Luke Skywalker and Vader are the only ones that come to mind that demonstrate a similar lack of such need.

Also, oneness Rey would beat Ventress and you know it

I hope we get some more TFA/Kylo Ren content before Episode 8 - or this debate is going to go on for years lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Stopping a blaster bolt by absorbing the energy into your body is tutaminis, freezing one in mid air is nothing of the sort. EDIT: Which for the record has, to my memory, never been done by anyone, ever.

And the vast majority of Force users need to maintain a gesture/concentration to maintain a Force grip. Darth Caedus, Luke Skywalker and Vader are the only ones that come to mind that demonstrate a similar lack of such need.
All energy manipulation is Tutaminis.

And choking randoms, even without gesturing doesn't change nearly untrained Rey overpowered him. Without bs plot reasons.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All energy manipulation is Tutaminis. Not according to any source I'm aware of, the Jedi Path describes it as "energy absorption, the ability to channel or diffuse potentially harmful radiation".

Regardless, it doesn't make the feat any more or less impressive.Right, while significantly injured, and with Rey experiencing some kind of burst of power we can't really at this stage quantify.

Anyway I'm not discussing his combat ability here, but his power in the Force. Him being overpowered by an untrained Rey doesn't change his impressive TK showings.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Regardless, it doesn't make the feat any more or less impressive.Right, while significantly injured, and with Rey experiencing some kind of burst of power we can't really at this stage quantify.

The fact that he's the only one to do it doesn't make it impressive either. It makes him ingenuitive. And no, Rey didn't have "some kind of burst of power." She just straight up overpowered him over an extended period of time. Hell, with the training of a five year old, she overpowered him in mental manipulation. It's far too late, if anything, for him to ever seem impressive by comparison.

That's actually exactly what it does, especially since his "impressive TK" is against muggles.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tutanimis? The guy is stopped blaster bolts in mid air which staid there while he casually went about his buisness, and repeatedly Force grips individuals without the need for a gesture. That seems beyond anything Ventress is capable of.


Yeah I don't think so man, Ventress is strong enough that Sidious ordered Dooku to execute her because she grew to powerful. I cannot see Sidious ordering Kylo excecuted because he grew too powerful. Ventress choking out Skywalker and Kenobi is way above anything Kylo has shown.

Well I'm going to agree to disagree at this point until we get more info.

However claiming Sidious wouldn't see Kylo as a threat is a pretty baseless and unlikely claim.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well I'm going to agree to disagree at this point until we get more info.

However claiming Sidious wouldn't see Kylo as a threat is a pretty baseless and unlikely claim.

He would because he's a Skywalker. But I highly doubt that if Dooku had Kylo as an assassin he'd contact him and say 'He's too stronk you need to kill him.' I just don't see it based on Kylo's portrayal.

He's a villain in training, trying, and failing very hard to be Darth Vader. Ventress, while also in training was capable of defeating Masters, and even when wounded was capable of choking out two top 5 multi-decades trained Jedi simultaneously.

Dark Side warriors typically show bursts of strength when wounded not weakness. The only thing I could potentially see as being harmful is him killing Han, but again based on his dialogue that seemed to suggest more on it empowering him.

Meh, I was much more swayed by Kylo's bursts of strength than his weaknesses, and his position as the First Order's first enforcer, the overall mirror between Vader & Sidious in him and Snoke, and his Skywalker heritage add to that.

For those reasons I'm inclined to believe Ren's performance against Rey and Finn was highly circumstantial and/or a result of lack of proper lightsaber training.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He does suck. No matter how you slice it Kylo would get his shit pushed in by the Emperor, Darth Maul, Dooku, Vader, or Grievous. He is utterly underwhelming in comparison to any of the film villains, and honestly even with the benefit of the doubt can barely stack up to the villains in the animated series.

+ He comes across as a spoiled brat who cuts up parts of his Star Destroyer when he throws a tantrum. I laughed out loud for nearly all of his 'angry scenes'.

