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They're both good. As long as you don't have to watch the Lucas "Enhanced" editions, A New Hope is better. And yah:

Pretty much right on point

The one that changed the face of Hollywood forever is the better movie lol.

I'd say that in terms of a lot of measurable qualities TFA is the technically superior and more sophisticated movie. The character's are more interesting and have more personality than ANH's cast. The writing and dialogue is stronger, even if it doesn't have the same memetic qualities as "these aren't the droids you're looking for" or "thats no moon" or "help me Obi-Wan Kenobi". I think the direction is better and obviously it has better production values, special effects and fights scenes etc. It has a bunch of interesting themes and does a lot of clever things.

Does all this make it the better movie? Maybe, maybe not. TFA does in many ways benefit from the evolution of cinema and the SW franchise. Directly comparing the two one might prefer the more modern, less dated sequel. Or one might choose the charm of the original. It probably comes down to personal taste and how you respond to different factors.

Even the fanboys admit that The Force Awakens is a rip-off of A New Hope.

It's decent by itself, but when watched with the rest of the saga in context it's the worst of all Star Wars movies because it's a retelling of another movie the series.

What is the purpose of this thread?

Originally posted by Astner
Even the fanboys admit that The Force Awakens is a rip-off of A New Hope.

It's decent by itself, but when watched with the rest of the saga in context it's the worst of all Star Wars movies because it's a retelling of another movie the series.
A) Who is a fanboy and why?
B) What fanboy said it "ripped-off"
C) If you feel it's the worst Star Wars movie that's fine, it's your opinion. I wholeheartedly laugh at it because well, the prequels. But again, I can't argue with your opinion.

Originally posted by Astner
It's decent by itself, but when watched with the rest of the saga in context it's the worst of all Star Wars movies because it's a retelling of another movie the series.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tOJ0BeW5vXw/TPMTu5Ih5KI/AAAAAAAAAAM/DJp86ZUDrfg/s1600/Butthurt.PNG

I think TFA is the better movie from a technical perspective from its effect to choices in casting that may be due to the evolution of movie goers from the 70's to 2015 along with advances in technology in general. However ANH is a cultural icon that has mostly withstood the test of time and remains an entertaining flick to this day even though I don't think it has necessarily aged well and the special edition didn't really help it at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tOJ0BeW5vXw/TPMTu5Ih5KI/AAAAAAAAAAM/DJp86ZUDrfg/s1600/Butthurt.PNG
Originally posted by Astner
It's decent by itself,
Originally posted by Astner
It's decent by itself,
Originally posted by Astner
It's decent by itself,
http://i.imgur.com/h6OQHHN.png

ANH is definitely still the better movie. Better paced, inventing special effects as we know them today(to the point where special effects guys were asked for autographs at the time), two well executed character arcs as opposed to the questionable ones we see in TFA, a wonderfully colorful cast of characters that are all cultural icons, and creating the cultural juggernaut we know as Star Wars.

In my viewing of TFA, the audience only clapped a few times. Once at the Falcon, and once again at seeing Han(but not Leia, the bastards), both of which originated in this film. This is not even a contest in my mind.

But you guys don't wanna hear that so I'll just say TFA like a good little Stormtrooper.

Originally posted by Astner
http://i.imgur.com/h6OQHHN.png

I can read thanks. Just like I read you saying TFA is worse than TPM, AotC or the Clone Wars movie, in a non-joking way.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
But you guys don't wanna hear that so I'll just say TFA like a good little Stormtrooper.

You know it's funny how you keep saying this yet you seem to be the one the most annoyed by other peoples opinions and unwilling to listen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can read thanks. Just like I read you saying TFA is worse than TPM, AotC or the Clone Wars movie, in a non-joking way.
In context of the series it is. Because it's a retelling of A New Hope.

It's more of a homage. It's definitely not a retelling, there's enough different elements.

Also originality isn't a measurement of quality.

ANH for me. No question.

ANH, it started it all

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can read thanks. Just like I read you saying TFA is worse than TPM, AotC or the Clone Wars movie, in a non-joking way.



You know it's funny how you keep saying this yet you seem to be the one the most annoyed by other peoples opinions and unwilling to listen.

Neph you told me my opinion was flat out wrong and another jackass accused me of lowballing(as if this were a versus thread) the quality of the movie. Please tell me why I should feel like dissenting opinions are welcome?

Keep in mind I read your little think piece and while it wouldn't be very hard to pick it apart bit by bit, I opted not to because you enjoy a movie I didn't and that is fine. I've listened to ScreamPaste's arguments for this movie(mostly as it pertains to Ren because neither of us cared about Rey) and even appreciated Blax's comments on Ren's backstory(no one brings up Finn because he doesn't matter). I've told people to watch a movie I dislike(and my dislike grows with every passing day) because I keep thinking that maybe I'm missing something.

But yes, sure, I'm unwilling to listen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's more of a homage. It's definitely not a retelling,
http://i.imgur.com/zhTAUP3.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
there's enough different elements.
Sadly there aren't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also originality isn't a measurement of quality.
By itself? No.

But no critique would argue that innovation doesn't add to the quality of a work.

Why can't people like both? Both are great films....

Star Wars: A New Hope
IMDB - 8.7/10
Rotten Tomatoes - 94%
Metacritic - 92%

Star Wars: The Force Awakens
IMDB - 8.6/10
Rotten Tomatoes - 94%
Metacritic - 81%

As I said, I love both films. I just like ANH a little more because:
A) It started Star Wars
B) It didn't borrow from previous films

That being said, it hasn't aged particularly well, especially if you have to watch the "Enhanced" versions.

Well as far as pure fun action movies both work rather well.

But if I had to watch only one, I'd watch ANH and were I a betting man I'd say it will be the only Star Wars movie(along with ESB and RotJ) people will care all that much about.

TFA; hands down.

Originally posted by quanchi112
TFA; hands down.

I'm actually curious as to the specifics on your opinion Quan. mmm

No TFA does not compare to the greatest movie in motion picture history Lol

The only measurement to be made between these 2 is on how many ways TFA ripped ANH off.


Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb

Star Wars: A New Hope
IMDB - 8.7/10
Rotten Tomatoes - 94%
Metacritic - 92%

Star Wars: The Force Awakens
IMDB - 8.6/10
Rotten Tomatoes - 94%
Metacritic - 81%


Oohh Same Scores on RT and IMDB, meaning they MUST be comparable.

Lets just ignore that one of them has proven to be a timeless classic and the other is in theatres right now at the peak of its hype.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm actually curious as to the specifics on your opinion Quan. mmm ANH isn't very entertaining today and looks bad. The acting in it is hideous in various scenes. The acting in TFA is much better and Harrison ford definitely shows how much better of an actor he became comparing this to ANH.


ANH who Lucas himself was greatly disappointed with.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No TFA does not compare to the greatest movie in motion picture history Lol

The only measurement to be made between these 2 is on how many ways TFA ripped ANH off.




Oohh Same Scores on RT and IMDB, meaning they MUST be comparable.

Lets just ignore that one of them has proven to be a timeless classic and the other is in theatres right now at the peak of its hype. ANH is only the greatest in certain minds. This is a subjective topic, kid. TFA; hands down.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No TFA does not compare to the greatest movie in motion picture history Lol.

It's not entirely that good lol. Stuff like the Godfather, Citizen Kane, and Vertigo are still probably "better" movies.

But A New Hope did unquestionably shape Hollywood into what it is today, for better and for worse.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It's not entirely that good lol. Stuff like the Godfather, Citizen Kane, and Vertigo are still probably "better" movies.

But A New Hope did unquestionably shape Hollywood into what it is today, for better and for worse. I watched citizen Kane years ago and it was gutter trash. How anyone could enjoy that film boggles my mind.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It's not entirely that good lol. Stuff like the Godfather, Citizen Kane, and Vertigo are still probably "better" movies.

But A New Hope did unquestionably shape Hollywood into what it is today, for better and for worse.


I meant to me obviously.

But it's name certainly comes up in most of those "greatest movies ever made" lists and conversations. I doubt TFA will Lol

Originally posted by quanchi112
I watched citizen Kane years ago and it was gutter trash. How anyone could enjoy that film boggles my mind.

