Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

WARNING!

This thread contains spoilers for Star Wars VII TFA. If you have not seen it, do not enter this post (in fact don't et on the internet, I had to do that).

Kylo Ren is not injured. Savage in his prime. Ren as of the end of TFA (but not injured in any way). Starting distance 20 meters. Battlefield is Vjun. Who wins?

Savage.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Savage.

Yeah Savage. If he gets injured, he is gonna go all tk tank.

We haven't seen what Ren is capable of uninjured. I'd say Savage takes him injured.

Kylo Ren wins.

Savage wrecks. Unlike pussy Ren who gets hindered by one blaster bolt, Savage shrugs off the shots of an infantry platoon.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Savage wrecks. Unlike pussy Ren who gets hindered by one blaster bolt, Savage shrugs off the shots of an infantry platoon. Did Savage tank a bow caster shot ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did Savage tank a bow caster shot ?

Savage took no less than 15 blaster shots. >>>>1 bow caster shot.

I doubt it. ^

Savage did have armor at least. Kylo took that shot straight on right to the gut with jack shit protecting his body.

Savage wins, but it's not an easy victory

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Savage did have armor at least. Kylo took that shot straight on right to the gut with jack shit protecting his body.
Yeah, tell that to the storm troopers

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Savage did have armor at least. Kylo took that shot straight on right to the gut with jack shit protecting his body.

Pretty sure he had metal plating protecting that area.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Pretty sure he had metal plating protecting that area. Did he?

Nope.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Savage took no less than 15 blaster shots. >>>>1 bow caster shot.

Thats not how it works. One big shot penetrates and does a ton of damage compared to a ton of small shots that do next to nothing.

Savage.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Savage wrecks. Unlike pussy Ren who gets hindered by one blaster bolt, Savage shrugs off the shots of an infantry platoon. In the same spot?

Anyway Kylo seems a better duelist and stronger Force user tbh, he wins.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kylo seems a better duelist

:7

The hype he received indicates to me he's been trained to a higher level of skill.

Granted it hasn't been demonstrated, by Savage hasn't demonstrated much skill either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The hype he received indicates to me he's been trained to a higher level of skill.

Granted it hasn't been demonstrated, by Savage hasn't demonstrated much skill either.

Fighting off Council Members is better then losing to an untrained force user and being challenged by a non force sensitive even after being injured.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Savage took no less than 15 blaster shots. >>>>1 bow caster shot. Post the clip.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fighting off Council Members is better then losing to an untrained force user and being challenged by a non force sensitive even after being injured. Right, except you have no idea how Savage would have fared under those circumstances. Nor do you have any proof of Ren can't hold off Plo Koon & defeat Adi Gallia at full strength.

@Tempest granted, but it seems pretty unlikely that of all Luke's students were poor duelists, I'd assume at this point average to above-average talent, where Savage's dueling skills are serviceable at best. My gut feeling is that Kylo is the better duelist, though admittedly we lack sufficient information to say anything concrete.

Savage's main advantage would be his strength and endurance, but those seem his only distinct advantages.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor do you have any proof of Ren can't hold off Plo Koon & defeat Adi Gallia at full strength.
Terrible argument. You can't prove a negative.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Terrible argument. You can't prove a negative. I won't even bother lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Tempest granted, but it seems pretty unlikely that of all Luke's students were poor duelists,

It seems even less likely that they were swordsmen on par with the best of the old Jedi order.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd assume at this point average to above-average talent, where Savage's dueling skills are serviceable at best.

The Clone Wars Episode Guide says that Savage's abilities increased since his time as Dooku's "apprentice," and visually, we see Savage acquit himself quite well against Jedi Council members in terms of technique. It's not like he just incoherently thrashed against Anakin, Obi-Wan, Adi Gallia, etc like Luke did against Vader in the last moments of their duel, overpowering them through sheer brute force. He kept up in pretty much every respect.

I think you're shortchanging Savage's skills in the grand scheme of things pretty badly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My gut feeling is that Kylo is the better duelist, though admittedly we lack sufficient information to say anything concrete.

Savage's main advantage would be his strength and endurance, but those seem his only distinct advantages.

Savage has the feats and accolades to compete with Kylo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Post the clip.

