Falcon vs. Two-Face

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StiltmanFTW
No wings or shield for Falcon.

No guns for Dent.

Pure hand-to-hand combat.

riv6672
Was going to blow this one off, as i have no strong opinion on it, but, i'm curious...

...does Dent have some h2h feats/skills i may be unaware of? While i dont rank Falcon in the top 10 (more like top 200) of MU MAs, i would think he'd be comfortably above Dent.

StiltmanFTW
Dent has destroyed Killer Croc. Waylon is a huge jobber of course, but still... a very good feat.

StiltmanFTW
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/46385/2767671-oyl1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/46385/2767672-oyl2.jpg

riv6672
Thats not Two Face! That man is...handsome! eek!

Seriously thats impressive/embarrassing for Dent/Croc respectively, but, its not like Dent kung fu fought him to death. That showed more sticktoitiveness than skill.

StiltmanFTW
Agreed.

Apparently he showed some good speed & strength here, being able to stick that bottle in Croc's eye before he could react and choking him out despite his super-tough skin.

PS. In Civil War, there is a photo on Daily Bugle's front page which shows Cap's illegal Avengers group beating Sinister Six, with Falcon punching the Lizard. That punch seemed to affect Connors more than some of Spider-Man's blows, just saying. Just 1 panel with no context, but one of Falcon's best showings nonetheless...

abhilegend
Dent also killed KGBeast in h2h IIRC.

riv6672
The Daily Bugle, like abhi, is never wrong; i'm really torn here.

deathslash
Originally posted by abhilegend
Dent also killed KGBeast in h2h IIRC. yeah, but he was a joke by that point in time. The guy that beat batman down on two separate occasions nearly getting killed by a venomless bane?

StiltmanFTW
To be fair... venomless Bane is a monster, he has a shitload of great showings without it.

Hell, you could say he became more formidable after he quit his addiction. Just look what he did to Azrael.

abhilegend
A venomless Bane also overpowered Captain America in h2h and was about to snap his back.

Non canon of course. But it should give you an idea how writers view him.

riv6672
Oh my.

abhilegend
Originally posted by deathslash
yeah, but he was a joke by that point in time. The guy that beat batman down on two separate occasions nearly getting killed by a venomless bane?
Uh huh.

On an off topic, I read Ten nights of the beast again recently and it was ****ing awesome. As I remembered.

riv6672
I just watched the movie The Falcon & The Snowman, and it too was awesome.

It also convinced me Falcon'd beat up Mr. Freeze h2h as well as Dent.

deathslash
Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh huh.

On an off topic, I read Ten nights of the beast again recently and it was ****ing awesome. As I remembered. thumb up On that we can both agree. So sad to see them introduce a badass character and them have them job to high he'll until they die.

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
To be fair... venomless Bane is a monster, he has a shitload of great showings without it.

Hell, you could say he became more formidable after he quit his addiction. Just look what he did to Azrael.
yEP SEE HERE
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
I was on Hero chat and came across a battle, where this user provided plenty of Bane feats. He also said that all of them were pre-52 Bane without Venom. I find that hard to swallow. Is it? The posts are given below
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=620458

StiltmanFTW
Original respect thread by Supermutant:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t512852.html

Revamped thread by the same guy (unfinished, lol):

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t613206.html

riv6672
So, the point here us, beating Bane trumps any h2h feat Falcon's ever shown?
I'd like to argue but thats pretty solid abc logic.
Still, i have to think a Cap trained character is over a former DA, even if his feats are usually airborne.

BruceSkywalker
Sam dies at the hands of Harvey

riv6672
^^^Yeah i'm convinced.
Falcon wins.

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Original respect thread by Supermutant:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t512852.html
Revamped thread by the same guy (unfinished, lol):
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t613206.html
Despite the totality of these threads, I believe the descriptions in my thread were better stick out tongue

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh huh.

On an off topic, I read Ten nights of the beast again recently and it was ****ing awesome. As I remembered.

right near the top of my fave batman arcs. thumb up

anyway, 2 face has some good feats, but bats has made him look like in idiot in h2h at times. i think in general, sam's the safe bet here, but harvey could get a couple maybe.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by riv6672
So, the point here us, beating Bane trumps any h2h feat Falcon's ever shown?
I'd like to argue but thats pretty solid abc logic.
Still, i have to think a Cap trained character is over a former DA, even if his feats are usually airborne.

