Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Fight takes place in Galen Marek's bicep

Force sabers all out

What are Trebor's feats?

Ren

Ren shits.

Coleman, as a master from the Council, might be able to resist a freeze attack. And then he stomps Kylo in a duel.

Originally posted by McP
And then he stomps Kylo in a duel. What saber feats does Trebor have?

He parried two Jango's shots. That's better then being hit by a guy who lost to other stormtrooper in a melee fight

well said

Ren stomps.

Ren stomps

Stomps? What if any trained Force user is able to block his freeze attack? His saber skills are perhaps above only of Ezra's or Shagi's

Originally posted by McP
Stomps? What if any trained Force user is able to block his freeze attack? His saber skills are perhaps above only of Ezra's or Shagi's

They aren't that bad. But Coleman Trebor wasn't a very martial Jedi in the least. I do think his force freeze is the most wanked thing in the mythos since Satele Shan blocked Malgus' saber with Tutaminis though.

Perhaps. It seems to be overrated indeed. Anyway, I believe they are. I can buy the fact, that Rey was able to give him some fight, especially when she was angry and he was injured. She's a Force sensitive, her raw power seems to be quite strong and he's a quic-learner. But there is nothing that can defend him for his pathetic showing against Finn. A former stormtrooper, defeated by other stormtrooper. And that was able to hit him. Really, that's below Ezra's showings in S2. Assuming that he was injured, perhaps he's a bit better then Ezra.

Apparently he was stated to be ****ing around with Finn before he got tagged, he was stated to be weakened by conflicting emotions, and he was stated to barely be able to stand because of his injuries.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
he was stated to barely be able to stand because of his injuries. I want to believe that but then several details in the fighting scene would be illogical like Kylo literally punching his wound.

Originally posted by Sinious
I want to believe that but then several details in the fighting scene would be illogical like Kylo literally punching his wound.

This. I want to believe in Kylo. And I have no doubt in the next film he'll be a beast. But as of now, whether it be shitty choreo or bad writing he looks awful feats wise.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This. I want to believe in Kylo. And I have no doubt in the next film he'll be a beast. But as of now, whether it be shitty choreo or bad writing he looks awful feats wise. Not to mention this whole thing costed us a proper fast paced duel like in TPM.

A "proper" fast paced duel... Oh lord.

If you prefer the prequel duels that's fine. But many of us prefer the sense of power and danger from duels like this rather than the elegant dances of the prequels.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ren stomps

I think the force wielders should fight like they're supposed to. I'm not suggesting uber CGI but they completely ignored the progression we saw in PT. It definitely had good elements in the dueling scenes that the OT naturally couldn't provide. Kylo was f'ing slower than Gimli from LOTR.

Originally posted by ares834
A "proper" fast paced duel... Oh lord.

If you prefer the prequel duels that's fine. But many of us prefer the sense of power and danger from duels like this rather than the elegant dances of the prequels.
Lulz, they were swinging sticks at each other in the woods. The only reason it can even be called a duel is by technicality. There was no power or danger in that. Rey's own skills is described as "raw at best." That's not what anyone, except you apparently, is looking for in a Star Wars duel. Not when people from Game of Thrones are choreographing them.

lol

lmfao what?

The duel was fantastic and my favorite in SW.

Like they are "supposed to"? How are they supposed to fight? Because I see two vastly different fighting styles between the original and the prequels. That Disney decided to go with Lucas's original intention rather is not a flaw of the film and doesn't make the duels "improper".

Originally posted by ares834
Like they are "supposed to"? How are they supposed to fight? Because I see two vastly different fighting styles between the original and the prequels. That Disney decided to go with Lucas's original intention rather is not a flaw of the film and doesn't make the duels "improper". Yeah, I'm sure Lucas would've filmed the OT duels today the same way he did with 30 years old technology.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lmfao what?

The duel was fantastic and my favorite in SW.
If Kylo Ren never had a mask and Rey wasn't played by Daisey Ridley, you'd be going on and on about how it lacked _______.

Except he did (he didn't even have the mask for the fight). And she was.

And when I watched the fight I was fully engaged with every swing and clapped, along with my audience, when Finn scored a hit against Ren.

