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Barring Yoda(the obvious choice), who is the most incorruptible Jedi in the mythos? Which Jedi would simply never allow themselves to be influenced/tainted by any aspect of the dark side? Basically, who is the most good?

Same coin, which Sith has the greatest dark sided resolve? Which Sith would never allow themselves to be swayed/conflicted/redeemed by the light? Basically, who is the most evil?

I'm not trying to compare power here, but rather, a character's unconditional allegiance to a given side.


*Legends characters are free game.

Vitiate. Pre Valk, at least. Sidious is there too. Malgus.

for jedi, I'd probably say..Odan? Vodo? Kenobi?

Ben Kenobi stands as the quintessential Jedi besides Yoda, I'd say.

Palpatine is evil. He would never be redeemed. Darth Ruin is also up there:

"Ruin is the definition of pure evil, as I conceive of him and it. I'd say he is in the
Darth Traya mold, only Ruin broke the mold and then murdered the mold-maker."

GM Luke is also pretty damn quintessential as far as Jedi go.

Tldr; Revan

I have a good source.

Which Collector's Edition was it, Freshest?

Luke and Kenobi.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
GM Luke is also pretty damn quintessential as far as Jedi go.
He was tempted by Lumiya and Caedus pretty badly, tbh

But yeah, he's up there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which Collector's Edition was it, Freshest?
The French one, but the one released only in Singapore and two houses in India also claim Revan was perfect in all was and pure as snow.

The one that had him teleport away from the foundry battle into Vitiate's throne room and successfully assassinate Vitiate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was tempted by Lumiya and Caedus pretty badly, tbh

But yeah, he's up there. Vader goaded him into briefly snapping in RotJ. Palpatine swayed him to the dark side in DE.

Compared to some of the others out there, I don't think he'd rank that high in terms of incorruptibility, tbh. /shrug

Maul goaded Kenobi into briefly snapping twice and he's still among the greats.

Also talking bout Luke at the stage of his life where he was GM, after learning from DE that fighting darkness with darkness didn't work, hence why he didn't drink from the Font of Power to save his order.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul goaded Kenobi into briefly snapping twice and he's still among the greats.

Also talking bout Luke at the stage of his life where he was GM, after learning from DE that fighting darkness with darkness didn't work, hence why he didn't drink from the Font of Power to save his order. Ah, missed the 'GM' specification in your post. My bad.

I think the fact that Luke was tempted several times yet he still didn't give in is pretty impressive, so I'd put him on the list. Same with Obi Wan.

Yeah, Obi-Wan and the various old geezers who were honestly stuck up in their own way.

Originally posted by Galan007
Barring Yoda(the obvious choice), who is the most incorruptible Jedi in the mythos? Which Jedi would simply never allow themselves to be influenced/tainted by any aspect of the dark side? Basically, who is the most good?


Callista. She refused to use the dark side even when it was the only way she could feel the Force at all.

Also Scout. Given that she could barely use the Force the idea of quick and easy power must have been especially tempting but she resisted it completely. Jai Maruk even commented on this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Same coin, which Sith has the greatest dark sided resolve? Which Sith would never allow themselves to be swayed/conflicted/redeemed by the light? Basically, who is the most evil?

Daimon. He was so without empathy he didn't even think of other beings as real.

Barring Luke, Yoda and Sidious, I'd say Kenobi and Maul are the perfect Jedi and Sith/Darksiders respectively. Neither one would sway to the other side IMO.

^ Yeah, I didn't put a "no Palpatine" clause in the dark siders section, because I think him being the most evil Sith or whathaveyou is a lot more arguable than Yoda being the most incorruptible Jedi.

Especially with Legends material included. /shrug

For the jedi I'd say Quinlan Vos. For the sith.... Always Quinlan Vos da Boss

Obi-Wan probably. Because of all the Jedi he's just about the only one who's close to being a real ****ing person who can handle emotions and morality in a healthy way.

Or maybe that Fey chick.