No. Bane was brought up just as a side-effect; typical off-topic going on here. At least it keeps the thread (and the forum) alive.

Delta1938
Originally posted by riv6672
So, the point here us, beating Bane trumps any h2h feat Falcon's ever shown?
I'd like to argue but thats pretty solid abc logic.
Still, i have to think a Cap trained character is over a former DA, even if his feats are usually airborne.

So.....what has Falcon done?

Flyattractor
Before his CA Upgrade. Jobbed and stood in the back ground to add "Color".

DarkSaint85
I honestly can't think of any Falcon feats without his wings or shield.

At least Dent has something,....

riv6672
Originally posted by Delta1938
So.....what has Falcon done?
Its like you read what i say, but ignore it to ask a question i basically answered.
I said the logic in favor of Dent was solid.
I said i think a Cap trained character should be above someone like Dent, BUT, that isnt really proof on my part, i'm admitting that.
Because...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I honestly can't think of any Falcon feats without his wings or shield.

At least Dent has something,....

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I honestly can't think of any Falcon feats without his wings or shield.

He tried to beat up Spider-Man.

Emphasis on "tried". Connected multiple times, but it did nothing...

riv6672
^^^no shame in that.
Spidey is so far above Falcon, strength wise, an attack by Falcon might conceivably look like this.

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w344/riv6672/image_zpsekl2ieea.jpg

In a running battle, Falcon landing blows would likely cause Spidey to "move", comics being a visual medium and all, but without extenuating circumstances, there should really be no damage.

StiltmanFTW
Yes, agreed.

At least Sam wasn't giving up; I have to give him that... but many other streets have performed better.

He did rock Lizard with a punch who is much more durable than Spidey, though wink

Delta1938
Originally posted by riv6672
Its like you read what i say, but ignore it to ask a question i basically answered.
I said the logic in favor of Dent was solid.
I said i think a Cap trained character should be above someone like Dent, BUT, that isnt really proof on my part, i'm admitting that.
Because...

Perhaps if you spent less time justifying your general refusal to debate and actually backed your argument more, I would've noticed you just THINK he should win, instead of you holding information because..... your whole weird thing about being in a debate forum and for whatever reason not debating.

I was genuinely curious about what Falcon had done. Only thing I saw him do was beat-up some No-Name Neo-Nazi thugs Cap had somehow trained despite being in zombie like mind control.

riv6672
I cant help (and dont care) if you dont like how i conduct my business here, Delta.
At this point, it actually amuses me to some extent that you seem fixated on it.

Anyhow, looks like Dent gets the win here. I'll try and not let that ruin my holiday. stick out tongue

Delta1938
Originally posted by riv6672
I cant help (and dont care) if you dont like how i conduct my business here, Delta.
At this point, it actually amuses me to some extent that you seem fixated on it.

Anyhow, looks like Dent gets the win here. I'll try and not let that ruin my holiday. stick out tongue

I guess you do just like watching yourself type then.

Well, guess you take extended holidays.

riv6672
^^^-insert amused smiley-

leonidas
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He tried to beat up Spider-Man.

Emphasis on "tried". Connected multiple times, but it did nothing...

did better against bones though....

https://i.imgur.com/ZVM1OgG.png

shifty

a little more seriously--he's got good (not great) h2h skills, and some really good durability feats since he became cap. dude had a bus smashed over his head and wasn't ko'd... nothing says he can't call in some avian help either, and those birds could easily f*** harvey up.

still don't see anyway to give harvey a majority, but....they're both b list so...yeah.

riv6672
He had a BUS smashed over his head? How the heck has this been a debate then?
I'd have led with that!

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by leonidas
did better against bones though....
https://i.imgur.com/ZVM1OgG.png
shifty

Yep. That's a nice kick he gave him here too
http://i.imgur.com/s6wwjoS.png

Originally posted by leonidas

a little more seriously--he's got good (not great) h2h skills, and some really good durability feats since he became cap. dude had a bus smashed over his head and wasn't ko'd... nothing says he can't call in some avian help either, and those birds could easily f*** harvey up.
still don't see anyway to give harvey a majority, but....they're both b list so...yeah.
Redwing would kill Harvey but he is not allowed to participate since this is a h2h match. IF Falcon has full access he would simple sit back and Harvey be bird-food