And the Rey vs Ren fight was just totally fantastic, especially their bladelock with the camera looking up at them. When she won the audience went wild.

It was the best fight in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah, I'm sure Lucas would've filmed the OT duels today the same way he did with 30 years old technology.

Oh, nice little strawman. That's why I specifically said Lucas's original intention. He envisioned lightsabers to be heavy weapons. He even wanted Mark to almost always wield it with two hands, despite the fact that Mark and the choreographers wanted to use the saber one handed at times.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except he did (he didn't even have the mask for the fight). And she was.

And when I watched the fight I was fully engaged with every swing and clapped, along with my audience, when Finn scored a hit against Ren.

And the Rey vs Ren fight was just totally fantastic, especially their bladelock with the camera looking up at them. When she won the audience went wild.

It was the best fight in Star Wars.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
https://blazeti.me/topkek/top.png

Alright well, you be you and continue on with your Kylo Ren sucks brigade.

I'll be over here thinking Kylo Ren is a greater villain than Darth Vader (most famous villain ever), comparable if not more powerful in the movie format, and already has the best fight in the franchise.

Originally posted by ares834
Oh, nice little strawman. That's why I specifically said Lucas's original intention. He envisioned lightsabers to be heavy weapons. He even wanted Mark to almost always wield it with two hands, despite the fact that Mark and the choreographers wanted to use the saber one handed at times. And none of this is actually relevant. We've seen how force users are depicted and know what they should be capable of. These people can deflect blaster bolts with their weapons ffs. Do you even believe Kylo fighting the way he did makes sense?

Yes.

Originally posted by Sinious
And none of this is actually relevant. We've seen how force users are depicted and know what they should be capable of. These people can deflect blaster bolts with their weapons ffs. Do you even believe Kylo fighting the way he did makes sense?

Yes.

Then it's too late for you.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Alright well, you be you and continue on with your Kylo Ren sucks brigade.

I'll be over here thinking Kylo Ren is a greater villain than Darth Vader (most famous villain ever), comparable if not more powerful in the movie format, and already has the best fight in the franchise.
Right. It doesn't have shit to do with Kylo being terrible and a lot more to do with he's obviously below Vader in every way, which is his entire character for a good half of the movie, and that their brawl in the woods isn't the the best duel in Star Wars. The range between "Sucks dick" and "Would suck its dick" is as vast as an ocean.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think the force wielders should fight like they're supposed to. I'm not suggesting uber CGI but they completely ignored the progression we saw in PT. It definitely had good elements in the dueling scenes that the OT naturally couldn't provide. Kylo was f'ing slower than Gimli from LOTR.

"Supposed to"? GTFO man.

Sorry I have this stupid habit where I don't ignore technological progression and logical depiction of characters with extraordinary powers.

Originally posted by Sinious
Sorry I have this stupid habit where I don't ignore technological progression and logical depiction of characters with extraordinary powers.

Agreed

Honestly I didn't think there was much of a difference in terms of speed compared to the cartoons and movies. Kylo simply used his saber more as a heavy weapon with power attacks. Doesn't make him shit.

The fact that Ren could even stand up after taking a blast from Chewies cannon is extraordinary tbh.

^Arguably the worst moment in any SW duel ever.

Well, it was my favorite, so https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brjVfLwSCF4&t=0m48s.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
^Arguably the worst moment in any SW duel ever.

Windu vs Sidious was infinitely more embarrassing.

Also it was obvious that Kylo knows more about Rey then he let on. Calling his actions dumb when he don't know all the context is itself, very foolish.

Well then, more evidence your tastes are shit, despite the fact that I also liked the general coreography of (most of) the TFA duels.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu vs Sidious was infinitely more embarrassing.

Also it was obvious that Kylo knows more about Rey then he let on. Calling his actions dumb when he don't know all the context is itself, very foolish.

The choreo is on par imo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The choreo is on par imo.

Holy shit.

Well, you're insane for that but can you really tell me that you think her closing her eyes for two seconds is as bad as "Nooooaa nooooo nO YOU WILL DIE!" Apart from the Vader NOOOO and Jar Jar thats easily the worst acting in any SW movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Holy shit.

