Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

To spice this up a bit I'll outline a few questions to spark interest, you don't have to address all or any of them if you don't want to.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

Even though I prefer TPM, TFA will win almost all your questions for me.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Rey. She was just more developed.

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Finn

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: Poe

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Kylo, just a far more interesting character. Maul was a quiet, cool looking villain and that's about it. I preferred Maul's saberstaff.

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Qui-Gon if you take the rest of the movies into account.

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Padme. She convinced the Gungans to help them against the droid army.

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: R2. He's just too iconic. I really enjoyed BB8, though.

Story vs Story: TFA

id go tea every time save amidala

The problem with, TPM is that everyone expected a certain story to have been told which wasn't. "Yes...,great chances were taken but it was still..,made to be a marketable product". Rather than story that was never meant to be successful before marketable. That's the same way i felt after watching episode7. Although, i have hope the future installments will fill in the many blanks. Until, then.i paid to watch a really cool remembrance of the...,"original, trilogy".

TFA; hands down.

Originally posted by Astner
To spice this up a bit I'll outline a few questions to spark interest, you don't have to address all or any of them if you don't want to.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?


Rey. Obi-Wan only really came into his own as a character in Attack of the Clones IMO. He seemed a bit generic compared to how fleshed out Rey was in TFA.

Originally posted by Astner

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--nBbtzoPbss/UQChHvv1baI/AAAAAAAAXXw/PAJJI83ZJfo/s1600/top-Star-Wars-CloneTrooper-punches-jar-jar-binks-600x318.jpg

Originally posted by Astner

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?


Poe was more enjoyable not only as a pilot, but as a character overall.

Originally posted by Astner

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?


Kylo. Maul had a cool design and everything, but so did Kylo. And Kylo, being a main character, was a lot more fleshed out in TFA than Maul was in TPM.

Originally posted by Astner

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?


In terms of the narrative, Qui-Gon's death has had a bigger impact so far in the long run, but we have yet to fully see how Solo's death affects everyone, including Kylo. At the time, Solo's death definitely evoked a much greater emotional response though.

Originally posted by Astner

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?


Padme here. Leia did very little, other than hug a girl she shouldn't even know.

Originally posted by Astner

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?


R2D2 remains the classic.

Originally posted by Astner

Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

The Phantom Menace put me off from Star Wars, where as The Force Awakens got me interested again, so this one obviously goes to TFA.

Originally posted by Astner

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?


What the ever loving f*ck kind of question is this?

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/youre_serious_futurama.gif

Originally posted by Astner
To spice this up a bit I'll outline a few questions to spark interest, you don't have to address all or any of them if you don't want to.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Obi-Wan was the protagonist of TPM? Huh. Also Rey every day. She's way more engaging, likeable and interesting. Better acted and more charismatic too.

Originally posted by Astner
Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

lol

Originally posted by Astner
Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

lol

Originally posted by Astner
Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Kylo Ren. He's an actual character compared to Maul basically just being a slasher villain.

Originally posted by Astner
Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Han.

Originally posted by Astner
Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

Leia. Amidala was so shit that her presence was actively offensive to me. So even though she had more of an impact, it was negative.

Originally posted by Astner
R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

BB-8 was amazing. R2-D2 didn't get a lot of character or a chance to show any personality in TPM, unfortunately.

Originally posted by Astner
Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

TPM was dogshit.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Rey is a lame ass Mary-Sue, even in this under developed stage of the franchise, Obi Wan is a far superior character.

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Finn, obviously.

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: I barely remember Poe, so Anikan I guess.

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Maul by a country mile. Silent powerful type > childish asshat who throws a b*tch fit every time something doesn't go his way.

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Probably Han's but we'll have to see what the consequences are in further films.

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Amidala. Carrie Fisher trying to seriously act post drugs kind of just made me sad.

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: BB is charming in his own way, but he's no R2

Story vs Story: I dunno, neither were that good, TBH.

Obi-Wan was not a protagonist: he didn't do anything and he had no arc. Rey had a small arc, but was not boring. TPM OB1 was.

Finn outshines JarJar in every way.

Poe was the better pilot. Anakin was no pilot did everything by sheer luck. Very silly pilot that little kid.

Darth Maul was just a dog, all make-up no content. Kylo Ren is a real character.

Han Solo's death and more impact. In case of QGJ I didn't quite get why they were fighting and why he died. QGJ's death was very random.

R2D2 in TPM was quite obsolete and forced in. BB-8 was awesome.

TPM Story: hardly there, totally incomprehensible: no protagonist and what the antagonist is trying to do is totally unclear (as in: what what the blockade supposed to achieve, what was the treaty for, was it always Sidious' plan that Amidala escaped so she could depose Valorum, was it always his plan that they'd capture the viceroy etc etc) - the weirdest incoherent sequence of events I ever say in a movie.

TFA: not a very original but it worked. So TFA clearly rules.

Originally posted by Astner
To spice this up a bit I'll outline a few questions to spark interest, you don't have to address all or any of them if you don't want to.

Oh Astner, you silly goose.

Originally posted by Astner
Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

This is the weirdest category since OB1 isn't really the main protagonist imo. Qui-Gon and Padme are. As it stands, his arc is perfectly serviceable. Rey is unquestionably the main character but...well she's not a Mary Sue but her ability to do whatever the plot actively needs her to do at the moment gets grating and her arc needed to go through a few rewrites. On the flipside, she gets bonus points for being a lady lead in a blockbuster picture. The biggest upside to TFA doing so well is that maybe Hollywood will finally start letting more actresses take center stage in action stories. Overall...kind of a tie to me, maybe leaning towards Rey.

Originally posted by Astner
Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

In theory, both have rather okay character arcs. In practice, Finn is a lot more enjoyable, even if the ending of the film does give you the middle finger for being invested in him.

Originally posted by Astner
Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Well I mean Poe is obviously the better pilot but that's because Anakin's antics are supposed to be comical to an extent. He accidentally blew up a space station. He also has far more interesting character moments than people give him credit. It's weird how the "Maul is a tool-Kylo Ren is a character" logic doesn't seem to apply here. Anakin is simply a better character due to having material to work with besides being a good pilot.

Originally posted by Astner
Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Lightsaber's are a tie. Were I in the world of Star Wars, I'd like a sword like Ren's because it feels more knightly and I like it. But Maul's is more over the top awesome and makes for the more fun toy.

As for character, Maul of course. He obviously believes himself to be part of something grand and epic but it is clear by the end that Palpatine was utterly indifferent to what happened to him. It's subtle but it works as a good foil to OB1 and Qui-Gon. Also helps that for being a villain that doesn't get much to do that EU material and even the Clone Wars cartoon kept trying to use him. He's also just iconic looking.

Kylo Ren....well it is obvious what they're doing with him. They're making a villain who is pathetic to show how pathetic falling to the Dark side really is. But...I just don't feel it. He doesn't feel threatening because not a single hero hesitates to back talk/fight him, even one like Finn. Hell even the Stormtroopers just sort of ignore him when he gets pissed. While he is certainly pathetic, he doesn't provide enough of a threat for me to take him seriously as a villain like other pathetic villains(Light Yagami, Zhao, and even Anakin). For the guy who killed Han Solo, I don't really hate him. I just want him to leave.

Originally posted by Astner
Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Qui-Gon rather easily. Without him who knows what would have happened to Naboo. He helped bring peace to two species that didn't like each other and his death makes the dynamic between OB1 and Anakin more tragic. It was OB1's first student and he failed so spectacularly. It worked as a stand alone death and helped make the overall story more fun.

Han's death only has so much impact because Han has 3 movies behind him and honestly I don't miss him. The guy became a loser later on in life and was a garbage parent who put more emphasis on finding an old spaceship than his kid. That's just me though.

Originally posted by Astner
Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

Padme? For actually being involved in the plot instead of just sending a couple people to do things for her. Leia was more active as a princess than a general, which is hilarious.

Originally posted by Astner
R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

Artoo kept the cast from dying and is his usual charming Artoo self. BB-8 is fun but can't really affect the plot in really meaningful ways. He's mostly just the droid with the map whenever he's needed to do stuff.