HulkIsHulk
And while he didn't do to hot in his fight with Armadillo and the new Cobra, he fought pretty well:
http://s3.postimg.org/llxnun573/p3_4_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/bd9s2k6j3/p3_5_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/bejpvz8cv/p3_6_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/9o0ouhqtr/p3_7_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/arkt6gbgv/p3_9_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/siwfkwqvj/p3_10_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/6xrcxau4v/p3_11_copy.jpg

deathslash
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Yep. That's a nice kick he gave him here too
http://i.imgur.com/s6wwjoS.png
wait a second, did he just punch bones through a stone pillar? Falcon dominates if that's the case.

riv6672
^^^Dont forget the bus!

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by leonidas
did better against bones though....

https://i.imgur.com/ZVM1OgG.png

shifty

All I see here is how he gets constantly trolled for being the worst Cap ever.

Bones probably was laughing too much during the fight and couldn't stay focused.

Haven't seen the bus scene. Did the shield protect him or what?

leonidas
http://imgur.com/a/Xlanx

and clearly they had sam beat bones off-panel so that the crossbones fanboys didn't all go jumping off bridges.... shifty

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by leonidas
http://imgur.com/a/Xlanx

and clearly they had sam beat bones off-panel so that the crossbones fanboys didn't all go jumping off bridges.... shifty
You know, the feat is in suspect since his new wings are laced with Vibranium evil face

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by deathslash
wait a second, did he just punch bones through a stone pillar? Falcon dominates if that's the case.
He used the shield though. And that thing is known add a hell of oomph for one's hits

leonidas
he'd still have the suit though i'd think. just no wings for defense or attack, and no shield....

DarkSaint85
No. Both are naked, oiled up.

leonidas
perv. sneer

riv6672
Oh this just took an interesting turn.

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
And while he didn't do to hot in his fight with Armadillo and the new Cobra, he fought pretty well:
http://s3.postimg.org/llxnun573/p3_4_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/bd9s2k6j3/p3_5_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/bejpvz8cv/p3_6_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/9o0ouhqtr/p3_7_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/arkt6gbgv/p3_9_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/siwfkwqvj/p3_10_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/6xrcxau4v/p3_11_copy.jpg
And he even draws blood from him here with his fists. Took two hits from him too
http://i.imgur.com/5kCdWml.png

HulkIsHulk
Falcon Cap breaks some chains he was tied up with
http://i.imgur.com/kODsj8I.png
http://i.imgur.com/9Hq8kQ1.png

Facee
Falcon was trained by Cap in H2H , nuff said.

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by Facee
Falcon was trained by Cap in H2H , nuff said.
So was MJ, and Dent would beat her to death

riv6672
^^^He could try.

HulkIsHulk
And he would win, everytime. As far I can recall, MJ doesn't have much decent h2h feats, except surprising Chameleon with a baseball bat. And if she gets webshooters, then per forums rules Dent gets his guns with which he shoots her dead

DarkSaint85
Are we forgetting Dent was trained by Batman?

And whilst we can all argue about who's the better combatant, what also matters is who is the better trainer.

Tyson in his prime won't be a great boxing trainer, for example.

Bats has a solid record of training people. Cap trains others SOMETIMES, but he's less dependent on it.

DarkSaint85
Dent kills a Werewolf, armed only with his coin stick out tongue

http://pics.livejournal.com/thehefner/pic/000e3336
http://pics.livejournal.com/thehefner/pic/000e4p9p
http://pics.livejournal.com/thehefner/pic/000e53wt

StiltmanFTW
Wow. Never seen that.

DarkSaint85
2008 Halloween special.

That werewolf was strong enough to throw an armed guard through metal bars in Arkham (so, presumably, pretty strong):

http://pics.livejournal.com/thehefner/pic/000e2e88

deathslash
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are we forgetting Dent was trained by Batman?

And whilst we can all argue about who's the better combatant, what also matters is who is the better trainer.

Tyson in his prime won't be a great boxing trainer, for example.

Bats has a solid record of training people. Cap trains others SOMETIMES, but he's less dependent on it. dent got training from batman for what, one month? Falcon has trained with cap for decades.

DarkSaint85
So Dent is fighting an 80 year old?

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are we forgetting Dent was trained by Batman?

And whilst we can all argue about who's the better combatant, what also matters is who is the better trainer.