It's the camera work. It is hard for us to appreciate now but growing up in an era where movies were still the most technologically impressive machine, a film that experiments with that is groundbreaking. Some of the shots in the film are just utterly unforgettable. Keep in mind when critics pick the best picture of all time or something like that, they're usually talking about movies that push the boundaries of the industry and the art of film. You won't see TFA being praised like that. Not because it is a bad movie but because Abrams really wasn't trying to experiment with film so much as capture the spirit of the original trilogy. Even if you loved the movie, it's not really trying to be anything more than that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I meant to me obviously.

But it's name certainly comes up in most of those "greatest movies ever made" lists and conversations. I doubt TFA will Lol

To be fair to TFA, ANH came out to a much different societal landscape. The 70s were so jaded and bitter that a film with such heart gave people something they were lacking. ANH didn't just change movies but the hearts of people watching movies(at the time).

TFA on the other hand is living in a less bleak age. We're still plenty jaded but the Marvel Cinematic Universe doing as well as it does is a strong indication that the people love having heroes on the big screen. It is also doing more with the experimentation of film but that is another story.

I do not factor in originality at all when determining my overall enjoyment/satisfaction with a film. It either works or it doesn't. It doesn't have to be groundbreaking and even then I've seen awfully bad groundbreaking films Take for instance dragon age origins which was taken from various pieces of fiction but the story and the experience was amazing. AFA wasn't amazing but it was good and started off a new trilogy better than Phantom Menace or a New Hope did IMO.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Neph you told me my opinion was flat out wrong and another jackass accused me of lowballing(as if this were a versus thread) the quality of the movie. Please tell me why I should feel like dissenting opinions are welcome?

Keep in mind I read your little think piece and while it wouldn't be very hard to pick it apart bit by bit, I opted not to because you enjoy a movie I didn't and that is fine. I've listened to ScreamPaste's arguments for this movie(mostly as it pertains to Ren because neither of us cared about Rey) and even appreciated Blax's comments on Ren's backstory(no one brings up Finn because he doesn't matter). I've told people to watch a movie I dislike(and my dislike grows with every passing day) because I keep thinking that maybe I'm missing something.

But yes, sure, I'm unwilling to listen.

If you're talking about what I think you are, then I didn't say that your opinion was wrong I said that you were wrong about a specific thing in the movie. Which you were. You brought up your persecution complex so I corrected you about that.

The only one being a douche is CPT Space Bomb, because he's a dickhead, others are perfectly capable of debating the movie like always have done so. But from what I've seen you just moan about no one listening to you because its an echo chamber. Like you just did, despite no-one up till then saying TFA is better. You can say that you're open to differing opinions but your incredibly bitter comments suggest otherwise. I just think you should tone down on the complaining about bias when your own opinion is coloring your posts to heavily.

**** you for saying Finn doesn't matter though.

Originally posted by Nephthys

**** you for saying Finn doesn't matter though.
But does he matter?

Without Finn, Rey and BB-8 couldn't make it off Jakku, he can't give the resistance critical info on Starkiller Base or know how to disable the shields and without him rescuing Poe there isn't a good enough pilot to blow it up.

Also the movie would be worse because he's ****ing awesome.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But does he matter? Yes, he does. I personally think he's ass but most of the good guys usually are. Snoke is where it's at with an honorable mention going Kylo's way.

Originally posted by Astner
http://i.imgur.com/zhTAUP3.jpg

Right...... Except that Finn's plot through the movie has no equivalent in ANH. Nor does Rey's actually. Nor Poe's. Nor Kylo Ren's. Nor Han's. Maz has no equivalent in ANH either. So basically every major characters plotline differs significantly from ANH. Even BB-8's plot is pretty different. Theres no C3PO stand-in and instead of trying to get to Obi-Wan he's sticks with Rey mostly.

Superficial plot structure is superficial. We're not watching the movie to see that shit. Like Lucas says, SW is about the characters and the world foremost.

Originally posted by Astner
Sadly there aren't.

http://media2.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Astner
By itself? No.

But no critique would argue that innovation doesn't add to the quality of a work.

In a minor capacity, yes. It's nowhere near the be-all you make it out to be though. And unoriginality doesn't necessarily detract from a movie either.

Finn admits that he had no idea how to disable the shields though. Also its kind of Finn's fault that Rey & BB-8 were even in that jam.

You are right about him being awesome though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he does. I personally think he's ass but most of the good guys usually are. Snoke is where it's at with an honorable mention going Kylo's way.
How? There's next to no information as to what Snoke is.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Finn admits that he had no idea how to disable the shields though. Also its kind of Finn's fault that Rey & BB-8 were even in that jam.

You are right about him being awesome though.


How? There's next to no information as to what Snoke is. You have to piece together the clues but make no mistake he's the bees knees. I'm the only one who's excited about Snoke. I am a visionary and a true individual unlike the robots like Robbie.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You have to piece together the clues but make no mistake he's the bees knees. I'm the only one who's excited about Snoke. I am a visionary and a true individual unlike the robots like Robbie.
But there really aren't any clues either. Its just a scar, Andy Serkis, and he's the boss of Ren.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But there really aren't any clues either. Its just a scar, Andy Serkis, and he's the boss of Ren. We shall see. The scars come from something previous. He is wise. Remember that clue, kiddo.

Holy shit you're right! There was anther character said to be wise in the films. Clearly he is Yoda!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right...... Except that Finn's plot through the movie has no equivalent in ANH. Nor does Rey's actually. Nor Poe's. Nor Kylo Ren's. Nor Han's. Maz has no equivalent in ANH either. So basically every major characters plotline differs significantly from ANH. Even BB-8's plot is pretty different. Theres no C3PO stand-in and instead of trying to get to Obi-Wan he's sticks with Rey mostly.




You're pointing out differences which are quite normal to have in a rehash. Do you really expect a Copy to be an Exact Copy?

Anyway Poe is playing Leia's role. Being chased by the FO, hides the plans in his droid. Sends droid off on his own with a mission to get those plans to the Resistance. Total commitment to the "Resistance" Gets captured tortured. Gets rescued by an odd "stormtrooper." But yes, very different to Leia as well, but from the beginning he was taking her place in this ANH revamp.

Rey was clearly Luke. No explanation needed.

BB8 was R2. Again no explanation needed.

Han was Old Ben. Mentor to the new younger heroes. Previous Father/Mentor figure to the Villain. Confronts him and dies.

Kylo Ren- Clearly Darth Vader from the opening scene (in fact the whole Opening sequence was a mirage of the ANH opening sequence). Ex-Jedi, betrayed his Fellow Jedi and murdered them.

Finn - He's the one big difference between ANH and TFA. Which is probably why he was the most refreshing character in the film.

Other "Minor" similarities to ANH:

First Order - The Empire.
Resistance - Rebellion.
Starkiller Base - Death Star.

^ These three things together just made the entire setting too similar to ANH that just made it difficult for them to avoid copying pretty much the same plot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you're talking about what I think you are, then I didn't say that your opinion was wrong I said that you were wrong about a specific thing in the movie. Which you were. You brought up your persecution complex so I corrected you about that.

The only one being a douche is CPT Space Bomb, because he's a dickhead, others are perfectly capable of debating the movie like always have done so. But from what I've seen you just moan about no one listening to you because its an echo chamber. Like you just did, despite no-one up till then saying TFA is better. You can say that you're open to differing opinions but your incredibly bitter comments suggest otherwise. I just think you should tone down on the complaining about bias when your own opinion is coloring your posts to heavily.

**** you for saying Finn doesn't matter though.

This big speech about how I'm the one with biases and that other opinions are totally accepted by everyone(except CPT, you threw him under the bus fast)...and then you end it with a **** you, this character is great and you're wrong.

In my entire conversation with most others regarding the film, Finn comes up almost none of the time. The conversations are usually regarding Ben as a villain, Rey as a Mary Sue(or rather if she is one, which she isn't technically), and how BB-8 is the best character. Finn is utterly ignored, at least in the conversations I've had.

Not that any of this is to discredit the actor. He did a fine job. But no, I don't care about Finn. Not one little bit. Don't hate him though. He's just nothing to me. Sorta like Boba Fett.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're pointing out differences which are quite normal to have in a rehash. Do you really expect a Copy to be an Exact Copy?