Originally posted by Astner
Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

TPM has a more original/interesting story for Star Wars but TFA tells it's story better. Normally I'd give the nod to the one that takes more chances, which would be TPM, but because of the unfortunate implications regarding racial stereotypes in the various aliens. While I personally never saw them as a kid, my experience as a kid doesn't reflect all kids and a movie should never run the risk of making a party seem unwelcome, especially something as nice as Star Wars.

So there's my two cents.

It's honestly kind of blowing my mind reading all of that as your serious opinion.

Also I feel like comparing Amidala and Leia is kind of dumb since they have completely different roles. Amidala is supposed to be one of the lead characters on par with Leia in ANH. While General Leia is more like Dondonna or Mon Mothma.

BB8>All droids

Much funnier then R2.

Where is R2 is a classic, he is stubborn and not much personality.

BB8 was lovable and funny.

There are a number of comparisons that don't work. Padme and Qui-Gon are the main characters, not Obi-Wan really, but they also aren't really comparable to Rey.

Yeah, Obi-Wan is practically a non-entity in TPM. He trails behind Qui-Gon who does all the talking, then he stays on the ship through all of Tatooine and then goes back to following Qui-Gon around until he dies and he has to fight Maul.

Why the hell are we comparing the masterpiece known as TFA to the piece of shit known as TPM?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why the hell are we comparing the masterpiece known as TFA to the piece of shit known as TPM?

Astner hates TFA, that is why

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, Obi-Wan is practically a non-entity in TPM. He trails behind Qui-Gon who does all the talking, then he stays on the ship through all of Tatooine and then goes back to following Qui-Gon around until he dies and he has to fight Maul.

I wouldn't say that. He has his own arc, it is just smaller and not the main focus.

Isn't his "arc" (and I really can't put enough quotation marks around that tbh) basically just:

"Aww geez Qui-Gon, I-I-I dunno about this...."

"Quiet Obi1, y-y-you gotta train Anakin!"

*Qui-Gon dies*

"Well I guess now I need to do what Qui-Gon said even if it's a bad idea."

In the broad strokes, all character arcs can be simplified. OB1's arc is about coming into his own as a Jedi. At the beginning of the film he is indeed nervous about the future and Obi-Wan basically tells him to be mindful of the present. Comes full circle when, while fighting Darth Maul, Obi-Wan is mindful of the lightsaber Maul forgot about and ultimately wins against a superior opponent. At the beginning he is being taught by a master and by the end he is telling Yoda to his face that he's going to follow Qui-Gon's wishes.

It's also not particularly Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon's fault that Anakin turned evil. It's mostly the councils fault.

But... he doesn't really. Swordfighting Darth Maul isn't coming into your own as a Jedi. It's fencing. Noticing Qui-Gon's saber is very superficial and an incredible stretch to point to as part of a character arc. That isn't being mindful of the present, that's having eyes. And Maul being a dumbass. You can call it subtle if you want, but I call is imaginary. Maybe if that was the case draw any amount of attention to the parallel. Like maybe he starts to panic but calms down then notices it. Or anything. Also part of the point is that Obi-Wan doesn't come in to his own as a Jedi. He isn't ready. Hence why he fails in training Anakin.

He makes no strides in terms of his character. He doesn't improve in any manner. He displays no great moments of personality beyond whining. He is an incredibly bland, somewhat annoying character throughout.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But... he doesn't really. Swordfighting Darth Maul isn't coming into your own as a Jedi. It's fencing. Noticing Qui-Gon's saber is very superficial and an incredible stretch to point to as part of a character arc. That isn't being mindful of the present, that's having eyes. And Maul being a dumbass. You can call it subtle if you want, but I call is imaginary. Maybe if that was the case draw any amount of attention to the parallel. Like maybe he starts to panic but calms down then notices it. Or anything. Also part of the point is that Obi-Wan doesn't come in to his own as a Jedi. He isn't ready. Hence why he fails in training Anakin.

He makes no strides in terms of his character. He doesn't improve in any manner. He displays no great moments of personality beyond whining. He is an incredibly bland, somewhat annoying character throughout.

I don't see why it is a stretch to apply meaning to the moment since it is the student taking up the teacher's sword, much like how Rey taking Luke's sword is the sign that she is the new hero and the one to continue fighting evil. And Obi-Wan is willing to argue with the council, something he chastised his own master for at the beginning. Is he ready to train the messiah? No. But that's on the council, not him. Anakin needed training or the Jedi needed to come up with an alternative.

I disagree. It has been a while since I watched the film but I recall a polite lad who had a bit of jealousy, was a little bit whiny, but ultimately a good kid with respect for his master both by honoring his final request and by wanting him to stay on the good side of the council. Won't win character of the year but he's perfectly serviceable. Though it has again been a while.

Originally posted by Astner
To spice this up a bit I'll outline a few questions to spark interest, you don't have to address all or any of them if you don't want to.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

I always thought QGJ & Padme were the protags and not Obi-Wan, so I'll give it to Rey.

Finn.

Poe was more entertaining, Anakin was deeper.

Maul, all day err day. He was menacing, badass, iconic, and original. A worthy SW villain.

A tie. Obviously there's more emotional investment in Han, but TFA did not do justice to the character beyond Harrison Ford being Harrison Ford. The unspoken reboot of the character and the telegraphed death helped Han go out with a whimper rather than a bang.

Amidala.

R2.

They're about even for me. TFA was more entertaining than TPM, but I've only seen TFA once. TPM mostly puts me to sleep now, but I've seen it so many times in the past 16 years that it's hard to compare.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Astner hates TFA, that is why
Everyone was already comparing the movies, I just made the thread for it.

Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Obi-Wan wasn't the main character, but I still prefer him over Rey. He had a dudebro, arrogant kid attitude about him that I liked. Rey honestly I found to be boring.

Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

Lulz. I think I'll ignore this troll question.

Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Poe. Oscar Isaac is a good looking, charming dude. Jake Lloyd was meh.

Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Honestly, it's hard to say. Kylo as a character is definitely more interesting to watch on the screen, but if you go back and read about Darth Maul's history, what Palpatine put him through and how Maul was brainwashed and basically had no choice in becoming the monster that he was, Maul becomes a lot more nuanced and sympathetic. Push.

Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Hard to say at this point. I have a feeling sadly that Han's death won't mean very much to the characters in the long run. It certainly wasn't presented that way, and it didn't have the oomph that Qui-Gon's death did.

Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

Amidala...I guess? She's a terrible character, but Leia barely even had a character presence in TFA.

R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

Artoo of course. BB-8 was fun and cute, but Artoo is my man.

Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

The Phantom Menace is easily the worst of the prequel movies and is the most expendable story plot wise. The Force Awakens was a badly written rehash, basically J.J Abram's fanfiction put onto screen. I can't say that I really liked either one, but at least TPM had that awesome lightsaber fight. The lightsaber fights in TFA aren't bad though. I liked how raw and ferocious they were, and I guess Kylo stopping that blaster bolt in mid air was cool. Still, doesn't beat that Maul fight.

Eh while I don't like Rey as a character I think it is a mistake to call her a ***** Astner. If she were she wouldn't have helped BB-8 and Finn. She's a nice girl.

Originally posted by Astner
Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Any Obi >>>> Rey. Though Obi was hardly the protagonist of TPM.

Originally posted by Astner
Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

Both were good and enjoyable. Jar-Jar has more cringe worthy moments though.

Originally posted by Astner
Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Anakin.

Originally posted by Astner
Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Kylo took too much screen time for little gain. Darth Maul was barely there but pound by pound had more impact. His saber was better.

Neither is Dooku level though.

Originally posted by Astner
Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Astner
Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

Amidala.

Originally posted by Astner
R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

None, I don't like them droids.

Originally posted by Astner
Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

TPM had a better plot.

Originally posted by Bentley
Both were good and enjoyable.

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-08/24/19/enhanced/webdr08/anigif_enhanced-buzz-19134-1408923825-6.gif

I personally found the droids comment more shocking. Also it is hard for any villain to be as cool as Christopher Lee Bentley so that is hardly fair.

Dooku was kind of lame though, imo. Being Christopher Lee doesn't make you a compelling character.

Of course not. It just basically makes you the best thing in any movie period. It's sort of a universal truth, like blue and yellow making green. I don't make the rules Neph, I just follow 'em.

Pfft, yeah and Sam Jackson is always a badass. Oh wait. Lee wasn't given a chance to impress or emote. Also he just didn't do a very good performance imo.