Well, you're insane for that but can you really tell me that you think her closing her eyes for two seconds is as bad as "Nooooaa nooooo nO YOU WILL DIE!" Apart from the Vader NOOOO and Jar Jar thats easily the worst acting in any SW movie.

That's not part of the choreo lol

I'm solely talking about the duel, not the ensuing awful dialogue and force battle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu vs Sidious was infinitely more embarrassing.

Also it was obvious that Kylo knows more about Rey then he let on. Calling his actions dumb when he don't know all the context is itself, very foolish.

I agree. In the novel, when Rey calls the lightsaber to herself Kylo says, "It is you."

I'm a fan of the theory that it was Kylo who stranded Rey on Jakku as he was incapable of killing her when he massacred the Jedi. In fact, if you look at the vision, it seems the character Kylo kills is actually a KoR in the process of killing Rey.

Originally posted by ares834
I agree. In the novel, when Rey calls the lightsaber to herself Kylo says, "It is you."

I'm a fan of the theory that it was Kylo who stranded Rey on Jakku as he was incapable of killing her when he massacred the Jedi. In fact, if you look at the vision, it seems the character Kylo kills is actually a KoR in the process of killing Rey. That's actually really interesting. mmm

@ares:

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's not part of the choreo lol

I'm solely talking about the duel, not the ensuing awful dialogue and force battle.

You said moment. Rey focusing on the Force wasn't choreography either.

Yeah, the Windu/Sidious choreography was turrible. Kylo/Rey/Finn was better.

That's not saying much, though. And the "emotional" stakes were infinitely higher in that confrontation than Kylo/Rey/Finn ever was. {Since "emotion" is almost always what is referenced by those who favor OT depiction of duels.}

But many PT duels outstrip Kylo/Rey/Finn in terms of choreography, emotional stakes, or both.

Originally posted by ares834
I agree. In the novel, when Rey calls the lightsaber to herself Kylo says, "It is you."

I'm a fan of the theory that it was Kylo who stranded Rey on Jakku as he was incapable of killing her when he massacred the Jedi. In fact, if you look at the vision, it seems the character Kylo kills is actually a KoR in the process of killing Rey.


That is...very interesting. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/mmm.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
You said moment. Rey focusing on the Force wasn't choreography either.

No I didn't. That was new guy. I had no problem with Rey focusing on the force. I just didn't like some of the choreo. That being said I just rewatched Mace vs. Sidious without my rose colored glasses for the first time in a while and...yeah no it was horrible. Kylo, Finn Rey was better. But still not better than Duel of Fates, Clash of Heroes...or even Dooku's fights.

/Rey closes her eyes
/Kylo punches her in the face again instead of staring at her
/then ground collapses

Would have prefered that.

Also just to be clear I loved TFA. But it was by no means perfect.

Originally posted by Sinious
I want to believe that but then several details in the fighting scene would be illogical like Kylo literally punching his wound.

That struck me as a, 'C'mon, muscles, don't freeze,' move. I've pounded on non-cooperating body parts before.

Some say he was trying to use the pain to ramp himself up, or at least try to get used to the pain.

That's not really something someone barely able to stand would do though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Holy shit.

Well, you're insane for that but can you really tell me that you think her closing her eyes for two seconds is as bad as "Nooooaa nooooo nO YOU WILL DIE!" Apart from the Vader NOOOO and Jar Jar thats easily the worst acting in any SW movie. Honestly, "no you will die!" can somehow be justified. I mean, I guess Sidious had to push it and make Windu think he is too dangerous to be left alive so that Windu can attempt to kill him which would force Anakin to do something he cannot take back(like chop off Windu's hand) hence the line and the lightning attack. From solely a canon point of view, this could be the reason why Palpatine said that and said it in a weird way. It's still bad but doesn't really harm the story like the Finn/Rey/Kylo scene.

Originally posted by Sinious
That's not really something someone barely able to stand would do though.
Except it worked.

Except the scene didn't.

