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Suppose I'm mostly fishing for accolades on Ren's part so that his powerscaling is more explicit as opposed to implicit :hmm

How's he do against...

1. 5th Brother
2. 7th Sister
3. Grand Inquisitor

This is purely Force powers based, don't particularly care about dueling.

Individually he beats all

All together he may lose

He's hands down more powerful than any of the Inquisitors seen.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
He's hands down more powerful than any of the Inquisitors seen.

We have a quote on that?

Because I'm more impressed with halting a ship intent on getting the hell out of dodge from the 5th Brother and 7th Sister frankly :hmm

Grand Inquisitor was more powerful than them too IIRC

Or is this being argued from more implicit things like blocking saber strikes with the Force?

Because TKing that bolt didn't really strike me as quantifiable

Well, the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister were both using the Force simultaneously to hold back the Phantom, and even then it wasn't going at full thrust. The Seventh Sister doesn't hold the power even close to the point where she'd be able to hold it by herself, which was made clear, and we don't know exactly how much the Fifth Brother was contributing to holding back the shuttle.

I'm not entirely sure about how the Grand Inquisitor stacks up against the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister power-wise. If there was a quote confirming his superiority I'd be interested to see it.

I find him stopping the bolt very impressive, as well as him blocking the saber strikes in the novel. Those feats demonstrate a greater mastery of the Force than the Inquisitors have, I think.

Kylo is hyped as the greatest student Snoke has ever had. In contrast, the Gran Inquisitor has the very basics of Dark Side knowledge, if you take Everything You Need to Know's word for it. Even if his training is "incomplete," so was Maul's and Vader's iirc, it obviously outclasses the Inquisitors.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Well, the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister were both using the Force simultaneously to hold back the Phantom, and even then it wasn't going at full thrust.

So pick your poison

50/50

majority brother, unquantifiable sister

majority sister, unquantifiable brother.

Even a small fraction of the energy for either is pretty large given orders of magnitude are pretty damn ridiculous for joules.

Wouldn't figure the Phantom was moving particularly slowly either given its laser cannon shots looked little faster, and those need to tag ships that fly at top atmospheric speed/the hilariously high speeds they can reach in a vacuum (episode 2, season 1 of the clone wars illustrates my point best. Around 19 minutes in IIRC)



Looked more like a stamina issue given she did keep it there briefly



No it isn't given my above and barring you having some quote that suggests 2 Force Users together = exponential power, we don't need to know who did most of the work for sure or at all. Someone did the feat. Someone in this thread gets credit. Doesn't matter who.



Hearsay, but I heard something about being a notch below Ventress from Filoni? Not that I was given a link though

Might as well mention it though to see if it pops up here I guess though.



Reflexes?

Sure

Raw power?

Ask yourself, does a blaster bolt destroy shit via Kinetic Energy? Yes or no, the feat remains underwhelming, just for different reasons I can try explaining when not stuck on a phone.



Saber blocking I give you given that means matching the energy of the blade

Which is the implicit thing I mention in the OP

Just was looking to see if more direct existed (quotes comparing him to someone).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kylo is hyped as the greatest student Snoke has ever had. In contrast, the Gran Inquisitor has the very basics of Dark Side knowledge, if you take Everything You Need to Know's word for it. Even if his training is "incomplete," so was Maul's and Vader's iirc, it obviously outclasses the Inquisitors.

When were these people Snoke's students?

We have a source on that?

Or, summary... why is being Snoke's greatest student impressive when we know nothing about any students but Ren

Some lessons in common sense:

1. Being a student of Snoke's makes you a student of Snoke's.
2. An apprentice won't be held back, as Inquisitors are.
3. Kylo is the most powerful student Snoke has ever had and is master of the Knights of Ren.

Not to mention the general feel that the First Order produces greater quality than the Empire that is stressed in this movie. Logically, he should be better than the randoms Ahsoka absolutely stomps.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Some lessons in common sense:

Can't say I'm holding my breath :maybe



Oh, the Inquisitor was Snoke's student?



What do we know about Snoke that even really suggests he matches Sidious in the first place beyond potential implications?

Or that Ren's training was anywhere near complete? Or we know the point Ren was even at in his training compared to an Inquisitor?

Even incompletely trained with basic knowledge, there's going to be a time they hold an edge over the neophyte apprentice. The apprentice isn't stronger from the get go by virtue of his apprenticeship



Worthless without any actual comparison linking what Sidious did with Snoke

How's a student of Snoke's compare to Sidious'?

Do we have anything telling us yet? Or is this all assumption based on feeling?



So you WERE going the nil substance route :hmm

Yeah, I feel as though I'd have suffocated taking your lesson seriously :maybe

Found the Inquisitor vs Ventress quote btw

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/3/5/c35956a1f8aba75f/RebelForceRadio_070315_DaveFiloni1.mp3?c_id=9340343&expiration=1451962571&hwt=43833e44643947facb904ec37d9d87cf

51:15 apparently

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123

Oh, the Inquisitor was Snoke's student?