The opportunity to emote is insignificant next to the power of Christopher Lee.

What I get from what Neph just said is that the movie needed more Dooku

TPM had no antagonists, no arcs. In fact it never had much of a plot. Not IN the movie, that is to say.

I still don't get the plans of Sidious and the TF: what was the blockade supposed to do, what was the non-described treaty supposed to do? How were the blockade and the treaty supposed to help Palpy rise to power? If Padem was so important to have alive, to sign the treaty, why do they send her off to a camp to be 'processed"? (and what does that mean anyway?) Why did the Chancellor just not believe the Jedi about the invasion and bring that in in the Senate? Or Padme for that matter? If Jedi were so totally unimportant in the Old Republic, why are these movies so focussed on them?

Everything that is supposed to look like a plot is hidden in a deep well of mud. "The Dark Side clouds everything"... Yoda was, right, it even clouds what these movies are about.

The notion that TPM "had no antagonists" is factually wrong. Whether or not you think they're up to snuff is another matter, but they were there.

Again, did anyone actually watch the movie before you were told not to like it?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Of course not. It just basically makes you the best thing in any movie period. It's sort of a universal truth, like blue and yellow making green. I don't make the rules Neph, I just follow 'em.

You please me. Not sure why Dooku wasn't compelling enough for Neph, he ticks a lot of the Kreia boxes: he's a former Jedi turned Sith; he speaks dramatically in an ominous voice; he attempts to present himself to other characters as a trustworthy figure despite a fairly menacing presence; he's not, in AOTC at least, a blatant sadist or exceptionally cruel and seems almost disappointed to kill so many former friends....

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I always thought QGJ & Padme were the protags and not Obi-Wan, so I'll give it to Rey.




Agreed. Apart from the very end Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's sidekick for the majority of that movie.

Having said that, Obi-Wan's the one whose character grew/changed by the end of the film.


Originally posted by The_Tempest


Again, did anyone actually watch the movie before you were told not to like it?

Tempest is right that TPM has antagonists, but by the very nature of "The Phantom Menace" they lack presence. Sidious is kept in shadow and isn't allowed to show much of anything, Maul is a near-mute and the Trade Federation heads are a racist punchline.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The notion that TPM "had no antagonists" is factually wrong. Whether or not you think they're up to snuff is another matter, but they were there.

Again, did anyone actually watch the movie before you were told not to like it?

Sorry, I meant to write "PROTAGONISTS."

But even the antagonists are rather absent. Yes, it's Sidious and the TF on strings. But since we never really get an idea what they're trying to achieve, what they're up to, they don't even make sense as antagonists.

It's basically 'much ado about something'.

Originally posted by Astner
Everyone was already comparing the movies, I just made the thread for it.

You did make a good thread, even if many posters consider it an outrage to compare the two movies.

Well, why? They're both MOVIES, they're both SW MOVIES. Why not compare them? We rank the movies, don't we? By doing so we compare them.

Originally posted by Astner
Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Rey. Like others said, Obi-Wan wasn't much of a protagonist in TPM.

Originally posted by Astner
Jar-Jar Binks vs Finn: Who did you find more enjoyable?

Finn. Not fair to compare the two, Jar-Jar was pure comic relief, Finn was a mix.

Originally posted by Astner
Anakin (TPM) vs Poe: As far as piloting was concerned, which of these two characters did you prefer?

Poe, easily.

Originally posted by Astner
Darth Maul vs Kylo Ren: Who did you find more interesting and why? What about their new lightsaber designs, which did you prefer?

Darth Maul. The silent badass type really worked in TPM. I prefer the lightstaff, can't get used to the crossguard saber.

Originally posted by Astner
Qui-Gon Jinn vs Han Solo (TFA): Who's death had the greater impact?

Qui-Gon Jinn's. Much better scene, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Astner
Queen Amidala vs General Leia (TFA): Who seemed to have the greater impact on their respective story?

Someone made a good comparison, that Leia was more like Mon Mothma in TFA... so it's unfair to compare the two. Padme.

Originally posted by Astner
R2D2 (TPM) vs BB-8: Which droid did you prefer?

BB-8, hilarious.

Originally posted by Astner
Story vs Story: How do you compare the two, which did you prefer?

Even though TFA is like a remake of ANH, I enjoyed its story more.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You did make a good thread, even if many posters consider it an outrage to compare the two movies.



Oh they certainly should be compared. Both brought back Star Wars to a new generation. Both were Huge events with merchandise sold everywhere. Both were extremely financially successful but received mixed reactions from fans receiving a lot of love and a lot of hate.

TFA is certainly not receiving "a lot of hate".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You did make a good thread, even if many posters consider it an outrage to compare the two movies. Just opinion based which people shouldn't go crazy if someone disagrees.

Originally posted by ares834
TFA is certainly not receiving "a lot of hate".


Enough for Abrams to address it.

A common criticism=/=hate

Originally posted by ares834
A common criticism=/=hate
So Darth Thor is a common critic?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest is right

👍

Too bad it was just a misspelling. I agree with queeq that the status of the protagonists was pretty nebulous and ill-conceived.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Enough for Abrams to address it.

Well, SW is always under the microscope.

This entire thread has lead up to this clip right here:

Tl-J1dNOE4U

Originally posted by ares834
A common criticism=/=hate


Fair enough. Even I don't Hate it. Just have some major complaints about it. And I'm still really looking forward to Ep.8 & Ep.9.

I think a fairer comment would be many people had big "criticisms" or were "disappointed" by it. Whereas with TPM many people actually hated it.


Originally posted by queeq
Well, SW is always under the microscope.


True Say. Star Wars brings out extreme reactions one way or the other.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Fair enough. Even I don't Hate it. Just have some major complaints about it. And I'm still really looking forward to Ep.8 & Ep.9.

I think a fairer comment would be many people had big "criticisms" or were "disappointed" by it. Whereas with TPM many people actually hated it.





True Say. Star Wars brings out extreme reactions one way or the other. You seem to argue crazily whenever someone enjoys it or says so.

Part of the SW debating fun.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
True Say. Star Wars brings out extreme reactions one way or the other.

I can't say I hated prequels.

I loved the OT, too bad it's so short - there are some deleted scenes that really should've made it into the final product. Biggs, for example, had a great scene with Luke and a great one-shot comic.

I dunno... the acting in the scene with Luke and Biggs on Tatooine wasn't great.

The Force Awakens wins for all of those!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I can't say I hated prequels.

I loved the OT, too bad it's so short - there are some deleted scenes that really should've made it into the final product. Biggs, for example, had a great scene with Luke and a great one-shot comic. Rots is awesome.

Erm.. no, not really.

Originally posted by queeq
Erm.. no, not really. Yes, really. Accept it.

No... Because it's not.

Originally posted by queeq
No... Because it's not. Iyo not mine. It's like arguing which color is cooler. It's all subjective.

Except your opinion doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Except your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion is the only thing that matters.

Originally posted by Astner
Obi-Wan vs Rey: Who did you prefer as the protagonist of the story and why?

Ewan played a magnificent Obi-Wan; even if he wasn't developed much in TPM, he was still really cool. Daisy Ridley played her part well enough, and her character had a lot more development, but Rey isn't exactly a fresh or particularly interesting character; just a recycled female heroine role. Which is fine, but hardly a match for the iconic nostalgia that comes with a good Obi-Wan Kenobi portrayal.



Finn, hands down. I see no point in even explaining; you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise. He's both more story-relevant and comedically relieving; fact. Like Jar Jar, though, he was a bit much at times.



What? Poe's the man, man; Again, no need to even elaborate.



Both were pretty flat and uninspiring, but I liked both of their lightsaber designs and fighting styles. I'll give it to Kylo because he didn't die in the first film.



Uh, Han, man. He's an iconic character who already has a trilogy of character development, and he got killed by his own son. Like, damn.

This is one fight Qui-Gon can't win by virtue of being Liam Neeson; because Han is Harrison Ford.



Both were toast, but Portman is hot, going with her.



BB-8 really stole the show with TFA. Even though R2 is an iconic character, his appearance in TPM was lackluster; I'm sorry to say this is no competition.



Neither were particularly good. TFA is a copy paste, and it gives off some cheap fanfilm vibes, but it's got heart and was a lot of fun. TPM at least brought some new things to the table, but it was badly executed and bland as toast. Pick your poison, I guess.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Iyo not mine. It's like arguing which color is cooler. It's all subjective.