Look, man, I've been shitting on Kylo since the movie released, and even I think Kylo vamping up to go ham was hella dope. Him approaching Finn before absolutely destroying him was also fantastic. One of the best scenes in the film.

Regardless of whether you think Kylo went down like a *****, does anybody seriously think he loses this fight?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Look, man, I've been shitting on Kylo since the movie released, and even I think Kylo vamping up to go ham was hella dope. Him approaching Finn before absolutely destroying him was also fantastic. One of the best scenes in the film. I never criticized this part of the scene. My point is that it doesn't make sense for someone barely able to stand to behave the way he did in the film.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Apparently he was stated to be ****ing around with Finn before he got tagged, he was stated to be weakened by conflicting emotions, and he was stated to barely be able to stand because of his injuries.


The conflicting emotions if fine. The rest was just a retarded way to force a Saber duel against Ren into this movie. Definitely my most hated part of this movie just behind the Death Star rip off.


Anyway he stomps in this fight. As he does in the Kylo vs Kanan thread.

Originally posted by Sinious
That's not really something someone barely able to stand would do though.


Not quite 'barely able to stand,' but it is something someone trying to fight through a major wound would do.


I really liked that. I'm a big fan of when stuff lets people's wounds affect their performance.

Originally posted by Q99
Not quite 'barely able to stand,' but it is something someone trying to fight through a major wound would do.


I really liked that. I'm a big fan of when stuff lets people's wounds affect their performance. Someone said it is stated that he was "barely able to stand" so I was referring to that.

Me too. Like when a very powerful force user can't defeat a powerful force user because of it. This is something else though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The conflicting emotions if fine. The rest was just a retarded way to force a Saber duel against Ren into this movie. Definitely my most hated part of this movie just behind the Death Star rip off.


Anyway he stomps in this fight. As he does in the Kylo vs Kanan thread.

Stomps? Why? Trebor was possibly the most pathetic member of the Council, but still a Jedi Master during Order's prime. He wanted to face Dooku, but had to fight Fett at first place, which he wasn't ready for. And still, he was killed by a finest bounty hunter in the whole galaxy. And Kylo got hit by a former stormtrooper, who was baten by another stromtrooper (let alone theirs leader - a Brienne of ****in Tarth).

If Kylo will be forced to lightsaber duel, he may die. The onlu question is is Trebor's Force guard strong enough to protect him against Kylo's Force attacks?

Originally posted by Sinious
I never criticized this part of the scene. My point is that it doesn't make sense for someone barely able to stand to behave the way he did in the film.
Except that's exactly how we expect a Sith to act? You know, channeling pain and adrenaline into power? Sounds like bitching to ***** to me.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except that's exactly how we expect a Sith to act? You know, channeling pain and adrenaline into power? Sounds like bitching to ***** to me. Give me an instance where a barely standing Sith exploited his wounds like that you dumb f***

Give me an example of a barely standing Sith doing anything besides dying? "Oh no, Kylo makes all these other Sith look bad by actually being able to do shit."

You're being silly. DMB said it is stated that he was barely able to stand. He didn't appear that way in the movie and that particular detail also supported this. Don't argue just to argue.

He struggled to stand at first...

Originally posted by Sinious
You're being silly. DMB said it is stated that he was barely able to stand. He didn't appear that way in the movie and that particular detail also supported this. Don't argue just to argue.
Lulz, like NewGuy said. It's not like he could hardly move for the rest of the movie. You're just being obtuse now.

Originally posted by McP
Stomps? Why? Trebor was possibly the most pathetic member of the Council, but still a Jedi Master during Order's prime. He wanted to face Dooku, but had to fight Fett at first place, which he wasn't ready for. And still, he was killed by a finest bounty hunter in the whole galaxy. And Kylo got hit by a former stormtrooper, who was baten by another stromtrooper (let alone theirs leader - a Brienne of ****in Tarth).

If Kylo will be forced to lightsaber duel, he may die. The onlu question is is Trebor's Force guard strong enough to protect him against Kylo's Force attacks?

Yeah except he was seriously wounded.

I doubt someone like Trebor could tank Ben's Force Powers.

Here's a thing, the novel people are rarely told the fight choreography, so while they knew the general beats, they may not have known *where* the wound was.