Anyway Poe is playing Leia's role. Being chased by the FO, hides the plans in his droid. Sends droid off on his own with a mission to get those plans to the Resistance. Total commitment to the "Resistance" Gets captured tortured. Gets rescued by an odd "stormtrooper." But yes, very different to Leia as well, but from the beginning he was taking her place in this ANH revamp.

Rey was clearly Luke. No explanation needed.

BB8 was R2. Again no explanation needed.

Han was Old Ben. Mentor to the new younger heroes. Previous Father/Mentor figure to the Villain. Confronts him and dies.

Kylo Ren- Clearly Darth Vader from the opening scene (in fact the whole Opening sequence was a mirage of the ANH opening sequence). Ex-Jedi, betrayed his Fellow Jedi and murdered them.

Finn - He's the one big difference between ANH and TFA. Which is probably why he was the most refreshing character in the film.

Other "Minor" similarities to ANH:

First Order - The Empire.
Resistance - Rebellion.
Starkiller Base - Death Star.

^ These three things together just made the entire setting too similar to ANH that just made it difficult for them to avoid copying pretty much the same plot.

You're missing his point. Yes, the character share the same superficial roles. But the characters themselves are almost entirely different.

Edit: And the plot is different. People get way to caught up with the similarities between Starkiller Base and the Death Star. The primary plot is about the search for Luke; Starkiller Base was merely a subplot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only one being a douche is CPT Space Bomb, because he's a dickhead, others are perfectly capable of debating the movie like always have done so. Haha, Excuse me? Seems to me you're the one telling others to **** off and the like. I merely said anyone that tries to tell people if they feel "X" they are stupid; that that person is a sack of shit. If you find that offensive then maybe consider why that is. I haven't attacked anyone on this thread, whereas you are going to town.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
This big speech about how I'm the one with biases and that other opinions are totally accepted by everyone(except CPT, you threw him under the bus fast)...and then you end it with a **** you, this character is great and you're wrong.

In my entire conversation with most others regarding the film, Finn comes up almost none of the time. The conversations are usually regarding Ben as a villain, Rey as a Mary Sue(or rather if she is one, which she isn't technically), and how BB-8 is the best character. Finn is utterly ignored, at least in the conversations I've had.

Not that any of this is to discredit the actor. He did a fine job. But no, I don't care about Finn. Not one little bit. Don't hate him though. He's just nothing to me. Sorta like Boba Fett.

I wasn't seriously telling you to **** off. It was a joke.

I'm really surprised that you didn't care for Finn. He has a fantastic introduction setting him up sympathetically, he's funny and charming and in general he has a lot of earnestness and heart to him. People don't talk about him because theres not much else to say, imo. He's really cool and I've not seen much argument anywhere on that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't seriously telling you to **** off. It was a joke.
Oh, you get called out for being a "dickhead" so you try to throw others under the bus and then say you were joking. You should be a politician.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're pointing out differences which are quite normal to have in a rehash. Do you really expect a Copy to be an Exact Copy?

Anyway Poe is playing Leia's role. Being chased by the FO, hides the plans in his droid. Sends droid off on his own with a mission to get those plans to the Resistance. Total commitment to the "Resistance" Gets captured tortured. Gets rescued by an odd "stormtrooper." But yes, very different to Leia as well, but from the beginning he was taking her place in this ANH revamp.

I don't see it. His role in the movie is totally different from Leia's and follows different plot beats.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Rey was clearly Luke. No explanation needed.

Except her character arc is completely different from Luke's and theres not really much similar about them tbh. She has a totally different plot throughout the movie thats nothing like Lukes and she does completely different things from him the whole way through.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
BB8 was R2. Again no explanation needed.

Meh, superficially.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Han was Old Ben. Mentor to the new younger heroes. Previous Father/Mentor figure to the Villain. Confronts him and dies.

Completely different character arc. Completely different plot line. Does completely different things.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Kylo Ren- Clearly Darth Vader from the opening scene (in fact the whole Opening sequence was a mirage of the ANH opening sequence). Ex-Jedi, betrayed his Fellow Jedi and murdered them.

Completely different character arc. Completely different plot line. Does completely different things.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Finn - He's the one big difference between ANH and TFA. Which is probably why he was the most refreshing character in the film.

Cool.

Originally posted by ares834
You're missing his point. Yes, the character share the same superficial roles. But the characters themselves are almost entirely different.

Edit: And the plot is different. People get way to caught up with the similarities between Starkiller Base and the Death Star. The primary plot is about the search for Luke; Starkiller Base was merely a subplot. Darth Thor clearly didn't follow it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't seriously telling you to **** off. It was a joke.

I'm really surprised that you didn't care for Finn. He has a fantastic introduction setting him up sympathetically, he's funny and charming and in general he has a lot of earnestness and heart to him. People don't talk about him because theres not much else to say, imo. He's really cool and I've not seen much argument anywhere on that.

I know. I'm just self-conscious about my tiny package.

It's mostly cause of the bar scene. Mazz says something to the effect that he has the eyes of someone who wants to run and then he....proceeds to prove her correct lol. While it isn't one to one obviously, it does make me think of Han "leaving" at the end of a New Hope because he has zero reason to stay. Han comes back because he has grown fond of Luke(and Leia I suppose) while Finn sticks around to save Rey. It really comes down to their roles in the climax. Without Han, the Rebellion ends on Yavon. End of story. Finn on the other hand...well Rey was handling herself rather well. He really didn't know how to bring down the shields so the heroes needed to think of something else(can't recall if that was his plan or not). While he also gets to fight Ren, his biggest contribution there was ultimately getting the lightsabre in the right place for Rey to get it. He doesn't even get a proper ending, he's just out cold by the end. I wanted more was all.

Again I should stress that the cast of actors is fantastic. They're definitely doing their damndest and my only issues with the characters are in the writing.

This is a peculiar observation given that the emperor wasn't in ANH and Ren and his angsty teenage temper tantrums don't come close to Vader's intimidation.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see it. His role in the movie is totally different from Leia's and follows different plot beats.


He's got the swagger of a Han Solo, and he's obviously a pilot, not a Prince. But his role in the film closely resembles Leia's. He's the guy with the Resistance. He's the one who's on the mission to get these plans, and he's the one who hides them in his droid on a dessert planet, he's the one who gets captured and escapes with help.

Also like Leia, his character doesn't change during the film. He's the same person at the beginning that he is at the end, very unlike Han Solo, Luke Skywalker (ANH) and very unlike Finn and Poe in TFA.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Except her character arc is completely different from Luke's and theres not really much similar about them tbh. She has a totally different plot throughout the movie thats nothing like Lukes and she does completely different things from him the whole way through.

She (Rey) is without any parents on a dessert planet, but has a greater destiny with the Force which she's reluctant to accept when she first meets Han, until she's told her parents are not coming back. She loves ships and it a great pilot. The end of the movie comes down to her and Kylo on Starkillerbase, where she discovers the true power of the Force in herself.

He (Luke) was an Orphan on a dessert planet, but has a greater destiny with the Force which he's reluctant to accept when he first meets Old Ben, until he's seen his adopted parents are dead. He loves ships and is a great pilot. The end of the movie comes down to him and Vader where he discovers the true power of the Force in himself.

^ Pretty damn similar arc IMO.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, superficially.


But same plot of him carrying the hidden plans.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Completely different character arc. Completely different plot line. Does completely different things.



Completely different character arc. Completely different plot line. Does completely different things.





Old Ben comes across Luke who is in trouble. Tells Luke of how Vader was once his pupil who betrayed and murdered the Jedi. Old Ben asks Luke to come with him and to join him. Old Ben confronts his former Apprentice and dies at his hands, but not before making sure the Tractor beam was out of commission so the Rebellion could destroy the Death Star.

Old Han comes across Rey who is in trouble. Tells Rey how Kylo Ren (his son) betrayed and murdered the Jedi. Old Han asks Rey to come with him and to join his crew. Old Han confronts his Son and dies at his hands, but not before making sure he implanted the explosives so the Resistance could destroy the Stakiller Base.

^ Sounds like pretty similar Character Arcs and Roles to me despite the differences in personalities and job descriptions that you're pointing out.