Sidious. Even Vitiate has some nice qualities and doesn't straight up enjoy being as evil as he possibly can be.

Obi-Wan's way of handling emotion is not healthy or right. That was kind of the point to the OT.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
For the jedi I'd say Quinlan Vos. For the sith.... Always Quinlan Vos da Boss
and there goes the last piece of logic left on kmc

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Barring Luke, Yoda and Sidious, I'd say Kenobi and Maul are the perfect Jedi and Sith/Darksiders respectively. Neither one would sway to the other side IMO. I don't know about Maul, definitely dedicated to an extreme but I always felt his grasp of the dark side was incomplete and he was very much indoctrinated/brainwashed into thinking a certain way from a young age.

Sidious basically gave him a personality, and stamped anything to the contrary, so there is potentially another/buried side to him that could be teased out. Someone like Palpatine or Bane on the other hand who considered and chose the dark side simply doesn't have that weakness.

Kylo Ren.

He killed his own father and passed the test. He succeeded where Vader failed.

^ LMAO @ your Quan imitation.

Nomi Sunrider is definitely near the top. Her husband was murdered right in front of her and she still remained firmly in the light.

For Sith I think it would honestly be Nihilus. Given his relationship with the Dark Side (a slave to the hunger it gives him), redemption should be effectively impossible for him. He has no human connections or feelings that could persuade him toward the Light.

Was waiting for someone to mention him.

Coming at this from a movie perspective.

Originally posted by Galan007
Barring Yoda(the obvious choice), who is the most incorruptible Jedi in the mythos? Which Jedi would simply never allow themselves to be influenced/tainted by any aspect of the dark side? Basically, who is the most good?
Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Galan007
Same coin, which Sith has the greatest dark sided resolve? Which Sith would never allow themselves to be swayed/conflicted/redeemed by the light? Basically, who is the most evil?
Darth Maul. The other Sith Lords could probably be swayed if there was something they could gain for it. Darth Maul seemed to have almost a religious reverence for the dark side.

Originally posted by NemeBro
For Sith I think it would honestly be Nihilus. Given his relationship with the Dark Side (a slave to the hunger it gives him), redemption should be effectively impossible for him. He has no human connections or feelings that could persuade him toward the Light.
Nihilius wasn't a regular Force user though, he was a Force wound. He didn't use the dark side the way regular Sith Lords do.

Anakin Solo for Jedi.

Originally posted by Astner
Nihilius wasn't a regular Force user though, he was a Force wound. Nihilus was still a dark side user/Sith Lord, though(which is what my OP asks.) Him being described as a wound in the force or whathaveyou isn't much different than Dooku describing Palpatine as "a black hole of the force", imo.

It's a lot different.

Honestly, agreed somewhat. Considering that outside of Nathema actual voids in the force aren't a thing, Nihilus and Meetra's status as "wounds" is probably a lot less complicated than KOTOR II seems to make it out to be. As is the case with most of the things that came out of KOTOR II.

That being said, despite the fact that he's more of a mindless monster than a conscious evildoer, I agree that Nihilus is arguably the least capable of returning to the light side of the Force. And I like your description of Maul's relationship with the Dark Side, tbh Beni.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's a lot different. No, it's not.

That is what Dooku(who was massively force-empowered at the time) literally saw/sensed from Palpatine, "with exhilarating precision."

Yes, it is. Dooku was being metaphorical when describing Sidious as a black hole, his intentions being to capture the extent of his darkness.

When Nihilus is described as a wound, it is a literal reference to his nature as a dead spot in the Force, where the Living Force does not exist.

Sidious doesn't possess any of Nihilus' unique characteristics to suggest they are even remotely similar.Originally posted by NewGuy01
And I like your description of Maul's relationship with the Dark Side, tbh Beni. Thanks.

I'm honestly wondering if this is something that might be explored in future content, with Maul masterless, motherless and purposeless.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it's not.

That is what Dooku(who was massively force-empowered at the time) literally saw/sensed from Palpatine, "with exhilarating precision."