Obviously not, which stresses the point. None of the Inquisitor's are the student of anyone. They're only taught enough to kill Jedi, which muggles can do. That's like their whole thing.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

How do you summon someone to complete their training if they haven't started it yet? That's like wow levels of wow.

Neophyte? He's been training since he was a young boy, both as a Jedi and whatever Snoke is. He's 30 years old. He's not a neophyte, kek.

Again, how is this relevant. By the very fact that Kylo is not barebones, he's ahead of the Inquisitor's in knowledge, and his potential is through the roof.

None of the Inquisitors are Sidious' students. Like none. Even if you consider Vader, Maul, or Dooku, that only stresses the point that not having complete training does not make you a "neophyte."

The amount of irony in this would put 20s America to shame. I built enough skyscrapers to turn New York into a small town. I built one to the moon and back, and have plans in motion to reach Mars soon. Where's your substance that the Inquisitor's are actually anything you claim they are when all they have done is lose to people who weren't even Knighted? Obviously, Kanan and Ahsoka aren't average, but pretending Kylo is even more retarded.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Obviously not, which stresses the point. None of the Inquisitor's are the student of anyone. They're only taught enough to kill Jedi, which muggles can do. That's like their whole thing.

So why are you trying to use this quote about him being the best student?



And being ignorant to how Inquisitor's get power, that's fair

Still makes Ren being Snoke's greatest student without actual known students to compare him to worthless



Indeed

Yet you're so assured his training is complete enough to compete with the feats of an Inquisitor

Curious :maybe



Time frame's irrelevant, given training in fiction it's as effective as the story requires it to be (Bleach is probably the most horrendous and glaring example ever)

His feats suck and his accolades are vague or lacking any real dots to connect with

Sans the feat I already attribute enough to grant him some powerscaling (the saber deflection), the rest of your argument is junk

Sure, only one part of the whole needs to function here, but I'm looking for how well you can defend your whole argument



He has vastly better potential, sure. That's obvious

What's your support that he's tapped into it enough to surpass the Inquisitors?

If all you have is the saber blocking, that's fine, I was just curious if you had more



That's what you're assuming

We're not really given any amazing insight into the quality of Ren's training

Substance, give me something. If all you've got is the tutaminis/barrier, that's all you need, but I was curious about there being more.



If you put this kind of effort into your argument, we'd be getting somewhere :maybe

This thread alone proves why NF > KMC in debating

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Found the Inquisitor vs Ventress quote btw

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/3/5/c35956a1f8aba75f/RebelForceRadio_070315_DaveFiloni1.mp3?c_id=9340343&expiration=1451962571&hwt=43833e44643947facb904ec37d9d87cf

51:15 apparently


Ahhh so the best Inquisitor is 'almost' like Ventress, but Ventress is more powerful.

According to ILS the Inquisitor knows every lightsaber form extensively.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ahhh so the best Inquisitor is 'almost' like Ventress, but Ventress is more powerful.

More or less

Still not a bad quote :hmm

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
This thread alone proves why NF > KMC in debating I think what it proves is that we don't have enough information on Kylo Ren to reach concrete conclusions.

That said Kylo has been described as "an incredible power, an incredible force, and incredible potential" by J.J, is descended from the most powerful lineage in mythos and has evidently developed his skills to a significant level. He may not have sufficient feats to support it (purely a result of a lack of exposure) but the idea that he is weaker than any one Inquisitor is pretty improbable imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think what it proves is that we don't have enough information on Kylo Ren to reach concrete conclusions.

What I figured

Though the lightsaber deflection is a good feat like previously noted



This is what I mean by "vague" though

Its a nice fluff accolade, but it hardly links him to anyone to play connect the dots with in terms of "power" and "force"

The potential is the only given seeing as he's a Skywalker.



I'd call the lightsaber deflection sufficient personally.

I however made this thread to possibly wring out more explicit accolades that may have been missed from forgotten interviews or something though.

You only need one feat or fact generally in a thread for an argument, but having multiple is always better to strengthen your position *shrugs*

And improbable? Yeah, I'd agree, but substance (not feeling or conjecture) is required to prove it.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
And improbable? Yeah, I'd agree, but substance (not feeling or conjecture) is required to prove it. No disagreement here.

And you're right, the lightsaber deflection feat is pretty impressive, especially when we account for the fact he was severely weakened and the energy they emit. mmm I also give him props for his Force stun ability as far as precision and mastery is concerned.

Also if you are looking for a compilation of feats/quotes here is a good respect thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/kylo-ren-respect-thread-1756638/

Thanks for the link, though I am aware of it

Just know that some feats/quotes can slip through the cracks (like I think I had to comment on the Canon Luke thread missing the script references to him deflecting Vader's TK in ESB and initially countering Sidious' lightning in RotJ), hence the purpose of this thread