On top of that:

Resistance = Rebellion

First Order = Empire

Starkillerbase = Death Star

Plot revolving around hidden plans in a droid = Plot revolving around hidden plans in a droid


This film was a blatant rehash of ANH, just in a sequel format, and with some changes (obviously) including new personalities. And even people praising this movie are not denying that, so not sure why you are. It's a very fair criticism of the film tbh. Whether it bothers you or not is a different thing.

TFA is one of the highest rated Star Wars movies ever. And again, it has the chance to be the highest grossing movie ever. There is a whole lot of butthurt over this movie; it's quite entertaining.

None of that excuses the film of its faults that people find with its writing or criticism of how much it borrows from ANH. Just because a movie is financial successful doesn't mean is should be excused from this that are actually wrong with.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
None of that excuses the film of its faults that people find with its writing or criticism of how much it borrows from ANH. Just because a movie is financial successful doesn't mean is should be excused from this that are actually wrong with. I have said many times that there are flaws/issues I have with TFA. But I still enjoyed the movie alot. No, it's not a perfect film. I even said I rank it 4th and like ANH more. That being said, there is a small contingent of people on these boards that feel the need to crucify the movie. Hey, that's fine if that's how they feel. My point is that the vast majority (I.E. reviewers and movie-goers) find the movie to be good.

TFA is an inferior remake of ANH.

Originally posted by jaden101
This is a peculiar observation given that the emperor wasn't in ANH and Ren and his angsty teenage temper tantrums don't come close to Vader's intimidation.
That is the point. The villains in TFA were introduce early, had more screen time and more details on their background were given.

As for Vader he did have an intimidating look but did not come off as very intimidating to me, until ESB. Ren started off more intimidating. I agree that faded as they made him emotionally unstable.

Originally posted by Mindset
TFA is an inferior remake of ANH. Nah, ANH is overrated. Even Lucas himself was greatly disappointed with it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah, ANH is overrated. Even Lucas himself was greatly disappointed with it. And yet TFA is still an inferior remake.

Originally posted by Mindset
And yet TFA is still an inferior remake. You are crazy. The acting in ANH is awful. TFA is better across the board. It isn't close. Maybe you like shitty acting.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are crazy. The acting in ANH is awful. TFA is better across the board. It isn't close. Maybe you like shitty acting. You are wrong and your opinions are inferior.

Originally posted by Mindset
You are wrong and your opinions are inferior. George Lucas also thinks the movie was a disappointment. High five, George.

Originally posted by quanchi112
George Lucas also thinks the movie was a disappointment. High five, George. George thinks it was better than TFA.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6wl0kHuTz1r7nc50.gif

Originally posted by Mindset
TFA is an inferior remake of ANH.

ANH overall.

ANH for being the og.

ANH... still the tighter and better crafted storyline.

Originally posted by Mindset
George thinks it was better than TFA. He never said that.

He did say he was disappointed with ANH. I agree with him.

Originally posted by queeq
ANH... still the tighter and better crafted storyline.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I know. I'm just self-conscious about my tiny package.

It's mostly cause of the bar scene. Mazz says something to the effect that he has the eyes of someone who wants to run and then he....proceeds to prove her correct lol. While it isn't one to one obviously, it does make me think of Han "leaving" at the end of a New Hope because he has zero reason to stay. Han comes back because he has grown fond of Luke(and Leia I suppose) while Finn sticks around to save Rey. It really comes down to their roles in the climax. Without Han, the Rebellion ends on Yavon. End of story. Finn on the other hand...well Rey was handling herself rather well. He really didn't know how to bring down the shields so the heroes needed to think of something else(can't recall if that was his plan or not). While he also gets to fight Ren, his biggest contribution there was ultimately getting the lightsabre in the right place for Rey to get it. He doesn't even get a proper ending, he's just out cold by the end. I wanted more was all.

Again I should stress that the cast of actors is fantastic. They're definitely doing their damndest and my only issues with the characters are in the writing.

Well, sorry if I upset you.

That's a really weird reaction ngl. Surely you're supposed to get invested in Finn at the start of the movie where you're introduced to him as very sympathetic and then watch him be cool, funny and adorable throughout the movie. About the bar scene, Maz is correct and that's the point. He does run but the important thing is that he comes back. The fact that he's so scared to the First Order makes it more powerful when he charges into the middle of their superweapon to rescue Rey without a plan and ends up challenging Kylo ****ing Ren to a swordfight. Finn's "arc" throughout the movie is his hero complex. He tries to play the hero by rescuing Poe, he rushes over to save Rey, he grabs her hand all the time and after they get blasted he asks her if she's alright despite him being the hurt one. But when Maz calls him out he admits that he just wants to run away. After Rey is captured though he actually does fully step up and by the end of the movie he establishes himself as a true hero. He doesn't "accomplish" much sure, by as a personal character arc I thought it was pretty great. And he has a lot of really endearing character traits and is one of the funniest characters.

I like him. Alot. He's neat.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He's got the swagger of a Han Solo, and he's obviously a pilot, not a Prince. But his role in the film closely resembles Leia's. He's the guy with the Resistance. He's the one who's on the mission to get these plans, and he's the one who hides them in his droid on a dessert planet, he's the one who gets captured and escapes with help.

Also like Leia, his character doesn't change during the film. He's the same person at the beginning that he is at the end, very unlike Han Solo, Luke Skywalker (ANH)

Except he gets rescued early on and has a different character dynamic with the rest of the cast (well, Finn and BB-8). And he's the one blowing up the death star at the end instead of Rey and doing other piloting.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
and very unlike Finn and Poe in TFA.

:I

Originally posted by Darth Thor
She (Rey) is without any parents on a dessert planet, but has a greater destiny with the Force which she's reluctant to accept when she first meets Han, until she's told her parents are not coming back. She loves ships and it a great pilot. The end of the movie comes down to her and Kylo on Starkillerbase, where she discovers the true power of the Force in herself.

He (Luke) was an Orphan on a dessert planet, but has a greater destiny with the Force which he's reluctant to accept when he first meets Old Ben, until he's seen his adopted parents are dead. He loves ships and is a great pilot. The end of the movie comes down to him and Vader where he discovers the true power of the Force in himself.

^ Pretty damn similar arc IMO.

No, not really! You're just twisting the facts around and phrasing them similarly. Which you continue to do. I can do it too: Joseph Joestar grew up without parents, but has a greater destiny with Hamon that he's reluctant to accept until he's told Speedwagon is dead. He likes planes and is a good pilot. At the end of the series it comes down to him and Kars where he discovers the true power of Hamon in himself.

http://www.disney.co.uk/sites/default/files/Star%20Wars/In%20page%20assets/sw_cutout_luke-skywalker.jpg vs http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/322b84ae8062c9aa189f9310729e56dd.jpg

Totes the same!

Luke grew up with friends and a family his whole life until they're murdered. Rey grew up completely alone and has a different backstory that she's hung up on. Rey isn't aware of her Force powers when she meets Han, so their dynamic is different and so is Rey's path through the movie. She's not reluctant about that until later. Also Rey runs away when she's told her parents (or whatever) aren't coming back. Luke instantly runs off with Ben. Also Luke doesn't really "love" ships, he's just a good pilot like all force users. Rey's into them because she's a scavenger and dreams of flying away. And Vader gets taken out by Han and Luke only uses the Force afterwards, whereas Rey duels Kylo Ren solo and spends half the movie using the Force.

Rey's arc through the movie all about her struggle with her past and of letting go and eventually accepting her Force powers and thus her destiny outside of Jakku. Luke.... doesn't really have an arc he's just getting a grasp of the Force. Rey and Luke also have very different character dynamics. Luke doesn't even meet Vader until the second movie. Whereas Rey gets captured halfway through. Kind of like Leia gets captured and interrogated except Rey gets her Force powers awakened by Ren and then busts herself out. She also does a bunch of different things than Luke like her scavenging on Jakku, her piloting in the escape, her visions etc etc.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Old Ben comes across Luke who is in trouble. Tells Luke of how Vader was once his pupil who betrayed and murdered the Jedi. Old Ben asks Luke to come with him and to join him. Old Ben confronts his former Apprentice and dies at his hands, but not before making sure the Tractor beam was out of commission so the Rebellion could destroy the Death Star.