Are you not familiar with the concept of hyperbole?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Are you not familiar with the concept of hyperbole?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, it is. Dooku was being metaphorical when describing Sidious as a black hole, his intentions being to capture the extent of his darkness.

When Nihilus is described as a wound, it is a literal reference to his nature as a dead spot in the Force, where the Living Force does not exist.
And when Palpatine was described to us through the eyes of Dooku, "with exhilarating precision" mind you, it was also a literal reference to his nature as a black hole of the force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious doesn't possess any of Nihilus' unique characteristics to suggest they are even remotely similar. I never suggested that Palpatine and Nihilus were similar characters. At all.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Are you not familiar with the concept of hyperbole? Yes. And describing a character's position in the force "with exhilarating precision" =/= simple hyperbole, imo. That is literally(not figuratively) how Dooku perceived Palpatine.

Lulz. Just let it go.

Lulz. Just explaining why it's simply not as cut-and-dry as some like to think.

No, you're just making yourself look hella foolish for literally no reason. Sidious wasn't a black hole in the force in any shape our form.

Wow. Shots fired.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, you're just making yourself look hella foolish for literally no reason. Sidious wasn't a black hole in the force in any shape our form. Dooku: "And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

Again: that is literally how Dooku perceived Palpatine through the eyes of the force itself... And once more, the entire scene was premised with this narrative:
"Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision."

Writing that off as simple hyperbole is "hella foolish", imo.

The unwarranted bashing is cute, though.

That's great. What you just repeated again based off of not just your opinion, but your opinion of an opinion. Too bad it's fact Nihilus was a black hole and Palpatine wasn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Tldr; Revan

I have a good source.

Technically, he never turned. It's his new personality that became good.

Same convoluted thing could have happened to anybody, even Palpatine.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's great. What you just repeated again based off of not just your opinion, but your opinion of an opinion. Too bad it's fact Nihilus was a black hole and Palpatine wasn't. Um, my 'opinion' is based on exactly what we were told Dooku saw/sensed from Palpatine. Deflect/bash all you want, but that IS how Dooku("with exhilarating precision" perceived Palpatine in the force.

And lets please try not to act like Dooku is just some random feeb whose word on force-related matters is subject to question/doubt... Especially when we're dealing with a force-related matter that he personally sensed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Um, my 'opinion' is based on exactly what we were told Dooku saw/sensed from Palpatine. Deflect/bash all you want, but that IS how Dooku("with exhilarating precision" perceived Palpatine in the force.

When I use the exact words "I'll finish it in no time," that is not meant literally. Whatever I'm attempting will still take 'some' time. I just mean it won't take long.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. And describing a character's position in the force "with exhilarating precision" =/= simple hyperbole, imo.

Uh, that's still hyperbole. Saying "with exhilarating precision" like they're some kind of magic words doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Galan007
And lets please try not to act like Dooku is just some random feeb whose word on force-related matters is subject to question/doubt... Especially when we're dealing with a force-related matter that he personally sensed.

Beg your pardon but EVERYONE'S word is subject to question/doubt to some degree. Even if said person is highly knowledgeable on a subject they are not omniscient and thus fallible.

Anyway, Bultar Swan definitely belongs on the "most incorruptible" list. Not only did she refuse to take a life until absolutely forced to, she was willing to show mercy to Darth Vader when he surrendered despite everything he had done.

Bultar Swan is underrated, she's on the level just below ROTS Kenobi in all-out combat. Given both of their backgrounds it only makes sense for her to be near his level, rather than far from it.

wut

It has to be true, the great and mighty Reti4 has said so

amen

Originally posted by cdtm
Technically, he never turned. It's his new personality that became good.

Same convoluted thing could have happened to anybody, even Palpatine.
Have you never seen anything about TOR ever?

Originally posted by Galan007
I never suggested that Palpatine and Nihilus were similar characters. At all.At all?

Brah I don't think you're understanding the point it is you are making.

You said Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force "isn't much different" (or rather similar) to Palpatine being described as a black hole.