Actually, I think I agreed extensively why the PT doesn't work well. It's not JUST taste or OPINION.

And NewGuy points out some key problems... AGAIN: NO character development in the PT... Or maybe I should say: no characters. Just cardboard figures that do stuff because the script requires them to.

^ NewGuy also said Ewan was "Magnificent" as Obi-Wan.

Of course it's Opinion. Your "breakdown" is just that. YOUR breakdown. I and others have broken down our "problems" with TFA. Doesn't make our issues "factual" problems.

I loved Obi-Wan, Yoda, Palpatine, Darth Maul and Count Dooku as characters in the Prequel Trilogy.

I also really enjoyed Anakin's story arc in ROTS and liked Padme as the Queen in TPM, but her love story dented the character as the trilogy went on IMO. If we were to include TCW then I love those 2 characters and the ones listed above much more so.

Originally posted by queeq
Actually, I think I agreed extensively why the PT doesn't work well. It's not JUST taste or OPINION.

And NewGuy points out some key problems... AGAIN: NO character development in the PT... Or maybe I should say: no characters. Just cardboard figures that do stuff because the script requires them to. It is opinion based and DDM systematically broke you down. Just let it go. You hate the prequels. The funny part is the ot's weren't masterpieces either IMO. You have an opinion and the problem is you honestly believe you speak for others. You don't. Arguing over which color you like and being serious about it is weird.

None of the Star Wars movies are "master pieces" tbh. A lot of people just have the thickest of thick rosey colored nostalgia goggles when viewing the OT. IMO both the OT and PT had their merits, and downsides.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
None of the Star Wars movies are "master pieces" tbh. A lot of people just have the thickest of thick rosey colored nostalgia goggles when viewing the OT. IMO both the OT and PT had their merits, and downsides.

I do really, really like rots but I agree that none were masterpieces and without flaws.

I dunno. ESB comes very close.

And can someone tell me what "arc" they think Anakin has in ROTS? How is he different at the end than at the beginning? He's angry man wanting more power at the beginning, and at the end he is still that. I say: NO ARC!

In what way is he different then? I don't see it. The only difference is that he has yellow eyes and is called Darth.

I keep saying this: adult Anakin is an angry, arrogant, self-serving, power-hungry murderer of men, women and children in AOTC. And he still is at the end of ROTS. What is the bloody character arc here? And place has nothing to do with it...

Beginning: His fate will be the same as ours.

End: If you're not with me then you're my enemy.

Ta-da.

ESB is good, but I'd hardly call it a master piece. It has it's issues.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
ESB is good, but I'd hardly call it a master piece. It has it's issues.

Every film has issues. If your requirement for a film to be a masterpiece is it must be perfect, then no film will be a masterpiece.

Gangs of New York is a master piece, Apocalypse Now is a master piece. ESB is a good sci fi movie.

ESB is better than either of those though. But Apocalypse Now is a masterpiece as well.

ESB has nothing on either of those. Bill the Butcher is probably the best character in cinema history.

Originally posted by queeq
I dunno. ESB comes very close.

And can someone tell me what "arc" they think Anakin has in ROTS? How is he different at the end than at the beginning? He's angry man wanting more power at the beginning, and at the end he is still that. I say: NO ARC! This has been exp,aimed to you so many times and just because you don't acknowledge it that doesn't mean it wasn't in the movie.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn


ESB has nothing on either of those. Bill the Butcher is probably the best character in cinema history. Bill the Butcher is great but again this is subjective and it's impossible to argue.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Gangs of New York is a master piece, Apocalypse Now is a master piece. ESB is a good sci fi movie.

GoNY is an underrated movie

Originally posted by Robtard
GoNY is an underrated movie You are saying that after my Bill the Butcher sig. You're such a Quan fanboy.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn


ESB has nothing on either of those. Bill the Butcher is probably the best character in cinema history.

Maybe, but the OTHER characters are pretty fast in Gangs... And it's a long movie and Bill cannot hold it up alone.

Good movie, but hardly a masterpiece. It's no Goodfellas, Taxi Driver or Wolf of Wall Street.


Originally posted by quanchi112
This has been exp,aimed to you so many times and just because you don't acknowledge it that doesn't mean it wasn't in the movie.

It is NOT explained. His character doesn't change!

To say he resists his character first and then at the end he doesn't resist it anymore (see Ares834) means: his character doesn't change, only a little bit of behaviour changes i.e. the resisting bit. But he kills men, women and children before he gives up his resistance and justifies himself (tuskens) and he does the same after the fall (jedi, younglings, Padme). So in TWO movies we get a little itsiebitsie bit of character change.... too flimsy for a genuine arc.

Han Solo has a bigger arc as supporting character in ANH.

^ Of course he frigging changed.

If killing Tusken men and children was the same as killing human men and children, then I doubt Padme would have married Ani after that. Remember when he kills Jedi children she can't believe it, and rejects him when he admits it.

So Tuskens are obviously closer to animals than to humans.

Ergo Anakin wasn't flat out evil until his character arc went there in ROTS. Prior to that we saw him willing to risk his life to save his friends, and even clones. Dark Side Anakin/Vader wouldn't do that. He would kill his friends, and kill any trooper that displeased him.

Originally posted by queeq
Maybe, but the OTHER characters are pretty fast in Gangs... And it's a long movie and Bill cannot hold it up alone.

Good movie, but hardly a masterpiece. It's no Goodfellas, Taxi Driver or Wolf of Wall Street.




It is NOT explained. His character doesn't change!

To say he resists his character first and then at the end he doesn't resist it anymore (see Ares834) means: his character doesn't change, only a little bit of behaviour changes i.e. the resisting bit. But he kills men, women and children before he gives up his resistance and justifies himself (tuskens) and he does the same after the fall (jedi, younglings, Padme). So in TWO movies we get a little itsiebitsie bit of character change.... too flimsy for a genuine arc.

Han Solo has a bigger arc as supporting character in ANH. He did change. It was obvious to everyone and has been explained to you. If you think him becoming a Sith Lord obsessed with power was the same as when the film began then I can't help you. He was a Jedi arguing with Palpatine in the beginning and he was his compliant servant by the films end. He kills men, women, and children who were there when his mother died. He didn't attack the Jedi who he fought along side. In the beginning of the film he wouldn't leave Kenobi behind when Palpatine said to but by the films end he was trying to kill him. Just stop with this nonsensical theory he didn't change at all by the films end. It's silly and you just hate the prequels. That's fine but don't try to pass your opinion which isn't a fact.

Iyo not mine.

Err... Han Solo started out as a pirate that shot first, went for money only and changed into someone with a small but warm heart.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If killing Tusken men and children was the same as killing human men and children, then I doubt Padme would have married Ani after that. Remember when he kills Jedi children she can't believe it, and rejects him when he admits it.

Does she? IN the movie I saw, she DOES marry him!!!!! All he did in between that psycho scene and the marriage is screw up: he screwed up the rescue and he screwed up his fight with Dooku. He didn't do anything that she would have fallen in love for. His only moment of vulnerability was in that garage. Darth Psycho revealing himself.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So Tuskens are obviously closer to animals than to humans.

That's a judgement call on your account. From a Jedi perspective the Force is an energy field created by ALL living things. ALL live is precious, tuskens and humans alike. We even hear QGJ shout "Anakin! NOOOOO!" from the netherworld. Clearly that was a very very NO GO area from a Jedi perspective. Killing is killing...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ergo Anakin wasn't flat out evil until his character arc went there in ROTS. Prior to that we saw him willing to risk his life to save his friends, and even clones. Dark Side Anakin/Vader wouldn't do that. He would kill his friends, and kill any trooper that displeased him.

Well, I disagree. All I see Anakin do is stuff he THINKS he should do, for himself. That the flat out evil isn't visible to anyone is not an argument. I don't see any visible evil in Palpatine until he reveals himself to Anakin... or not even then. He just SAYS he's evil, we SEE him as evil when he attacks Mace and his slow buddies. Yet, we all agree that Palpy was evil at the beginning of TPM, and even before that.