Old Han comes across Rey who is in trouble. Tells Rey how Kylo Ren (his son) betrayed and murdered the Jedi. Old Han asks Rey to come with him and to join his crew. Old Han confronts his Son and dies at his hands, but not before making sure he implanted the explosives so the Resistance could destroy the Stakiller Base.

^ Sounds like pretty similar Character Arcs and Roles to me despite the differences in personalities and job descriptions that you're pointing out.

Lmao "Old Han". He's never called that, you're just making them seem more similar than they are. Han wants to get his son back whereas Obi-Wan fights Vader. Han also just offers Rey a job, which she refuses, unlike Obi-Wan who trains Luke. Rey doesn't really need a mentor, unlike Luke. Also Han has much more of a story about Ben compared to Obi-Wans brief touching on his history with Vader. Obi-Wans all about Luke while Han's all about his son. Han also does more and has his own subplot with those gangs that are after him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
On top of that:

Resistance = Rebellion

First Order = Empire

Starkillerbase = Death Star

Plot revolving around hidden plans in a droid = Plot revolving around hidden plans in a droid

You already said that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This film was a blatant rehash of ANH, just in a sequel format, and with some changes (obviously) including new personalities. And even people praising this movie are not denying that, so not sure why you are. It's a very fair criticism of the film tbh. Whether it bothers you or not is a different thing.

It's not that important and the similarities are overblown. What matters is that it's really good, which it is.

Originally posted by Nephthys




Except he gets rescued early on and has a different character dynamic with the rest of the cast (well, Finn and BB-8). And he's the one blowing up the death star at the end instead of Rey and doing other piloting.


The characters are different. But the plot is the same. We're just seeing new personalities going through the same plot.

And that's clear by the "differences" you're bringing up- in ANH it was Luke piloting to blow up the death star, but in TFA it's Poe who has Leia's role at the beginning






Originally posted by Nephthys
No, not really! You're just twisting the facts around and phrasing them similarly. Which you continue to do.


No I'm correctly pointing out this is a rehash of ANH. Having different personalities involved doesn't change that.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I can do it too: Joseph Joestar grew up without parents, but has a greater destiny with Hamon that he's reluctant to accept until he's told Speedwagon is dead. He likes planes and is a good pilot. At the end of the series it comes down to him and Kars where he discovers the true power of Hamon in himself.


Totes the same!



In his story is there also secret plans hidden in a droid sent to a dessert planet? And is there also a Planet Destroying Death Star to destroy at the end of the movie before it blows up the Rebellion/Resistance?

Don't think so.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke grew up with friends and a family his whole life until they're murdered. Rey grew up completely alone and has a different backstory that she's hung up on. Rey isn't aware of her Force powers when she meets Han, so their dynamic is different and so is Rey's path through the movie. She's not reluctant about that until later. Also Rey runs away when she's told her parents (or whatever) aren't coming back. Luke instantly runs off with Ben. Also Luke doesn't really "love" ships, he's just a good pilot like all force users. Rey's into them because she's a scavenger and dreams of flying away. And Vader gets taken out by Han and Luke only uses the Force afterwards, whereas Rey duels Kylo Ren solo and spends half the movie using the Force.





Rey's arc through the movie all about her struggle with her past and of letting go and eventually accepting her Force powers and thus her destiny outside of Jakku. Luke.... doesn't really have an arc he's just getting a grasp of the Force. Rey and Luke also have very different character dynamics. Luke doesn't even meet Vader until the second movie. Whereas Rey gets captured halfway through. Kind of like Leia gets captured and interrogated except Rey gets her Force powers awakened by Ren and then busts herself out. She also does a bunch of different things than Luke like her scavenging on Jakku, her piloting in the escape, her visions etc etc.


So TFA moving the characters around a bit, and make a few changes to characters backgrounds just negates copying ANH's plot?



Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao "Old Han". He's never called that, you're just making them seem more similar than they are. Han wants to get his son back whereas Obi-Wan fights Vader. Han also just offers Rey a job, which she refuses, unlike Obi-Wan who trains Luke. Rey doesn't really need a mentor, unlike Luke. Also Han has much more of a story about Ben compared to Obi-Wans brief touching on his history with Vader. Obi-Wans all about Luke while Han's all about his son. Han also does more and has his own subplot with those gangs that are after him.


You're pointing out really minor differences. Old Han is the Old Ben role in this.

Basically you're argument is "it's not exactly the same movie.. I can point out everything that's different."

I'm saying it's a clear rehash. Plot taken straight from ANH, but made into a sequel format, with different personalities fulfilling the same roles.



Originally posted by Nephthys
You already said that.


Because you seem to be ignoring how hard they've worked to rehash ANH.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not that important and the similarities are overblown. What matters is that it's really good, which it is.


It's very important. I didn't pay to go see a rehash of ANH. I paid to watch a NEW Star Wars movie.

This movie has it's moments, but for the first time a Star Wars movie is lacking imagination.

Darth Thor's rage against the new Star Wars continues. I am loving that this movie has turned him into a blatant Star Wars hater.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj00rk1jLt1qcabl0o1_400.gif

First, let me say I've thoroughly enjoyed the mental gymnastics some of you have employed in vain attempts to justify this movie's unoriginality.

That said, my girlfriend had never watched a Star Wars movie before and we spent two days watching the OT.

All three lack the polish of contemporary films, but ANH is a stronger effort than TFA.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj00rk1jLt1qcabl0o1_400.gif

First, let me say I've thoroughly enjoyed the mental gymnastics some of you have employed in vain attempts to justify this movie's unoriginality.

That said, my girlfriend had never watched a Star Wars movie before and we spent two days watching the OT.

All three lack the polish of contemporary films, but ANH is a stronger effort than TFA. Surprisingly well said.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj00rk1jLt1qcabl0o1_400.gif

First, let me say I've thoroughly enjoyed the mental gymnastics some of you have employed in vain attempts to justify this movie's unoriginality.

That said, my girlfriend had never watched a Star Wars movie before and we spent two days watching the OT.

All three lack the polish of contemporary films, but ANH is a stronger effort than TFA. David Boreanaz is such a ****ing neanderthal, ffs.

Nah. He is more of an astronaut.

Angel is Whedon's best work still, fyi.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. He is more of an astronaut.


Ha! I got that.

this is a silly thread. There is no comparing TFA with ANH. You can't compare remakes with their original counterpart because even if they're better, the original was just that...,original. If TFA did something new, perhaps we could compare the two.

TFA isn't a remake and it was far more enjoyable than ANH.

Originally posted by quanchi112
TFA isn't a remake and it was far more enjoyable than ANH.


Yes, for all intents and purposes it was a remake. If you take out all of the story telling beats that the original had, this movie could NOT have existed on it's own. Saying that it's more enjoyable is purely objective and considering how lazily written it was. I don't mind the fact that anyone would find this movie enjoyable but to say that it's a better movie than ANH is just ridiculous and absurd. The entire story relied on retelling the original but did it more lazily.

I prefer the word 'Inspired' then remake in this case.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Yes, for all intents and purposes it was a remake. If you take out all of the story telling beats that the original had, this movie could NOT have existed on it's own. Saying that it's more enjoyable is purely objective and considering how lazily written it was. I don't mind the fact that anyone would find this movie enjoyable but to say that it's a better movie than ANH is just ridiculous and absurd. The entire story relied on retelling the original but did it more lazily. This is subjective and I always thought ANH stunk. The acting was hideous and even Lucas the came who came up with it said he was disappointed.

Opinions vary.

ANH no questions asked

Originally posted by Agusto Pinochet
ANH no questions asked Nah.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I don't mind the fact that anyone would find this movie enjoyable but to say that it's a better movie than ANH is just ridiculous and absurd. The entire story relied on retelling the original but did it more lazily.

Originally posted by Kazenji
I prefer the word 'Inspired' then remake in this case. Yah. I agree, I don't think it was lazily done, I think it was a movie that provided fan service to the OT fans, while grounding us back in That more believable universe.

They played it safe, but I don't blame them. They wanted to distance themselves from the PT, and they did it mostly well. Hell, the first words spoken are "This will begin to MAKE THINGS RIGHT" It was like a literal jab a the PT.