A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist, therefore by your logic this is "not much different" from what Dooku is describing Palpatine to be, despite their being zero indication of that being the case. That or you're saying Sidious' nature as an deeply powerful dark sider is all Nihilus is (which contradicts other sources) either way you are undoubtedly stating them to be similar.

So would you like to revise your stance or what?

P.S. The words "black hole" have never actually been used to describe Nihilus, so really I should be asking you to prove it refers to remotely the same concept first.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bultar Swan is underrated, she's on the level just below ROTS Kenobi in all-out combat. Given both of their backgrounds it only makes sense for her to be near his level, rather than far from it.

Is there supposed to be a point to this?

You do realise this thread has nothing to do with "all out combat" or "levels" don't you? It's about who is least susceptible to corruption and Bultar is definitely one of those individuals.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bultar Swan is underrated,

That is true.

Originally posted by Galan007
Dooku: "And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

Again: that is literally how Dooku perceived Palpatine through the eyes of the force itself... And once more, the entire scene was premised with this narrative:
"Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision."

Writing that off as simple hyperbole is "hella foolish", imo.

The unwarranted bashing is cute, though.

Lol @ thinking that's being literal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist,

Such things don't exist. The Force is life, so life cannot exist without the Force. This concept is addressed and explained in the novel "Traitor". Beings who have been stripped of the Force, like Meetra, and even parties who don't appear to exist within the Force, like the Yuuzhan Vong, are not exceptions to this rule.

Just like light waves have numerous frequencies, most of which the human eye cannot detect, the Force exists on many different levels. But it's omnipresent. It cannot be ruptured by pain or death; rather, these cancerous things are of the dark side, as is Nihilus.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
When I use the exact words "I'll finish it in no time," that is not meant literally. Whatever I'm attempting will still take 'some' time. I just mean it won't take long.



Uh, that's still hyperbole. Saying "with exhilarating precision" like they're some kind of magic words doesn't change that.



Beg your pardon but EVERYONE'S word is subject to question/doubt to some degree. Even if said person is highly knowledgeable on a subject they are not omniscient and thus fallible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Such things don't exist. The Force is life, so life cannot exist without the Force. This concept is addressed and explained in the novel "Traitor". Beings who have been stripped of the Force, like Meetra, and even parties who don't appear to exist within the Force, like the Yuuzhan Vong, are not exceptions to this rule.

Just like light waves have numerous frequencies, most of which the human eye cannot detect, the Force exists on many different levels. But it's omnipresent. It cannot be ruptured by pain or death; rather, these cancerous things are of the dark side, as is Nihilus. Exactly, a wound in the Force is a place where there is no life, because of an absence of living Force energy.

This is why worlds like Nathema and Ziost are completely lifeless to the point of being devoid of color, why Nihilus' wound literally devoured his living body (and arguably his mind), why when Kreia drains the Jedi Masters they are described as "worse than lifeless like an absence in the Force" and why she and the other masters see in the Exile the literal death of the Force.

But yes, the Force exists on multiple frequencies, namely also as cosmic Force energy (the omnipresent aspect that binds everything together) which presumably remains even when living Force energy is no longer present. Cosmic energy can also be of the dark side, and is very likely the "frequency" through which the echoes/disturbances created by wounds are transmitted.

The Living Force doesn't appear to be omnipresent however as it's sustained by life and therefore can be ruptured by death, the Cosmic Force however is, though powers that rend space and time arguably rupture it. At least that's my understanding of it.

On the other hand writing off Nihilus as just a dark side cancer really doesn't do much or anything to explain his unique characteristics (that a black hole like Sheev doesn't possess), and the nature of wounds as it appears to KOTOR II and indeed in subsequent TOR content.

P.S. I can understand how Vong can be part of the Living Force but perhaps in a similar way to ysalamiri supress it's influence (not well versed tbh) but they are never described as or in a similar manner to wounds per my knowledge.