Where as with Vader he maintained his composure. Not saying Kylo can't have some of those moments where he loses his composer but the dude looked incompetent throughout the film.

And yet, Kylo was a far more threatening villain then any of those sans Vader and Palaptine.

How so?

Let's just face it. Kylo Ren's a piker.

Saddest part is, as the son of Leia and Han, he's effectively Jacen Solo. And yet...not exactly Darth Caedus, is he?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Stopping a blaster bolt by absorbing the energy into your body is tutaminis, freezing one in mid air is nothing of the sort. EDIT: Which for the record has, to my memory, never been done by anyone, ever.

Yeah, that's a new power. And is one hell of a holy shit moment. Said power also seems to freeze his opponents as well.

It really isn't.

Anyway, comparing Kylo to Jacen is insulting to both Jacen and Kylo for various reasons.

Freezing opponents is just TK. The same sort of power that ragdolls people. Holding a blaster bolt in midair is the only really new thing he's done. Which was, admittedly, pretty cool. I was ready to give him some kudos till he got pwned so badly by Rey. If he'd won, he'd still have some respect points, but in losing...he pretty much lost 'em all.

It's pretty clear that Kylo is using the same power to freeze the blaster and his opponents. He is basically using stasis I guess.

It makes sense that he has new powers considering he is from some new DS branch rather than the Sith.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Freezing opponents is just TK. The same sort of power that ragdolls people. Holding a blaster bolt in midair is the only really new thing he's done. Which was, admittedly, pretty cool. I was ready to give him some kudos till he got pwned so badly by Rey. If he'd won, he'd still have some respect points, but in losing...he pretty much lost 'em all. Freezing people without maintaining a gesture is unusual even in the EU, and if I remember correctly doesn't the blaster bolt move only after Kylo has actually left?

Mmm, does suggest some kind of ability, even if it is a branch of TK.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I was much more swayed by Kylo's bursts of strength than his weaknesses, and his position as the First Order's first enforcer, the overall mirror between Vader & Sidious in him and Snoke, and his Skywalker heritage add to that.

For those reasons I'm inclined to believe Ren's performance against Rey and Finn was highly circumstantial and/or a result of lack of proper lightsaber training.

I have no doubt that in the next episode he'll live up to his hype a lot more. But as of right now I'm not impressed.

Originally posted by ares834
And yet, Kylo was a far more threatening villain then any of those sans Vader and Palaptine.

Not even close. Especially not if you count TCWs.

Dooku was threatening when he stomped Kenobi and Skywalker and then used force lightning which till that point we'd only really seen the Emperor use.

Maul was threatening by his sheer presence alone.

Kylo throws temper tantrums and is on the verge of comic relief at times.

Ren dies by masturbating to death once he sees Vader ignite his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not even close. Especially not if you count TCWs.

Dooku was threatening when he stomped Kenobi and Skywalker and then used force lightning which till that point we'd only really seen the Emperor use.

Maul was threatening by his sheer presence alone.

Kylo throws temper tantrums and is on the verge of comic relief at times.

There is so much more to a character begin threatening then being powerful. Dooku is powerful but he is far to, I dunno, gentlemanly to be truly threatening.

Maul wasn't in the movie nearly enough.

And while Kylo's tantrums were almost comedic, it showed how utterly unhinged this guy truly is. That he is completely insane was a big part in what made him frightening.

Vader stomps.

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader stomps.

After seeing the movie yea this.

Kylo stopping the blaster bolt in midair was hype as shit and he's clearly got some impressive force mastery with his telepathy and TK.