And the saving of the clone is one of the weirdest thing ever... the first time he sees clones (in AOTC) he doesn't care if they get wiped out by the dozens. And anywhere else clones are clearly considered disposable. And then... on a very important mission (saving the CHANCELLOR, head of the ENTIRE Republic) he decides to save one measly clone... Total inconsistent writing crap... makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He did change. It was obvious to everyone and has been explained to you. If you think him becoming a Sith Lord obsessed with power was the same as when the film began then I can't help you.

To counter your argument, I will simply quote Anakin himself from AOTC responding to Padme's question (You're not all powerful):"I should be, some day I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever!"
And then he starts blaming OB1 in exactly the same way he did at the beginning of AOTC, saying that OB1 is holding him back. Which tells me: he already felt this way, that is why he was complaining to Padme... But now he's angry... he doesn't control his anger, he acts on it and feels no guilt. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Anakin went down that path some time between TPM and AOTC. All we see is that his evil is cloaked by some form of taught goodness (maybe he doesn't realise it himself, and is that his arc, but even then... the realisation of evil doesn't do much for him either... he just blames OB1 again).

This guy in the garage is clearly an unstable, power hungry murdering psychopath i.e. Darth Vader. Except Vader was much more controlled in the OT.

So, there. There is no real, significant change... and if there is some minor change, it's only in appearance and in any way, way too small for two movies.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just stop with this nonsensical theory he didn't change at all by the films end. It's silly and you just hate the prequels. That's fine but don't try to pass your opinion which isn't a fact.


The reason I dislike the PT is BECAUSE there is no arc to any of these characters, because despite all the flashy CGI, these movies are pretty dull, with inconsistent storylines and shallow characters that have no arc.

Why do YOU think the PT movies are liked the least of all the SW movies. If we go by IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes... And that's quite a lot of movie loving folk!

You see he had a lot of immaturity and flaws that there was a clear difference as I already pointed it out. We see his selflessness by waiting for Obi instead of worrying about saving himself to the end of the film speculating on overthrowing Palpatine and trying to kill Kenobi. You didn't like the a character arc but it was there despite your opinion.

It was minute. Most of his so called 'selflessness' was talked about.

'Waiting for OB1' is selflessness??? Wow... some major act of selflessness...

And yes, I didn't like his character. I think he's one of the worst SW characters ever designed. He's not well written. And in paraphrasing Anakin himself: "He should be. He should have been the greatest SW character ever." And he's not. Unfortunately.

Originally posted by queeq
It was minute. Most of his so called 'selflessness' was talked about.

'Waiting for OB1' is selflessness??? Wow... some major act of selflessness...

And yes, I didn't like his character. I think he's one of the worst SW characters ever designed. He's not well written. And in paraphrasing Anakin himself: "He should be. He should have been the greatest SW character ever." And he's not. Unfortunately. So you admit that was selflessness which was completely different to how the film ended up. I agree Hayden was awful in the display of acting we witnessed but he did have an arc. I really, really enjoyed Rots but it was far from perfect but most movies are. I enjoyed it and to me it's that simple when watching a movie. Very high rewatch ability factor.

Well no. I don't see a selfless Anakin in AOTC or ROTS. I saw a selfless Anakin in TPM, but he was a completely different character when we meet him in AOTC.

The whole conversation in the elevator with OB1, his arrogant and impudent behaviour in the convo with Padme, his talk with OB1 where he makes himself more important to OB1, his whining about OB1 with Padme in her bedroom... all I see is an arrogant, selfish brat. They few minute moment that could be interpreted as selflessness pale in comparison to there scenes.

An I also disagree that Hayden was awful, he had awful material to work with (i.e. no character arc, lousy line, green screen and only Lucas to tell him how to say his lines). Maybe he isn't one of those great actors that can make cupcakes out of turds, like Ewan finally managed in ROTS. Took him two movies though...

Originally posted by queeq
Well no. I don't see a selfless Anakin in AOTC or ROTS. I saw a selfless Anakin in TPM, but he was a completely different character when we meet him in AOTC.

The whole conversation in the elevator with OB1, his arrogant and impudent behaviour in the convo with Padme, his talk with OB1 where he makes himself more important to OB1, his whining about OB1 with Padme in her bedroom... all I see is an arrogant, selfish brat. They few minute moment that could be interpreted as selflessness pale in comparison to there scenes.

An I also disagree that Hayden was awful, he had awful material to work with (i.e. no character arc, lousy line, green screen and only Lucas to tell him how to say his lines). Maybe he isn't one of those great actors that can make cupcakes out of turds, like Ewan finally managed in ROTS. Took him two movies though... We see he's an immature kid dealing with issues for three films. He's arrogant and someone they should be worried about and finally goes fully dark side by the end which is different than the cocky, bratty Jedi.

And the ARE worried about him. All the time... and no one does anything about it, except continue to train him, send him on mission while they doubt his abilities... To me 'going fully dark side' is just a formality. After all: once you go down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny. Hence my view: Anakin went dark sometime between TPM and AOTC. The "fall" was just a formal job offer, nothing more. And exterior thing, not an interior thing. Ergo, no character arc.

Originally posted by queeq
And the ARE worried about him. All the time... and no one does anything about it, except continue to train him, send him on mission while they doubt his abilities... To me 'going fully dark side' is just a formality. After all: once you go down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny. Hence my view: Anakin went dark sometime between TPM and AOTC. The "fall" was just a formal job offer, nothing more. And exterior thing, not an interior thing. Ergo, no character arc. He went full dark side and became a Sith Lord which was different than an arrogant Jedi. We saw how differently he became by the films end. There is an arc there despite your denial to acknowledge it. Just your opinion which isn't a fact.

If there is an arc it's minute. There is not much difference between angry Anakin in the Tatooine garage and the angry Anakin that chokes Padme on Mustafar. In fact, there is NO difference.

The only difference is, as you point out, the label you give him:

young, arrogant Jedi filled with anger that kills men, women and children
Sith Lord filled with anger that kills men women and children.

So again: where is the arc you keep talking about? His behaviour is the same and behaviour in a movie shows what someone is about. Anakin's behaviour doesn't change, ergo, neither does his character.

ANH Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.
RotJ Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.

No arc!!!

Anakin giving fully into his darkness is just as much an arc as Luke's rejection of it.

You guys are really beating a dead horse here...

Originally posted by ares834
ANH Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.
RotJ Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.

No arc!!!

Anakin giving fully into his darkness is just as much an arc as Luke's rejection of it.


Exactly

What are you talking about guys? There is no difference between killing a bunch of aliens who have never been nice to humans(and killed a woman for no reason) and killing the woman you love because you suspect her of betraying you. You silly geese.

^ And murdering Jedi kids who were looking to him for protection.

I'm sure that's the same as killing Sandpeople, who we've never seen do anything good. Like ever.

Originally posted by queeq
If there is an arc it's minute. There is not much difference between angry Anakin in the Tatooine garage and the angry Anakin that chokes Padme on Mustafar. In fact, there is NO difference.

The only difference is, as you point out, the label you give him:

young, arrogant Jedi filled with anger that kills men, women and children
Sith Lord filled with anger that kills men women and children.

So again: where is the arc you keep talking about? His behaviour is the same and behaviour in a movie shows what someone is about. Anakin's behaviour doesn't change, ergo, neither does his character. Originally posted by ares834
ANH Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.
RotJ Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.

No arc!!!

Anakin giving fully into his darkness is just as much an arc as Luke's rejection of it. It is easy to turn your own weird logic on you. I have explained this is all your opinion. Let it go. Your perspective isn't a fact. I have told you the differences and you'll once again repeat yourself. Let it go.

Queeq getting stomped tbh. Ares is a pretty ardent critic of the PT, so it says a lot when even he persistently calls you out.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
What are you talking about guys? There is no difference between killing a bunch of aliens who have never been nice to humans(and killed a woman for no reason) and killing the woman you love because you suspect her of betraying you. You silly geese.

Anakin didn't kill Padme though. He just strangled her while she was pregnant.

Originally posted by ares834
ANH Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.
RotJ Luke = Heroic character who kills bad guys.

No arc!!!

Anakin giving fully into his darkness is just as much an arc as Luke's rejection of it.

Okay, that kinda slams the door. If you can't see the arc of Luke in the OT, then this debate is over. The ANH Luke is very different from the ROTJ Luke. Fighting aliens is not ALL he does. Being angry, whiney, blaming and kill is ALL Anakin does, from te beginning of AOTC till the end of ROTS.