As far as the Exile is concerned, I think it's a question of extremities, the Exile appear to have her ability to hear the Force dulled but not totally removed, whereas the Jedi Masters were entirely extricated from its living aspect through the same power/process.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ thinking that's being literal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly, a wound in the Force is a place where there is no life, because of an absence of living Force energy.

Except, that clearly isn't the case. Wounds in the Force--as they're described by Kreia--actually echo pain and suffering, and are strong in the dark side of the Force. Neither of these characteristics befit an absence in the Force.



Nathema and Ziost are how they are because Vitiate's ritual supposedly rips the force itself from these worlds. (Which also seems kinda baloney-ish, but I'll save that for later.)

Regardless, Meetra pretty much confirmed in Revan that Malachor wasn't just a lesser Nathema, but rather it's exact opposite.



1.) The dark side corrodes the mind and body.

2.) Nihilus, despite how ****ed up he is, is still alive.



Well, the real answer is "because KOTOR II really made no goddamn sense". My best rationalization for it is simply that the masters viewed the new draining techniques of the Sith as cancerous to the Force. That, or, they were simply wrong.

After all, if Meetra were truly a gap in the living force, she would not be alive. Period. No exceptions.



No, I'm referring to the Living Force exclusively. The Living Force is what binds the living to the cosmic Force; it cannot be accessed directly. The Vong existed on a different frequency on the Living Force, as did the Force-stripped Jacen in "Traitor".



The only truly unique characteristic I can think of about Nihilus is his hunger...

Them being an absence of the Force is something that the Council said. The concept itself exists only in KotOR II anyway.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
At all?

Brah I don't think you're understanding the point it is you are making.

You said Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force "isn't much different" (or rather similar) to Palpatine being described as a black hole.

A wound in the Force is a dead spot where the Living Force doesn't exist, therefore by your logic this is "not much different" from what Dooku is describing Palpatine to be, despite their being zero indication of that being the case. That or you're saying Sidious' nature as an deeply powerful dark sider is all Nihilus is (which contradicts other sources) either way you are undoubtedly stating them to be similar.

So would you like to revise your stance or what?

P.S. The words "black hole" have never actually been used to describe Nihilus, so really I should be asking you to prove it refers to remotely the same concept first. Brah, I think you entirely misunderstood me, and should have asked for clarification if you had questions, instead coming up with these wild conclusions yourself.

I never compared Palpatine and Nihilus as characters. Ever. I merely pointed out that using the "Nihilus was a wound in the force" argument on his behalf, isn't much different than using the "Palpatine was a black hole in the force" argument on his behalf. Why? Because both statements merely give us metaphysical descriptions of said characters, when viewed entirely from an in-force perspective.

Point being: metaphysical descriptions of a character do not necessarily supersede that character's personal actions(which are what matter most in the spirit of this thread.)

Hopefully that was clearer for you.

Ah my bad, sorry for coming off as aggressive. I was given the wrong impression by you're claim Dooku was being literal, I mean shouldn't by this logic it be a metaphorical description, for both of them? Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Them being an absence of the Force is something that the Council said. The concept itself exists only in KotOR II anyway. "Them" was the dead Council, the player is told they are an absence in the Force by the game when you investigate their bodies.

And Ziost and Nathema are absences in the Force too.

Damn, Galan humbled Beni too, LOL.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Them" was the dead Council, the player is told they are an absence in the Force by the game when you investigate their bodies.

And Ziost and Nathema are absences in the Force too.
Also true, but the Council speak on it as well after the trial, as well as when you meet them. The games conflicted in this note. Visas says she can since the Exile, but the Council says they cannot, and so on.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah my bad, sorry for coming off as aggressive. I was given the wrong impression by you're claim Dooku was being literal, I mean shouldn't by this logic it be a metaphorical description, for both of them? Both statements represent in-force/metaphysical vernacular that was used to describe what was saw/sensed/felt from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough from the get-go. Hopefully it's clearer now..?

Originally posted by quanchi112


Thanks.