I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.

dmbMZyvdYtM

Begins around 1:15

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It seems even less likely that they were swordsmen on par with the best of the old Jedi order.Certainly not, but Savage went toe-to-toe with then largely out of strength and power, not skill. Kylo's supremacy over the Luke's Jedi Order is explicitly attributed to his "deadly skill" with a lightsaber.Certainly there is an element of skill involved, but I think his performance is largely attributable to brute force. Shadow Conspiracy states in terms of Adi that "all her skill" was "no match for his enormous strength" and Anakin & Kenobi, both brilliant duelists in their own right, are depicted to be clearly incapable of handling Savage's rage-amped strength.I'm not saying Savage can't compete with Kylo as far as dueling skill is concerned, simply that Kylo is likely better.But not win.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.

dmbMZyvdYtM

Begins around 1:15 Those blasts are still less powerful than the crossbow caster. Did Savage even bleed there ?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fighting off Council Members is better then losing to an untrained force user and being challenged by a non force sensitive even after being injured.
Burrrnn

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly not, but Savage went toe-to-toe with then largely out of strength and power, not skill.

Again, he visually demonstrates sufficient skill to keep up with them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kylo's supremacy over the Luke's Jedi Order is explicitly attributed to his "deadly skill" with a lightsaber.

Again, we have absolutely no idea how skilled or powerful these Jedi were, which makes it much less resonant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly there is an element of skill involved, but I think his performance is largely attributable to brute force. Shadow Conspiracy states in terms of Adi that "all her skill" was "no match for his enormous strength"

Which only implies that his "enormous strength" was his singular decisive advantage over her... which would still be the case if their skill levels were absolutely even, which no one is even implying.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
and Anakin & Kenobi, both brilliant duelists in their own right, are depicted to be clearly incapable of handling Savage's rage-amped strength.

But again, Savage isn't simply spastically thrashing at them incoherently and driving them back. He's visually displaying the same sort of prowess and technique that other masterful Jedi and Sith display against them. To me, beating someone down simply due to sheer strength would be like Anakin's duel with Dooku in TCW on Naboo, where he kicks Dooku to the ground and starts hammering at him with his blade.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not saying Savage can't compete with Kylo as far as dueling skill is concerned, simply that Kylo is likely better.

That's a pretty generous contention and one that's not necessarily wrong, but hardly one that is heavily supported.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But not win.

Well, isn't that what compete implies? A viable chance of victory? As I've discussed with Darth Thor before, I don't know how you can truly compete against someone by dint of accolade and feat and not have a chance to take them down.

I don't believe for a second that Savage can't beat Kylo. Whether or not he would take a majority of encounters is up for debate, but he definitely has a shot imo.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Did he?



https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kylo+ren&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1264&bih=738&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2& amp;%20ved=0ahUKEwjWyOPviPPJAhXDRhQKHX2xBTYQ_AUIBi
gB#%20ved=0ahUKEwjWyOPviPPJAhXDRhQKHX2xBTYQ_AUIBig
B&imgr<br%20/>c=-kczQyep6OEHTM%3A&imgrc=MFQkZIsy-2xlbM%3A


^ Isn't the big belt he's wearing metal? And around the part he got hit?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor do you have any proof of Ren can't hold off Plo Koon & defeat Adi Gallia at full strength.

0-o

You're using absence of evidence to justify Ren being on Savage's skill level?

...

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.

dmbMZyvdYtM

Begins around 1:15


Yeah I'd defo go with Savage for durability. He took a lot of shots there, and still managed to Force Wave all the those droids and 2 Jedi to the floor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Those blasts are still less powerful than the crossbow caster. Did Savage even bleed there ?

No one bled from blaster wounds in Star Wars until this movie.

bLjb6DYoU5s


Here Savage takes a blow at :18, even grunts in pain but just keeps on going and wrecks a Jedi Master.

Holy shit, Beni. Give me some of what you're on so I can understand what went through your mind in this thread, before I overdose to cleanse myself of this madness.
Savage wins, he's the better fighter. There's nothing to suggest Kylo even has a technical advantage (mastering the Sabersraff and taking on the best CW duelists going after just weeks of Force training, anyone?) , which is funnily enough the least important aspect of dueling in Star Wars anyway. Force-aided lightsaber ability is almost always the dictator, and Savage quite evidently has barrels of it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No one bled from blaster wounds in Star Wars until this movie.

bLjb6DYoU5s


Here Savage takes a blow at :18, even grunts in pain but just keeps on going and wrecks a Jedi Master. So ? Ren clearly bled and was affected. Opress wasn't significantly effected at all.

Savage stomps lol

Originally posted by Based
Savage stomps lol False.

lol

There isn't enough info to properly assess it.

Savage