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

I feel like you're missing his point.

I don't.

He thinks it's only about Anakin's killing. But it's not. It's about his character (that whines, complains, is angry and kills because of it). His behaviour and his attitude don't change. Luke's behaviour and attitude DOES change. Ergo, he has an arc.

Just putting on yellow contacts and change one's name into 'Darth' is no character change. Just a different suit. Luke's clothes change: from virgin white, to maturing brown to adult black. But... it ILLUSTRATES his inner change. from whiny kid to mature Jedi who refuses to fight his father.
Adult Anakin is always dressed in black (see how dark he is) and he is like that until the end. It too illustrates that his character doesn't change. Which it doesn't.

So yeah you're missing his point.

I'm not, I'm disagreeing with it. I think Ares' and quanchiy's opinions are unsubstantiated.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I feel like you're missing his point.

Fine. Changing one's clothes and putting in yellow contacts is character change now... wha-evah!

Originally posted by queeq
If you can't see the arc of Luke in the OT, then this debate is over.



Of course he can see it. His point is if you just look at who they're fighting and killing, then by that argument Luke also has no Arc.



Originally posted by queeq
I don't.

He thinks it's only about Anakin's killing. But it's not. It's about his character (that whines, complains, is angry and kills because of it). His behaviour and his attitude don't change. Luke's behaviour and attitude DOES change. Ergo, he has an arc.




He clearly changed from AOTC to ROTS.

He was the whiny apprentice in AOTC. He wasn't so whiny in ROTS, until Palpatine starting manipulating him towards the dark side.

But the start of ROTS is clearly a matured Anakin, and one whose his own man, and not somebody's child they have to put into place. He wants to stop the mission to go save some Clones. He ignores Palpatine regarding saving Kenobi saying "His Fate will be the same as Ours."

Heck later he explains to Palpatine how The Sith are Selfish, and the Jedi Selfless.


And he again has an Arc from the matured Knight at the beginning of ROTS, to an evil Sith himself.


And this mind you is just counting AOTC and ROTS. Whereas you're looking at Luke's Arc over 3 movies.

If you count TPM and ANH, then of course Anakin has Massively changed over those 3/4 films. Massively.

I don't count TPM because child Anakin is a completely different character from adult Anakin, to such an extent that they are two completely different people. And we never learn what made adult Anakin such a power hungry murderer in AOTC, blaming everyone for the things that didn't go the way he wants (again: exactly the same behaviour he is showing on Mustafa). If there is a considerable arc, it's somewhere between these two movies.

Originally posted by queeq
Fine. Changing one's clothes and putting in yellow contacts is character change now... wha-evah! You not acknowledging a pretty clear difference in attitude doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Where is it then?

All you say is: he went from arrogant Jedi to full Sith Lord. I say: true, but he's behaviour and attitude is exactly the same (compare Tatooine garage scene to the Mustafar confrontation with Padme and OB1).

That's a silly comparison though, because in the Tatooine Garage scene he was mourning the loss of his Mother, and regretting he couldn't save her. On Mustafar he was just lashing out at everyone he loves for absolutely no reason. Hows that the same exactly?

And again, you're ignoring his growth from Whiny Padawan in AOTC to the Knight and hero of the Republic he was at the start of ROTS.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a silly comparison though, because in the Tatooine Garage scene he was mourning the loss of his Mother, and regretting he couldn't save her. On Mustafar he was just lashing out at everyone he loves for absolutely no reason. Hows that the same exactly?

It is not the only scene in AOTC that displays Anakin's behaviour.

In his second scene we see him in (meeting with Padme) he shows no respect for OB1, acts like a total pr!ck and thinks he knows best. He only thinks from his own desires. Quite Sithian already (or adolescent, but in Anakin's case that's basically the same in both movies).

When Padme is packing he's already displaying a very clear overconfidence in himself that he is a very great Jedi and that OB1 is overly critical. Ergo: who is OB1 to show him his place? Because, oh yes, he is so powerful that he has passed OB1's skills already!

Another remark by Anakin is that he thinks he is better at lightsaber fighting than Yoda. Clearly he indulges in his own power, which he likes very much.

After he leaves with Padme for Naboo, he almost turns into a normal person. I will disregard the horrible love scenes, that demonstrate what a manipulative psycho he is. After his nightmare he completely disregards any command he has been given, he acts solely on his own desires. Just like a Sith. No control!

And only after these scenes we get the garage scene. To me, his rage and anger make him drop the last little bit of restraint he has in his arrogance. He speaks from his heart here but it's very much in line with everything he's said or done (and will say or do - so that proves he really believes what he says... he proves it on Mustafar: different location, same kind of anger, same words). In the garage he lashes out (verbally, at this moment) at everyone: all the Tuskens and again OB1 (who basically symbolises all the Jedi).

(oh quanchi: the scenes I am describing are all factual, BTW)

After that he ignores even more commands and trusts his own insights/feelings/powers: going to Geonosis (admittedly Padme helps him do this, makes no sense, he ignores commands all the time, why wouldn't he now?), he gets caught and gets himself and Padme almost killed (which wouldn't have happened if he'd stayed put on Naboo).

And then he thinks he knows best again (because he thinks he's the greatest lightsaber fighter alive) and ignores OB1's strategy against Dooku, causing them to lose the entire fight. There you have it: a self-centred arrogant Jedi, who acts only on his own desires and causes more harm than good. (i.e. Darth Vader)

ROTS kinda repeats that whole routine, with the only difference that he is 'more powerful'. But character wise it's all identical.

Originally posted by queeq
Where is it then?

All you say is: he went from arrogant Jedi to full Sith Lord. I say: true, but he's behaviour and attitude is exactly the same (compare Tatooine garage scene to the Mustafar confrontation with Padme and OB1). He put his own life on the line to save Kenobi. At the end of the film he's trying to kill the same guy. You don't see the change ? Wtf. It can't be any clearer.

No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Het pretends he does, maybe he even believes his own lies, but Anakin, factually, only acts for himself. He disobeys just about every order he gets from OB1. And when it comes to saving OB1 from Geonosis, he suddenly decides to be an obedient little boy? Hmmm... what's the secret agenda here? And when Padme talks him out of it, THEN he's suddenly eager to go???? I see what he's doing. It's either to impress Padme or he thinks OB1 can't do without him and only HE can save him.

And that whole stupid thing of suddenly, out of the blue, trying to save ONE clone when they're on a crucial mission to save the Chancellor, proves his terrible lack of judgement, his disobedience because what he thinks is best and, again, his own self-serving arrogance. This is exactly what we see when he meets Padme at the beginning of AOTC.

You see change? Wtf. It can't be more absent.

Originally posted by queeq
No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Anakin only acts for himself. The whole stupid thing of trying to save ONE clone when they're on mission to save the Chancellor show his terrible lack of judgement and, again, his own self-serving arrogance.

You see change? Wtf. It can't be more absent. Going back and risking his life for Obi's is selflessness. He flat out told Palpatine his fate will be the same as ours. You're denying a fact to suit your silly I hate prequels agenda. Everyone but you sees change. Your denial is silly.

Originally posted by queeq
No, because his motivation is not on behalf of anyone else. Het pretends he does, maybe he even believes his own lies, but Anakin, factually, only acts for himself. He disobeys just about every order he gets from OB1. And when it comes to saving OB1 from Geonosis, he suddenly decides to be an obedient little boy? Hmmm... what's the secret agenda here? And when Padme talks him out of it, THEN he's suddenly eager to go???? I see what he's doing. It's either to impress Padme or he thinks OB1 can't do without him and only HE can save him.

Every single character in existence can look bad if you want them to. If you wanna say he only does good things because only he thinks he can help(because arrogance), why bother ignoring child Anakin who does the same thing? You can easily say he's trying to impress the Jedi/the cute girl/his mom.

You're reaching lol.

Originally posted by queeq
It is not the only scene in AOTC that displays Anakin's behaviour.

In his second scene we see him in (meeting with Padme) he shows no respect for OB1, acts like a total pr!ck and thinks he knows best. He only thinks from his own desires. Quite Sithian already (or adolescent, but in Anakin's case that's basically the same in both movies).