I was about to say Qui-Gon but then I remembered he nearly fell to the dark side in JA.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Also true, but the Council speak on it as well after the trial, as well as when you meet them. The games conflicted in this note. Visas says she can since the Exile, but the Council says they cannot, and so on. The Council observed as much when she was still severed from the Force, by the time the she encounters Visas she'd largely regained her connection.Originally posted by Galan007
Both statements represent in-force/metaphysical vernacular that was used to describe what was saw/sensed/felt from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear enough from the get-go. Hopefully it's clearer now..? Hmm, I'd still say being described with similar vernacular would imply similarity, at least "metaphysically."

Which presents an issue IMO, unless you take the descriptions to just be metaphor.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except, that clearly isn't the case. Wounds in the Force--as they're described by Kreia--actually echo pain and suffering, and are strong in the dark side of the Force. Neither of these characteristics befit an absence in the Force.An absence in the living Force. Echoes of pain and suffering are not living, they are echoes of past events and would therefore fall under the cosmic Force, much like Rey was able to feel echoes of the past from an inanimate, lifeless object.

Which can again be of the dark side, like the dark side shroud the Sith used to cloud the Jedi Order.Which supports the notion that the living Force can be removed for places entirely.Malachor is different to Nathema & Ziost though, the Force wasn't forcibly stripped from it, just a place were a lot of death happened, which probably didn't have the same extreme effects.

The description of Malachor V suggests that while it has a wound in the Force at his epicenter, it remains a planet strong in the dark side that feeds off the echoes pain and suffering created by the wound.1) It did more then corrode his mind and body, it consumed it entirely. And yet despite being more powerful, Palpatine is less corroded.

2) His living body had perished and Kreia describes him as "already dead", suggesting than eventually he'd cease to exist entirely. That is not how typical dark side corruption works.That would be possible if Kreia, whose outlook on the Force was pretty neutral, viewed Meetra as a place where the Force "might die" as well.

The dead Jedi Masters are also objectively described by the game as absences.The wound is inside her, Meetra is not the wound, but it stands to reason that if she fed it she would eventually be destroyed like Nihilus.

And if you liken the wound to a black hole, the Exile's life energy could exist in the vicinity/beyond the event horizon, and if you interpret wound literally, its something that damages but doesn't necessarily destroy.OK, and that makes sense.

But again none of them were actually referred to as wounds, so there is no proof a wound in the Force exists on one of these "frequencies." Which is itself bizarre, unless you acknowledge Nihilus requires the living Force to 'live', so would constantly be driven to devour living things.

Nihilus' ability to consume the force was never questioned... Nor was his status as an anomaly/wound in the force.

Nothing pertaining to Nihilus was put into question, actually.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hmm, I'd still say being described with similar vernacular would imply similarity, at least "metaphysically."

Which presents an issue IMO, unless you take the descriptions to just be metaphor. It still doesn't seem that you understand my point. mmm

The statements are only similar in the sense that they are both in-force, metaphysical descriptions of the power/darkness/energy/juju that was sensed from Nihilus and Palpatine respectively. ie. Nihilus was described as a wound in the force; Palpatine was described as a black hole in the force. Again: both are just metaphysical descriptions of their status within the force itself. That is where the 'similarity' I mentioned ends: at the vernacular used in those specific statements.

Once more: I am not, and never was, comparing these characters directly, so there's no need to continue fixating on that. I really can't break it down any better/further than that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
snip.
Meetra after become unsevered until the game ends, and others can still sense her. Maybe it's just a dumb plot point, and even on Dantooine, it's stated she hasn't changed at all. Meetra used the Force through her friends and mentor.

But then you have random on the Citadel being able to sense her too.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Have you never seen anything about TOR ever?

Played TOR 1 a long time ago.

All I rememeber about it, is the main character has no memory of his past, and ends up being an evil sith lord in his old life, and Malaks boss.

You can go dark side or light side thanks to his "clean slate" status, e.g. a guy who forgot everything about his life, effectively making him a new character.

That, and a really bad racing mini game. And being able to plant car bombs..