Personally I wasn't too hard on him for the duels. Chewies bowcaster is powerful as ****, a shot just near some stormtroopers sent them spinning through the air like they're goddamn power rangers and Ren got a direct hit. He pretty much kicked Finn's ass outside of Finn getting one lucky hit in, just like Luke got one hit on Vader despite being utterly outclassed. Then with Rey, firstly its obvious that she's much more powerful than him and is a complete Luke-esque prodigy and she'd spent the first half of the fight running away. The dudes bleeding pretty steadily and was injured by Finn. You look at the guys face and he looks like absolute shit, he's covered in sweat at that point. He'd be weakening from his wounds and exhaustion as the fight went on while she majorly rallied.

Also, I thought the fight was cooler and more thrilling than the PT fights. I liked how they were kind of going nuts on each other instead of the clean, tasteless choreography and how Finn and Kylo took tons of hits before going down.

Originally posted by ares834
There is so much more to a character begin threatening then being powerful. Dooku is powerful but he is far to, I dunno, gentlemanly to be truly threatening.

Maul wasn't in the movie nearly enough.

And while Kylo's tantrums were almost comedic, it showed how utterly unhinged this guy truly is. That he is completely insane was a big part in what made him frightening.



I like the scene where he goes apeshit and two stormtroopers walking up just turn around and walk away.

That he's so unstable made him more threatening to me than say, Dooku's polished, slightly bland manner. Or CW Mauls stock villainy. It was good to see a villain emote a real ****ing emotion for once.

Finn did better against him then he had any right to, and it knocks Kylo down a few pegs for me on the dueling ability side.

Comparing Finn to Luke doesn't work because Luke is a force user and by that point had had formal training in how to use his powers by one of the most venerable Jedi who'd ever lived. Finn on the other hand is just some dude*, and he actually put up a better fight then Rey did until she went super-sayan.


*As far as we know. 313 Super-Jedi Finn ****ing when.

There's really no excuse for Kylo's performance in TFA. There's enough to not make him terrible, but not nearly enough to make me respect him as a combatant.

Neph, Maul was pretty unstable in TCW. And Kreia was polished and bland in KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Finn did better against him then he had any right to, and it knocks Kylo down a few pegs for me on the dueling ability side.

Comparing Finn to Luke doesn't work because Luke is a force user and by that point had had formal training in how to use his powers by one of the most venerable Jedi who'd ever lived. Finn on the other hand is just some dude*, and he actually put up a better fight then Rey did until she went super-sayan.


*As far as we know. 313 Super-Jedi Finn ****ing when.

Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

And naw, even before then Rey did better than Finn. She was giving a lot of ground but that proved better than Finn's "get completely owned" style imo.

I agree though that they're probably going for more OT style fights where force users aren't all that great. Its a good move for the movies but Ren's not too impressive for these versus discussions atm.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, Maul was pretty unstable in TCW. And Kreia was polished and bland in KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, Maul was pretty unstable in TCW.

Up until he got his madness "cured", sure. But not in a threatening way. And afterwards he was unstable in that he was an extremely generic villain who snarled every line in a way that made it completely impossible to take him seriously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kreia was polished and bland in KOTOR 2.

Swing and a miss.

Kreia's blandness is more excusable because we actually get to know her. Same with Maul instability. Maul suffers more from not nearly enough character development than anything.

Neph,

So what you're saying is... Instability is a plus as long as it's not in a PT character. Gotcha.

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

I'm not sure about that- remember Luke was a rebel for a few years so he had combat training in there.



I think they may go more over-the-top, but only when we're talking fully trained people.


A wounded Knight of Ren is no Jedi/Sith!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph,

So what you're saying is... Instability is a plus as long as it's not in a PT character. Gotcha.

Care to elaborate?

No, what I'm saying is that as an actual villain in TCW, that is after he gets cured by Talzin, he isn't unstable at all. There's nothing unpredictable about him, quite the opposite. Everything he says and does is extremely predictable and generic as all shit. He's unstable because he's full of rage and hate and has a personal vendetta against someone. Oh snap! Never seen that before! Thats no more unstable than any bad guy ever. Kylo Ren actually felt like he could lose his shit at any point.