When Padme is packing he's already displaying a very clear overconfidence in himself that he is a very great Jedi and that OB1 is overly critical. Ergo: who is OB1 to show him his place? Because, oh yes, he is so powerful that he has passed OB1's skills already!

Another remark by Anakin is that he thinks he is better at lightsaber fighting than Yoda. Clearly he indulges in his own power, which he likes very much.

After he leaves with Padme for Naboo, he almost turns into a normal person. I will disregard the horrible love scenes, that demonstrate what a manipulative psycho he is. After his nightmare he completely disregards any command he has been given, he acts solely on his own desires. Just like a Sith. No control!

And only after these scenes we get the garage scene. To me, his rage and anger make him drop the last little bit of restraint he has in his arrogance. He speaks from his heart here but it's very much in line with everything he's said or done (and will say or do - so that proves he really believes what he says... he proves it on Mustafar: different location, same kind of anger, same words). In the garage he lashes out (verbally, at this moment) at everyone: all the Tuskens and again OB1 (who basically symbolises all the Jedi).

(oh quanchi: the scenes I am describing are all factual, BTW)

After that he ignores even more commands and trusts his own insights/feelings/powers: going to Geonosis (admittedly Padme helps him do this, makes no sense, he ignores commands all the time, why wouldn't he now?), he gets caught and gets himself and Padme almost killed (which wouldn't have happened if he'd stayed put on Naboo).

And then he thinks he knows best again (because he thinks he's the greatest lightsaber fighter alive) and ignores OB1's strategy against Dooku, causing them to lose the entire fight. There you have it: a self-centred arrogant Jedi, who acts only on his own desires and causes more harm than good. (i.e. Darth Vader)


Wow. Way to make a whiny teenager identical to a Murdering Sith Lord.





Originally posted by queeq
ROTS kinda repeats that whole routine, with the only difference that he is 'more powerful'. But character wise it's all identical.



No, he was clearly a much more matured person at the beginning of ROTS, before he started being seduced to the Dark Side by Palpatine.


Originally posted by AuraAngel
Every single character in existence can look bad if you want them to. If you wanna say he only does good things because only he thinks he can help(because arrogance), why bother ignoring child Anakin who does the same thing? You can easily say he's trying to impress the Jedi/the cute girl/his mom.

You're reaching lol.


ROTJ Luke was one Evil douche bag. Murdering all of Jabba's people (including the dancers) just to save his friend. So just for his own selfish reasons.


Luke also had no character arc from EBS to ROTJ. He ignored Yoda and Ben in ESB to go save Han and Luke. And he still ignored them in ROTJ when they told him he has to kill Vader. And still risked everything to recklessly go save one person.

No arc there at all. Exactly the same personality. No change clearly.

Sure... all I hear is: I don't agree with you.

Not a single argument is countered. And saying Luke has no arc just downright silly.

But enjoy Anakin, the greatest SW character ever designed!

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wow. Way to make a whiny teenager identical to a Murdering Sith Lord.

The whiny teenager was a murderer: he slaughtered an entire Tusken Village, the same way he slaughtered everyone in the Jedi Temple. If you want to disagree with me fine, but do watch the movies.

Originally posted by queeq
The whiny teenager was a murderer: he slaughtered an entire Tusken Village, the same way he slaughtered everyone in the Jedi Temple. If you want to disagree with me fine, but do watch the movies.

Why did he kill the Tusken? Why did he kill the Jedi?

You try to end this discussion by arguing actions but characters are about motivations. Your argument reeks bias

Anakin was a shitty character IMO as well but he had an arc you just want to ignore because he killed before as a teenager. Anakin changed but using the same logic only focusing on a small aspect one can make the case Luke didn't change either. No one believes it but they are dishing your own medicine back at you.

Ah no... I think it's quite clear that the whiny Luke of ANH is gone in ROTJ, where he is calm and mature.

Originally posted by Bentley
Why did he kill the Tusken? Why did he kill the Jedi?

You try to end this discussion by arguing actions but characters are about motivations. Your argument reeks bias

Whatever. In drama motivations are made clear THROUGH actions. That's how writing for drama and movies work. Because we can only FILM actions and not motivations. Unless filming someone telling us what his motivations are, but that is generally considered bad and lazy writing.

And Anakin's motivations are clear: he killed the Tusken because he was angry. Anger leads to the Dark Side.

And he killed the Jedi well, because he was ordered to do so by an angry man, whose anger he shared.

He choked Padme in anger, he fought OB1 in anger. Anakin's motivations are always anger. Yoda said so himself, when he talked about Luke: "Much anger in him (i.e. Luke), much like his father (i.e. Anakin". Except Luke learned to control his anger and his fear, Anakin did not.

Those Tusken Raiders had just killed his mother for absolutely no reason.

Those little Jedi Padawan had done nothing to him.

Crime of passion vs premeditated crimes.

It all comes down to anger, hate, revenge, to things that lead to the Dark Side. And Anakin is not 'just' a guy. He's a Jedi and he claims to be the greatest ever. And it's quite clear that killing Tusken is not the Jedi way to go. QGJ even shouts from the netherworld... So there you have Anakin: taught to control his anger and his fear and he doesn't control it. He chooses anger.

The fact that you defend a slaughter is kind of disturbing.

A crime of passion is uh...still a crime lol. And I find you're indifference to the murder of an innocent woman to be far more disturbing.

By the way, Anakin struggling with being a Jedi is the point. From episode I to III, we're supposed to see him fail. Luke gave into fear when he ignored his training to go save his friends and Yoda told him in no uncertain terms that that would cause him to become an agent of evil. That was a trial for Luke and he failed. What is important is that he didn't fail again.

Anakin after killing Windu is a way worse person than the Anakin in the garage. The Anakin in the garage would grow up, learn to love a person, be excited about being a father, cared about his master and his friends. There was still hope for him. Vader killed children without any sort of feasible reason, choked the woman he loved, pushed away his friends("Stay here R2" and tried to kill his mentor.

You cannot say actions define a character and then ignore so many of the actions because it suits what you want to be the case.

mm854yq38jY

Look at that evil mother ******.

So the guy has one minute of kindness. There is footage of Hitler playing with his dog on the terrace of his castle, having fun with friends and Eva Braun... that didn't make him less evil.

And I never showed any indifference to the murder of an innocent woman. I wasn't condoning the Tusken's actions. That is not even the question. The question is if a Jedi should use murder as a tool of revenge. Or use revenge at all. A Jedi does not, Anakin knew that. It's like the famous Spidermanquote: "With great power, comes great responsibility." And Anakin shows very little of that.

And it's mere semantics to discuss which sin is worse . As I pointed out, there is a pattern to Anakin's behaviour. It's in his character to be power hungry, self centred, angry. He shows it when they meet Padme in Coruscant, he does by leaving Naboo, by slaughtering Tuskens (I would argue that Tusken children are to be considered as innocent as the Jedi kids), by screwing up the fight with Dooku, by decapitating Dooku, by marrying Padme, by killing Mace, by slaughtering the Jedi in the temple etc etc... it's all the same thing.

At least TPM was an orgional story were as TFA was just a reboot of ANH.

FULL OF MARY SUE AND SWJ!!!!!

Originally posted by queeq
So the guy has one minute of kindness. There is footage of Hitler playing with his dog on the terrace of his castle, having fun with friends and Eva Braun... that didn't make him less evil.

And I never showed any indifference to the murder of an innocent woman. I wasn't condoning the Tusken's actions. That is not even the question. The question is if a Jedi should use murder as a tool of revenge. Or use revenge at all. A Jedi does not, Anakin knew that. It's like the famous Spidermanquote: "With great power, comes great responsibility." And Anakin shows very little of that.

And it's mere semantics to discuss which sin is worse . As I pointed out, there is a pattern to Anakin's behaviour. It's in his character to be power hungry, self centred, angry. He shows it when they meet Padme in Coruscant, he does by leaving Naboo, by slaughtering Tuskens (I would argue that Tusken children are to be considered as innocent as the Jedi kids), by screwing up the fight with Dooku, by decapitating Dooku, by marrying Padme, by killing Mace, by slaughtering the Jedi in the temple etc etc... it's all the same thing.



Okay. Forgetting the prequels entirely. Did Darth Vader get what he deserved in RotJ? Based solely on those 3 films, did he deserve what he got?