Homie that's KotOR. TOR has Revan turning evil twice, one time with its own expansion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus being a wound was an actual thing that changed his nature. Palpatine being a "black hole" was a ****ing metaphor. You realize that Nihilus being described as a wound in the force is also a "****ing metaphor" which was used to describe his essential nature as a character on a metaphysical level, correct?

Your personal perception of the character is the only reason you'd think otherwise, but that's all subjective.

No, I did not know that actually. Because it's not true.

It is.

Nihilus' essential nature as a character(his insatiable hunger) is what made Visas view him as a wound in the force--it's not as if she saw some kind of literal tear in the force itself before making said statement. It was a metaphysical/metaphorical description pertaining to Nihilus' status within the force... Not unlike Dooku's statement, which likened Palaptine to a black hole when viewed from a metaphysical/in-force perspective, but I digress.

Point being: you may believe Visas was being literal. That's fine. However, her comment still referred to Nihilus on a metaphysical/metaphorical level. Yes.

Did you actually play the game?

I did.

That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger.

Originally posted by Galan007
I did.

That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger. No, I'm pretty sure Nihilus being described as a wound in the Force is literally describing what he is and how his powers work. Nihilus, like the Exile, has essentially no power over the Force in of himself. He leeches the power of others to strengthen his own command over it. The Exile being a wound in the Force is an in-universe explanation for RPG mechanics like getting experience and leveling up. Nihilus' power is similar; he gets stronger when he consumes life, and the longer he goes without feeding the weaker he gets.

Compare to Sidious, who is never indicated to be particularly unique in how he uses the Force (save that his command of it is monstrous, of course) like Nihilus does. That's what makes the statement about Sidious from Dark Rendezvous and the one about Nihilus in Kotor 2 different. Dooku was describing how he perceived Sidious, whereas Visas and Kreia described Nihilus (and the Exile) as he actually was. When Sidious is called a "black hole in the Force" it's like an adjective, meant to hype up his power over the Dark Side. When Nihilus is called a "wound in the Force", it's like a noun. That isn't a word used to describe what Nihilus is, it's just what Nihilus is.

I don't necessarily disagree with you(again, I have no issue with the statement about Nihilus being taken literally.)

Where my opinion differs(slightly) is in the fact that Visas did use the aforementioned phrase descriptively:
"He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies... Sacrificing itself to his hunger."

ie. "wound in the force" was used to help describe Nihilus' insatiable hunger, on a metaphysical level.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Meetra after become unsevered until the game ends, and others can still sense her. Maybe it's just a dumb plot point, and even on Dantooine, it's stated she hasn't changed at all. Meetra used the Force through her friends and mentor. Well the way the Masters describe her is through non-specific metaphor, I don't think it can be claimed that they couldn't sense anything full stop i.e. she could be right behind them and they'd feel nothing. They felt her as an absence, others might see her in a different way/with a different perspective.

Not sure anyone ever felt her as just a normal Force user tho.Originally posted by Galan007
I did.

That's why I don't have an issue with Nihilus' status. All I am saying is that the specific comment from Visas that is being discussed here, was spoken from a metaphysical/metaphorical POV. Again: she didn't actually see a physical rip/tear/gape/wound/cut/hole in the force itself when that statement was made--she based it on his essential nature as a character--his hunger. Well actually the way wounds are described suggests yes they can be felt quite distinctly as literal absences, and seeing as Visas sees through the Force, Nihilus would presumably appear as a big black hole to her in a very literal/physical way. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure anyone ever felt her as just a normal Force user tho.Well actually the way wounds are described suggests yes they can be felt as literal absences, and seeing as Visas sees through the Force, Nihilus would presumably appear as a big black hole to her in a very literal/physical way. Just my opinion though. That very well may have been how she literally perceived Nihilus at the metaphysical level.

Same coin, I believe Dooku literally perceived Palpatine as he was described as well(metaphysically, of course):
"Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force."

That, too, is just my opinion, however.