That being said, I still thing comparing the two in context to what movie was more important/impactful for it's time? It's no question ANH is the winner.

Originally posted by Kazenji
I prefer the word 'Inspired' then remake in this case.
It's not a remake, it's a rip-off. Just like Tanya Grotter was a rip-off of Harry Potter.

I guess "Inspired" is a better word than "rip off" considering it's the same franchise.

But whatever the word used doesn't put it above being criticised for its lack of originality.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I guess "Inspired" is a better word than "rip off" considering it's the same franchise.
No, it's still a rip-off.

When it's different franchises then it's called a copyright infringement, but ignoring the legal mumbo jumbo and looking at it from solely a creative perspective it's the same thing.

I don't know that i'd call it a "rip off" it was just a poorly written story. "Rip off" implies that the story was used to get something that the audiences didn't expect. Un fortunately i think all of the fans got what they were expecting but it may have taken a few groggy eyed viewings To let the people know what they, wanted.Either way we were ultimately reminded of what it means to be a, Star Wars Fan. So, in that that regard, the movie succeeded.

I was speaking solely, in the instance of this movie. Anyone could, for all intents and purposes, call this movie a rip-off. but, i truly believe this movie was meant to be something more than what it was received.

Originally posted by Astner
It's not a remake, it's a rip-off. Just like Tanya Grotter was a rip-off of Harry Potter.

In that case

'Zelda: A link to the Past' is a rip off of the previous ones before it.

ALttP had vastly different gameplay from the second Zelda and an actual plot players could actively be engaged in to differentiate it from the first(while borrowing some gameplay elements like the perspective). There be better video game examples. Especially since one of the biggest criticisms lobbied at Nintendo is that they often rely too much on repeating the same formula over and over again(to varying degrees).

A better example would have been using film series that are similar from film to film. Like Bond, Die Hard, etc. Problem there is that unlike those films, Star Wars has never really been all that similar between films. TPM was a story focused on a significant dispute that planted the seeds for the Empire and the discovery of the Chosen One. AotC was a flick about a romance between the Chosen One and a forbidden love, showing signs of his eventual fall, and the machinations of Palpatine to create a war from whole cloth. RotS was a film about the fall of the Chosen One, the Jedi, and the rise of the Empire. A New Hope was a story about a young plucky desert kid discovering his potential with a magical power and, with the help of some unconventional friends, dealing a powerful blow to the Empire. ESB is of course about our hero grappling with the complexities of his powers, a romance, and the Empire doing what it does in the title. RotJ is about our heroes finally proving themselves capable of the impossible and destroying the Empire for good while Luke wins a personal battle that proved he was right.

Which is not to say that the PT never bothered a lot from the OT, of course they did. It's not even heresy for a film like TFA to be similar in a lot of ways to the OT. But it is certainly something new for the series that a film so blatantly taking a lot of the structure and plot elements from a former flick in the franchise.

For my part, TFA reminds me a lot more of Eragon that ANH. Which is....not what many would want to hear.

The actors in EP7 sucked besides Harrison Ford tho EP1s actors were far better. EP7 actors had no charisma/skill total lightweights. I liked the movie but just stating facts.

The acting sucked? The one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the acting was the best it's ever been in a SW flick.

Originally posted by ares834
The acting sucked? The one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the acting was the best it's ever been in a SW flick. '

Well I wouldn't say best out of all Star Wars but yeah I liked the acting.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
ALttP had vastly different gameplay from the second Zelda and an actual plot players could actively be engaged in to differentiate it from the first(while borrowing some gameplay elements like the perspective). There be better video game examples. Especially since one of the biggest criticisms lobbied at Nintendo is that they often rely too much on repeating the same formula over and over again(to varying degrees).


But i'm not talking about the gameplay specifically more to do with some of the things you see in it, So really its not much different to what they did with TFA.

Originally posted by AuraAngel

A better example would have been using film series that are similar from film to film. Like Bond, Die Hard, etc. Problem there is that unlike those films, Star Wars has never really been all that similar between films.


I agree. Kristian Harloff from Collider Jedi Council was justifying this rehash comparing it to Creed. But Rocky films do have a pretty similar story in all of them. Star Wars has always been about Originality IMO.




Originally posted by ares834
The acting sucked? The one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the acting was the best it's ever been in a SW flick.


Better than the Prequels for sure. Not too sure about being better than the OT acting at it's best.

Yes....because George Lucas would never copy his movies like Abrams did..

and i'm not talking about some of the dialogue that gets repeated/reused.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Yes....because George Lucas would never copy his movies like Abrams did..

and i'm not talking about some of the dialogue that gets repeated/reused.


Not to the extent Abrams did. No.


He might repeat "themes" but not whole plot points. He was Very Original with every SW film he made, whether people like them or not, that's pretty undeniable tbh.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not to the extent Abrams did. No.


He might repeat "themes" but not whole plot points.

And also Scenes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Star Wars has always been about Originality IMO.

No it hasn't. Its always been a homage to the adventure serials Lucas watched as a kid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it hasn't. Its always been a homage to the adventure serials Lucas watched as a kid.


facepalm

Originally posted by Kazenji
Yes....because George Lucas would never copy his movies like Abrams did..

No, not exactly like. But he did copy an awful lot. You want the list?

Originally posted by queeq
No, not exactly like. But he did copy an awful lot. You want the list? There was a lot he didn't copy and the movie is a huge success so we can argue subjectively but objectively he(JJ) completed his mission.

He did. And I enjoyed it. Much more than the PT.

Originally posted by queeq
He did. And I enjoyed it. Much more than the PT. Well the first two prequel films were really boring so Lucas really dropped the ball there.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not to the extent Abrams did. No.


He might repeat "themes" but not whole plot points. He was Very Original with every SW film he made, whether people like them or not, that's pretty undeniable tbh. In the video I linked, Lucas made DIRECT comparisons (read, "rip-offs" to how in Phantom Menace, Anakin was basically Luke. He was a boy on a desert planet that had a great destiny. He gets pushed along by an Older Jedi to go on a quest to become a Jedi. He then displays that he's "Not such bad pilot himself" and wins a pod race. Teams up with a "comic relief" character (Jar Jar) and a brash young man (Obi-Wan) and a beautiful Princess (Amidala) Then he ultimately saves the day by destroying the droid control ship (Death Star). Yah, there are more similarities ("rip-offs" in The Phantom Menace...but those are some main ones. Episode 1 was SOOO original.

ROTS has a lot, a LOT of boring stuff too... All three films suffer from the same dull approach. Ya know: talking and walking, talking and sitting...

Originally posted by queeq
ROTS has a lot, a LOT of boring stuff too... All three films suffer from the same dull approach. Ya know: talking and walking, talking and sitting... Rots is a great film. It isn't perfect but the ot's acting across the board in various parts is cringe worthy. The dialogue with Palpatine and Anakin is also golden.

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
In the video I linked, Lucas made DIRECT comparisons (read, "rip-offs" to how in Phantom Menace, Anakin was basically Luke. He was a boy on a desert planet that had a great destiny. He gets pushed along by an Older Jedi to go on a quest to become a Jedi. He then displays that he's "Not such bad pilot himself" and wins a pod race. Teams up with a "comic relief" character (Jar Jar) and a brash young man (Obi-Wan) and a beautiful Princess (Amidala) Then he ultimately saves the day by destroying the droid control ship (Death Star). Yah, there are more similarities ("rip-offs" in The Phantom Menace...but those are some main ones. Episode 1 was SOOO original.



TPM was about the occupation of a planet, the "Resurgence" of a thousand year old enemy, the "Discovery" of a boy with Massive potential, a corrupt political system, and turning to the comic relief character to form an alliance with his people to save the original planet under threat.


It was Very Very different to film to ANH and Very Original.

Having "Parallels" and Repeating certain "Themes" is not the same thing as copying the basic Plot and Setting from another film.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj00rk1jLt1qcabl0o1_400.gif

First, let me say I've thoroughly enjoyed the mental gymnastics some of you have employed in vain attempts to justify this movie's unoriginality.