What is ironic here is that Anakin failed to the dark side by Rots but was redeemed in Rotj so there was no arc. he was Darth Vader in aotc to someone so rots didn't change a thing because he murdered Jedi in part two as well, right ?

Originally posted by queeq
Whatever. In drama motivations are made clear THROUGH actions. That's how writing for drama and movies work. Because we can only FILM actions and not motivations. Unless filming someone telling us what his motivations are, but that is generally considered bad and lazy writing.

At no point I've said the Prequels aren't lazy at establishing their motivations. They did establish motivations though and your mistrust and indiference to their methods don't erase that fact.


Originally posted by queeq
And Anakin's motivations are clear: he killed the Tusken because he was angry. Anger leads to the Dark Side.

Anger leads... Thanks to point out there is a progression to it, that's a character arc that was stated clearly and in the open several times


Originally posted by queeq
And he killed the Jedi well, because he was ordered to do so by an angry man, whose anger he shared..

When Anakin killed the tusken it wasn't under the promise of "fixing" things. It was an irrational act that he felt justified, from that feeling he started to build his secret reasons, but Anakin did not always believed Might made Right. Certainly not in AOTC.

Originally posted by Bentley
Anger leads... Thanks to point out there is a progression to it, that's a character arc that was stated clearly and in the open several times

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. My argument is that when we meet adult Anakin is that he is already angry. From here on he doesn't change, only his status from 'Jedi' to 'Sith'. But that's just his title. His character is the same.

Originally posted by Bentley
When Anakin killed the tusken it wasn't under the promise of "fixing" things. It was an irrational act that he felt justified, from that feeling he started to build his secret reasons, but Anakin did not always believed Might made Right. Certainly not in AOTC.

Whatever the rational reason, it was ANGER that drove him to do it. And the inability (or lack of will? we don't know) to control it.

If I understand you correctly, killing Tusken children was an irrational act and killing Jedi children was a rational one... and that then is the arc? He goes from irrational to rational? That kinda goes against the whole Sith principle, where Sith only rely on their passion for strength... not rationality. And that is exactly what adult Anakin does, from the beginning of AOTC until the end of ROTS.

Originally posted by queeq
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. My argument is that when we meet adult Anakin is that he is already angry. From here on he doesn't change, only his status from 'Jedi' to 'Sith'. But that's just his title. His character is the same.

Whatever the rational reason, it was ANGER that drove him to do it. And the inability (or lack of will? we don't know) to control it.

If I understand you correctly, killing Tusken children was an irrational act and killing Jedi children was a rational one... and that then is the arc? He goes from irrational to rational? That kinda goes against the whole Sith principle, where Sith only rely on their passion for strength... not rationality. And that is exactly what adult Anakin does, from the beginning of AOTC until the end of ROTS.

Anakin was always prone to anger, that's why he became a powerful Sith. Remember, the Sith embrace their feelings to become more powerful, it's a conscious decision from them. They are fueled by fury, they use it. Anakin wasn't focusing his anger against the Tusken for a particular task, he was just angry.

Sith are shown to be terribly rational and cunning, they will manipulate emotions and tempt others into doing their biding. They burn with personal passion, but they are cold towards others, they lack empathy. I wouldn't say rationality isn't an important part of the equation for Sith as a whole. To become a Sith you have to rationally incorporate desire into your logical beliefs, if he did not want power enough, there is no justification for Anakin to kill kids.

Originally posted by Bentley
Anakin was always prone to anger, that's why he became a powerful Sith. Remember, the Sith embrace their feelings to become more powerful, it's a conscious decision from them. They are fueled by fury, they use it. Anakin wasn't focusing his anger against the Tusken for a particular task, he was just angry.

So Anakin goes from unconsciously doing Sith things to doing them consciously...

That I can see, but still an extremely feeble arc.

The interesting thing is that if one designs a protagonist you always have to figure out his 'object of desire', what does he really want.

If I look at adult Anakin I can see only one major thing he wants: power! Or at least, to be the greatest Jedi ever. He wants to be great and important. Yet... there's not a single act that he performs that would help him increase his power. Except maybe submitting to Sidious's teachings, but right after that he hears that Sidious doesn't know how to achieve what Anakin wants and he still obediently goes along with it. Sidious doesn't really teach him anything. So nowhere do we see Anakin doing things to achieve the power he craves for. No wonder there's no arc... there's no effort is obtaining his object of desire.

Originally posted by queeq
So Anakin goes from unconsciously doing Sith things to doing them consciously...

That I can see, but still an extremely feeble arc.

He went from reacting to pulling power from selfish actions willingly.

I think part of the problem with Anakin's growth is that he is destined to become the evil sidekick, hardly a satisfying end point.


Originally posted by queeq
The interesting thing is that if one designs a protagonist you always have to figure out his 'object of desire', what does he really want.

If I look at adult Anakin I can see only one major thing he wants: power! Or at least, to be the greatest Jedi ever. He wants to be great and important. Yet... there's not a single act that he performs that would help him increase his power. Except maybe submitting to Sidious's teachings, but right after that he hears that Sidious doesn't know how to achieve what Anakin wants and he still obediently goes along with it. Sidious doesn't really teach him anything. So nowhere do we see Anakin doing things to achieve the power he craves for. No wonder there's no arc... there's no effort is obtaining his object of desire.

Anakin wanted to become a hero, one of the Jedi that had a destiny bigger than living in a forsaken planet as slaves, he pretty much wanted to become Luke. He saw Jedi saving people, fixing problems and decided that being the greatest hero was his goal. Through the first and second movie he still hasn't figured that his childish ambition implies that Might makes Right, that the heroes are relevant because they have power to change things.

Enter the Tusken massacre. Anakin's power failed to save his mother and could only avenge her death. It was a total defeat for his ideal, heros just can't save everyone. Still, Anakin figures that he can still do his best and prove that he can change things, so he sticks with the Jedi and fights the good battle for the sake of the Republic. When Anakin gave to his anger he should've abandoned the Jedi order, but he felt he was needed to win the war, he settled for the smaller evil. The fact that he considered himself necessary is still a part of his messiah syndrome.

Anakin wanted one thing from the beginning: to solve everything. Then he went to believe that to achieve so he needed to bring order to the galaxy. The "smaller evil" for his goal was to allow the Emperor to control everything.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
At least TPM was an orgional story were as TFA was just a reboot of ANH.

I still don't see how queeq can't tell the difference between his opinion and others disagreeing. Queeq your opinion is just your perspective so it will never be an objective fact. Hate Anakin's arc all you want but he did have an arc as multiple posters have tried to convey to you.

You haven't offered a single argument, all you say is that what I say is opinion. No one has shown what the arc was. I think the best I got was: in AOTC he was an arrogant Jedi and in ROTS he became a full blown Sith Lord.

The fact that he doesn't do things much differently seems to elude you.

But go and enjoy your beloved Anakin. You're entitled to.

We have explained what the arc was and why it wasn't what you claimed it was. You're just saying nuh uh at this point. At the beginning of the film Anakin risked his own life to save his friend but by the films end he felt Kenobi was his enemy. Becoming a Sith Lord is a huge character change. Was Anakin immature and arrogant; yes. Did he still want to be a hero; yes. Did he falter due to the circumstances of the film by being seduced by Palpatine; yes. Just evcause he was angry and immature doesn't mean he was some merciless Sith Lord just because he lashed out after his mothers death. Can't you see someone legitimately going nuts as a youth holding their own dying mother in their hands and that seriously traumatizing them ?

Does that make him a ruthless murderer ? Did that make him a Sith Lord on the spot ? Did he murder Jedi on the spot after he killed the sand people ?

Anakin is still immature when he pledges allegiance to Sidious:
1. First Sidious has to basically hold a banner to show he's a Sith, Anakin draws his lightsaber and does nothing
2. Then he turns him in, but claims the Jedi can't take him without him
3. He changes his mind, follows Mace (who he just sent over to Sidious) and cuts off his hands
4. Then he screams: "What have I done?"
5. He pleegden allegiance to Sidious to teach him to save Padme from death
6. Sidious says he can't do the one thing Anakin wants from him but still obeys his order to do what he has experience in: killing kids.

Whimsical, impulsive... NUTS. Nope, still no change. Not even from your list.