I believe I see what you're saying, but I think the issue is people are latching on to the perceived indication on your part of a similarity between Nihilus' and Palpatine's description as black holes/wounds, which would suggest they are metaphysically similar.

Whereas if I understand it correctly, your argument is that the are similar only in the use metaphysical vernacular (or rather abstract concepts), not necessarily the vernacular of a wound in the Force (specifically in terms of Palpatine).

Would that be an accurate assessment?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I believe I see what you're saying, but I think the issue is people are latching on to the perceived indication on your part of a similarity between Nihilus' and Palpatine's description as black holes/wounds, which would suggest they are metaphysically similar.

Whereas if I understand it correctly, your argument is that the are similar only in the use metaphysical vernacular (or rather abstract concepts), not necessarily the vernacular of a wound in the Force (specifically in terms of Palpatine).

Would that be an accurate assessment? More or less.

Cool, so I'd imagine you'd compare the description of Nihilus to Kenobi's as a "sunlit meadow" and Skywalker's as a "storm cloud" as well?

On a semi-unrelated note, a black hole isn't a term that can be really applied to Nihilus anyway. A black hole is a place of extremely compacted mass/energy (a fitting description for Palpatine as a practical Force nexus), whereas Nihilus would be an absence of mass altogether.

In fact the word "black hole" is never used to describe Nihilus once.

Beni claiming to be the first person to actually understand a black hole now too.

ROFL

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On a semi-unrelated note, a black hole isn't a term that can be really applied to Nihilus anyway. A black hole is a place of extremely compacted mass/energy (a fitting description for Palpatine as a practical Force nexus), whereas Nihilus would be an absence of mass altogether.

In fact the word "black hole" is never used to describe Nihilus once. none

I feel like I confused you at some point, so Ima just drop the Palpatine/Nihilus thing and let the thread play out how it was originally intended.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't necessarily disagree with you(again, I have no issue with the statement about Nihilus being taken literally.)

Where my opinion differs(slightly) is in the fact that Visas did use the aforementioned phrase descriptively:
"He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies... Sacrificing itself to his hunger."

ie. "wound in the force" was used to help describe Nihilus' insatiable hunger, on a metaphysical level.

Visas' statement is literal though. He is more presence than flesh, he doesn't have any, and in his wake life dies, people die in his mere presence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Visas' statement is literal though. He is more presence than flesh, he doesn't have any, and in his wake life dies, people die in his mere presence. Yes, and those literal facts are why she described him as a metaphysical wound in the force. ie. her statement describes both the tangible(physical) and intangible(metaphysical) aspects of his essential nature. So far as I recall, she/they couldn't see a physical wound/rip in the force itself--hence it was a metaphysical assertion.

That's all I'm saying.

Whereas Dooku's description is merely flowery metaphor, just like Obi-Wan "was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force" and Anakin "was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado."

The only thing his statement means is "he's super darksidey".

And no, Visas could see that. Shes a miraluka, she can literally see a wound in the Force and has explicitly stated in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard that Nihilus showed her what the universe looked like without the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only thing his statement means is "he's super darksidey". And in that utter darkness/absence of light, he was literally akin to a black hole.

Hopefully you(or anyone else) didn't think I was of the opinion that Palpatine was actually a real black hole or w/e, and walked around absorbing shit... If so, there was a big miscommunication somewhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And no, Visas could see that. Shes a miraluka, she can literally see a wound in the Force and has explicitly stated in Kotor 2 and Unseen, Unheard that Nihilus showed her what the universe looked like without the Force. Even though I don't think it was explicitly stated, whether she could or could not really 'see' a physical rip in the force is irrelevant. Her 'wound' statement still describes the metaphysical aspect of Nihilus' character.

Originally posted by Galan007
none

I feel like I confused you at some point, so Ima just drop the Palpatine/Nihilus thing and let the thread play out how it was originally intended. That's why I said it was unrelated

Haven't messed with Star Wars in a while but isn't Mace Windu up there?

Kenobi for light

Sidious for dark