Lmao. Never change, guys. Never change.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
TPM was about the occupation of a planet, the "Resurgence" of a thousand year old enemy, the "Discovery" of a boy with Massive potential, a corrupt political system, and turning to the comic relief character to form an alliance with his people to save the original planet under threat.New coats of paint don't disguise what I already outlined...the vast similarities between ANH and TPM.No it wasn't. It wasn't VERY original. Again, George Lucas even talks about the similarities between the films in that video I linked. So, it's parallels when you want it to be and rip-offs when referring to TFA? Interesting.

The Phantom Menace: AKA A New Hope
http://www.wired.com/2015/10/my-first-viewing-of-star-wars-i/

Originally posted by quanchi112
Rots is a great film. It isn't perfect but the ot's acting across the board in various parts is cringe worthy. The dialogue with Palpatine and Anakin is also golden.

ROTS is a deeply flawed movie. On many levels, not just acting and dialogue. It fails on structure, motivation, reasons why things happen, reaction to dramatic moments (or better yet: the lack of reaction)... the list goes on. A lot here is obsolete and just like AOCT it fails horribly on the crucial story element of the film. In this case: the fall of Anakin to the Dark Side.

This whole movie makes Anakin look like a dumb idiot that has only one emotion: anger. And is far from 'a good friend."

Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
New coats of paint don't disguise what I already outlined...the vast similarities between ANH and TPM.No it wasn't. It wasn't VERY original. Again, George Lucas even talks about the similarities between the films in that video I linked. So, it's parallels when you want it to be and rip-offs when referring to TFA? Interesting.



Seems you're just covering your eyes and ears, so really don't know what else to say to you at this point, except not only does TPM have a completely different plot to ANH, but introduces us to completely different new worlds, aliens and ships. It's a very Imaginative and Original film. Unlike TFA.

TFA has an entirely different plot as well. SKB is merely a subplot of the film.

It is true that the Anakin bits do resemble Luke's story but it is downplayed because Anakin is not the main character of TPM, Qui-Gon and Padme are.

If the nods to the original in TFA actively took people out of the movie(it did for me at least) then it is a valid complaint against the story. It means your attention is divided between a movie you're watching and thoughts about a movie you used to watch.

Originally posted by ares834
TFA has an entirely different plot as well. SKB is merely a subplot of the film.



SKB, Hidden plans in the droid, Chosen One finds droid and embraces a greater destiny, Main Villain is a former Jedi who betrayed and destroyed the Order. Resistance/FO set up in the Galaxy imitating the Rebellion/Empire set up of ANH.


I really don't see why you guys are either:

A) Trying to deny TFA has heavily "borrowed" it's plot from ANH or

B) Trying to make out TPM did the same thing.

Most of the plot elements are almost entirely superficial. Now yes, the setting is very similar but the plot itself is as different from ANH as TPM was.

Care to fill us in on what this totally original plot exactly is?

Well, if you've seen the film you no doubt know, but its the search for Luke.

Originally posted by queeq
ROTS is a deeply flawed movie. On many levels, not just acting and dialogue. It fails on structure, motivation, reasons why things happen, reaction to dramatic moments (or better yet: the lack of reaction)... the list goes on. A lot here is obsolete and just like AOCT it fails horribly on the crucial story element of the film. In this case: the fall of Anakin to the Dark Side.

This whole movie makes Anakin look like a dumb idiot that has only one emotion: anger. And is far from 'a good friend." I don't agree it fails on that many levels and to me a very important factor is the rewatch ability factor.

Anakin was a dumb idiot. This is how bad he was when someone close to him was in danger. He became a total nutcase. Palpatine seducing the fool was executed perfectly to me. Granted it's Ian's acting along with Ewan which was exceptional the ot's acting was even worse than the bad moments in rots imo.

Originally posted by ares834
Well, if you've seen the film you no doubt know, but its the search for Luke. Right, which results in a droid entrusted with special information getting stranded on a desert planet, before with the help of a soon-to-be Chosen One and guy-who-isn't-really-part-of-this-fight reach the Rebel HQ and help them blow up the Death Star Starkiller Base before it can destroy them on Yavin 4 a random forest planet.

Totally haven't heard that story before.

This supposed totally original plot amounts to a few name drops and a wordless panning shot before the credits lol.

Not to mention while the film is "about" finding Luke, neither Rey nor Finn actually seem to care about finding him. Ren is the only new blood who seems to care about finding him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't agree it fails on that many levels and to me a very important factor is the rewatch ability factor.

Anakin was a dumb idiot. This is how bad he was when someone close to him was in danger. He became a total nutcase. Palpatine seducing the fool was executed perfectly to me. Granted it's Ian's acting along with Ewan which was exceptional the ot's acting was even worse than the bad moments in rots imo.

Yup, I agree that McDiarmid and McGregor saved this movie. They did an excellent job with lousy material. In fact, McDiarmid got the only role in the PT that had a character: someone who revels in being evil and wants tot make over the universe. There's not a character in the PT that comes close to anything as close to character as Palpy.

And Palpy's seducing was fine. Anakin was just completely dumb: he doesn't get a hint, he can't see through a guy, he has to be literally TOLD that Palpy is a Sith.

But the whole build up and seduction is ridiculous in every way. Anakin decides to do nothing when Palpy tells him he's the Sith Lord 'they were looking for", for years. He walks away, then he warns Mace that Palpy is the Sith, upon which they sound the alarm, muster a police force and Jedi...oh... no.... they don't. No, they calmly and slowly stroll to the spaceship (like neither of them seem to care) and Anakin says they can NOT defeat Palpy without him (he should have killed him then on the spot!).
So Anni stays behind, but he decides to ignore Mace's commands an go after them, he then strikes down Mace instead of the growling guy with the monster mask on the floor. His response is: "What have I done?". Then he suddenly submits himself to Palpy's teachings who then informs him he doesn't know how to save people from death. And next Ani goes off to kill kids... From someone that wants to save a possibly dying woman (someone he realises he is conned into) he instantly transforms into a mass murderer.... This-does-not-make-any-sense!!!

Now, honestly... what movie that treats THE crucial moment of a trilogy like that goes into history as a 'great film'?

@Ares, two plot points from TPM hardly make it the same as ANH brah.

On the other hand your attempts to highlight original plot points in TFA continue to be unsuccessful. The "core" part of the third act is the same as the core part of ANH second act e.g. the heroes come to rescue Leia and confront Darth Vader, resulting in the sacrifice of the mentor figure.

Except in TFA the damsel in distress rescues herself cause we're all progressive and feminist now.

Originally posted by queeq
Yup, I agree that McDiarmid and McGregor saved this movie. They did an excellent job with lousy material. In fact, McDiarmid got the only role in the PT that had a character: someone who revels in being evil and wants tot make over the universe. There's not a character in the PT that comes close to anything as close to character as Palpy.

And Palpy's seducing was fine. Anakin was just completely dumb: he doesn't get a hint, he can't see through a guy, he has to be literally TOLD that Palpy is a Sith.

But the whole build up and seduction is ridiculous in every way. Anakin decides to do nothing when Palpy tells him he's the Sith Lord 'they were looking for", for years. He walks away, then he warns Mace that Palpy is the Sith, upon which they sound the alarm, muster a police force and Jedi...oh... no.... they don't. No, they calmly and slowly stroll to the spaceship (like neither of them seem to care) and Anakin says they can NOT defeat Palpy without him (he should have killed him then on the spot!).
So Anni stays behind, but he decides to ignore Mace's commands an go after them, he then strikes down Mace instead of the growling guy with the monster mask on the floor. His response is: "What have I done?". Then he suddenly submits himself to Palpy's teachings who then informs him he doesn't know how to save people from death. And next Ani goes off to kill kids... From someone that wants to save a possibly dying woman (someone he realises he is conned into) he instantly transforms into a mass murderer.... This-does-not-make-any-sense!!!

Now, honestly... what movie that treats THE crucial moment of a trilogy like that goes into history as a 'great film'?

To be fair, the darkside seems to radically change a person. Sidious fully expected Luke to just up and become his apprentice after killing his daddeh. Once ya fall you fall hard.

Which is not to say RotS couldn't have handled it better. Killing some Jedi? Sure. Just chopping kids to bits? A bit of a comical extreme yes lol.

The major difference is relatable characters, characters we can like and events where it's clear what's going on. The OT and TFA have both of those. To get any grasp of what's going on in the PT you need to read a ton of books, comics and animation series. And even then there are no relatable characters on screen.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
To be fair, the darkside seems to radically change a person. Sidious fully expected Luke to just up and become his apprentice after killing his daddeh. Once ya fall you fall hard.