There's nothing polished and bland about her. I have no idea what you're talking about. She gets her hand cut off in the first level. She's rude, snide, sarcastic. She's incredibly bitter. She can even be affectionate at times. Her voice actress gives her a wealth of expression.

Dooku basically has one mode in both movies up until Anakin pwns him.

Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

And Kylo is... Original? lol

Ahhh. I didn't realize blandness was mitigated by snideness, sarcasm, and rudeness... You may want to revisit Dooku's duel with the Jedi in AOTC and unmute it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

Kreia is a pretty weak character all around, no doubt, but I'm just simply questioning some of the logic Neph offers. My theory is that you could have a character Neph claims to despise, put his name thru one of those online scramblers and give him an anagram, and drop him in a non-PT timeline (earlier the better) and Neph would treat you to six paragraphs about how deep and compelling he is.

Love ya, Neph, but we all know it's true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kylo is... Original? lol

Very much so. His backstory and design may be familiar but we've seen nothing similar to his characterization. A dark sider who is being "seduced" by the light and who actually wants to remain evil? I've seen very few villains like this, certainly not in SW.

Originally posted by ares834
Very much so. His backstory and design may be familiar but we've seen nothing similar to his characterization. A dark sider who is being "seduced" by the light and who actually wants to remain evil? I've seen very few villains like this, certainly not in SW.

lntriguing.

Isn't that Vader, though? Vader resists his connection to Luke until he absolutely can't bear it any longer.

I'd argue it's significantly different. RotJ Vader doesn't seem to want to remain a dark sider but he can't give it up. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master."

Kylo, on the other hand, is actually tempted by the light but want to remain a dark sider for whatever reason.

In the end, the two almost have opposite arcs (even though both are DSers) with Vader rejecting the dark and Kylo rejecting the light.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

And naw, even before then Rey did better than Finn. She was giving a lot of ground but that proved better than Finn's "get completely owned" style imo.

I agree though that they're probably going for more OT style fights where force users aren't all that great. Its a good move for the movies but Ren's not too impressive for these versus discussions atm. Finn has enough close-combat training to land a blow and hold his own against a super-human force user who can see things before they happen, but not enough to score a single hit and/or avoid getting his ass thoroughly destroyed by a random stormtrooper with a laser-tonfa?

I think you might be overstating any difference that might be there. The source material specifically says that Kylo wants to emulate Vader in every way EXCEPT from returning to the light, implying he identifies his struggle as being the same or similar to Vader's. We don't know that he truly wants to remain dark any more or less than Vader himself like any other addict. Vader didn't seek out Luke's redemption or anything: he even threatened to turn Leia.

Also, you can't speak to their arcs: Kylo's has just begun. He may end up redeemed at the end of the trilogy just like Vader.

BTW, I was flipping through the Art of TFA and Snoke's rough drafts were of a hooded and cloaked humanoid perched on a throne. Lmao.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

Is that supposed to be a criticism or.... or what?

Kreia being maimed is evidence that she's not some polished, bland *******. She's vulnerable. The first time we see her she's practically dead. The audience see's that she can falter and isn't some unflappable mary sue. And her dismissive attitude suggests her prejudiced, bitter nature. The game shows us that Kreia is a deeply flawed woman in a subtle, believable way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kylo is... Original? lol

Ahhh. I didn't realize blandness was mitigated by snideness, sarcasm, and rudeness... You may want to revisit Dooku's duel with the Jedi in AOTC and unmute it.

In that he's the first villain in SW since Vader with relate-able emotions, sure. I can't connect with Maul because he's literally just pure evil and that does nothing to me.

Dooku taunting Obi-Wan is just another part of his very stock character of the unruffled gentleman duelist. A general smug sense of superiority is the mode I was talking about. I just find it frankly boring. He doesn't show me anything to suggest that he's an actual character with actual thoughts and feelings. Kriea has a lot of actual charactisation that gives her a lot of personality.

It's called good writing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kreia is a pretty weak character all around

Holy shit, lol.