Tyson in his prime won't be a great boxing trainer, for example.

Bats has a solid record of training people. Cap trains others SOMETIMES, but he's less dependent on it.
Just an aside, Batman invests massive amounts of time in training people, Cap not so much, so, when both put in equal time (i doubt he teained Dent to the extent he's trained any Robin, more likely the same amount Cap spends on someone, quick down and dirty basics) the results should be even.

DarkSaint85
True dat.

He only spent a month training Dent.

How long has Sam been training with Cap?

riv6672
True dat back at you.

HulkIsHulk
Two pages before the crossbones fight - Sam is fired at point blank by someone he thought he needed to protect. Sam manages to to barely dodge the bullet and tank the fall with some help from his wings:
http://s3.postimg.org/uv0j45v37/p2_6_copy.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/gpuq2cm1v/p2_7_copy.jpg
Originally posted by leonidas

and clearly they had sam beat bones off-panel so that the crossbones fanboys didn't all go jumping off bridges.... shifty
Wait, this is the fight you're talking about right:
http://i.imgur.com/Hqg2Ob0.png
http://i.imgur.com/gQUL7q4.png
http://i.imgur.com/BBHCxWo.png
http://i.imgur.com/EcW3xxu.png
confused

riv6672
Oh thats cool! thumb up

HulkIsHulk
Anyway, Sam oneshots Bones with a shield throw here:
http://s11.postimg.org/zb260n75v/p3_13_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/69xtr8mpv/p3_14_copy.jpg
And takes on Zemo and gets the better of him:
http://s11.postimg.org/4koqj670j/p3_15_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/ew5opko3n/p3_16_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/k8uj3pc03/p3_17_copy.jpg

HulkIsHulk
Unfortunately, Sam is stupid enough to turn his back on a enemy who has yet to be defeated, twice, but Sam overpowers Zemo again:
http://s11.postimg.org/apkua8ohv/p3_18_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/64ynvb4sj/p3_20_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/kpfqq4zr7/p1_2_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/on30fjmkj/p1_3_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/nyu5wlnur/p1_4_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/by8pvvgg3/p1_5_copy.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/d1su7u135/p1_6.jpg

HulkIsHulk
Also kicks a guy into a wall, cracking it and the guy's face:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140127/4000712-kicks+a+dudes+face+so+hard+it+cracks+concrete.jpg
Holds his own in arm wrestling against classic Cap:
http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2013/02/Captain_America193_02.jpg
Breaks out of some bonds and tackles William Burnside through several furniture pieces
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140127/4001055- breaks+out+of+being+tied+to+a+chair+and+tackles+an
+impersonation+of+cap.jpg
Breaks out of a giant living statue's grip (or thumb, but still impressive):
http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/kirby/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2010/01/cap202b.jpg
Punches Viper hard enough that he flies into a chimney with enough force to collapse parts of it
http://s18.postimg.org/g0iu9qihl/CA157_13a.jpg
Punches a guy hard enough to send him flying through a wooden door
http://s21.postimg.org/8pkwa5b3b/CA154_15a.jpg
Falcon holds his own against two superhumans for seem time:
http://s22.postimg.org/6dc0rcqs1/CA178_03a.jpg
http://s17.postimg.org/k0zbbizbj/CA178_03b.jpg
http://s4.postimg.org/3q54xzb71/CA178_05a.jpg
Thanks to the Herochat, Comicvine and Reddit respect threads of Falcon which helped me find these scans
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=5260.0
http://www.comicvine.com/falcon/4005-1451/forums/the-falcon-respect-thread-1588558/
https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/34hbvr/respect_sam_wilson_captain_america_marvel_616/

DarkSaint85
thumb up thanks HulkisHulk. Consider me impressed.

riv6672
He blinded us with science! huh

HulkIsHulk
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up thanks HulkisHulk. Consider me impressed.
Thank you. Appreciation from you is rare and valuable.
Originally posted by riv6672
He blinded us with science! huh
You always have to get in the last word do you? stick out tongue

riv6672
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk You always have to get in the last word do you? stick out tongue
....yes

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Holds his own in arm wrestling against classic Cap:
http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2013/02/Captain_America193_02.jpg

"TRY IT, WHITEY!" laughing out loud

Good to see some Falcon feats.

leonidas
next time louts, just take my word for it. sneer

riv6672
^^^no stick out tongue

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