A shot to the side is one of the more inconveniencing places to be hit in a sword fight, almost all your attacks and blocks use the muscles around you middle. That's a really hard-to-fight-with hit he took, especially since he had to go through *two* fights with that wound.

Well, hard to tell, since we had not see him using his powers against any, at least moderate-skilled, combatant.

And yeah, he was wounded, but Finn should be a non-facotr anyway.

Kylo can stop blaster bolts
Trebor reflected blaster bolts into his chest

That's good enough to say they aren't comparable in the slightest of ways.

Yeah I've seen things from Kylo that Trebor can't do, but I've seen nothing from Trebor that Kylo can't do.

It was one, long shot, when Kylo stoped it. Hard to tell, if he would be able to do that iif he would be at Trebor's place. Really short distance and three fast shots.

Dude, Trebor can't ****ing do that.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah I've seen things from Kylo that Trebor can't do, but I've seen nothing from Trebor that Kylo can't do.

Dying to Jango. I dunno if Kylo can do that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, the Windu/Sidious choreography was turrible. Kylo/Rey/Finn was better.


The entire fight of Sidious in his office was cringeworthy. Especially his "I will pull the blade backwards, hold it for two seconds and then stab you" movement, which still took people "by surprise".



You do really want to argue something like "personal emotions"? I don't see much "emotion" in the Mace/Sidious duel - at least not from the perspective of the audience. Mace was just some side-character and Sidious just murdered three people the audience had next to zero connection with, where Kylo just killed Han Solo, one of the series protagonists and - apparently - injured / killed Finn, one of the movies protagonists. I don't see how that - from the view of the audience - would be less "emotional" than Mace vs. Sidious.



"Many?"
The only PT duel that outstrips Kylo/Rey/Finn in both choreography and emotional stakes is Anakin vs Obi-Wan. One may add the seconds that Obi-Wan fights Maul after Qui-Gon's defeat.

The rest? Certainly better looking choreography, given that we have way more "physical" actors involved or CGI fights (Yoda vs Sidious / partly Anakin vs Dooku). The office fight in RotS being a big exception.

And people may want to get the hang on the fact that rather huge parts of the PT duels are completely senseless from the perspective of a swordfighter. One might point to Maul's acrobatics or that abysmal sequence in the Anakin-Obi-Wan-Duel, where they essentially stand in front of eachother, twisting their blades in circles behind their backs. In that regard, the "choreography" of TFA is - at the very least - more realistic. Especially, if we consider that we see two "newbies" and a heavily injured contestant fighting here. Hell. I was wondering, how Kylo even remained on his legs after eating that blaster shot...

I will mention- taking a Bowcaster shot and still being able to fight at all is a pretty impressive toughness feat. Remember the damage we saw that thing do.

Originally posted by McP

And yeah, he was wounded, but Finn should be a non-facotr anyway.

I disagree, a highly skilled mundane putting up a fight *but losing* to a heavily wounded incompletely trained force user makes sense to me.


I mean, Jango Fett has killed padawans with his bare hands, Cad Bane has done HtH stuff vs Kenobi without immediately dying, etc.. Finn's a very talented fighter, his problems as a Stormtrooper were in his conscience and hesitance.

^ Nai I take it you enjoyed the final duel then.. What are your thoughts on the movie?



Originally posted by Q99
I will mention- taking a Bowcaster shot and still being able to fight at all is a pretty impressive toughness feat. Remember the damage we saw that thing do.





True but I would just like to point out (relevant if discussing his durability at some point) that he did have metal armor around that area.

Idk Kylo Ren is a total lightweight lost to someone with no lightsaber/force experience and got wounded by a stormtrooper. Trebor didint do anything but die against Fett so I would go with Ren since he has basic force abilites like deflecting blaster bolts but is a horrible fighter.

Originally posted by Agusto Pinochet
Idk Kylo Ren is a total lightweight lost to someone with no lightsaber/force experience and got wounded by a stormtrooper.


Yes but he was seriously wounded. I'm not sure why people don't get that.

It was a stupid fight to put into the movie, but let's not just ignore context.