Kreia's the best written character in SW.

I'm sorry Neph, did you actually not watch TCW, or is Temp right? Think it's the latter. Lol@that being why Dooku is polished but Kreia isn't.

@ares: "It's too late for me, Son."-them tears.

Kylo's unique in that his problem isn't that he's "teh Chosen One's heir." It's that he wants to be, and sees how close Vader came to ruling the galaxy, but let his family get in the way. The obvious solution is to kill your family. That's pretty obvious in his Vader obsession. For all intents and purposes, Vader was a failure to Kylo, but even then, he doesn't match up, and all he does is struggle with both worlds. It's compelling if you ignore what's said in the movie and think about the concepts, which is pretty much how Star Wars in general is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I think you might be overstating any difference that might be there. The source material specifically says that Kylo wants to emulate Vader in every way EXCEPT from returning to the light, implying he identifies his struggle as being the same or similar to Vader's. We don't know that he truly wants to remain dark any more or less than Vader himself like any other addict. Vader didn't seek out Luke's redemption or anything: he even threatened to turn Leia.

Also, you can't speak to their arcs: Kylo's has just begun. He may end up redeemed at the end of the trilogy just like Vader.

BTW, I was flipping through the Art of TFA and Snoke's rough drafts were of a hooded and cloaked humanoid perched on a throne. Lmao.

Kylo seems to want to emulate Vader because of his strength and the fact that Vader is his grandfather.

Like I mentioned in my edit, their arcs are pretty much opposites. Vader's story is about his struggle with the darkness while Kylo's is with the light. It's why I really hope Kylo isn't redeemed.

As for Snoke, yes he seems to be Palpatine 2.0. Not a fan of what they are doing with him.

lol @ Neph

Omg she speaks in hushed tones when she's rude to ppl which conveys depth and nuance and dimension but Dooku has a booming voice and beardsword so when he does it he's just lame cardboard

PLUS SHE WAS MAIMED! DEPTH! she was maimed in a more maimy way than was Dooku

You're silly. I missed you.

Originally posted by ares834
Kylo seems to want to emulate Vader because of his strength and the fact that Vader is his grandfather.

Like I mentioned in my edit, there arcs are pretty much opposites. Vader's story is about his struggle with the darkness while Kylo's is with the light. It's why I really hope Kylo isn't redeemed.

As for Snoke, yes he seems to be Palpatine 2.0. Not a fan of what they are doing with him.

The point being that the character is DESIGNED to imitate his grandfather rather than strike out his own path. It seems to me that they share a similar struggle.

Anakin's story is a struggle with darkness, yes, but Vader's is very much a struggle with light.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm sorry Neph, did you actually not watch TCW, or is Temp right? Think it's the latter. Lol@that being why Dooku is polished but Kreia isn't.

It's a single example, lol. You want me to write an essay for you?

Can you seriously argue that Dooku isn't polished? That's like his entire thing. He's a distinguished gentleman who literally wears a cape. Kreia's whole thing is that she's a bitter, crazy old b*tch. What exactly is "polished" about her? That she speaks in a measured manner? She emotes a shitton more than Dooku.

That's the problem, Anakin and Vader are the same character. It's sorta the whole point about the OT. It's always a struggle with his inner darkness.

With that said, if we restrict it the the Vader in the OT the characters are still very different. Their personality, their apparent motivations, all of it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol @ Neph

Omg she speaks in hushed tones when she's rude to ppl which conveys depth and nuance and dimension but Dooku has a booming voice and beardsword so when he does it he's just lame cardboard

PLUS SHE WAS MAIMED! DEPTH! she was maimed in a more maimy way than was Dooku

You're silly. I missed you.

I love how defensive you get when someone criticises your favs. Like I said, I'm not writing you an essay on Kreia's character step by step. You want to prove that Dooku's a good character then you're welcome to. Or you can prove that Kreia is "polished and bland" in the same way.