Which is not to say RotS couldn't have handled it better. Killing some Jedi? Sure. Just chopping kids to bits? A bit of a comical extreme yes lol.

Well, the dark side changed a silly kid into a psychopath murderer. Because that's what we see Anakin do a lot. Why did we have to cheer for this guy in the same way we cheered for Luke again?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Not to mention while the film is "about" finding Luke, neither Rey nor Finn actually seem to care about finding him. Ren is the only new blood who seems to care about finding him.

Rey and Finn continually risk their lives to protect the map to Luke. They clearly care about getting that shit to the Resistance.

Originally posted by queeq
The major difference is relatable characters, characters we can like and events where it's clear what's going on. The OT and TFA have both of those. To get any grasp of what's going on in the PT you need to read a ton of books, comics and animation series. And even then there are no relatable characters on screen.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yes in the end every Star Wars film is a rehash of the Hero's Journey, and when considering it's lack of originality I definitely take that into account.

Problem with TFA though is 1. its a little too on the nose - like the Call to Adventure didn't have to be another droid carrying vital information/ galactic war between Rebels and an Empire, and the Belly of the Whale didn't have to be the Death Star 3.0 - and 2. just wasn't executed as well, the Death Star for example was integral to the ANH, Starkiller Base was shoe-horned in to TFA and it's destruction was anti-climatic for something we have next to zero emotional investment in.

That's my real issue with the film.

Once you consider it a soft reboot, I think you can live with it.

As long as they push through this time. Unlike Abrams did with the second ST film. Which was storywise quite horrible, but I gotta say it's entertaining to watch. The ONLY redeeming factor for that movie,. But I am not a Trekkie. I sure hope they don't pull this on SW VIII.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yes in the end every Star Wars film is a rehash of the Hero's Journey, and when considering it's lack of originality I definitely take that into account.

Problem with TFA though is 1. its a little too on the nose - like the Call to Adventure didn't have to be another droid carrying vital information/ galactic war between Rebels and an Empire, and the Belly of the Whale didn't have to be the Death Star 3.0 - and 2. just wasn't executed as well, the Death Star for example was integral to the ANH, Starkiller Base was shoe-horned in to TFA and it's destruction was anti-climatic for something we have next to zero emotional investment in.

That's my real issue with the film.

👍

Many of these similarities that some TFA apologists are dismissing as "superficial" are critical to the story. When did "the plot" become a superficial element?

It's ok to acknowledge and discuss flaws in something you like. Why people have to convince themselves that what they like is perfect is beyond me.

Indeed. TFA is not flawless, I'd rank it no3 or no4 in my list of SW movies. But it's entertaining, has some great, fresh new characters that can go a long way and I had fun. That's quite a good score for a movie that basically all fantasy and funny nonsense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rey and Finn continually risk their lives to protect the map to Luke. They clearly care about getting that shit to the Resistance.

And do they do anything more than that to find Luke? Try and get the rest of the map? Nah. Finn just wants to keep his promise to Poe and Rey only seems to protect BB-8/Finn cause she is nice. Finding Luke himself is unimportant to them because Finn wants to run and Rey didn't think he was real.

And don't forget they got off Jakku to save their very lives...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well yes in the end every Star Wars film is a rehash of the Hero's Journey, and when considering it's lack of originality I definitely take that into account.

Problem with TFA though is 1. its a little too on the nose - like the Call to Adventure didn't have to be another droid carrying vital information/ galactic war between Rebels and an Empire, and the Belly of the Whale didn't have to be the Death Star 3.0 - and 2. just wasn't executed as well, the Death Star for example was integral to the ANH, Starkiller Base was shoe-horned in to TFA and it's destruction was anti-climatic for something we have next to zero emotional investment in.

That's my real issue with the film.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
And do they do anything more than that to find Luke? Try and get the rest of the map? Nah. Finn just wants to keep his promise to Poe and Rey only seems to protect BB-8/Finn cause she is nice. Finding Luke himself is unimportant to them because Finn wants to run and Rey didn't think he was real.

Well, I think Rey does actually.....

They had more important things to do after they get to the cantina. They don't try to get the rest of the map because Rey's captured, Finn's trying to rescue her, oh, and Starkiller Base just wiped out a solar system. Also Rey knows Lukes real by then.

Hero's Journey is a repetitive "theme" in th Star Wars movies, which is fine IMO as long as every time it's used differently. Because the variety of ways to use the Hero's Journey are almost endless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, I think Rey does actually.....

They had more important things to do after they get to the cantina. They don't try to get the rest of the map because Rey's captured, Finn's trying to rescue her, oh, and Starkiller Base just wiped out a solar system. Also Rey knows Lukes real by then.

Not up until that point, what with him being a legend and all.

Exactly. Once they got BB-8 out of the way, the plot of finding Luke is promptly dropped so that a climax can occur. The heroes don't really care about finding Luke(except Poe and Han obviously) but helping BB-8, a character not really involved in the ending.

Compare it to ANH, where the information in R2 is crucial to the climax of the film and the destruction of this big looming threat that has been present basically the whole movie.

This film could have been truly Epic if it just stuck to its own Original plot which was the "Search for Luke" IMO. Instead of cramming as much of ANH in there as possible.

Originally posted by queeq
Yup, I agree that McDiarmid and McGregor saved this movie. They did an excellent job with lousy material. In fact, McDiarmid got the only role in the PT that had a character: someone who revels in being evil and wants tot make over the universe. There's not a character in the PT that comes close to anything as close to character as Palpy.

And Palpy's seducing was fine. Anakin was just completely dumb: he doesn't get a hint, he can't see through a guy, he has to be literally TOLD that Palpy is a Sith.

But the whole build up and seduction is ridiculous in every way. Anakin decides to do nothing when Palpy tells him he's the Sith Lord 'they were looking for", for years. He walks away, then he warns Mace that Palpy is the Sith, upon which they sound the alarm, muster a police force and Jedi...oh... no.... they don't. No, they calmly and slowly stroll to the spaceship (like neither of them seem to care) and Anakin says they can NOT defeat Palpy without him (he should have killed him then on the spot!).
So Anni stays behind, but he decides to ignore Mace's commands an go after them, he then strikes down Mace instead of the growling guy with the monster mask on the floor. His response is: "What have I done?". Then he suddenly submits himself to Palpy's teachings who then informs him he doesn't know how to save people from death. And next Ani goes off to kill kids... From someone that wants to save a possibly dying woman (someone he realises he is conned into) he instantly transforms into a mass murderer.... This-does-not-make-any-sense!!!

Now, honestly... what movie that treats THE crucial moment of a trilogy like that goes into history as a 'great film'? Anakin was seduced and his mind was warped based off his visions of losing his wife. The guy totally lost it because he never could get over losing his mother and Sheev knew that and how to press his buttons.

Anakin did the right thing as he altered Windu but his fear brought him back to the conflict. He made a knee jerk reaction when Mace was going to kill a beaten opponent which violated the spirit of the Jedi. We could see why he did so but you know damn well anyone can see the error of his ways because our emotions aren't linked into his decisions.

He then realized what he did was catastrophic and agreed with Palpatine's next course of action as he believed the Jedi in his clouded thoughts were the enemies. He was a broken man. Stupid and played by Palpatine based off his emotions. To me it's a great film.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I really don't see why you guys are either:

A) Trying to deny TFA has heavily "borrowed" it's plot from ANH or There are tons of borrowed themes, yes. But in all honesty, the only one that really bugs me is Star Killer Base. And that wouldn't have bugged me much if it had lived through the movie. TPM did the same thing. http://www.wired.com/2015/10/my-first-viewing-of-star-wars-i/

I dig both movies. My two favorites of the franchise

Originally posted by Quincy
I dig both movies. My two favorites of the franchise

Even above Empire? Jedi I can see cause that is a flawed movie but most still put both below Empire.

Originally posted by Quincy
I dig both movies. My two favorites of the franchise Originally posted by CPT Space Bomb
They're both good. As long as you don't have to watch the Lucas "Enhanced" editions, A New Hope is better. That was my first post in this thread.