Dooku gets maimed 3 seconds before he dies. It doesn't give him a lot of time to inspire a reaction in me. And even then, as I alluded to, his genuine shock and horror at that point is better than pretty much any other scene he's in. And he still under-emotes. My point was that right at the start of the game Kreia is established as vulnerable and fallible. And that she lets her bitterness and prejudices rule her and several times "blind" her (lol) when she's shown to be flat out wrong or making foolish assumptions. So what exactly is polished about her. Seems to me you just don't like her voice.

I don't understand how anyone can compare this new guy to the villains of PT. Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, those are slow. Also, I don't thin there are instances in the OT or ST where fire from several opponents is being deflected.

It's a sword. Finn's exceptional among soldiers who have been bred for combat and trained since birth.

Force users are (in this case) just humans! Humans who have achieved mastery over the mysterious energy that all life forms possess. In TCW perhaps.

I highly doubt its a sword lol

mysterious energy that gives them feats that are impossibly superior to ordinary people who shouldn't be able give them a fight.

They shouldn't be able to. Yet they always do. Vizla, Jango, Hondo, etc...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I love how defensive you get when someone criticises your favs. Like I said, I'm not writing you an essay on Kreia's character step by step. You want to prove that Dooku's a good character then you're welcome to. Or you can prove that Kreia is "polished and bland" in the same way.

Dooku gets maimed 3 seconds before he dies. It doesn't give him a lot of time to inspire a reaction in me. And even then, as I alluded to, his genuine shock and horror at that point is better than pretty much any other scene he's in. And he still under-emotes. My point was that right at the start of the game Kreia is established as vulnerable and fallible. And that she lets her bitterness and prejudices rule her and several times "blind" her (lol) when she's shown to be flat out wrong or making foolish assumptions. So what exactly is polished about her. Seems to me you just don't like her voice.

Nah, I've always told you that you're free to like what you like and dislike what you dislike without judgment. It's all subjective. I just cant help but tease you when you're so transparently biased. Historically, you're the one who gets defensive about such things. Remember how upset you used to get about the Joker and the Dark Knight and how things are objectively good and bad?

Good times.

Meh Dooku is a pretty polished character, and as far as the movies go he's pretty two dimensional. But that doesn't make him any less compelling or bland.

Flat characters exist in literature, Palpatine is a flat character - a stock archetypal Machiavellian villain - and yet he's still fantastic. A flat character's purpose is to act as foils to other rounded characters, and to embody certain characteristics, symbols etc.

Kylo Ren is much more rounded, complex and relatable, yes. But that doesn't make him a better character than Dooku any more than it makes him better than Palpatine, it just makes him different. He serves a different purpose in the story, namely to develop, much like Vader, and in that way engage the audience.

As far as Kreia goes, I would disagree with Tempest's comparison to Dooku. She's hardly two dimensional, she's incredibly flawed, complex, vulnerable and yeah I think relatable and she develops in important ways over the course of the story. Not that that again makes her intrinsically superior to Dooku, just different.

Let's just say you and I vaaaaaaaaastly disagree on Dooku and Kreia. But that's OK... Since this stuff always comes down to preference.

I only said that Dooku was slightly bland.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I've always told you that you're free to like what you like and dislike what you dislike without judgment. It's all subjective. I just cant help but tease you when you're so transparently biased. Historically, you're the one who gets defensive about such things. Remember how upset you used to get about the Joker and the Dark Knight and how things are objectively good and bad?

Good times.

Yeah, I'm biased. I'm biased because I don't think Dooku in the movies was a compelling villain. Like Beni said, he's flat and two dimensional. So I'm going to say that a character I do think was a strong villain was "more threatening to me" than Dooku. That's certainly what bias is. When you think that somethings bad and then you say that it's bad, that's being biased. I'm glad that we hashed this out, good talk.

The Kreia thing is just that you're flat out wrong and being silly. Thats it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I'm biased

We all know.